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Blues
27th December 2001, 18:19
This weekend I watched an old video of mine with a demonstration by Christian Tissier. He performed a throw I've never seen anybody else do. I was hoping you could give me a name.

Uke attacks with a straight punch to the chest.
Nage sidesteps to the outside and sweeps uke's extended arm upwards and back, over uke's head, continuing a circular motion...eventually sweeping uke's extended arm under himself, forcing uke to perform something resembling a backward summersault.

I've found an online clip here (about 500k):
http://yros.8m.com/Tissier34.mpg

Thanks.

Mike Collins
27th December 2001, 23:40
Looks like a variation of sumi otoshi. Pretty much the same principle anyway.

rupert
28th December 2001, 01:18
Looks like a kokyyo-nage variant in preparation for learning kote-gaeshi to me.

Rupert Atkinson

Blues
28th December 2001, 14:24
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about aikido to discern whether or not you guys are disagreeing. :D

Ron Tisdale
28th December 2001, 15:48
I get an error when I try to access the site. Sounds interesting, wish I could see it...

Ron Tisdale

Ok, I did a web search and found this and many others at:

http://monteino-webmaster.tripod.com/newrom/multi-1.html

This looks like a variation on ude osae to me; uke is doing a standard jumping breakfall (standard for yoshinkan anyway), shite is controlling the arm and cutting. We usually use two hands cutting (elbow and wrist), or one hand holding (wrist) one hand cutting (elbow) for this throw (in my experience). The timing involved doing this one handed from a punch seems pretty tricky to me...nice throw!

RT

P Goldsbury
28th December 2001, 15:56
For some reason I cannot open the file of Mr Tissier's demonstration, but if I understand your description, it is indeed a variation on sumi-otoshi, but done with one hand. Here in Hiroshima we practise the technique from shomen-uchi, yokomen-uchi, as well as tsuki (from any height). I first learned it from the late Seigo Yamaguchi Sensei, from whom Mr Tissier probably learned it also. As we do it here, the focus is on uke's upper arm, which is used to cut uke's legs. Hence the similarity with sumi-otoshi.

Yours sincerely,
____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

Blues
28th December 2001, 16:06
If you copy the URL into your location bar it should work.
Otherwise you could go to
http://yros.8m.com/ and download it from there. It's the 7th one from the top in the right column.

Blues
28th December 2001, 16:14
This is the image that goes with the clip.

P Goldsbury
28th December 2001, 16:28
The picture you attached is enough. Mr Tissier is indeed doing the technique I referred to in my earlier post.

Yours sincerely,
____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

Ron Tisdale
28th December 2001, 16:39
Hello Dr. Goldsbury,

Thanks for the answer...is doing this type of one-handed throw as tricky as it looks?

Hope you have a Happy New Year...
Ron Tisdale

Blues
28th December 2001, 16:56
Thank you all very much for your replies.

autrelle
28th December 2001, 17:37
for this technique, nage has to do a very deep entry to uke's rear.
it also calls for uke to maintain an active connection with the arm as it rotates behind him/her.
if uke simply "let's it go" in the arm, allowing it to freely rotate, without involving a body motion to follow it, nage simply switches to an ura-waza.
if you watch the clip, uke will maintain his arm in front of his body the whole time.
that means that ukes coordinates the rest of the body to follow with the arm as it rotates up and rearward.
this is a slightly advanced throw because the ukemi calls for a good deal of connection.
i have always heard this referred to a kokyunage.
i don't think that it can be 'categorically' called sumi otoshi.
i say that because although nage does engage uke's weak corner (most throws to the rear do), when performing the throw, there really isn't much 'otoshi' or dropping done by nage or uke.
IMO, it bears more relation to something that combines the attitude of irimi nage, kaiten-nage, and kokyu-waza.
just my lil' ranting.
if you check the VR's at www.aikidoonline.com Yamada SEnsei does the same throw.
i think he calls it something else.

truly

P Goldsbury
29th December 2001, 01:39
I do not think there is much point in arguing about the name of this technique. As with many oyo-waza, there isn't one and whatever name(s) it has have been given by students like Mr Yamada and not by the Founder himself. You can call it a 'variation' of a number of techiques, but Yamaguchi Sensei did not call it anything and we don't either, here in Hiroshima.

To Ron Tisdale,

Hullo Ron,

Yes, the technique is tricky and is not one of my favourites. If you look at the clip, Christian Tissier is very low and has just swept the legs from under his uke. Thus it is a genuine 'otoshi' or drop. On the other hand, as Autrelle states, it depends for its effectiveness on a deep irimi and one can check this by giving an atemi with the outside hand to uke's attacking arm. It is not so much a block as a push in the direction of uke's attack. But then with your inside hand you need to connect with the inside of uke's elbow and lose height quickly as you throw. Otherwise your back is vulnerable. Try it and also, when you take ukemi for this technique, check how vulnerable nage is to some kind of atemi, as you fall. When you have got to grips with the technique from tsuki, try it from yokomen-uchi done in omote (with one hand, the throwing hand, blending with uke's attack, in ai-hanmi posture).

That said, Christian is a very fine technician and when I took ukemi for this technique from Yamaguchi Sensei there was nothing I could do except fall.

All good wishes for 2002,

Peter Goldsbury
____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

szczepan
29th December 2001, 04:23
Heyka Ron,

This technique works very well in aikido dojo WITH un aikidoka willing with all his force to help you out :p

Szczepan waitin' for New Year's party :beer:

P Goldsbury
29th December 2001, 13:44
Originally posted by szczepan
Heyka Ron,

This technique works very well in aikido dojo WITH un aikidoka willing with all his force to help you out :p

Szczepan waitin' for New Year's party :beer:

Yes. That's why I don't like it.

Happy New Year!
_____________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

MarkF
29th December 2001, 16:15
Definitely a very nasty ukemi. It is most definitely a sumiotoshi variant looking at it from a judo standpoint. While it is a kokyo-nage, it was one of Mifune Kyuzo's "kukinage." The difference is only one of the type "air" you are referring, kokyo-nage being the more esoteric term for "air throw."

Anyway, for anyone my age or older, it is definitely not a fun ukemi to take anymore, even if thrown with two hands.

Have a safe, happy new year. Don't try this after a backwash of bucket of suds.:nono:

Mark

Ernesto Lemke
1st January 2002, 20:54
At the level as demonstrated by Tissier Sensei, the technique (known to me also as sumi-o-toshi) is executed almost simultaneously with uke's attacking force.

However, I happen to practice this very technique in a slightly different version as well.
By the example of the late Shirata Sensei :

Prior to applying the throw, which is pretty much the same, first step out of the line of attack triangularly and apply atemi.
So, let's say uke comes with shomen-uchi, right hand. Step to the left and grab uke's arm from above with the left hand while simultaneously strike at his head with your right hand. Then continue the motion of the right strike untill your underneath uke's right arm in a circular movement. Continue this motion (left hand let's go of uke) and throw with the right by stepping in.

(Variation might be to strike again to uke's face when your left hand releases uke's arm.)

Just a step in between and a nice reference to (perhaps) Shirata Sensei's pre-war notion of executing techniques. The principle pretty much stays the same though.
Best,

Ernesto Lemke