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shugyosha
22nd December 2001, 10:26
i just wonder if any kenjutsu ryu in the name of mitsurugi ryu have ever existed, and if the battosai existed too
hmmm it looks stupid maybe...

fifthchamber
22nd December 2001, 17:39
Hello Shugyo.
(P.S. You have to post your full name with your messages here..Part of the rules of the BBS.)
Wasn't Mitsurugi a character in Soul Blade? The Capcom game a couple of years back? Mitsurugi ryu is not a name that I have ever come across in my travels..Where did you hear of it? (Or was it off Soul Blade!!)
Batto in Japanese generally means the same thing as Iai (In Iaido) But with more emphasis on the one cut/one strike aspect (I know, I know..In depth it ain't) and Battosai may be a name..But I can't help you there either. (although the term is familiar..Ittosai maybe..Confused myself now!).
Sorry not to have been more help to you.
Abayo.

Ian Remi
22nd December 2001, 19:29
Well, there is a character from Soul Blade (PSX) and Soul Calibur (Dreamcast) by that name.

m a s a m u n e
22nd December 2001, 21:38
If you are talking about "Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu" from Rurouni Kenshin, then I am pretty sure that this is completely fictional. The creator of the series placed fictional characters in historical situations. Although some of the characters of that show are historical (i.e. Saito Hajime, Okita Soushi, Katsura Kogoro, Okubo Toshimichi, all of these related to the bakumatsu no doran, the character Himura Kenshin was derived from several historical MODELS, but was never real himself.

Hope that clears things up for you! Great show, but I doubt that hiten mitsurugi ryu ever existed.

- Alex Guillermo

shugyosha
24th December 2001, 12:31
yes it is hiten mitsurugi ryu, thanks for this precision, i kewn there were part of real historic character in kenshin but i wasnt sure.
for battosai
i think i got it now
if batto mean iai
and sai mean (whoops i forgoted the english word)
hmmm well sai can be the object where you put a sword to carry it :)
so battosai may mean a sword without sai, or out her sai.
in japanese traditional culture that mean a roaming soul without
place to rest.
sanjuro from kurosawa is a good example, but i read the subtitles at the time i saw it and i m not sure the expression used was "battosai"

jimi demi

fifthchamber
24th December 2001, 17:09
Hello again Shugyo.
After reading the reply you posted I am still unsure what you meant by 'Sai'..I think I am right in guessing that you mean the 'Saya' (In english..Scabbard)..The sword 'holder'? In which case I don't think it is used for the name 'Battosai'. Also since Japanese uses ideograph 'pictures' rather than words in writing it would be very difficult to work out the 'Sai' part without seeing the Kanji (Chinese letters) used to write it...Sai could mean many things in Japanese and there is no context to put it into to work the word out. Sorry about that....Although one fairly good one woud be 'Talent'..Making Battosai mean 'talented sword draw'.
A good site to use if you know what the characters look like is www.kanjisite.com ...It has a wide and fairly comprehensive list of the Kanji used in everyday speech
No real help at all..If you can remember where you saw the word maybe I could help you on what it means..Or if you can remember the character used to write it out.
Abayo.
P.S. I am guessing that Shugyo isn't your real name? Sorry but you do need to put that down..Instead of the screen name 'Shugyo'.

shugyosha
26th December 2001, 12:32
unfortunatly, as this expression "battosai" came from a movie,
i can not have the kanji. but talented sword seems a good traduction possible.
for my name i put it at the and of my replies. ;)

jimi demi

ghp
26th December 2001, 20:01
First, let me begin by saying I am not an expert in the Japanese language. Second, even Japanese can be puzzled by given names and art names. After finding the kanji for this name on one of the Kenshin fan sites (a hard labour since I am not fond of manga) ...

The bracked numbers below refer to the kanji in the old version of Nelson's Japanese-English Character Dictionary.

Batto [1854.2.2]= Drawing a sword, drawn sword (comprised of "batsu" Nelson 1854) and "tou" (sword).


Sai [5425] = 1. Buddhist food; 2. room; 3. (imi) religious purification; 4. (itsuku) worship; 5. (imu) avoid, refrain from, shun; 6. (toki) meals exchanged by parishoners and priests; 7. (hitoshii) equal, similar, like, equivalent.

"~sai" is possibly similar to Nelson's 5425.11 "itsuki-matsuri" (def #4) -- meaning to deify and worship.

Therefore, my conjecture is that the name Battousai means "to deify drawing the sword;" or "deify the drawn sword."

Cheers,
Guy

shugyosha
27th December 2001, 10:45
thank you very much :)

Kenshin7879
7th February 2003, 08:00
on the dvd the creator explained that sai meant master, best that sort of thing. and since battou means to draw the sword then it means master of drawing the sword. or ing kenshin's case as soon as he unsheathed his sword it meant sure death for his target

Soulend
7th February 2003, 10:49
I thought 'shi' was 'master'...

R A Sosnowski
7th February 2003, 14:51
Originally posted by Soulend
I thought 'shi' was 'master'...

Japanese is a syllable-poor language, that is, of all the syllables possible in speech, Japanese uses only a small subset.

Because of this, Japanese has an abundance of homonyms - words that sound the same but mean different things, like "to," "too" and "two" in English. For example, Zen can be translated as "meditation," "good" or "all," and Rei as "bow," "valley," "beautiful" or "bell" [these are short lists of possible meanings]. Of course the individual Kanji are all different.

Now we add another wrinkle. Each Kanji has two different pronunciations. Which one to use depends on how the word is used. For example, the stand-alone Kanji for the Japanese style long-bow is pronounced "yumi" and the stand-alone Kanji for way or path is "michi," but when they appear together, they are pronounced "Kyu-do" (the way of the bow). You know which pronunciation to use for the particular Kanji by simply memorizing them.

BTW, "shi" can also mean four.

HTH.

Charles Mahan
7th February 2003, 15:35
Perhaps we should sticky this at the top of the list so that we don't have to answer this question every month.

Soulend
7th February 2003, 16:10
BTW, "shi" can also mean four.

And it can also mean death. :D

I'm with Mr. Mahan..or at least have an FAQ. Between this 'hiten mitsurugi ryu' and 'where can I get a real "sabakatou"?', it's getting to where I despise anime.

DCPan
7th February 2003, 17:11
Originally posted by fifthchamber
Hello again Shugyo.
After reading the reply you posted I am still unsure what you meant by 'Sai'...

Okay,

I guess the closest translation I can come up for "sai" is "conneseour". It means something like the expert of something, the person who knows it best, the leading authority of, etc etc.

For example, Itto Ittosai changed his name to "Ittosai" to mean "he is the 'itto-man'"


The sensei that wrote "Nito-Ryu no Narai-Kata", Arazaki sensei, loved Nito so much he changed his first name to "Nito-SAI".

Hope that helps.

gendzwil
7th February 2003, 17:16
Originally posted by Soulend


And it can also mean death. :D


Which is why if you hear someone referring to ranks as "shidan" or "shichidan" rather than "yondan" and "nanadan", you know they didn't learn those terms properly.

DCPan
7th February 2003, 17:18
Originally posted by R A Sosnowski


You know which pronunciation to use for the particular Kanji by simply memorizing them.


The simple rule is that the kanji's Chinese pronounciation version goes with the Chinese pronounciation.

So, it's "Ken-Do", not "tsurugi-do" or "ken-michi" or "tsurugi-michi".

The simple way is that the Chinese sound is mono-syllabic while the Japanese pronounciation is NOT.

Of course, there are always rule-breakers...

:D

DCPan
7th February 2003, 17:23
For the fans...

http://www.n-p-s.net/sakabatou.htm

DCPan
7th February 2003, 17:31
If money is no object, this is the iaito I want.

http://www.nosyuiaido.co.jp/hukkoku/hijikata.htm

David

Kenshin7879
8th February 2003, 11:51
the site you listed just shows pics of the sword is there a place to purchase? and in english my internet explorer can only diplay a limited kind of japanese texts so I can't read what they said.

Kenshin Johnson
i was adopted so i have an english surname

Kenshin7879
8th February 2003, 11:57
in an certain episode of rurouni kenshin, kenshin explains since he was called battousai it means that he is an expert in all things pertaining to the drawing of the sword, or battoujutsu to answer the question of the original of this thread. oh and hiten misturugi means "heavenly flying drawing of the sword"or somehting like that. It is suppossed to explain why most of kenshin's attacks are from the air.

Kenshin Johnson
(adopted)
reason for surname

Soulend
8th February 2003, 13:54
Originally posted by Kenshin7879
the site you listed just shows pics of the sword is there a place to purchase? and in english my internet explorer can only diplay a limited kind of japanese texts so I can't read what they said.


Purchase page:
http://www.n-p-s.net/hokamozoutou.html

It says that the blade is made of some type of alloy and will set you back 35,000 yen. Personally I could find a better use for $291, but to each their own :)

P.S. - interesting first name. I believe you're the first person I've ever seen with it!

stevemcgee99
9th February 2003, 06:43
I just love that Outback Steakhouse iaito next to it!:D

Seriously, though, I'd like more info about these iaito, some seem pretty sweet.

DCPan
9th February 2003, 07:02
Unfortunately, I know NOTHING about this store. I simply saw in on the Taiwan Kendo Website, found it amusing, and threw the link on over here.

NRBnine
9th February 2003, 19:24
Originally posted by Kenshin7879
the site you listed just shows pics of the sword is there a place to purchase? and in english my internet explorer can only diplay a limited kind of japanese texts so I can't read what they said.


isnt swordstore.com the english version of nosyuiaido? please correct me if i'm wrong

stevemcgee99
10th February 2003, 09:22
Are you suggesting that this website is the japanese homepage for Nosyuiaido?

DCPan
10th February 2003, 16:55
Originally posted by DCPan
If money is no object, this is the iaito I want.

http://www.nosyuiaido.co.jp/hukkoku/hijikata.htm

David

I think he's referring to this link.

Incidently, this link doesn't work anymore...no more drooling on the replica Hijikata.

Anyone know the new link or how much this blade costs?

I really would like one when/if I save up enough $$$ for my next blade.

After all the rave reviews on Nosyu, I probably should try training with one...perhaps test swinging one a few times just doesn't "cut it" for appreciating them blades.... :D

stevemcgee99
10th February 2003, 18:10
Nosyuiaido's japan page is the NPS cutlery page? That's what I got via the backwards iaito link.

DCPan
10th February 2003, 18:14
Originally posted by stevemcgee99
Nosyuiaido's japan page is the NPS cutlery page? That's what I got via the backwards iaito link.

Hmm...I don't think NPS is related to nosyu...some close up pictures of the tsukamaki is fairly poorly done.

I do like the Saito Hajime blade on the NPS page though :D

stevemcgee99
11th February 2003, 05:16
Maybe it's meant to keep us working through th proper distributor? That would make sense. I'd still like to look at the pictures, though.

DCPan
11th February 2003, 17:05
Originally posted by stevemcgee99
Maybe it's meant to keep us working through th proper distributor? That would make sense. I'd still like to look at the pictures, though.

Hmm...I did download the pictures for the Hijikata before the site went down.

I can post the pictures if I won't get into trouble for it :D

Any objectors, let me know by PM or just say so, otherwise, the Hijikata pictures will be posted when I get home today ~ 8:00pm PCT

:eek:

DCPan
12th February 2003, 04:47
Hello,

As neither Rick or Scott have raised any objections, it should be okay....

:D

munenmuso
15th February 2003, 10:00
:)

BTW, Battousai the slasher's character was based on one of the four slashers of the Bakumatsu era, Kawakami Gensai. This Gensai had the feature of a woman hence Kenshi Himura looks and sounds like a woman, but when he strikes with a strange technique, I think its "furukanai"(?), the result is always devastating. He was most feared at the time. But today, I think his decendants, are operating a koryu dojo and his legend live on thanks to Nobuhiro Watsuki.

Bryan Johnson
28th March 2004, 19:55
Well,
According to the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, Nobuhiro Watsuki, the anime characters sword style is based on a real one. It is called Shiranui ryu. This was used by an actuall historic figure named Kawakami Gensai. I hope that this info help you.

Bryan Johnson

Yamaken
28th March 2004, 21:39
Miyamoto Musashi was the KENSAI or SWORDSAINT

Himura Kenshin is the BATTOSAI or DRAWINGSAINT or saint of the draw.

Hope this clears some stuff up.

shugyosha
29th March 2004, 11:16
that's remind me, i was looking for the expression "sword without saya" that is reffer to kenshin and is often used in japanese samurai movies how do they say in japanese?

Usagi
30th March 2004, 05:21
Originally posted by Bryan Johnson
Well,
According to the creator of Rurouni Kenshin, Nobuhiro Watsuki, the anime characters sword style is based on a real one. It is called Shiranui ryu. This was used by an actuall historic figure named Kawakami Gensai. I hope that this info help you.

Bryan Johnson

Moshi waki gozaimasen!!!!!!!!!!!!:smilejapa

I repent from my past sins and will try to compensate them now.

I've done this same question in here before and there was no (positive) answer.

Eventually, searching for some KanJi in my girlfriend's grandmothers' kanji dictionary I've stumbled onto Shiranui.

Are you ready boys and girls?

Shiranui Ryu means...."unindentified school" :(

Most likely the guy who translated to english thought the sound was to cool to not to be a real school.

So the mistery of the Shiranui Ryu is solved?

No totally..it would still be nice if someone could check for it in the Bugei Daijiten...

Anyway, IF there really was a Kawakami Battosai his style was likely to be a personal interpretation of fragments of muso jikiden eishinryu/muso shinderyu (the chuden techniques).

Gomur
30th March 2004, 18:10
Renato,

Its not Kawakami Battosai, its Kawakami Gensai.

http://www.sword.ne.jp/swordsmen/bushi/gensai.html

That link should give you all some information.




V Nguyen

Usagi
31st March 2004, 04:54
I am extremely grateful for that link.

The reason I wrote Kawakami Battosai was because the nickname might have been used by others and I wasn't wanting to write much :)

I should had used "Battosai".

In time, althought the sword fights in the tv series were extremely burlesque, in the OVA the fights were closer to what one might expect from real combat (just ignore the "owhat-a-f#$@" blocking).

Thank you again.