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mmagpayo
2nd January 2002, 18:35
Does anyone know why jodo has not enjoyed a widespread proliferation in this country as such arts as kendo and iaido? It is my understanding that the Zen Nihon Renmei version of jodo is taught under the auspices of the All Japan Kendo Federation. It is my assumption that at least one of the many wonderful kendo and iaido instructors that have come from Japan is qualified to teach the art, but why don't they? Is there some form of edict against teaching jodo in this country or is the art that difficult to learn?

My questions exclude the involvement of the Shindo Muso Ryu practitioners in this country. It is mainly a question of why the Zen Nihon Renmei version of jodo is not practiced or taught in this country along with kendo and iaido. Thanks.


Mark Magpayo
New Jersey/NewYork

Kim Taylor
3rd January 2002, 01:57
Hi Mark

I think the answer to your question is actually pretty simple. I'm not aware of any high ranking kendo instructors in the USA who have studied Jodo. That goes for almost all of the higher ranked iaido instructors too. In the Kendo federation, Jodo is definitely the junior art as far as numbers are concerned and people who study two arts are in the minority, with those who study 3 being rare indeed.

There is definitely no edict preventing the teaching of zen ken jo (if fact the IKF would encourage any national body that wanted to organize a jodo section) and it isn't any more difficult to learn than any other partner-based art.

As far as NYC/New Jersey is concerned, Meik and Diane are both ranked in the kendo federation but I think they are teaching koryu under the IJF rather than the AUSKF and use Zen Ken Jo to introduce people to the art. The Japanese Swordsmanship Society however, has been teaching jodo along with iaido and naginata for many years and they are an AUSKF dojo. You might want to give them a call if you're interested.

By the way, none of the high ranked kendo sensei in Canada do jodo either, but in the UK Jock Hopson is a 7dan in kendo, iaido and jodo.

Kim Taylor
CKF jodo section
http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

mmagpayo
3rd January 2002, 04:28
Thank you for your reply. It's funny that you mention the Japanese Swordsmanship Society because I actually play atarashi naginata under the supervision of Yamauchi Sensei who is the head instructor for the Nichibukan Naginata Dojo within the JSS. JSS does have a group within that organization practicing jodo under the direction of the Kobukan dojo in Japan, but what made me post my questions is the almost non-existant representation of jodo as a distinct martial art in the US. Normally, you find it in relation to aikido or karate, but as a stand alone art it is almost non-existant except for the practitioners of Shindo muso ryu in this country. I concede that it is difficult to practice several martial arts in modern society with people having various obligations and time constraints. I myself suffer from those constraints, but don't you think it odd that there aren't any Japanese instructors at the shidoshi level teaching in America, even if that is all they teach. There is high level representation from Japan for most modern forms of budo. If not there is usually legitimate students who are sanctioned by the related Hombu and still have ongoing relationships w/ their instructors. I just thought it odd that at least the ZNKR version of jodo is not represented in at least a few major kendo dojos because of the obvious relationship.

Don't ask me why I have this thing for jodo. I actually saw a clip from a jodo video by Matsui Kenji Sensei and ever since then I had this thing about jodo. My angst is coming from the fact that there aren't many "qualified" instructors around.

Currently, I am not practicing jodo. Under the encouragement of several of my betters I am focusing on the arts I am already practicing. My fault and my strength is that I am one those people who just takes in knowledge like a sponge. The fault comes from the juggling I have to do to fit everything in. Regrettably, something has to suffer be it relationships, business or the art.

Anyway, that's enough. If you start me rambling I keep on going. ;)

Thanks again.

Mark Magpayo
New Jersey/New York

Kim Taylor
3rd January 2002, 06:09
Hi Mark

Well the relative lack of traffic on this board under this subject speaks volumes for the reason, I suspect. Jodo simply isn't as popular in Japan as kendo or even iaido. There is an very long history of kendo in the USA and Canada (Joe Svinth is working on a book now actually) beginning with the Japanese who migrated and continuing to this day, but it's only recently that you see non-Japanese coming up in the ranks and hitting the 7dan levels.

Judo has a similar history. Karate got a massive jump due to the occupation of Okinawa and the numbers of servicemen who brought it back to the States.

But jodo has none of those advantages. It wasn't spread outside Fukuoka with any great success until Shimizu sensei went to Tokyo (although Uchida was there and taught Nakayama). Shimizu's instructor Shiriashi was, for all intents and purposes, the only instructor of jodo who made it through the Meiji era. Everything then, spreads from him and from Tokyo and Fukuoka so you're looking at an art that is essentially a post WWII reality. The instructors just weren't there before that time so it's not surprising that they aren't here in the West. It really is a "new" art compared to kendo and judo and karate.

As for ZNKR and MSR, they're the same thing (OK we can get into the "differences" between koryu and seitei but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck... I don't see too much of Tendo-ryu staff in seitei) There just aren't that many separate jodo arts to be had in Japan, let alone outside. Meik has named them off a couple times on the board if there are archives hanging around. Most jodo really is associated with Aikido, Ninja (kukishinden), or comprehensive arts (tendo, kashima shinryu and whatnot)

No conspiracy of silence, no super-selective secret sensei hiding out in the wilds of Chicago waiting for students to stumble into their backyards, just a simple lack of numbers :-) All the Japanese jodo sensei I've met so far have been most willing to teach as many people as they can get gathered together to teach, I've just had little success in convincing any of them to settle down in Guelph so far.

Oh, that's not to say there isn't the usual amount of sniping between the big guns as you see in any martial art, but the ones I've met are all ZNKR and will all teach seitei to pretty much anyone regardless of their koryu lineage.

Say hi to John Prough for me.

Kim Taylor

kantsipr
3rd January 2002, 19:56
If I may, just out of curiosity, where did you get your instruction in jo? Thx for humoring me.

Kim Taylor
3rd January 2002, 20:02
Hi Kantsipr

No problem, we bring Namitome sensei, Ide sensei and Nakaima sensei over from Japan regularly to teach in the area.

Kim Taylor
http://ejmas.com/

mmagpayo
3rd January 2002, 20:15
Kim,

Thanks again for your input. It has been most helpful. Changing the subject to the establishment of shindo muso ryu in the United States. There appears to be for the lack of a better phrase two lineages in America trying to establish themselves. There is a shibu in Maryland called the Beikoku Rembukan authorized by Kaminoda Tsunemori Sensei. The head instructor is Rick Polland, who also happens to run swordstore.com. Little plug. The second is a group under the tutelage of Phil Relnick at his Woodinville, Washington Dojo. I believe, but I am not sure if Meik Skoss studied under the same lineage that Phil Relnick did. I know that Meik and his wife, Diane teach at the South Mountain Martial Arts Dojo in Madison New Jersey. Other than the people that I have mentioned I don't believe there are any other people qualified to teach SMR in this country. Can you or someone else verify or add to this.

Another question I have is there a difference between shindo and shinto muso ryu? I seen both terms used, but I don't know if it simply a typo or a synonymous term.

Mark Magpayo
New Jersey/New York

Kim Taylor
4th January 2002, 00:43
Hi Mark

Meik's gotta be out of town or he'd be in here.

Yes there's the IJF SMR under Nishioka s. and founded by Donn Draeger under Shimizu s. Phil Relnick and Meik are in that group. http://shinto-muso-ryu.org/

There's also Rick and his SMR group in Baltimore under Kaminoda s. http://www.jodo.com/

You're going to kick yourself here, there's also the New York Kobujodokai under Matsumura Shigéhiro Sensei in the JSS where you learn naginata. http://www.ny-jss.org/home/jodo/jodohome.html

Also teaching seitei jo but labelled as SMR so I don't know if they do koryu (doesn't seem to be listed on the website), is the Karl Geis aikido group, taught by Tsunako Miyake with Geis s. being an 8dan jodo by his website. http://www.karlgeis.net/

Woah, here's another IJF under a Shiokawa sensei who's a soke of 4-5 arts and a menkyo kaiden of jodo as well as a renshi 5dan in ZNKR. http://www.chintokan.com/usajf.htm

There's jodo under Shimabukuro s in the States, dunno if it's SMR or seitei though, their iaido and jodo page seems to be password protected http://www.jikishin-kai.com/

Here's another Aikido group doing seitei, doesn't look like koryu though http://aikidoalliance.org/jodo.html

Frank Hargrove, head of a karate group with connections here in Guelph has a certificate from Shimizu sensei (early 1970s) http://karate.tni.net/fdrh/ but I don't think he's teaching.

Woah just found out that I've been playing at this stuff for almost 10 years. Playing being the primary word here though, I didn't have to get serious about it until we got 30-40 people doing it. http://kendo-canada.com/ckf07.htm

Aw the searches seem to be degenerating into more and more obscure references. Anyway that seems to be about it from a search engine massage of the net for the USA. In Canada we've got a primarily koryu group headed by Kuniyuki Kai sensei and the CKF which is concentrating on seitei jodo.

Kim Taylor
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/

will szlemko
4th January 2002, 01:16
Hi,

In Alaska there is a small informal group (4 members) doing jodo under the Kaminoda lineage.

will

mmagpayo
4th January 2002, 21:13
Thanks for the info.

Does anyone know if there is free form practice in the study of jo/shindo muso ryu?Meaning that after the kata forms are practiced is there anything like padded training weapons so that the techniques can be applied in a less controlled setting, something like shiai in kendo except less contact prone since I doubt anyone practicing jodo wears bogu. This is somewhat of a general question specific to koryu.

Actually, writing this blurb made me think about it and I've seen the practice of kata get pretty intense. At times I've seen people go through kata with full intent and the only thing seemingly saving the person on the other end is pure concentration and a great level of trust between the two practitioners.

But what I guess I am getting at is how do you compensate for angled or basically unconventional attacks if your practice is mostly linear. How do you build an awareness of your entire surroundings if your focus is mainly in front of you.

Its like a kendoka who has practiced for many years suddenly has the oportunity to play shiai with someone playing atarashi naginata who gets hit in the shins because he/she doesn't realize that they can be hit in the shins even though the naginata player is right in front of them aiming for their shins. Because koryu is based on battlefield techniques and the development of that type of awareness, I was curious as to what kind of special training if any is used to develop that awareness.


Mark Magpayo
New Jersey/New York

Jeff Hamacher
8th January 2002, 08:24
Originally posted by mmagpayo
Does anyone know if there is free form practice in the study of jo/shindo muso ryu?
there is no training in SMR/ZNKR jodo other than kata. having said that, there's more than enough in there to keep you going for a lifetime. mastered SMR jo already? how about all the ancillary arts such as kenjutsu, jutte, kusarigama, or tanjo? a veritable smorgasbord of weapons to train with!

Actually, writing this blurb made me think about it and I've seen the practice of kata get pretty intense. (...) I was curious as to what kind of special training if any is used to develop (an) awareness [of random or unexpected attacks].
i train in a dojo in central japan which is part of Matsumura-sensei's Kobujodokai. with more advanced students, Matsumura-sensei will suddenly produce kaeshi-waza if the jo technique is insufficient, thwacking his partner on the back, for example, using his tachi. this isn't to suggest that training with him is dangerous or violent; rather, he makes his standards clear to his students by reminding them of what real dangers would exist if the kata were a proper fight. even beginners like me get reminders: if i move too soon to receive or avoid an attack, my seniors will change the direction or depth of their strike to demonstrate how an opponent in a real fight would react. you have to push the envelope with your timing and make every movement accurately in order to truly understand the underlying "meaning" of the kata.

now, i know that somewhere out in webspace is an interview with the top instructor in Tendo-ryu (i think) naginata, who says that participation in atarashii naginata shiai is essential to effective training. i agree she has a point, but personally i'm glad to not have tournaments in jodo.

an aside for Taylor-sensei:

my wife and i are planning a move to canada in the next year or so, preferably to Ottawa, so i can pursue grad studies. i think i found a CKF-affiliated dojo in the nation's capital that offered training once a week in ZNKR jo seiteigata. it this true or were my eyes playing tricks on me? as happy as i would be to move to Guelph if only to train with your group i don't think that that's in the cards, so i need to keep up the research on martial arts training in my "target areas". if you can offer any insights on jo training (or Omotesenke tea for that matter; i'm quite anxious to keep up that study as well) in canada i would be most appreciative. please feel free to post a reply or send e-mail to the address in my profile.

Kim Taylor
8th January 2002, 15:34
Hi Jeff

I think you'll find lots of support in Ottawa, there's a good Japanese community and two CKF dojo. The one that was doing jodo is Tateyama, you can contact them through http://kendo-canada.com/tateyama/index.html

A Japanese student was teaching jodo there for a while but he's returned to Japan, there are still folks interested and practicing though, so you'll have some folks to wave sticks with.

Drop me a line at kataylor@uoguelph.ca when you know what's happening and I'll make sure you get hooked up with someone.

Take care
Kim Taylor
http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

will szlemko
9th January 2002, 03:21
Hi,

As Jeff already mentioned I am not aware of any practice other than kata. That said though I have built a fukuro jo that I have engaged kendo folk with. Kata done while pushing the envelope of timing, distancing etc. was much more demanding IMO than the free sparring with kendoka. This was at least in part do to the kendoka using a shinai where there is not as much danger.

will