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Joseph Svinth
5th January 2002, 15:35
Okay, I have my ideas on this one, too. (Ya guessed, huh?) But this time I'll shut up for a bit. (Hey, there's always a first time.) John, you shut up for a minute, too. (First time for that, too!) Which means (ta da!) that the buck is passed firmly to Ed (or anybody else who is lurking).

Now, while waiting for Ed to go back and get his bunkai out of the geki sai thread (it's the traditional one, so it's important), let's start by posting a by-the-numbers explanation for folks who don't know this kata by heart. Here it is, all in English: http://freespace.virgin.net/mike.clark/sodokan11.htm . If all those English terms confuse you, then try instead http://www.chikara.com.au/saifa.htm , where the stances and such are listed in Japanese.

Next, note that the R. Crumb "Keep On Truckin'" step is REALLY pronounced in the opening moves of this kata. IMO, this lateral movement into an attack (e.g., sabaki) is one of the key learning objectives of saifa kata.

Finally, note that Ed is not alone in thinking that saifa is an intermediate rather than elementary kata. See, for example, http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/featurecontent/view.asp?article=216 .

CEB
6th January 2002, 02:04
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth

Now, while waiting for Ed .................


.

Oh boy, I'm not good at breaking karate techniques down into words. Joe, being a professional writer would be much better at this than I. Here it goes.

Saifa bunkai first sequence -

1. Attacker to your front grabs your right wrist.

2. Grasp your right fist with you left hand,

3. Shift up to masuba dachi facing 9:00

4. Right hand punches across and downward to your left hip with left hand pulling to assist the breaking of the grab. ( Note: Jundokan and probably most other flavors of Goju around the world punches straight across body and not downward. I think the downward direction of the punch is a characteristic of GKK and Seigokan. I don't think Goju Kai did it this way if anyone else does it this way I would be interested in knowing that we are not alone. )

5. Drop straight down to shiko dachi and bust the attacker's nose with right riken.

I want put my understanding of the concept of bunkai out on the table, so we are on the same page. Maybe this would make a good topic for discussion thread in itself, I don't know. I hear terms Bunkai/Oyo thrown about quite a bit as if they are interchangeable and maybe they are and its just my particular sect of karate that uses the terms this particular way. Maybe everybody interprets these concepts a little differently. This is probably why Ted discourages the use of Japanese words in his Karate forum.

This bunkai ,as a lot of our bunkai, is like kindergarten karate. No one if grabbed by the wrist should take the free hand which is their only remaining defense out of the fight to break the hold. Two hands should not be required to break free. But we teach this anyway because it is the bunkai and there is no other. For instance, our bunkai kumite for Gekasai dai starts out with attacker steps forward and punches defender steps back and blocks, not the 'real' application it but make the drill flow much better.

Oyo is the good stuff. ( good don't mean complicated!) The applications in kata Saifa may be the most dangerous in Goju. A lot of bad stuff in Saifa. We have people in the dojo we don't want to teach some applications to. I don't want to teach a 15 year old how to break a man's neck no matter how good a kid he seems to be. Some people do not have the skills or body type to successfully execute certain kinds of techniques that may work well for other individuals. We start teaching Saifa to people at about gokyu and many of the students are children. I think that our bunkai serves good purposes. It provides structure to the syllabus because every body learns the bunkai. Sorry about the bunkai ramble but thought it was important if I am going to participate in a discussion.

I have to quit now, it took me way too much time to create this post.


Ed Boyd

CEB
6th January 2002, 02:23
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


Next, note that the R. Crumb "Keep On Truckin'" step is REALLY pronounced in the opening moves of this kata. IMO, this lateral movement into an attack (e.g., sabaki) is one of the key learning objectives of saifa kata.



Very true about the sabaki note. Its the key even though is isn't demonstrated in our 'bunkai'.

I still don't comprehend the heel walking though I guess I need to see it done to understand it. We move on the balls of our feet. Maybe all Friday evenings I spend working out with my Seito Matsumura Ryu ( style my son practices ) friends in Peoria have rubbed off. Heel walking really frowned upon up there.

Have a good day.

Ed Boyd

Joseph Svinth
6th January 2002, 06:54
Ed --

What, you think that words come easily? Hah! They still require much work, despite 40 years of practice.

So why spend the time? Because I agree that you don't learn simply by reading. On the other hand, by *writing* about something, then you're interacting with the information. In this case, if the brain is engaged (e.g., you are not plagiarizing), then learning is sometimes possible.

***

On the stepping, an interesting little game. (John will doubtless say I've been too unduly influenced by conversations with my friend who did pakua and hsingi.) I call it "walking." (Literally.)

Start by taking your shoes off and then walking across a reasonably large hardwood floor (e.g., the dojo). As you stride, feel the floor. What pushes, what pulls? Where is the balance? Where is the off balance?

As you get a little better at this, then you start trying for speed. What pushes, what pulls? Where is the balance? Where is the off balance?

After a bit, graduate to "Red Light, Green Light." This is of course nothing more than somebody at the back of the room saying "Stop" and "Go" while you and your buddies try to walk across the room as fast as possible. Note: If you move on "Stop," then you go back to the rear of the room and start over. Doesn't matter if your foot was in mid-air; it better stay off the ground until the rascal in back says "Go." (The raised foot can move about in the air, but it cannot touch the ground.)

So, to "win" the game, you must push off as hard as you can, pull as hard as possible, and yet always remain on center. Otherwise you get caught in midstride and end up back of the class, or dawdle, and end up getting passed by.

It's trickier than it sounds, and not a bad lesson in life, either.

***

Okay John, you can pipe up now. Ed's on the spot, and feeling lonely out there. :)

MarkF
6th January 2002, 16:44
I just spent a lot of time reading a forty plus thread and understood little (that's OK, I like learning. It is basically the understanding which gets in the way. The race is much more fun than crossing the finish line in first. Besides, first is rarely accomplished unless it is the race to the cemetery).

Now I come to this thread, read four posts, and I understand about 90 per cent of it, probably because bunkai is bunkai, even for a sportified and lonely judoshugyosha.

The "walking" I also recognize because I've been doing that for a while. Red light, green light can be done in that funny judo-style gliding on the mat tsugi-ashi (anyone whose foot is not even with the mat, even when taking it off the floor to continue on, goes to the back). Of course, no one really walks that way so I use the word "glide" to describe it.

Finally (Yes, I've got a rep with some of you for not doing enough of it), I'll shut up, right after I finish my epilogue.;)

I have learned more about striking in this thread than in the forty something post which I read before this one. Why? It was written for children. No matter what the age, newcomers or old leavers, this I can picture. I don't mean I could acually do it at all, but I "get" it (said with a slightly sarcastic accent). Not a bad thing to approach it from a child's level of understanding at all. I doubt most would have gotten to wherever they are without that type of codified instruction.
*****

Yeah, those who try to understand terms thrown around in my little "good budo" forum can't do it, or do know it but refuse to do anything "sportified." That's OK. I have fond memories of the "all-out" fighting in the tournaments I attended for 19 years (the quote around "all-out" is because it is a rule of the founder[s] who insisted that one do nothing less. Rules? Sure. But aren't there rules of the bushi, samurai, street fighters? Aren't each and every fight fraught with on-the-mark rules, the surface, what weapons can be used or what is laying around that can be used as a weapon? Isn't there ma-ai? Doesn't the presence of alcohol/drugs evoke certain other types of the rules of combat? Doesn't the effort one goes through even on the mat suddenly come forth? What exactly is the "rule of combat?"

Well, if not, I suppose I have wasted my time, right? "Well, if you're happy doing what you...." I've heard it so often, I can say it in five languages (not really, but one does put up with a lot. It makes for good learnin'.
*****

Anyway, my TRUE purpose was to say I've not enjoyed the conversation here in a long, long time. It was tough to get through it, but I managed to learn something.

I recently heard a question concerning what another said he found disturbing. He was speaking about Okinawan 'te arts mainly, but Japanese too, and said basically that was it just him, or has there been an explosion in the number of kata, and in some dojo, a real lack of anything truly martial.

Anyway, this is one really "good budo" forum. I should check in more often, but next time I'll keep my type shut.

Respectfully,

Mark "hehe, you're judoka, hehe" F.

CEB
6th January 2002, 18:20
Hi Joe

I'm going to embrass myself here but I just practiced Saifa this morning and I set down heel first on the first step of the kata. I just don't think about a lot of the things I do, I just do it. The heel step is what I do.

This ties nicely to a point that Mr. Yamakura makes from time to time. I was at the annual GKK training in Toledo one year and someone asked Yamakura Sensei how exactly the first step in Saifa is executed. Mr. Yamakura said 'it just goes!' he made the point that if we break the movement down we risk creating new movements that do not belong and this would ruin the whole idea of the kata. The point being to 'Keep on Truckin'.

There is a group of Goju people in Indiana that have broken saifa down so far that it is know longer functional IMO. They broken the first step down into 3 seperate stances. first they step out to a LONG Zenkutsu dachi facin 12:00. They they turn 9:00 in the front stance. The then they pull left leg up to the right leg into the masuba dachi. They were long time USKA people. Possibly the stepping movements were broken down sharpen up the appearence of the form for tournament purposes. My guess is that someone long time ago asked their sensei ' Exactly how do you step out in kata Saifa and Sensei broke it down for students thus new movements were created.

Ed Boyd

Joseph Svinth
6th January 2002, 23:44
Ed --

Who sez ya can't learn by reading? Now you just have to go tell all your students, "In future, do as I do, and not as I say!"

Mark --

Now you know how I feel in judo.

The world at large:

I used to teach kata by the numbers, with descriptions similar to the ones that I linked to above. Then I realized that such descriptions put me to sleep, so presumably they bored everyone else even more. Worse, even though I'd written the words, I wasn't able to remember all that detail.

So for awhile I didn't do kata at all. I mean, if kata was just an Arthur Murray dance routine, why bother?

But gradually I went back, this time telling stories, stories called bunkai. Turns out that I can remember stories. And at this point I started learning some neat things from the kata, things I might not have picked up otherwise.

Okay, I admit that my stories may not be Poohbah's school solution stories. But that's okay: I'm not learning the stories to pass Poohbah's test. After all, if I need a new black belt to replace the one that shrank in the closet, I know where to buy one. Nor am I teaching the stories so that one size fits all. Instead, I'm simply telling my story. Sure, my story has to fit the genre. Like haiku, tanka, and senryu, the syllables are prescribed. But within that framework, the story is my own.

Your mileage may vary.

And that's the way it ought to be.

CEB
7th January 2002, 00:59
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Ed --

Who sez ya can't learn by reading? Now you just have to go tell all your students, "In future, do as I do, and not as I say!"



Oh no, I don't lecture when I have to teach for the above reasons. I try to limit my speech to "Do This" then show by example. Or "Don't do this because" then show an example of the consenquences.
I'm not a teacher just an old timer practicioner. We are fortunate to have about a dozen active dans in our program and seven of them are good teachers. I try to only teach brown belts and yudansha. It easier to teach a class that can teach themselves. :)

We let the brown belts and shodans lead classes so often in order that they get the teaching experience under their belt . The old guys don't get to teach much anymore. That works for me. I like to just work out and just chime in when its needed.

Joseph Svinth
8th January 2002, 12:04
Ed --

I guess it's you and me here, bud. Dang.

Opening sequence.

SITUATION: The rascal (aka attacker) is facing you. He plans on punching you in the nose using a straight-line, railroad track attack. (Which hand doesn't matter.) He then plans on tackling you and taking you to the ground.

Attacker is strong, enthusiastic, and adequately trained.

YOUR RESPONSE.

1. You want to get off his line of attack. Thus you step to his outside, using the R. Crumb step. You must step briskly, or he runs you over.

1.1. You pivot on the lead heel and step up feet together (musubi dachi).

1.2. At the same time, you hook to his head using your lead hand. Your target on his head is the jaw joint. The power comes from the hip rotation rather than the arm; if you time this right, it's almost as straight shot to his head.

2. Attacker isn't stupid; he ducks his head away.

2.1. Rather than giving up your center and chasing him with the hook, you continue accelerating the strike into your back palm, which is held sternum high. Ricochet your punch back into his face, using the momentum. (Be careful if doing this with a partner, as this ricochet is probably faster than you expect.)

2.2. Simultaneously step back into the horse and prepare to receive his charge. (He's ducked away, but has decided to recover by tackling you.)

Since he's charging your lead elbow (e.g., the arm doing the backfist) must remain on your centerline. Otherwise, even if you've smacked him in the philtrum (the spot below the nose and above the lip that you're targeting), his momentum is likely to collapse your guard and let him grab hold, which in turn gives him a moment to recover.

OVERALL: The timing is essentially a 1-2. (You step long, rotate, strike, then you backfist/step back/root.)

ALTERNATIVES: The step and hooking motion also works for getting around a boxing-style guard. In this case, the back hand seizes his guard hand (the one you've wrapped around), and the step back pulls him offbalance, and into your backfist. Otherwise the movement and basic pattern is the same.

The key, though, is that first step -- you must get off the railroad tracks!

kusanku
9th January 2002, 00:13
Hi Mark, Joe, Ed-
Just got back online here.

Interesting thread., I don't know saifa kata though someone in Indiana ran me through it a few times, so I can't really bunkai it very well.

Sounds like you got it under control between you and Ed though.

That walking thing , we did that in Judo too, see Mark?You aren't the only one.:D

Does remind me of some those Pa Kua guys I know though.

Ed, I think I know who you mean about that too much breakdown thing, but I not gonna name anyone. Around Anderson especially.:D

However, I too learned much listening to this thread, good articles too, as always Joe, how come your Google engine finds more stuff than mine does, anyway?:D

Take care all, gonna check out the other threads,
John

CEB
10th January 2002, 04:49
I think it was either 96 or 97. I'm not positive about the year. I was at a class being taught by Takayoshi Nagamine in Peoria IL at Mr. Koeppel's annual event. Nagamine Sensei taught an application against classical chudan seiken tsuski. Basically same body change as Saifa. The cross body punch was a kensetsu waza against the elbow of tori's punching arm. I believe it may have been a Matsubayashi Ryu application of Naihanchi Shodan. Very similar to an arm bar I work from opening sequence of Saifa. Guess there are only so many ways to "Fight Real Good".

The Kick.
After you repeat the opening sequence 3 times, you go forward and 45 degrees to the left. This sabaki movement is similiar to the ones in the begining. If this is so then your advesary should be to your right side. Next you front kick to 12:00, But you are looking to 3:00 where the bad guy should. My teacher told me the technique is really kensetsu geri to the back of the bad guys knee to your right (If you step deep enough the angle of the kick is almost like a back kick), The kata just shows mae geri. (Actually we do work the Mae geri in Yaksoku kumite drills.) Joe have you heard the real kick really being Kensetsu geri theory.

Ed Boyd

Joseph Svinth
10th January 2002, 08:47
Ed --

I hadn't heard about the kensetsu geri kick to the back of the knee. Hmm.

The dropping hand block works very nicely, though -- I unintentionally broke a student's toe that way once, so I know it works.

For this portion of the kata, I have school solutions, but no bunkai that I really like. I'm wondering if perhaps the attack has something to do with a judo-style grip and attempt to throw, but I haven't played with it enough to know if this is a step in the right direction, or if I'm headed off the path again.

kusanku
11th January 2002, 00:22
Ed-yep, I am familiar with that appliaition from Naihanchi One, also done in Kenpo, also in kata wansu/wanshu. among others.
Works well by the way.

Joe, that sounds interesting, if I knew the kata it would give me more of a clue.

However, in general, what works is this:If it works, works efficiently, and works on most everyone on whom you try it, its a good application, if:

It protects or enables you to protect your vital points and areas whilst applying, and if:

It makes sense in terms of the move immediately before and immediately after it. I do not say, as do some , that kata applications always are in order or sequence, they aren't.

But there seems to be a three move overlap, or a three technique overlap, in most kata thus one can start from any move, and go back to the one before, or the one after, to get some context, as sometimes the previous move is a failure and the next a backup, and so forth.

Also,, moves can be a response to what the opponent is doing to you, which can be illustrated in the previous movement, or what you do in the move may be countered by the next one.

These aren't hard and fast rules or anything, some feel that there are such rules, I don't, but they are pointers to maybe thinking in such ways as to derive more and cooler stuff, .

Another thing, is that moves may be shown in reverse order in the kata, this was deliberate,so beginners master the movement but not the more effective uses of it, like, a step maybe a backwards step intead of a forward one, and so on, or a 'punch, which may as Ed said, be a lock, preceeds the block, which turns out to be a strike or punch to a vital point.

Thus, whilst cussing up a storm at the kata inventor who is laughing at you from beyond, there are these templates to apply, and some others too, to try and figure out a few of the things they may have had in mind, doggone them:D

I put a few of these online some while ago, a Google search for Genjumin's world, online at the Baylor University Karate Club website maintained by my friend James Melton, will yield a slew of articles on kata analysis, tailored for Shotokan but generally style neutral overall.

A compilation of stuff I was taught, figured out, or just plain guessed or stumbled into or figured out on my own or with the help of the Taiji Classics and other Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese sources, some literary and some living.

Nothing supersecret or terribly advanced or anything, just a few basics.

Regards,
John

Joseph Svinth
11th January 2002, 20:03
John --

You're in zenkutsu dachi, right foot forward. Your right elbow is on centerline, and your hand is shoulder high, palm is up, as if a waiter carrying a tray. (Probably a thumb strike.) Your left hand is down in front of your thigh, palm down, probably blocking a kick.

Step up, feet together.

Step left, hachiji dachi. Change hands (e.g., right down, left up) and simultaneously front snap kick right. The kick is no higher than the groin.

Step right, hachiji dachi, and repeat the pattern on the other side.

***

My rule of thumb for proper bunkai is simple. I get a lower ranked person weighing under 130 pounds doing the application, and a higher ranked person weighing at least 230 pounds doing the attack. The attacker isn't there to hurt the defender, but is to do the attack with perfect form, perfect center, and the full expectation that the technique should work. He is not free to improvise the attack. That is, if the attack shows him grabbing defender's right wrist, he doesn't punch defender in the face prior to grabbing. But the grip itself should be as perfect as he knows how to do it, and he is free to shift his center all he wants.

I figure that if defender can make the kata technique work at least 75% of the time under these conditions, then it is a good bunkai. If attacker falls like a ton of bricks with no effort on defender's part, then this is probably dojo school solution. (There may be better, but one good 'un is good enough for me.)

As for the official school solutions, well, have you seen Paul Okami's tapes? If that's the way you do kata (and what you believe bunkai to be), then my advice is that you quit doing kata and take up taebo.

CEB
11th January 2002, 20:49
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Ed --

For this portion of the kata, I have school solutions, but no bunkai that I really like. I'm wondering if perhaps the attack has something to do with a judo-style grip and attempt to throw, but I haven't played with it enough to know if this is a step in the right direction, or if I'm headed off the path again.

We have 2 sets of Ippon Kumite katas. One set vs Jodan attack and one set against chudan attacks. One of the Ippons is against front kick. You get out of the do the saifa blocking and counter with front kick. Sounds similar to technique you may have been doing when you broke your student's toe.


Ed

CEB
11th January 2002, 21:10
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


As for the official school solutions, well, have you seen Paul Okami's tapes? If that's the way you do kata (and what you believe bunkai to be), then my advice is that you quit doing kata and take up taebo.

No, I didn't know about the tapes. I can't learn from tape anyway. I too slow a learner.

I know who Paul Okami is. He was or is a Yondan in the GKK. What's wrong with Mr. Okami I always thought he moved pretty well for a white guy. Have not heard anything about him in a very long time. If he is still GKK he may have become inactive. Well anyway maybe we are similar since we are both GKK I don't know. Sounds like I may not measure up to you enough for you to want to talk to me anymore. I'll let you go. Sorry if I'm not good enough. I'm just someone who has been at it a long time and refuses to quit, out of habit I guess. Maybe you are right and I should quit and take up taebo but I can't afford taebo so I'll keep doing kata. Best wishes, take care.

Ed Boyd

John, my boy is going to start going to some USKK and PKC tournament, so I might catch you in Indiana someday, maybe in Kokomo.

Joseph Svinth
12th January 2002, 01:46
Sorry, Ed, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, nor was I referring to you in my references. Remember, all I know of Okami is his tapes. Based solely on what he showed on those tapes, I'd guess he was probably an ikkyu or shodan at the time he made them, and presumably he's improved in the years since then.

But the bunkai shown on those tapes really is inane.

kusanku
12th January 2002, 06:38
Okay, Joe, now I remember that move, it seems to be shifting from an elbow lock(up elbow shoulder crank, into one on other side with a front kick to xiphoid process or into the pectoral or whatever, when they are bent forward the kick is effective so they say.Very very effective if you know what I am getting at.

I have not seen Okami's tapes, what I think is bunkai is Oyata tapes, have you seen them?

But those are not Goju Katas, I thought Higaonna's seisan tapes were good, but the bunkai that Ryuei ryu does for the Naha seisan rocks mondo.

Ed, maybe we will run into one 'nother, sometimes I get to Kokomo, but if not me, you'll probablty see my good friend Tom Ward or of course, Bethea Sensei, Tell 'em John who was from Crawfordsville said Hi!

Anyway, back to the bunkai, Joe,the Goju bunkai have been as a rule made more public in Japan and America, than the Shorin, but the latter certainly do exist, I have compared some of the school solution bunkai with a buddy in Shito Ryu and found them to be similar and sometimes the same as those of Shorin, showintg they go back to maybe Itosu or earlier.

The Goju go back to at least Miyagi and maybe Higaonna and some maybe to China, as do some shorin ones.That having been said, your method of trying out bunkai is fine and sound.If they go down with little effort and like ton of bricks, fine bunkai.

Seems pretty much identical to the way I test them, they really should work for anyone on almost anyone, if properly formulated.

Some the Johnny -come -latelies who get into this stuff, and they are quite welcome, rely a bit too much on the locking and pressure points/kyusho, when in fact, the Holy Three is what I use, they being, interception, evasion and unbalancing.

Proper body mechanics make the stuff work, a la judo done well,whether it hurts the other fellow , hits a point, locks with technique, or not.

Interception means get the hands/leg up in the way of the attack, evasion is tai sabaki and ashi sabaki and tai kawashi, body turning, footwork and blending inside the line of attack, or outside, and angles, and unbalancing means when you contact them they lose power and focus because lose balance. a la kakie, push or pull off to an angle or away, and they go beyond the base of the heel, toe or side of foot, lose it completely, and then if you still need to, you can apply the actual waza.:D

The Devil's Own techniques, those are.Screw 'Em Up Waza.:-)

Thus, in any lock as densho for jiujitsu and books for chin na tell us, there are three places at least you can strike, previous to the technique or at the beginning, during the technique, and after the technique, to distract or weaken, to assist, and to finish, respectively.

In a perfect world, of course.In actual practice in the middle of a Brannigan, it is hard to apply the Jivaro Thumblock:D correctly if at all, this is more a matter of either greater skill or luck.Or someone just asks for it, leaving an open hand out in reach for instance, snap and down they go, fold,wrap, bend , torque spindle and mutilate.

What generally works was mentioned years ago by Bruce Tegner, and the guy was right, jointlocks are hard to do in self defense, judo throws and kicks and blows are better.

But if some one grabs you( the idiot:-), jointlocking for fun and profit becomes the order of the day .

Having said that, I have a little interception drill taken from the opening moves of certain shorin ryu kata called the Eight Hands, which I use to teach reflexive interception and setting up follow up striking leading into locking, and taking down.A teacher of mine gave me the idea when he used the moves on me, with great success.:-)

Also, at more advanced levels, the attacking limb can be trapped betwen the arms and elbows, using kata maneuvers with tai sabaki, and the hands left free to whale as needed. This is really class stuff too, if one is hep to it.

:DPa Kua people are particularly annoying in this area.And they say so and take some pride in this.

I mention this because the saifa moves you describe look to me as if they could be utilized in this fashion by a skilled, devious and mean practitioner.The one eighty turn would then be a break of the trapped elbow of opponent, henceforth known as Idiot, who went and left his hyperextended arm stuck between your own.

Damned clumsy of him too.:D(Hah! Gotcha!Punch attempt.'Bad Shot, Old Man."Crank and crack.)

CEB
13th January 2002, 23:23
Originally posted by kusanku


Ed, maybe we will run into one 'nother, sometimes I get to Kokomo, but if not me, you'll probablty see my good friend Tom Ward or of course, Bethea Sensei, Tell 'em John who was from Crawfordsville said Hi!



Funny you should mention Tom Ward. Just back from two days of class under Kimo Wall Sensei in Peoria IL. Tom was there. I told him you said hi. We had a good visit during our Saturday afternoon water break. Mr Bethea is doing well.

kusanku
14th January 2002, 06:24
knew Tom was going to that, he had told me of it, wondered if you mightn't be there too. Hear that was good stuff.

Take Care now,
John