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chris friedman
1st January 2002, 16:53
Who here practices traditional jujutsu and do you do any form of randori? If so how do you practice it? The reason I ask is I have been a bujinkan student for the last 9 years and they generally do not do any randori. Now I have trained in many other arts that practice randori and feel it is a helpfull tool for ones fighting skills. I have a freind that I have been teaching ninjutsu to and I have found several ways to incorporate some controlled sparring.We do controlled nage waza sparring where you slightly resist each other's throws in a free style manner. We practice free style defense against punches where one person has on gloves and he can throw three punches of any kind at you and you defend any way you like. So far I see no way to practice the dangerous techniques of ninjutsu in an all out fully resistant sparring match and that is fine but controlled randori is good training. I know jujutsu is similar in that the techniques are dangerous and not designed for sport so I was wondering how some of you trained in this area?

Aaron T. Fields
1st January 2002, 19:42
I practice a meji-period ju-jutsu, and we use quite a bit of randori. Control is the crucial component, (an the willingness to get banged around a bit,) we will also have free practice with focus on catagories of techniques.

Without free application of a particular technique a person really doesn't "have it." Randori is crucial in developing timing and pragmatic application. Most guys I have ever fought who have "kata only" training because their techniques "are dangerous" can't seem to make them work in a free setting.

My suggestion is to play with incorporating randori, and "free drills," not only is it good for developing technique but it is a lot of fun as well.

Jon S.
1st January 2002, 21:19
I practice traditional Jujutsu, and we do randori as you described. We also do a kuzushi exercise which is like randori, except we just set the throws - I think Judoka have a specific name for this exercise. We also do all out randori, and back to back training. Sometimes we do this competitively, and sometimes we incorporate many techniques that would be considered illegal in Judo. When we do this we don't view our randori as a competitive exercise, rather a training tool - so that more dangerous techniques can be used because uke will respect its application rather than try to fight out of it. No winners and losers in this practice, only two people developing their techniques. We'll mix kumite and randori as a non-competitive (not to be confused with cooperative) exercise as well.

We also do something similar to the three punch exercise that you described. In (two-handed) kata like style, uke will execute an attack of his choice - a punch, kick, grasp, choke, or throw - and tori will defend, not knowing what the attack will be. Particularly with newer students, the emphasis here is to do "something", even if it only means moving the body out of the way of the attack. Too many newer students, and intermediate ones too, in the face of an attack will stand there and try to think of a technique to use. This exercise helps them to learn to just react. Then, they are encouraged to quickly counter-attack as well, because if they hesitate too long, uke launches another attack.

Jon Small

Ben_Holmes
2nd January 2002, 05:16
We also do a kuzushi exercise which is like randori, except we just set the throws - I think Judoka have a specific name for this exercise.

You're probably referring to 'Uchikomi'... it's the form of practice where you do your off-balance, entry, but stop prior to the actual throw. In other words, you do everything *except* put your partner on the ground.


techniques that would be considered illegal in Judo

In many cases, it would be more accurate to say "techniques that would be considered illegal in Judo competition. We actually learn and train on many things that are considered illegal in competition. And, of course, there are things we simply don't train on, so depending on what techniques you're referring to, you may very well be accurate with your sentence the way it is.

Jon S.
3rd January 2002, 17:27
Thanks Ben,

Uchi-komi sounds right, but I didn't want to presume so because I wasn't positive. I particularly enjoy this practice because I believe it takes more control to set a throw than to actually throw. It's like when I practice atemi waza - it takes more control to stop a strike short and just barely touch a target than it does to break a board.

You're right too in that I should have clarified it to be illegal in "competition". I guess being on a Jujutsu forum, I was lax - kind of assuming that when speaking of Judo, "competition" was implied. Thank you for pointing out this small but important distinction.

Jon Small

Ben_Holmes
4th January 2002, 00:59
That's okay, Jon... you gave me a chance to stick my nose in the air and pretend to superior knowledge. I figure I owe it to myself to be self-important every once and a while... :)

There's been a great deal of discussion about various versions of uchikomi on the Judo-List recently... one thing seems clear, that "static" uchikomi, while it has it's place, is not as valuable as "moving" or "dynamic" uchikomi for the advanced...

"Static" being what it implies... you stand basically in one spot and move in and out of your technique. "Moving" or "Dynamic" being the opposite, you move around in a natural way and apply your technique.

Point being, that you improve the most when your training emulates the end result the closest. And moving uchikomi is more realistic for the advanced...

rsamurai2
4th January 2002, 05:23
I tend to agree with you Ben on the uchikomis. I always said you fight as you train. The more realistic the practice the more realistic the fight. However, Jon and I are both jujutsukas first and judoka second. We achieve kuzushi and entry (forgot the Japanese word) with a strike. The impact of a strike makes uke respond the way he would in a dynamic uchikomi, which results in a very effective, throw. I blew my knees out (both in judo) one 3 months before my shodan test the other the day after. Therefore, i can only do static uchikomis and i can already see a decline in my JUDO technique. Standing only. my newaza has improved because that is all i really can do. It will be at least another 2 or 3 months before i can due dynamic uchikomi in judo again. In addition, our version of randori/sparring mixes in jujutsu. In our style of jujutsu, we do a randori like judo (full out) but add body strikes (punches and kicks) into the mix. Still can't kick either.
Talk about irony. 22 years of full contact karate, point karate and combat jujutsu and its sport judo that injuries me the worst with all of its built in safe guards. It can only happen to me!

Jon S.
4th January 2002, 19:41
When first learning, I did lots of static uchikomi - just to develop the muscle memory. I usually still do when practicing a single throw, I'll set it two or three times, then throw. Now that I've learned the throws I think that dynamic uchikomi is of greater value to me because it teaches me when the appropriate moment to apply the technique is, and how uke reacts to the different forces I apply.

The point is, I found static uchikomi to be tremendously valuable at the beginning stages of the learning process because my focus was on learning how to move my own body correctly. Now, I think dynamic uchikomi is more valuable because it introduces more variables such as timing, applying kuzushi to an uke who is moving, learning how uke will react, etc.

Jon Small

rsamurai2
4th January 2002, 21:46
JON,
there was an intersting debate on this subject on the judo list. i tend to agree with you as far as static uchikomi allow you to learn the technique. but, i wouldn't do them more than a couple of class periods, if that long. some of the "big time coaches" on the judo list say not t do them at all because it can teach a bad habit you now how to break. our new head instructor at our club does dynamic uchikois only but slows the speed down for learning. uke is always moving.

it seems to work.

Jon S.
4th January 2002, 23:44
"some of the "big time coaches" on the judo list say not t do them at all because it can teach a bad habit you now how to break"

This is certainly a valid concern. For this reason it's so important that newer students learn the precise movement CORRECTLY before striving to do it repetitively. Quality over quantity. Sometimes I feel like I interrupt a new students practice too frequently to stop and correct them, and make them do it right. Perhaps I do, but I think it's better than allowing them to develop bad habits in the first place. Also, I encourage them to start learning in slow motion, so that they can better moniter themselves for the bad habits. I'd like to hope that this is a valid training method. It seems to be, but then, we're not trying to train Olympic caliber Judoka.

You say it was a 'debate' at the Judo List, so can I assume that there were some decent arguments opposing the "big time coaches" points of view? Personally, I oppose it because I think both static and dynamic uchikomi puts a focus on practicing the most critical part of the throw. Actually throwing is just a matter of following through with it.

I'm sorry I missed the debate, but I felt it necessary to unsubscribe because I couldn't get the overwhelming amount of email out of my inbox quick enough, so I was running out of room.


Jon Small