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Drew3
5th January 2002, 05:06
This question is a question dealing with the history of Judo and Mr. Kano's ideas. I have noticed that there aren't any rear hip throws in Judo. By rear hip throws I am speaking of a throw that would start off like Osoto Gari with the same kuzushi, but rather than reaping the leg, the tori would sink low and use their hip to lift and throw the uke. I have seen this throw and many variations of it in some Jujutsu systems as well as in Budo Taijutsu. I had heard the Mr. Kano decided to eliminate these rear hip throws from Judo because of the danger for the uke, because it is very easy to land on your head and neck from this type of throw. Is there any truth in this statement? Do any Judo practitioners out there practice this variation of the throw? Thank you...

MarkF
5th January 2002, 11:25
As I understand your question, you want to know if there are any hip throws which use "back" kuzushi, or breaking balance to the rear, then do a throw similar to O-goshi?

I will assume that because you do since you mention sinking down and using the hip to throw, but using rear or corner-rear off-balancing.

You mentioned variants and I also assume you mean koshiwaza.

Many of the usual hip throws can be done with rear kuzushi, or even an entry similar to that of o-soto gari. While your kuzushi will ultimately place uke in a position to fall to your front there are many variations for all kinds of front throws to go to the rear.

You can enter with a push back, then enter by crossing the unposted leg and turn it into a front hip throw.

For example, a shoulder throw can be achieved nicely by off-balancing to the side, stepping across, and finishing with seoinage. But even with a different direction of kuzushi, it doesn't change the mechanics or direction of the throw. Uke will still be thrown as if he were going to (tori's) front. Tori can indicate a rear kuzushi, yet uke will be thrown to tori's front for many reasons, one would be the reaction of being pushed back. These are common variations on shoulder throws.

If you break uke's balance to the rear, tori can step across the unplanted leg, and do a forward or side directed hip throw, eg, uki-goshi. Still, it is a forward directed throw from Tori's stance.

Perhaps I don't understand what you mean, but not every throw must begin where it is supposed to be. Lots of randori will help you try different ways of off-balancing or completing throws in different directions.

But there are throws which are entered similar to osoto gari all ready. O-soto guruma would be one example. This is basically the same throw, but it is done by placing the leg across both of uke's leg, and placed there, or both legs are sweeped in a wheel direction.
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Step in as if for o soto gari, plant your leg, and turn for a hip throw. Also, not all hip throws are done *over* the hip. Some are done with the hip rising in front instead of bent over like o-goshi. One of them is not done in randori but may be practiced (dakiage). Others are sacrifice technique which are side to side hip throws.

I apologize if I didn't understand the question, but many throws can be started from differing directions that every variation can't be described it has to be done or felt.

Mark

Brian Griffin
5th January 2002, 15:05
The specific throw referred to is known in Judo as changae, and is forbidden in contest as it is considered to endanger the spine. We still teach it, but it must be practiced with care.

The Danzan Ryu name for the technique is kesanage.

rsamurai2
5th January 2002, 17:05
we done this throw in jujutsu but i haven't seen it in judo. mark, it is done exactly like o goshi only your hip is behind uke instead of in front. your hand placement is like koshi guruma and you are forcing uke head backward. unlike ogoshi or koshiguruma where you are forcing uke s head down towards his chest you are forcing ukes head towards his back. now uke is flipping backwards. it is a weird sensation to be throw this way. you also land on your stomach so it requires a different break fall. i believe we call it mae ukemi.