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Mike Collins
22nd July 2000, 02:17
Okay, If Osensei were to fight He-Man, who'd win?

How about Man at Arms?

She-Ra?

I have been reading a couple of weeks worth of posts and cracking up. E Budo seems to have devolved a bit since the crash. There were several really thoughtful posts before, and lately it seems to be about the same argument- Is Aikido the supreme art for taking life and pulling the heart of our partner and feeding it to them while it keeps beating.

Here is my real topic- What do you suppose Morehei Ueshiba would say if he were to see you (yes, you not your teacher) training?

I think in my case he might shake his head, chuckle a bit and say "keep at it, but don't quit yer day job fatso". I think he'd approve of the art but not the work ethic.

What about you guys (and women)? Please don't be too deferential and self effacing, I'm dying to see what people really think about their own weaknesses and strengths.

Budoka
22nd July 2000, 21:29
Would Man-At-Arms be able to use his weapons? Or would it be hand to hand?

Would He-Man have the Power of Greyskull to back him up?

See, I'd like to know who would win, O Sensei, or Splinter?

--
Fecitiously Yours,
Jared Riggs

DJM
22nd July 2000, 22:10
Originally posted by Mike Collins
*snip*
I have been reading a couple of weeks worth of posts and cracking up. E Budo seems to have devolved a bit since the crash. There were several really thoughtful posts before, and lately it seems to be about the same argument- Is Aikido the supreme art for taking life and pulling the heart of our partner and feeding it to them while it keeps beating.

Here is my real topic- What do you suppose Morehei Ueshiba would say if he were to see you (yes, you not your teacher) training?
*snip*

Mike,
With all due respect, I think you might be at risk of over-reaction here.. ;)
Last time I checked there was one thread about Aikido and combat - and that one has pretty much, to my mind, panned out as being down to PaciFism vs PassiVism (i.e. no-one actually wanting to kill anyone)...
That said I'll get onto topic - if I knew what O Sensei would say about my training I'd be due the fastest rise from 6th kyu (currently :)) to 10th dan I've ever heard of!! ;)
All joking aside though, I think my biggest problem lies in trust - mainly myself, but sometimes my tori too.. My breakfalls are a lot crisper in kakarigeiko than they are in kata-style practice, mainly because I don't have time to doubt, or worry, or think.. That's my big problem.. A smaller problem is trying to over-analyse things sometimes, instead of 'just doing' them...
My strengths? I haven't been practicing long enough to really have any - ask me again in a year or ten.. :)

To answer Jared - doesn't matter if Man-At-Arms has his weapons, or He-Man has super-strength.. I can imagine (worrying, I know) He-Man's strength propelling him a few miles...
As far as Splinter, well it depends on whether or not he has combat trained fleas to help out...
:D

Peace,
David

Kolschey
22nd July 2000, 22:37
As a big Transformers fan, well, I'd have to put my money on Optimus Prime. I mean, O sensei is one with the universe, but that's probably balanced by the Matrix,which Optimus has housed in his chest. And can O-sensei change himself into an eighteen wheel truck? It would be a close call, though! :)

Seriously, though, I think that most martial arts practtioners go through a period of asking whether their art is truly effective. It is always good to evaluate one's training, to see if the methodology is consistent with your desired objectives. In any art, even the softer looking techniques can hold surprises. I guess you could say " More than meets the eye!"

Sorry, just couldn't resist that last bit!

Gil Gillespie
23rd July 2000, 02:22
Hi Mike

I'm taking your topic as O-Sensei's view of my training today, though you took an interesting way of getting there and will probably elicit some whacko responses. In our (ASU)Aikido his portrait hangs in the Tokonoma symbolizing his presence. Others (Ki Society, [seemingly] Reynosa's people, et al) elect not to. So I've been taught from day one to train as if I were before O-Sensei.

So my hope would be that during these 12 years I have endeavored to meet the goals he set down for training and never performed frivolously before his portrait. I don't train to defeat anyone or learn to fight. The dojo is the crucible of my refining of myself. If O-Sensei were to know that and see the quality group of people who comprise our dojo, he'd know some one got the joke.

Mike Collins
23rd July 2000, 05:02
Yeah Gil, but what would he say? Would he think your technique was (even if not fully developed) on the right track? Would he think your mindset was good? Would he be pissed off that you refused to stop muscling (probably, at me)? I just want to get a thread going where we think sincerely about how close our training is to his intent.

I hope this can start some real thought.

Gil Gillespie
24th July 2000, 14:20
What would O-Sensei SAY upon observing my training? I imagine a roll of his eyes and deep sigh would say it all. . . Like Casey Stengel immortalized when managing the original Mets: "Can't anybody here play this game?" I can imagine he would echo my sensei's concern that SOMEDAY SOMHOW I should learn to move from my center and stop stuggling so much! Looking at me he may even resort to a katsu whack to the head.

As to his intent, I think you may have unleashed the hounds here, Mike, but that's a good thing! Standing in an American dojo watching all these disparate expressions of his art I have to think he would be pleased at the internationalization of aikido. America's fractionalized superficial values would alarm and sadden him. I think he would see our dojo as a refuge from all that, as we do when we enter.

Personally, I think he'd be pleased with my training ethic. Within the increasingly tightening limits of my age & physical condition I train honestly and joyfully. Our dojo is festooned with Saotome's calligraphy and as our shihan, with his spirit. I have to think O-Sensei would be especially pleased with one of Saotome's regional seminars--at the quality of budo and quality of people before him.

George Ledyard
24th July 2000, 15:17
Originally posted by Mike Collins

Here is my real topic- What do you suppose Morehei Ueshiba would say if he were to see you (yes, you not your teacher) training?

Saotome Sensei once told us a story about O-sensei that I think is revealing. The deshi had been out on the town. One of the things they were apt to do in those days was get into fights with the American occupation troops (this let them practice their stuff and besides it let them make up a bit for losing the war). Anyway, O-sensei caught a group of them returning home in the wee hours and gave them a big lecture, "Aikido is not for fighting. When you misuse the art this way you area destroying the Spirit of Aikido!.... Did you win?"

A lot of the kind of exchange you see on the forum is actually for a lot of folks a working out of how they actually do feel about these issues. They are certainly right to wonder if what they are doing works as there is a lot of Aikido being done that isn't effective. Aikido has a split personality and it can't quite decide what it should be. This is I think the result of the fact that very few of the practitioners today have trained directly with the Founder or with one of his direct students. Many teachers of Aikido really only know O-Sensei through the very limited amount of his writings that are translated into English and the small amount of video footage that exists, most of which was not representative of what he taught to his direct students but instead was for public consumption. This makes for a lot of confusion and results in the huge variety of opinion about what the art should be. I see no prospect for change from the current situation in which some Aikido practitioners look aghast at what some others are doing and visa versa. Anyway, I don't know anyone who goes out looking for fights to test his abilities any more. So you will probably continue to see these types of discussions baecsue they serve to give students a way to wonder about these issues without the need to go out there and try their stuff.

[Edited by George Ledyard on 07-24-2000 at 09:20 AM]

Mike Collins
24th July 2000, 22:43
I agree that effectiveness is important. I want us to also, and maybe mostly, to be thinking about whether we are doing Aikido- teachers and students alike- in a way that Osensei would approve of, even if not heartily endorse.

There are definitely some fruitloops who are doing some stuff that bears no resemblance to Aikido in intent or content. We should see them for what they are and move on.

There are also some people who are practicing what they perceive as Aikido with a completely sincere intent, if the martial aspect is a bit weak, maybe the energy is good and this has merit (if not the whole of Osensei's teachings, maybe a part).

There are those who are practicing sincere Aikido with a serious bite. This has its' merits also (again not the whole story, but part).

And there are some who are doing their best to combine both and probably fall short of really good Aikido, but I think they are on the right track too.

Then there are those who are practicing bujutsu and calling it Aikido, then saying that too many schools of Aikido are weak and not true budo. In my humble opinion, Osensei would have disapproved and been very clear about his disapproval.

So, the question remains- What would have Osensei said, had he had the chance to watch your individual practice?

Or--- Am I just a crackpot? This being America and all I have the right to be you know?

Gil Gillespie
25th July 2000, 02:16
I'm thinking we need more crackpots like you, Mike Collins. Keep your posts & topics comin'. I hope they elicit the spirited thoughtful dialogs that validate this whole website.

Paul Schweer
25th July 2000, 11:58
Originally posted by Mike Collins

There are definitely some fruitloops who are doing some stuff that bears no resemblance to Aikido in intent or content….

There are also some people who are practicing what they perceive as Aikido with a completely sincere intent, if the martial aspect is a bit weak….

There are those who are practicing sincere Aikido with a serious bite… again not the whole story, but part…..

And there are some who are doing their best to combine both and probably fall short of really good Aikido, but I think they are on the right track too.

Then there are those who are practicing bujutsu and calling it Aikido, then saying that too many schools of Aikido are weak and not true budo. In my humble opinion, Osensei would have disapproved and been very clear about his disapproval.

So, the question remains- What would have Osensei said, had he had the chance to watch your individual practice?

What would Tiger Woods say if he saw my swing? Would Martin Luther approve of my religious studies?

Mike, I’m not now and never gonna be Mozart or Michael Jordan or Carlos friggin Hathcock; but music, basketball, and marksmanship have all been there for me when I needed them. Each has played a large and beneficial roll in my life, and I’ve excelled at exactly none of them.

God gave us the genius for inspiration, and the dunce for our instruction. I think most of us get to play the role of both, depending on who is looking at us. Either way we’re obliged to always give our best, all the way, every time; no matter who is looking or what they might say – and for today, that will have to be good enough.

Of course tomorrow we have to do it again.

Dennis Hooker
25th July 2000, 21:27
Mike, have you by change read my thesis on Geographic Superiority in Budo, sponsored my Lighten Up, makers of sedatives for up tight Aikidoka. It addresses some of these issues I believe.





Originally posted by Mike Collins
I agree that effectiveness is important. I want us to also, and maybe mostly, to be thinking about whether we are doing Aikido- teachers and students alike- in a way that Osensei would approve of, even if not heartily endorse.

There are definitely some fruitloops who are doing some stuff that bears no resemblance to Aikido in intent or content. We should see them for what they are and move on.

There are also some people who are practicing what they perceive as Aikido with a completely sincere intent, if the martial aspect is a bit weak, maybe the energy is good and this has merit (if not the whole of Osensei's teachings, maybe a part).

There are those who are practicing sincere Aikido with a serious bite. This has its' merits also (again not the whole story, but part).

And there are some who are doing their best to combine both and probably fall short of really good Aikido, but I think they are on the right track too.

Then there are those who are practicing bujutsu and calling it Aikido, then saying that too many schools of Aikido are weak and not true budo. In my humble opinion, Osensei would have disapproved and been very clear about his disapproval.

So, the question remains- What would have Osensei said, had he had the chance to watch your individual practice?

Or--- Am I just a crackpot? This being America and all I have the right to be you know?

Mike Collins
26th July 2000, 00:09
Nope, missed that one. Wouldn't even know where to look.

Dennis Hooker
26th July 2000, 13:58
Mike I tried to send this private but it didn't work that way.

Superiority in Budo

Scientific Proof of Climate and Geographic Superiority in Budo (Sponsored by LIGHTEN-UP, the Makers of Sedatives for Uptight Aikidoka)

After reading so much of the well thought out dialog by first and second year Aikido students (and some teachers who act like they are) regarding the proper way to study Aikido and the proper school to belong to, the social research lab at Middlelander University dedicated itself to identifying the best possible school of Aikido and what factors make it so. Given the dialog, the weight, and consideration it deserves, we offer the following.

Our science project has taken us all over this country. As we stand here at the southernmost tip of Florida and look to the north across this great natation we view the wondrous variety of its people. We look to the left and see the Left Coast with all those strangely liberal people and their liberal ways. This is reflected in their Aikido, as it should be.

As we look to the right, we see the Right Coast with all those bizarre conservative people and their conservative ways. In their Aikido you can see their conservativeness. They are reluctant to shift from convention and do strange things in new ways and call it Aikido, as do those liberal nuts on the Left coast. Those on the Left coast can not contain themselves with such absurd rigidity as those conservative quacks on the Right coast. They must reach out with their feelings and become Luke Skywalkerish in their thinking, as they strive to be Obi-Wan.

If we tilt our head just right, we can view the heartland with those wonderful moderate folks. They occupy the Middle Land, and though we consider ourselves part of them we are being totally objective in this study. They are the most wonderful people in the world (a good looking and intelligent people too). Their middle ways and logical thinking are carried over into their Aikido.

Being moderate, they can take from the strange Left and Bizarre Right those attributes deemed good and leave the rest. They can do this because they are from the middle land, a superior breed of people. It has nothing to do with religion, race, sex, or sexual orientation. It has to do with geography. If a Left Coast nut would establish residence in the Middleland that person would soon lose their distorted method of thinking and acting and become a Middlelander. The same applies to a Right Coast conservative bizarreo. Their tendency to kill and maim like the badass Niko and mighty Rambo would soon be lost amoung so many righteous people like the Middlelanders. The Middlelanders organize under different names as do the strange and bizarre peoples. However, there is a collective Middlelander thought shared by all groups. That is a knowledge of superiorory over the Left and Right peoples.

The method of thinking is different between the middlelanders and the strange Left and bizarre Right. The middlelanders go with the old axiom that: "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." The bizarre Right says: "I disagree with what you say and I will kill you if you say it again." The strange Left says: "I disagree with what you say and I will kill myself if you say it again."

We think we are being extremely open minded in our evaluation of the Aikido population in this country. The logic of this rationale has to do with geography and climate-induced thought patterns. The strange Left Coasters live much of their life outside. This is because the weather is so hospitable. With that much open sky and semi-clean air there is nothing to hold the mind inside. The thoughts drift out and open space drifts in (thus the term "air-head"). With so much free-radical Aikido thought floating in the air, held under layers of pollution, it is no wonder there appears to be spontaneous births of AIKIDO MASTERS on the Left coast. We can find no other explanation for ***SENSEI*** who have no history of Aikido Study or identifiable teachers. Their Aikido Knowledge must have been gained through osmosis brought on by geography and climate.

On the other hand the bizarre Right coasters spend much of their time indoors. Without the freedom of the open spaces, there thoughts are repressed inside during long cold winters and short hot summers. At the first sign of provocation, there pent-up repression comes pouring out in the form of a devastating right cross to the jaw (thus the term "radical right"). The Right coast also has its share of spontaneous ***SENSEIing*** of unsuspecting people. The geography and climate causes many days of isolation in dark cold dwellings where the osmosis takes place from the pages of books, magazines, and the glitter of the VCR.

The middlelanders, however (by the way, did we mention we are part of them, but are being totally openminded in this study), have a perfect balance between repression and liberation. Mild winters and warm summers provide a perfect balance for nurturing a complete and nearly perfect human being (thus the term "god-like"). The phenomenon of spontaneous ***SENSEIing*** does not take place in the Middleland as there is always an opportunity to take at least one class and see at least one real sensei before becoming an AIKIDO MASTER.

The strange and bizarre peoples hold us (them) in awe, which is understandable now that we have shown beyond a doubt the scientific proof of geographic and climate induced superiority in budo.

Dennis Hooker
Shindai Aikikai
Orlando Fl.
ASU



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Originally posted by Mike Collins
Nope, missed that one. Wouldn't even know where to look.

Mike Collins
26th July 2000, 16:40
Well hell, that makes perfect sense(i), I guess I'll move to Kansas right now! Is there anything a tried and true hippie wierdo freak commie pinko left coaster can do to prevent the mind numbing boredom that takes place in the middle, though?

The middle ground is the place where mediocrity, middling health, meddlesomeness and mild temparatures all reside. How do you, obviously superior persons, stay awake?

If this don't make me a loved human being, nothing will!!!

Budoka
26th July 2000, 19:02
Funny. . . the Obi Wan I know killed a guy and cut off another's arm in a bar brawl in his old age. . . and cut a Sith in half in his youth.

Exactly which aikido principle does he represent again?

--
Vi Cit Tecum,
Jared Riggs

BC
26th July 2000, 21:30
The middle is also where the center is!

Yeah, so I'm being redundant...

If O Sensei were watching me on the mat, I would most likely trip over my own fat toe and fall flat on my face (Murphy's law). Given that extraordinary demonstration of poise and grace, how do you think he would react? - I HOPE I could at least get a giggle out of him...

-BC