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TimKnight
4th January 2002, 06:26
One of things I have never been able to do over the years is to learn the language of the arts I practice. I was curious if any of you recommend any software or learning programs for the japanese language?

Thank you
-Tim Knight

Joseph Svinth
4th January 2002, 07:44
Does a girlfriend count as soft wear?

red_fists
4th January 2002, 07:51
Hi Tim.

It depends on how much Japanese and for what purpose you want to use.

If it simply for personal use and study you can do a bit of self-study.

On the other hand if you want to use it in everyday life, you will need more formal instructions.

Even though some of my friends studied
Japanese b4 they came to Japan, they had to re-learn a certain amount.

Romanisation and pronounciation is often different as well as some uses of the Language.

Modern Japanese differs from proper Japanese taught in most schools.

Chris Li
4th January 2002, 13:52
Originally posted by red_fists
Romanisation and pronounciation is often different as well as some uses of the Language.

I wouldn't bother with studying Romanization at all. The only people who use Romanized Japanese are non-Japanese. A lot of older people have trouble reading any Romanized Japanese at all (I don't blame them, I do too :) ).




Modern Japanese differs from proper Japanese taught in most schools.

I wouldn't say that it differs so much as that most people who learn Japanese in schools abroad tend to have speech that's over formal. On the other hand, people who learn Japanese in Japan often speak over casually, and have a hard time shifting to formal language. I'd say that you probably can't go wrong with being overly formal, and once you have the basic structures down it's not too hard to pick up the common speech patterns.

Best,

Chris

TimKnight
5th January 2002, 02:48
Really, I'm just trying to find the best way to learn japanese for communication - and after that written japanese so I may read some of the material that hasn't been translated.

Chris Li
5th January 2002, 03:06
Originally posted by TimKnight
Really, I'm just trying to find the best way to learn japanese for communication - and after that written japanese so I may read some of the material that hasn't been translated.

Most people would never think of learning Italian or French without reading and writing, and yet lot of people do attempt to learn Japanese without also studying the written component of the language, but I don't recommend it personally. As you'd expect, reading and writing the language is a great vocabulary builder, and will give you a better idea of the construction of the words. It also improves your grammer. How many people actually speak English with correct grammer? Not too many, but most people can at least recognize the correct structures because they're used to seeing them in print. Same logic.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
10th January 2002, 04:22
Originally posted by TimKnight
One of things I have never been able to do over the years is to learn the language of the arts I practice. I was curious if any of you recommend any software or learning programs for the japanese language?
the difficulty with martial arts terminology is that, at least in some cases, it's quite esoteric even for native speakers! if you want to start building a base for day-to-day communication and then progress from there i would strongly recommend a textbook such as Japanese for Everyone or the series Japanese for Busy People. if you choose the "Busy People" series, follow Chris's suggestion and get the kana versions, not the romanized ones. "JfE" is my personal fave; if you can handle the complete contents of that textbook you'll be well on your way to daily communicative competence in japanese. not that you could afford to stop there, trust me.:) if qualifications interest you, a complete understanding of "JfE" will also set you up to pass Grade 3 of the Japanese Proficiency Exam with flying colours.

as for reading japanese-language source material on martial arts, that will take somewhat longer. it's not impossible, but it does take consistent, organized, and applied study to memorize the ideographs, not to mention absorbing all the various grammatical forms that are found in written japanese.

please feel free to contact me off-board if you have further questions, or post here as you wish.

TimKnight
10th January 2002, 05:54
Jeff,

Thank you very much - I will look into both of those pieces of material. Granted more of this study will take a long time - however I am still young so that time is available. Communication is my first priority and literacy is my second. Thanks again for your assistance.

What is the difference between the kana and romanized - is kana used more often today?

Also I found two books with the man Japanese for Everyone...

One by M. Rajendran and the other Nagara Susumu, which is the one you were referring?

Jeff Hamacher
10th January 2002, 09:20
Originally posted by TimKnight
Communication is my first priority and literacy is my second.
i think you have your priorities straight, but don't disregard what Chris posted about learning the written language in tandem with oral skills. you NEED to study written japanese in order to make any progress beyond an intermediate level of fluency. more on that below ...

What is the difference between the kana and romanized - is kana used more often today?
think of it this way: the kana are the phonetic symbols actually used in writing proper japanese. there are two sets of approximately 50 characters each, but don't be intimidated. if you practise steadily writing and reading them it shouldn't take more than a few weeks to get the hang of them. japanese which has been transliterated into roman characters (i.e. japanese sounds represented with the alphabet) is, for the student of the language, at best a short-term cheat or crutch. learn the kana as early as possible in your study and stick to using them.

now, the chinese ideographs (or kanji in japanese) are a slightly different matter. there is a metric tonne of these babies to learn, and while you shouldn't spend an inordinate amount of time memorizing them at the start, i would still recommend that you don't put it off too long. once you've taken that first month or so to memorize the kana, begin a "one a day" programme for the kanji using a textbook. i've hand-made a set of flashcards over the years that i've found indispensible, but use whatever method you like.

Also I found two books with the name Japanese for Everyone...One by M. Rajendran and the other Nagara Susumu, which is the one you were referring?
Nagara Susumu. it's published by Gakken. i'll run down the ISBN for you and get back to you later. in the Gakken "JfE" series there is a kanji textbook and a set of cassette tapes for listening which i would highly recommend.

i'll sign off here but check back tomorrow for more info.

Yanosuke
11th January 2002, 04:03
Did some other people get any program or their name for a complete japanese kit on a cd ?

TimKnight
14th January 2002, 03:06
Indeed - Chris and Jeff you have both been much help. I have tracked down the ISBN on the books mentioned so others that are curious as well my find them useful. Jeff if you find that I am incorrect on one of the ISBN's please notify me. Thanks again everyone.

Japanese for Everyone
ISBN: 0870408534

Japanese for Busy People I : Kana Version (Japanese for Busy People)
ISBN: 4770019874

Japanese for Busy People - Kana Workbook : Kana Workbook (Japanese for Busy People)
ISBN: 4770020961

Japanese for Busy People (Kana version) Vol. II
ISBN: 4770020511

Japanese for Busy People II : The Workbook (Japanese for Busy People , Vol 2)
ISBN: 4770020376

Japanese for Busy People III : Kana Version (Japanese for Busy People Series)
ISBN: 477002052X

Japanese for Busy People III: Workbook
ISBN: 4770023316

TimKnight
14th January 2002, 18:50
Jeff,

Also you mentioned making flashcards of kanji for yourself. Do you know of a good source for the kanji characters so I may study and perhaps make similiar cards for myself.

Thanks

Jeff Hamacher
15th January 2002, 03:30
Originally posted by TimKnight
Do you know of a good source for the kanji characters so I may study and perhaps make similiar cards for myself?
the kanji textbook which is part of the Japanese for Everyone set is a great starting point. it contains more than 500 characters to keep you going for quite a while. beyond that, i'd recommend Kanji in Context, published by the Japan Times, ISBN4-7890-0753-7. at 3,300 yen it's quite reasonably priced in japan, but i've heard it's ridiculously expensive overseas; a british friend of mine told me it was priced at almost 50 pounds in a UK bookshop! still, it's great: all of the 1,945 "Daily Use Kanji" plus a couple of extras, good vocabulary examples for each character, and an easy-to-use index system. in addition to the "Reference Text" there are also two workbooks, but i didn't bother with them.

thanks for posting the "JfE" ISBN; slipped my mind.

Blackthorne
17th January 2002, 05:16
Something that I saw on Internet Explorer that is supposed to be good is the Kanji a Day Pad (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/080482004X/qid=1011241075/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1_1/104-9275619-9131929). I have not used it, but judging by the reviews, it's a good product.

Best of Luck,

Rennis
17th January 2002, 19:02
Of course, different people learn differently, but I would tend to agree that getting kana and such out of the way sooner is better than waiting. Plus it really isn't all that hard. At the college I attened in Japan, the beginning Japanese students basically have to learn both hiragana and katakana in a week and pretty much everyone is able to do it. One textbook I highly recommend is the "Genki" series. It is fairly new, but it impressed the Japanese department enough that they switched over to it immediately. Even most of the students said they liked them, which has to be a good sign. Last I saw Sasuga books carried them.

Many people wish to focus on the spoken langauge first (I personally was one of them, although I did start working on the written spects of the langauge fairly soon after I started). Having some sort of audio tapes, etc is obviously highly recommended and in my experience the most useful "audio only" series are the ones put out by Pimsleur. The introductory sets are available at Barnes and Noble, etc and they contain the ordering information for the full 16 tape sets. These run around $100 for the full sets, but they are very much worth money. This series doesn't focus on set phrases in isolation much, but instead focuses on putting everything in the context of conversations. I studied Japanese on my own for about two and a half years before I moved to Japan for school and the things I learned in the Pimsleur series were by far the things I was most able to put into immediate use upon arrival there. I had gotten about half way into the second set of tapes at that point and can't stress enough how valuable they were to me for being able to actually have real conversations when I got there...

There are tons of tips, try everything and do what works best for you.