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Nathan Scott
28th December 2001, 07:39
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Chris Li
28th December 2001, 08:13
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I thought I'd start a thread here in which we can document "public" comments and discussions about this group.

A big reason for creating this is in response to a new article uploaded today on Aikido Journal online, about the Sagawa dojo:

Sagawa dojo article (http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=1119)

This report was written by Paul Wollos, a member of this forum, who has apparently received instruction at the "Sagawa-ha Daito ryu Aikibujutsu" main dojo in Kodaira.


Coincidentally, I happen to train with one of the other people in the article (Hiroyuki Hasegawa), so it was interesting to hear the report from the other side.

If anybody's interested, Kimura (from the article) has a book out (in Japanese) that covers a lot of Sagawa's instruction ("Tomei na Chikara", or "Transparent Power"). It's one of those books I keep on meaning to read but haven't got around to yet. I believe that he also has a book out on vector mathematics, if your tastes run that way :).

Best,

Chris

Dan Harden
28th December 2001, 14:32
I second Nathan’s Cautions-but I fear it is like speaking to the wind.
The Sagawa Dojo is without a doubt THE most conservative of the schools. I fear the brashness of the west will close any open door very fast.
We can only hope that THEIR understanding and tolerance of us is greater than ours for them. Perhaps it would do well to advise those seeking them out that it is a VERY slow and long road. There will be no rank nor any honors to be received there-only much sweat, with no reward other than the result of much hard work. Since Nathan brought up a corollary to TSKSR I will continue in that vein, you can't come home and teach it regardless of skill-or you’re outside looking in.
You can't "steal" the skills-as it will take you years to learn the basics. Would you study 5 techniques a year? And be satisfied?
How much do you "really" know the techniques you think you know now?
Slow training is neato- Over the years everyone learns who each other truly "is."
Budo tourists, Egoists, self serving "martial arts masters" and all other shallow types will be found out-and given a window seat.

Dan

Nathan Scott
29th December 2001, 09:58
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Chris Li
29th December 2001, 13:14
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Li - so is Mr. Hasegawa a student of the Sagawa dojo now? We'd love to hear about his experience on that day as well, if he (or you) would care to comment.

:)

Nope, he's still an aiki-bunny :) . I wrote my impression of what he told me of his experience with Kimura at the Aikido Journal thread (http://www.aikidojournal.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001026) if anybody's interested. He loves to talk, so if you ever run into him (and speak Japanese) you could get his impressions in a lot more detail.

FWIW, I would probably translate "Fuseishutsu" as "unparalleled" in this case rather than "extraodinary", but that's just my impression based on a quick flip through the book (I really do have to get to it one of these days).

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
31st December 2001, 20:42
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Chris Li
1st January 2002, 01:27
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Fair enough. Unparalleled might be more true to the intended feeling of the kanji and context. I didn't spend too much time with the translation - just confirmed what Mr. Stevens had written (which is also "extraoridinary") in Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary. It lists fuseishutsu as "rarity", and continues with "extraordinary; uncommon; unparalleled; unequaled; matchless; peerless".

I actually haven't read "Invincible Warrior", does he reference the book in a specific context, or is it just a bibliographical reference?

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
1st January 2002, 02:47
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Joseph Svinth
1st January 2002, 03:41
Nathan --

Why wouldn't you believe in tengu? While Takahashi's first dictionary definition of tengu is "long-nosed goblin," the second is "self-conceited person." There are some self-conceited people in the karate world, so perhaps a few found their way to aiki land, too.

Anyway, for kanji and some stories about tengu, see http://japanese.about.com/blhiraculture19.htm

Meanwhile, for the Japanese body language for tengu (defined here as "conceited braggart") see http://lov-e.com/RLSArticlesfolder/JBL4.html

Finally, for some philosophic and academic interpretations of tengu as a vain, conceited, braggart see http://caic.org.au/eastern/mahikari/mahi101.htm and
http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~rcm/draft.PDF .

Nathan Scott
1st January 2002, 04:00
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Chris Li
1st January 2002, 05:18
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I've read "Invincible Warrior", and I'd have to say that it is one of Steven's better books. It does, unfortunately, continue to spread the same rumors about magical, mysterious events that he has been critisized so heavily for.

I came across an interview of John Stevens in an old issue of Aikido Today magazine, and he states - among other things - that he believes in the existance of tengu! That would explain alot.

I've trained a little bit with John Stevens, and he does tend to look at things in a cosmic sort of light, but so did Morihei Ueshiba, so it's not necessarily a bad thing, considering the context. I think that you just have to keep that in mind and take his work as it is (I know that it drives some people nuts, though). He certainly does know his stuff.

In "Aikido Ichiro" there's a section where some of M. Ueshiba's pre-war uchi-deshi talk about Ueshiba's psychic powers - sounded like they believed it, too! Me, I'm still looking for that golden ball of light - now maybe if I can just get somebody to hit me on the head hard enough maybe it'll start showing up...

Best,

Chris

scott nichols
7th January 2002, 21:46
Mr. Li or Mr.Scott If one wanted to purchase the book you have been discussing about Sagawa Sensei, could it be obtained through a local book store? Is the book still in print, or is it only available in Japan? Thank you...Scott Nichols

Chris Li
7th January 2002, 23:50
Originally posted by scott nichols
Mr. Li or Mr.Scott If one wanted to purchase the book you have been discussing about Sagawa Sensei, could it be obtained through a local book store? Is the book still in print, or is it only available in Japan? Thank you...Scott Nichols

It's available through Amazon Japan (which is where I got it), but I'm not sure whether they ship abroad or not. Kinukuniya definitely ships abroad, and if they don't have it in stock they should be able to order it for you - they also let you order online.

Best,

Chris

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 01:54
Kinukuniya is a fabulous bookstore. They have two stores that I know of in the US: one in San Francisco (in the Japanese trade center) and one in New York City (mid-town Manhattan). I'm guessing that you can order books by phone from either of them.

They have a lot of hard-to-get English language books on Japanese subjects, as well. And, the store in NYC is the first place where I saw Stanley Pranin's books on display.

Chris Li
8th January 2002, 02:38
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Kinukuniya is a fabulous bookstore. They have two stores that I know of in the US: one in San Francisco (in the Japanese trade center) and one in New York City (mid-town Manhattan). I'm guessing that you can order books by phone from either of them.

They have a lot of hard-to-get English language books on Japanese subjects, as well. And, the store in NYC is the first place where I saw Stanley Pranin's books on display.

If anybody's interested you can order online at the Kinukuniya (http://bookweb.kinokuniya.co.jp/) page.

Best,

Chris

Daito
14th September 2002, 08:20
Hello,

I'm sorry for posting so late. Perhaps many of you have long forgotten this subject. After numerous consultations with Kimura Tatsuo Sensei, I'm posting here to clarify few points.

1. Training at Sagawa Dojo / Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu: It's still not open for public. Native Japanese must apply in writing to be allowed to practice. As to foreign practitioners, still no-one is allowed. After my initial experience class I was not allowed for further practice. Only later Kimura Sensei agreed to let me come to his dojo located in Tsukuba.

2. As to Mr. Hasegawa's experience: After knowing about the discussion on Aikido Journal Bulletin, Mr. Hasegawa apologized to Kimura Sensei, saying something about "foreign students have incorrectly interpreted his expression after his experience class in Tsukuba". In his interview in Aiki News (Spring 2001, No.132, page 46) he reffers to his experience with Kimura Sensei in different way. Yes, he still continues Aikido. He was allowed only for one experience class.

3. In Aikido Journal Bulletin Board, Mr. Pranin reffers to someone, whose opinion of Sagawa Sensei was low. I've asked Kimura Sensei about that, he explained that it was years ago, when Sagawa Sensei was still alive. A very famous budoka and budo journalist came for an experience class in Sagawa Dojo, and was treated just like everyone else (simply: thrown hard when practicing with students there). He felt embarraced and angry (expecting to be respected perhaps, since he was already quite famous in Japan's budo circles). Afterwards, he wrote some articles (?) about how he "took best of Sagawa Dojo' students and Sagawa Sensei himself" (!). He apologized to Sagawa Dojo only after Sagawa Sensei's death. It wasn't a public apology, though.
Kimura Sensei asked not to mention that person's name.
Some people training in Sagawa Dojo/Tsukuba are highly ranked (I mean 5th - 8th Dan) kendoka, judoka, karateka, aikidoka. Kimura Sensei himself was 5th Dan Aikido and 3rd Dan kendo, when he joined Sagawa Dojo.

4. Techniques: When writing my article I already knew it will be met with disbelief and criticism. Here again, I have nothing more to say than: THIS STUFF IS REAL! All I can say to people, who treat it with skepticism (well, not to blame them, if I haven't experienced it myself I would never believe): Try to get permission to join an experience class in Tsukuba. See (or FEEL) for yourself.

Kimura Sensei said:
"Many people say: to see is to believe. But is Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu to feel is to believe".

I recall post from Mr.Dan Harden, about putting a lot of hard work and sweat into such achievements. This is exactly what should be done. Sweat, sweat, and ... more sweat. There are no shortcuts. Fist few years in Sagawa Dojo are terrible. You just take ukemi, any technique you learn and try to initiate on someone will be resisted, and at the end it's you, who lands on tatami. That's how they train your body and spirit.

I am going to practice under Kimura Sensei again in November. Mr. Hasegawa will be allowed for another experience class then.

Anyway, if there are questions, which I am able to answer, I will. Thank you all.


Paul Wollos

Nathan Scott
18th September 2002, 08:11
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Nathan Scott
8th November 2005, 05:52
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Tatsushinden
21st August 2006, 20:43
A little while ago i ordered an aiki-DVD by Okamoto-sensei,published by aiki news.Inside the cover of the DVD was a booklet where their catalogue was depicted,and interestingly there was a DVD of different masters,but on the shown cover a large pic of Kimura sensei performing a technique on his students;ow i would naturally assume that if he's listed on the cover,that there is some footage on the DVD in question.Anybody seen it?

Jose Garrido
18th June 2013, 11:44
BTW: Wasn't Sagawa sensei teaching the original Ikkajo set in his dojo? I believe he called it Ichijo.

Can anyone out there confirm this? Nathan?


Jose Garrido

Nathan Scott
19th June 2013, 06:38
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Cliff Judge
19th June 2013, 17:14
Why is Daito ryu so insane? :laugh:

Nathan Scott
19th June 2013, 19:30
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Jose Garrido
20th June 2013, 00:42
Thanks Nathan

Cliff Judge
20th June 2013, 02:34
One day I am going to wrap my brain around this enough to articulate it. But Sokaku was a wonderful and terrifying person. The way he did things set this whole "Aiki" thing in motion which is such a profoundly awful and wonderful carrot to see dangling somewhere in front of your head for years and years of hard, frustrating keiko.

Cady Goldfield
20th June 2013, 03:17
The irony is, I suspect, is that the skill was all in the aiki, the internal training - the instructions for which don't seem to come up in the written curriculum. That's the part that must be transmitted person-to-person. Once it's inculcated, then you can take jujutsu, weapons, striking, etc. from wherever and whatever and apply those mechanical skills with aiki as the source of power.

What Sagawa talked about the most (and is all over Kimura's book) was his own solo training. That was not jujutsu.