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BtC
12th January 2002, 17:49
Hi,

I'm a judoka who's thinking about joining aikido as a complement to judo. What can I expect at an average class at an average club? How is aikido randori different from judo randori?

thanks

Conner Bond

Robert Cowham
12th January 2002, 19:48
I would suggest sucking it and seeing! (and try several dojos). There aren't many "average" clubs around....

Having had a couple of judoka at our dojo (one shodan one sandan) they seemed a bit on the hard side to me, but they may not be representative.

Robert

PRehse
12th January 2002, 20:42
Depends on the style.

Kenji Tomiki took alot of Judo and applied it to Aikido.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/index_e.html
Click on the history link.

I got drunk last summer with a 6 Dan Kodokan Judo/7 Dan Tomiki Aikido man who basically told me - now you must do Judo. I guess the converse is also true.

don
12th January 2002, 21:11
"I'm a judoka who's thinking about joining aikido as a complement to judo. What can I expect at an average class at an average club?"

As suggested, 'There aren't many "average" clubs around....' However, there are some constants. In my experience,

1) There will be a short period of stretching with no warm-up, per se. My old body needs more and more preparation with the years, so I arrive early and run a few laps and/or do jumping jacks to get myself warm and pliable.

There will also likely be breathing exercises with a blurry distinction between physical preparation and spiritual invocation. Aikido bears the legacy of its founder's strict adherence to ascetic shinto practices, and this can be seen in the rather fleeting practices of rowing and, because I've forgotten the Jpn terms for these, belly shaking (both hands clasped in front of stomach and hands bounced up and down vigorously.) According to Saotome, a close student of the founder, they would do this for an hour or more while training in Iwama, and it would leave them sweating and something like intoxicated. In the course of a class these days, however, it's done for no more than two minutes or so.

2) The instructor will demonstrate a technique and students will pair off and practice. Lower ranks will do only that technique; upper ranks may use that technique as a springboard to practice other things, working at the principle beneath. This will depend on the teacher's attitude. Some like everybody to follow HIS/HER technique to the letter. Interestingly, the founder never even repeated a technique while demonstrating, so students had to figure out what to do for themselves anyway.

3) Partners will cooperate, for the most part, particularly with students at lower levels. Upper level students may give each other a harder time. Execution of technique is similar to kata, indeed some have called it kata, (though most aikidoka tend to consider it kihon). Nage and uke both know the attack and the defense, and strive to perform them authentically despite the artificiality of the set-up. When nage takes uke's balance effectively and is him/herself stable, uke will not usually struggle against being thrown (similar to uchikome (sp?). We practice aikido as Draeger and Ishikawa recommend for judo kata in "Judo Training Methods : A Sourcebook" (Tuttle Martial Arts) where they say that judo kata need not be followed slavishly and formally, but used as a springboard to practice application with different permutations of attack and defense.

4) Class often finishes with kokyo ho, a seated exercise where one partner grasps both hands of the other. Nage attempts to blend with the force of the attack and throw uke over. Many will pull out techniques to accomplish this, but I think this is a more fundamental exercise than this, the purpose being to get a feel for the attack and deal with it at a very basic level of connection. Technique is a non-sequitur.

"How is aikido randori different from judo randori?"

Aikido randori usually involves more than one person attacking a nage. It runs a gamut from dance-like attacks with uke throwing themselves upon slightest contact with nage to carnivorous mauling of nage by uke when possible. The former is more common than the latter. It's not competitive and after throwing one, nage remains vigilant to other attacks, a contrast startling to me when I did some judo and found the practitioners wholly bereft of zanshin: "Ippon! Now comes Miller time!"

What you may experience is the impulse to take your nage over your hip when weak points occur in his/her execution. This will probably be frowned on. My judo comrades didn't much take to me throwing on a wrist lock when they took hold of my sleeve, either.

I can't imagine a judoka practicing aikido without thinking how fake it is; we resist so little. Otoh, what we do, judo doesn't (kote gaeshi, etc.) That is, judo has much of what we do, but relegates it to kata and prohibits it from competition for being too dangerous. There's the trade off. You can look at it as fakery or convention. Judo restricts dangerous techniques; aikido restricts resistance.

Hope this helps. Good luck finding a good dojo.

MarkF
13th January 2002, 12:04
Originally posted by don
Judo restricts dangerous techniques; aikido restricts resistance.


Yes, you may call it a tradeoff, but it isn't really that simple. I'd say the difference is more in the application of technique. Danger is restricted not to make it "safe" as such, but technique is removed so that a pair doing randori can go all out, as is of course the way of shiai, and can come back the next day instead of next year.;) In fact, it is a rule in Kodokan judo that one does go all out whether in randori or a match, and when sitting, one watches as you just may learn something.

I also emphasize attack drills, too, the difference being that tori and uke can attack fully or resist fully, nor do they know ahead of time how they will be attacked.

I don't think what most in aikido do is kata, either, it is more like randori with even more rules than the IJF/IOC can come up with including nage and uke knowing the attack, but it is more like different strokes since, in the basics, with those principles deep down, aikido and judo are the same thing.

Probably the best thing judoka know when coming to aikido is very good ukemi skills and that is probably the most important technique any of us will ever know until we find out. Finding out isn't fun, but it certainly can save your backside more often than in some pragmatic or "real" fight.
******

Another thing one should read, especially those coming from a judo backround, if you can find a copy or talk someone into making a copy of his/her "copy, is Judo and Aikido by Tomiki Kenji sensei. That is probably the best book I've read on both subjects when taken with a spoon of sugar. It may or may not be the best thing I've read on judo or aikido, but coming from a Kodokan 7 or 8 dan who stylized his aikido along the lines of judo, it is simply a must.

As to what to look for, hard falls, sometimes with less time to protect yourself.

Mark

PS: I don't do aikido but I've had students who have left to do aikido. Some come back, not because they have left the aikido dojo, but be cause somethings are just not covered in the other. I would expect the same the other way around.

Just don't think you know sumi-o-toshi well when it comes up in your training. While it is similar, it is not anywhere near the same nage waza.:smokin:

PRehse
13th January 2002, 18:12
Originally posted by don
[BJudo restricts dangerous techniques; aikido restricts resistance. [/B]
Not necessarily. :wave:

INFINOO
14th January 2002, 03:43
Hello Conner, welcome to E-Budo. If you dont mind , let me start by asking you a question. What made you want to check out Aikido? . My background is in grappling as well (wrestling,jujutsu) and Aikido compliments both arts well IMO. What to expect in Aikido training? In general less grabbing , and more cutting,thrusting motions combined with weaving footwork and turns that may look very simular to sword work even when empty handed. I was taught " You are a sword, or you are holding a sword" , so to speak. Also No sword no Aiki. So in my system there is Weapon training, Sword and or (Bokken) Jo(Stick) Tanto(Knife) right from the beginning. Basic cutting and thrusting with proper breathing and so forth, and then we learn some footwork and lots and lots of rolling(Ukemi) no slapping the mat please:laugh:. We have short and long kata in Ken, Jo, Tanto And taijutsu. Both in paired practice and solo . Whats the difference between Judo and Aikido Randori ? Well, one of my Aiki teachers used to say that the difference between Aiki and jujustu is a step? I think he ment the Mai(combative distance) was greater in Aiki. Although somtimes I think he also ment foot work, as in stepping in directly(Irimi) and turning(tenkan),dropping the weight(Tai-oshi). One bit of advice is in the beginning, take it really easy. When a lock is being applied tap "before" it hurts. The difference between a lock being ineffective, effective and causing damage is razor thin indeed. Be carefull, if your slow in tapping many Nage will keep applying force.:eek: Take care of your joints, especially your wrist and your neck. I was lucky, when I began to train in Aikido one of the seniors in the class, took me under his wing and watched out for me. He used to say " Relax, and go with it" It was good advice, as my Ukemi( receiveing the throw) developed quickly without injury. Keep in mind ,there are many differnt versions of this art called Aikido. The trick is to discover the path thats right for you.
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary ,Alberta, Canada.

Ron Tisdale
14th January 2002, 17:56
Mark said, "I don't think what most in aikido do is kata, either..."

In the case of yoshinkan aikido, I would disagree with this perspective. I think that most of the practise of the 150 basic techniques in shite / uke training **is** kata practise. Thus the highly defined role of uke in the techniques. I have found this to be quite different from other styles and how basic techniques are practised, so what you say might be very true there.

My own personal preference is for this type of practise, because I believe there are many benefits to the more "classical" approach to kata.

As for the original question, I think that your judo training would work very well with yoshinkan, Moshizuki's style, or shodokan aikido.

Nice posts from everyone (including Mark),

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
14th January 2002, 21:32
Hi Ron :nin:



Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Mark said, "I don't think what most in aikido do is kata, either..."

In the case of yoshinkan aikido, I would disagree with this perspective. I think that most of the practise of the 150 basic techniques in shite / uke training **is** kata practise. Thus the highly defined role of uke in the techniques. I have found this to be quite different from other styles and how basic techniques are practised, so what you say might be very true there.


Ron Tisdale

That's why, one can safely say that yoshinkan aikido is NOT a Founder's aikido! :nono:

Founder NEVER did same techniques twice the same way (hardly even did a technique twice....)- and broke with long koryu tradition of kata, to create New Budo "Takemusu aiki, the spontaneous execution of limitless techniques" In this approach he was quite close to judo of Kano sensei.

I'd rather say, judo is all after contact :smash: , aikido is all about BEFORE contact :toast:

Ron Tisdale
14th January 2002, 21:55
Well, I don't know whether or not yoshinkan is "founder's aikido". The founder himself seemed to have no problem with it, and his son and grandson don't seem to have a problem with it either. It is interesting that Inoue Sensei, the current Yoshinkan dojo-cho was given a prominant seat at this past years All Japan Aikido demonstration. You know, for someone who's aikido is not the founder's. Any way, the two people who could really tell us are dead, so the point is moot.

Actually, based on how many in the Daito ryu crowd seem to view aikido and its relationship to the founder, I'm not sure **anyone** is doing founder's aikido. In fact, he himself specifically stated we should be trying to do **our own aikido, not his**.

While many people make much of the founder's statement against kata, there are also many who say that the only way to reach the founder's skill is indeed to retrace at least part of his methods...which included kata. Once the basics are mastered, takemusu becomes possible...not before. Kata can be one way to reach this goal, in my (and others) opinion.

A good read on this subject is Diane Skoss's article on kata in aikido (posted on her site and the aikido journal site as well).

Ron Tisdale

PRehse
14th January 2002, 22:14
Originally posted by szczepan
That's why, one can safely say that yoshinkan aikido is NOT a Founder's aikido! :nono:

Founder NEVER did same techniques twice the same way (hardly even did a technique twice....)- and broke with long koryu tradition of kata, to create New Budo "Takemusu aiki, the spontaneous execution of limitless techniques" In this approach he was quite close to judo of Kano sensei.

I guess by the same argument Aikikai is NOT the founders Aikido either. :D

BtC
15th January 2002, 00:34
Gregory

In practicing Aikido, I'd like to develop my control, timing, kuzushi, tai sabaki, throws, and locks. It would be nice to learn some self defence specific techniques. I assume it would give me a bit of a head start on kata (I'm 14, sankyu [green belt])

Conner Bond

INFINOO
15th January 2002, 01:19
Conner
Thanks for the reply. If you havn't already ,its a good idea to check with your Judo teacher before cross training. Sometimes more traditional teachers resist there students mixing stlyes, some don't. It never hurts to ask. By the way there are usually some decent books on Aikido in Chapters book store, check them out if you have the chance.
Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives International
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

PRehse
15th January 2002, 01:45
Well when it comes right down to it if you are a Judo man wanting a taste of Aikido please read some articles from one of your own.

http://www.tomiki.org/tomikiwritings.html

don
15th January 2002, 02:32
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Mark said, "I don't think what most in aikido do is kata, either..."

In the case of yoshinkan aikido, I would disagree with this perspective. Ron Tisdale

See the AJ interview of Sugano Seiichi at http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=947 :

"One characteristic of aikido training is that it does not only involve that kind of practice, although this was the traditional way in Japanese martial arts. The way aikido is taught these days varies greatly from person to person and it's not surprising that the people learning it are apt to become confused, but this is because aikido does not stick exclusively to kata. The practice of ata as found in Japanese martial arts and in the Japanese arts in general is a means of ransmitting specific ways of doing things. Our modern training isn't like this. It places more emphasis on repetitive practice of techniques. It is much the same type of training that is done in most modern sports, though the concepts on which it is based are different. Aikido has grown very quickly, but I don't think many people realize that one important reason for this is that it has adopted the training methods of ordinary sports. Repetitive practice of numerous techniques is the fundamental training method in any sport. And the training method may vary slightly from coach to coach. Technically speaking, each teacher is likely to have a slightly different feel. The same is true of aikido. Different teachers teach the same technique in different ways.

"I think aikido has grown in this sense. I think the metamorphosis of O-Sensei's techniques from jujutsu into aikido was not something he was clearly conscious of, but it was a natural result of his departure from training methods geared toward transmitting kata created in the past. Using kata as a vehicle preserves tradition, but O-Sensei broke away from that method to pursue the modern practice method we have now. His verbal explanations remained very Japanese, of course, which I think is why many people do not realize how modern his approach was. Old ways of expressing things – words like ki and kokyu, for example – may sound very mysterious to foreign ears. But in the simplest terms, aikido training is a process through which we learn how to use our bodies skillfully, how to work with timing and distance. Training firmly and precisely by performing techniques again and again is the best way to improve."

szczepan
15th January 2002, 03:41
For sure, Sugano sensei said it better than I could ever imagine. There is quite a logic in his idea about kata training and aikido.

Normally I have nothing to add after sensei, but a smalltalk with Ron and PeterR is so interesting that I couldn't resist:


Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Well, I don't know whether or not yoshinkan is "founder's aikido". The founder himself seemed to have no problem with it, and his son and grandson don't seem to have a problem with it either. It is interesting that Inoue Sensei, the current Yoshinkan dojo-cho was given a prominant seat at this past years All Japan Aikido demonstration. You know, for someone who's aikido is not the founder's. Any way, the two people who could really tell us are dead, so the point is moot.

Why Founder could have a problem with Shioda sensei's interpretation of his aikido? I've heard here and there that in reality Founder wasn't interested at all in teaching aikido ;)
Do you think that Inoue sensei has a problem with Your interpretation of his aikido? :laugh: So this way of argumentation seems to me rather weak.

In other argument about seats, I think you confuse western and japanese way of thinking. For Japanese apparences is everything, but of course it has no true meaning about their real jugements.



Actually, based on how many in the Daito ryu crowd seem to view aikido and its relationship to the founder, I'm not sure **anyone** is doing founder's aikido. In fact, he himself specifically stated we should be trying to do **our own aikido, not his**.

While many people make much of the founder's statement against kata, there are also many who say that the only way to reach the founder's skill is indeed to retrace at least part of his methods...which included kata. Once the basics are mastered, takemusu becomes possible...not before. Kata can be one way to reach this goal, in my (and others) opinion.



Do you see now a contradiction in your argumentation here? If you are doing "your own aikido" you can't do it by kata training, cos kata preserve tradition and can't be changed or rejected at all through generations or in higher level...
How come kata can lead to takemusu? If you train swimming in kata way, without swimming pool, just lying in dry surface many years, and one day you decide to jump to a real swimming pool, what will happened? :laugh:
It is the same with relation kata to takemusu. Kata are really useless. It is so out of date teaching tool. Look at sports, they developed so efficient ways of training.



A good read on this subject is Diane Skoss's article on kata in aikido (posted on her site and the aikido journal site as well).

Ron Tisdale

I'm sure that Diane is very nice person, but I can hardly see her as authority supreme in aikido to me :smokin: I think in fact she stopped aikido ages ago....

I hope you are not getting angry Ron?

Yamantaka
15th January 2002, 13:06
Originally posted by szczepan
For sure, Sugano sensei said it better than I could ever imagine. There is quite a logic in his idea about kata training and aikido.
Normally I have nothing to add after sensei, but a smalltalk with Ron and PeterR is so interesting that I couldn't resist:

YAMANTAKA : the same thing happened to me, O Unpronounceable One!


Originally posted by szczepan
In other argument about seats, I think you confuse western and japanese way of thinking. For Japanese apparences is everything, but of course it has no true meaning about their real jugements.

YAMANTAKA : Perhaps a better argumentation is that the late Doshu was a member of Yoshinkan's board (I believe this information came from Goldsbury Sensei). Strange for an Aikikai Doshu to be a part of a non-Ueshiba Organization. I don't know if the present Doshu is also a member of the Yoshinkan Board.


Originally posted by szczepan
Do you see now a contradiction in your argumentation here? If you are doing "your own aikido" you can't do it by kata training, cos kata preserve tradition and can't be changed or rejected at all through generations or in higher level...It is the same with relation kata to takemusu. Kata are really useless. It is so out of date teaching tool. Look at sports, they developed so efficient ways of training.

YAMANTAKA : According to Sugano, who "said it much better than you", "Aikido doesn't practice just Kata". I don't think he's saying "Kata is really useless..." But, probably, I'm misunderstanding things here...


Originally posted by szczepan
How come kata can lead to takemusu? If you train swimming in kata way, without swimming pool, just lying in dry surface many years, and one day you decide to jump to a real swimming pool, what will happened? :laugh:

YAMANTAKA : I'm your own answer and denial. I never learned how to swim. One day, a friend (???) of mine threw me in the sea, in a very deep place. I had two options : either I drown or I learned how to swim. Know what ? I begun to swim. No style, very bad swimming, but I swam. The crucial need, You know...


Originally posted by szczepan
It is the same with relation kata to takemusu. Kata are really useless. It is so out of date teaching tool. Look at sports, they developed so efficient ways of training.

YAMANTAKA : I wonder if you ever saw a real kata (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Kata, for instance, fast, furious and extremely aggressive, not bound to tradition but able to continuously change (takemusu Aiki) in practice...Judo kata and karate kata lost much of that fire...Perhaps because of sports?


Originally posted by szczepan
I'm sure that Diane is very nice person, but I can hardly see her as authority supreme in aikido to me :smokin: I think in fact she stopped aikido ages ago....

YAMANTAKA : Ah...! Your old argument : "NO ONE WHO DOESN'T PRACTICE MAY TALK ABOUT AIKIDO! THEY ARE IGNORANTS!" And that includes Diane, Stanley Pranin (who I think isn't practicinc anymore), Ellis Amdur, Meik Skoss and poor ol' me...
Happily, some people doesn't give a damn about that, as long as the questions and opinions about Aikido (not Aikido TECHNIQUES or PERFORMANCE but History, some theory, ethics, and O-Sensei's ideas and life) are interesting and founded in research and good sense.
When you resort to the argument AD HOMINEM (attack the person/lady and not his ideas) I can only conclude that some persons are afraid to discuss ideas and so they try to discredit people. If practice is so important, by all means, DEMOLISH the "theoreticians' ideas", show to the world how wrong they are but, please, avoid the AD HOMINEM (or FEMINA) argument. It's just ridiculous, believe me.
And by the way, "smoking" is bad for your health... ;)


Originally posted by szczepan
I hope you are not getting angry Ron?

YAMANTAKA : I'm not Ron and I don't have his permission to defend him but I really don't think it's a question of his being angry or not. Why should he be? Because you're provoking him? You flame a lot on many lists (I wonder how you have the time, since practice is so important to you...! I have, but I'm an invalid and so I have the time...), you are sarcastic and you're always trying to demoralize your opponents. Believe me, that's why you worry about people getting angered? Treat people with education, do not make them feel bad and you'll see no one will get angered at you.
You have the potential to contribute much to many lists, as I saw one or two times (much too little for your potential). Please, do that and stop flaming!
Sincerely :smash:
The Non-Aikidoka (but happily accepted by many...) ;)

Ron Tisdale
15th January 2002, 15:37
Angry? not at all. I'll post my response in a little bit...off to a meeting now.

I'm slowly learning not to take all this too seriously...especially since I sometimes like the wordplay we do. It makes me think about my convictions. Be back soon...

Ron (its all good) Tisdale

PRehse
15th January 2002, 15:59
I think Szczepan has a fundamental misunderstanding as to what kata is and what its potential is in the developement of ones own Aikido.

From the Sugano quote:
The way aikido is taught these days varies greatly from person to person and it's not surprising that the people learning it are apt to become confused, but this is because aikido does not stick exclusively to kata. The practice of ata as found in Japanese martial arts and in the Japanese arts in general is a means of ransmitting specific ways of doing things. Our modern training isn't like this. It places more emphasis on repetitive practice of techniques.
He states quite clearly that there is kata training in Aikido and in fact most of the training in Aikikai dojos is that. A single defined attack and a defined response is still a kata at its most basic level. Katas main purpose is in instilling correct technique and teaching principles and it is understood that one must move beyond mere kata. Judo and Shodokan Aikido do this through randori and Aikikia does it through Jijuwaza and their particular brand of randori.


From the keyboard of the unpronouncible one:
How come kata can lead to takemusu? If you train swimming in kata way, without swimming pool, just lying in dry surface many years, and one day you decide to jump to a real swimming pool, what will happened?
Well the analogy is very weak but I will work with it. Kata ranges from a total raw beginner doing swimming motions beside the pool, paddling around the shallow section, doing laps, to doing rescue drills in the deep end. The real test is what happens when the boat you are on sinks in the ocean. Same with Aikido - the real test is applying what you learnt outside the controlled environment of the dojo.

Throughout the Japanese martial arts in the principle of Shu Ha Ri - the Ri is basically the same thing as Takemasu.

Finally - and I think this is where the misunderstanding lies - kata is not some stagnent tradition - unchangeable. Traditional kata change over time. They are also performed differently by different people depending on body and experience. Kata themselves are not bound by tradition - you may even make your own but of course the idea is that the weight of experience behind the tradition is the better way to go.

INFINOO
15th January 2002, 16:06
Please, stop fighting in front of the childern:redhot:

Gregory Rogalsky
Rogalsky Combatives international
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

PRehse
15th January 2002, 16:21
Originally posted by INFINOO
Please, stop fighting in front of the childern:redhot:
What do you mean - we ARE the children.:D

Ron Tisdale
15th January 2002, 19:20
Well, both Ubaldo and Peter (thanks guys!) have answered the questions from Mr. S better than I could myself...I'll just concur with their answers.

I would like to highlight that Mr. S has mentioned his disdain for kata previously. His objections are just as weak now, as then. I think they portray a fundamental misunderstanding of kata, what it is, how it works in the classical sense. That is a shame, that such a valuable tool is so misunderstood by today's martial artists. I don't know whether it is simply a matter of the strip mall karate dojo single person moving to music, or just not being familiar with the classical traditions (which at their best are most certainly not dead traditions).

Just more impetus for me to get off my butt and write this article I've been thinking about...

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
15th January 2002, 19:22
Originally posted by Yamantaka



YAMANTAKA : Perhaps a better argumentation is that the late Doshu was a member of Yoshinkan's board (I believe this information came from Goldsbury Sensei). Strange for an Aikikai Doshu to be a part of a non-Ueshiba Organization. I don't know if the present Doshu is also a member of the Yoshinkan Board.

I understand, Doshu must do a lot of politics...




YAMANTAKA : According to Sugano, who "said it much better than you", "Aikido doesn't practice just Kata". I don't think he's saying "Kata is really useless..." But, probably, I'm misunderstanding things here...

Can I have a slightly different view then sensei please? :look:




YAMANTAKA : I'm your own answer and denial. I never learned how to swim. One day, a friend (???) of mine threw me in the sea, in a very deep place. I had two options : either I drown or I learned how to swim. Know what ? I begun to swim. No style, very bad swimming, but I swam. The crucial need, You know...


But we can't make a general opinion from your particulier case, can we? We can safely think that most ppl wiil die rather quickly...



YAMANTAKA : I wonder if you ever saw a real kata (Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Kata, for instance, fast, furious and extremely aggressive, not bound to tradition but able to continuously change (takemusu Aiki) in practice...Judo kata and karate kata lost much of that fire...Perhaps because of sports?


May be you are rihgt as far as for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu Kata but we are talking here about Yoshinkan kata, so your argument doesn't count. I saw Yoshinkan kata, and really, no fire at all.



YAMANTAKA : Ah...! Your old argument : "NO ONE WHO DOESN'T PRACTICE MAY TALK ABOUT AIKIDO! THEY ARE IGNORANTS!" And that includes Diane, Stanley Pranin (who I think isn't practicinc anymore), Ellis Amdur, Meik Skoss and poor ol' me...
Happily, some people doesn't give a damn about that, as long as the questions and opinions about Aikido (not Aikido TECHNIQUES or PERFORMANCE but History, some theory, ethics, and O-Sensei's ideas and life) are interesting and founded in research and good sense.
When you resort to the argument AD HOMINEM (attack the person/lady and not his ideas) I can only conclude that some persons are afraid to discuss ideas and so they try to discredit people. If practice is so important, by all means, DEMOLISH the "theoreticians' ideas", show to the world how wrong they are but, please, avoid the AD HOMINEM (or FEMINA) argument. It's just ridiculous, believe me.
And by the way, "smoking" is bad for your health... ;)

I didn't say that. Don't put those words in my mouth. I my aikido practice, I follow minimum one seminar with students of the Founder every month, so naturally they are for me greater authority, and not somebody I've never met, and didn't feel his level of aikido practice. It is so simple. It is nothing personal.



YAMANTAKA : I'm not Ron and I don't have his permission to defend him but I really don't think it's a question of his being angry or not. Why should he be? Because you're provoking him? You flame a lot on many lists (I wonder how you have the time, since practice is so important to you...! I have, but I'm an invalid and so I have the time...), you are sarcastic and you're always trying to demoralize your opponents. Believe me, that's why you worry about people getting angered? Treat people with education, do not make them feel bad and you'll see no one will get angered at you.
You have the potential to contribute much to many lists, as I saw one or two times (much too little for your potential). Please, do that and stop flaming!
Sincerely :smash:
The Non-Aikidoka (but happily accepted by many...) ;)

Am I sarcastic ???? or flaming??? hey, Friend, I'm disscussing, exchange arguments... I learned enjoing dissusion with ppl, even if they have different poin of view. And it is not fighting (Hi M.Rogalski!), I'm not paranoiac :laugh: Aikido is not about "combatives" by the way.....

PRehse
15th January 2002, 19:43
Originally posted by szczepan
I didn't say that. Don't put those words in my mouth. I my aikido practice, I follow minimum one seminar with students of the Founder every month, so naturally they are for me greater authority, and not somebody I've never met, and didn't feel his level of aikido practice. It is so simple. It is nothing personal.

Speaking of which there was a list published about the official deshi of Ueshiba M. Does anybody have the link?

szczepan
15th January 2002, 20:16
Originally posted by PRehse

He states quite clearly that there is kata training in Aikido and in fact most of the training in Aikikai dojos is that. A single defined attack and a defined response is still a kata at its most basic level. Katas main purpose is in instilling correct technique and teaching principles and it is understood that one must move beyond mere kata. Judo and Shodokan Aikido do this through randori and Aikikia does it through Jijuwaza and their particular brand of randori.

well Peter, Aikikai "kata training" has nothing to do with judo,Yoshinkan or Shodokan kata. Only attack and technique is definied, but not EXACT form of attack or technique. In fact, a way of executing a technique is not rigid, not from point-to-point as for example in Yoshinkan. Aikikai is FFAAAR less precise technically, ppl develop a lot bad habits, their own maneere of practice right from the begining. There is not "one-two -three-four" style of practice. So don't mix up both styles.

more later...

Yamantaka
15th January 2002, 20:24
Originally posted by PRehse

Speaking of which there was a list published about the official deshi of Ueshiba M. Does anybody have the link?

YAMANTAKA : According to Peter Goldsbury Sensei, O-Sensei's only direct students were his disciples at the Kobukan(Shioda, Mochizuki and a few others). Yamada, Sugano, Saotome, Tamura and all the others were students of the Aikikai, not specifically of the Doshu but of many teachers. The relationship was very different.
Best:wave:

PRehse
15th January 2002, 20:29
Originally posted by szczepan
well Peter, Aikikai "kata training" has nothing to do with judo,Yoshinkan or Shodokan kata. Only attack and technique is definied, but not EXACT form of attack or technique. In fact, a way of executing a technique is not rigid, not from point-to-point as for example in Yoshinkan. Aikikai is FFAAAR less precise technically, ppl develop a lot bad habits, their own maneere of practice right from the begining. There is not "one-two -three-four" style of practice. So don't mix up both styles.

more later... [/B]
Not really mixing up the styles - there is no one-two-three-four style of practice in Shodokan Aikido kata - no experience with Yoshinkan kata but I suspect what you are seeing is a learning methodology rather than full blown kata - read my/our swimming analogy again. There is a specified attack and a specified response - I see absolutely no difference between a Shihonage response to a Yokomenuchi attack that a student is required to learn for a kyu or Dan grade within the Aikikai and what is called kata in the Shodokan system.

Steven Miranda
15th January 2002, 20:37
Originally posted by szczepan


In fact, a way of executing a technique is not rigid, not from point-to-point as for example in Yoshinkan.
more later... [/B]

Yoshinkan technique is not rigid ... It's precisely executed. Then again, if you really knew anything about Yoshinkan and its training method, you'd know it is the cultivation of the mind and body. I can assure you, we in the Yoshinkan can look like just like any other ballet dancer in Aikido if we choose.

But then again, since you obviously know nothing about Yoshinkan, I would expect such uneducated remarks. Please stop misrepresenting yourself, your dojo, your teacher and most importantly, Yoshinkan. It only serves to make you look silly.

Your not getting angry are you Szczepan? :rolleyes:

Steven Miranda
15th January 2002, 20:40
Originally posted by PRehse

I see absolutely no difference between a Shihonage response to a Yokomenuchi attack that a student is required to learn for a kyu or Dan grade within the Aikikai and what is called kata in the Shodokan system.

That's because the only difference is the way the technique is taught. The principles and mechanics of the technique don't change. Only the way of teaching it does.

Yamantaka
15th January 2002, 20:44
Originally posted by szczepan
I didn't say that. Don't put those words in my mouth. I my aikido practice, I follow minimum one seminar with students of the Founder every month, so naturally they are for me greater authority, and not somebody I've never met, and didn't feel his level of aikido practice. It is so simple. It is nothing personal.


YAMANTAKA : Dear Unpronounceable,
Through all your post you play with words, changing the meaning of things (you can have different opinions from your sensei; no one was saying my "Takemusu Aiki swmming" was an example for all; and kata is kata. It does not matter if it is done in Yoshinkan or in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu).
As above...I was talking about historical theories and good sense and you (an intelligent man) repeat the same tired arguments ("Aikido practice..."; "Students of the Founder...are for me greater authority..."; "somebody I've never met and didn't feel his level of Aikido practice..."). In short, a discussion list, O Unpronounceable One, is not a place to discuss practice. The time you spent here would perhaps be best spent on the mats. A list is a place to discuss a thing you hate so much - THEORY. And also History, Ethics, and other things, not necessarily linked to PRACTICE. The dojo is not the place to discuss theory (even if Ueshiba did that...), nor the list is the place to practice.
And I have an unpleasant thing to tell you : THE SHIHAN ARE VERY GOOD AT PRACTICE BUT NOT NECESSARILY AT THEORY OR HISTORY OR EVEN MEMORY OF FACTS. Many of them taught wrong facts and many have enormous lapses of memory. Some of them are very good at many things but not all. You demand the right to have different opinions from a Shihan and then you go on to say that you only hear the Shihan because you trust them more. Go figure...


Originally posted by szczepan
Am I sarcastic ???? or flaming??? hey, Friend, I'm disscussing, exchange arguments... I learned enjoing dissusion with ppl, even if they have different poin of view. And it is not fighting (Hi M.Rogalski!), I'm not paranoiac :laugh: Aikido is not about "combatives" by the way.....

YAMANTAKA : Perhaps you're betraying yourself here when you said "I LEARNED ENJOING DISSUSION WITH PPL". Perhaps if you learned to communicate, not "ENJOYING DISCUSSION", you would flame a little less and you wouldn't be so sarcastic.
But that, of course, is my own opinion
(For people who don't know us, we're always like that...:smash: )
Best regards :saw: ;)

Steven Miranda
15th January 2002, 21:21
For the curious, please see the following links for examples of
Yoshinkans "RIGID" techniques.

Shioda Kancho (http://www.seikeikan.com/video/ShiodaJiyuWaza.wmv)


Chida Sensei (http://www.sanbukan.com/chida/chida3.html)


Chida Sensei (http://www.sanbukan.com/chida/chida4.html)


Chida Sensei (http://www.sanbukan.com/chida/chida5.html)

szczepan
15th January 2002, 21:57
Originally posted by Steven Miranda
For the curious, please see the following links for examples of
Yoshinkans "RIGID" techniques.



:nono:

Nice try...

you know quite well that Chida sensei himself with other high ranking Yoshinkan members created this "on! two! three!... kata" system in order to teach large groupes of police and other crowds. So nor Shioda sensei nor Chida sensei weren't exposed for this system.

szczepan
15th January 2002, 22:13
Originally posted by Steven Miranda


Yoshinkan technique is not rigid ... It's precisely executed. Then again, if you really knew anything about Yoshinkan and its training method, you'd know it is the cultivation of the mind and body. I can assure you, we in the Yoshinkan can look like just like any other ballet dancer in Aikido if we choose.

Yeah... I could observed it, Kimeda sensei sometimes practice very nice aikido like that. But his students, even black belts still one, two, three... So it takes 8 th dan level to start practice more fluid aikido in Yoshinkan?




But then again, since you obviously know nothing about Yoshinkan, I would expect such uneducated remarks. Please stop misrepresenting yourself, your dojo, your teacher and most importantly, Yoshinkan. It only serves to make you look silly.

Surly you are not attacking me personally here? ;) Anyway take a look at forum rules...

BTW I'm representing only very uneducated myself here..



Your not getting angry are you Szczepan? :rolleyes:

noah.... I know that in fact you like me :kiss:

Ron Tisdale
15th January 2002, 23:13
Hey Mr. S.,

I can take you to some yoshinkan students way less than 8th dan who can show you the flow...personally. It would be a great pleasure to get beyond the "whose aikido I have never felt" objection. :)

The fact that you don't know of any in Kimeda Sensei's neck of the woods simply shows your lack of exposure.

Shioda Sensei did train using kata in my opinion...take a look at the training manuals produced by Ueshiba during the time Shioda S. was with him.

And what was produced by Kushida, Kimeda and others was the focus on basic movements...not kata per se. You are again confusing performing a technique according to a count with kata...the two may (or may not) intersect, but they are not the same.

I think what Ubaldo is refering to is your apparent inability to communicate in anything other than a dismissive, sarcastic tone. I've come to accept it, though it still rankles from time to time. Hey, we are who we are (take my occational personality disorder for instance).

Ron (live well, be happy) Tisdale

:wave: Hey Steven! And you thought we didnt know how to have fun...

Steven Miranda
15th January 2002, 23:31
Originally posted by szczepan


:nono:

Nice try...

you know quite well that Chida sensei himself with other high ranking Yoshinkan members created this "on! two! three!... kata" system in order to teach large groupes of police and other crowds. So nor Shioda sensei nor Chida sensei weren't exposed for this system.

:rolleyes: Okay .... so please endulge me for a moment while I educate you a bit.

The current teaching system was developed in approximately 1963 by Inoue Sensei (our dojocho) and Kushida Sensei (no longer a part of Yoshinkan). It was a system developed, as you stated, in order to train 300+ police officers at one time.

This is from Inoue Sensei's words in an interview with AJMAG. Per Inoue Sensei, Shioda Sensei REFINED the method and was very much a part of making it a norm as it needed his approval. Chida Sensei, if training then, was just a youngster, therefore, he GREW UP in this system. He did not create it.

As to Kimeda Sensei and the hundreds of Yoshinkan dojos around the world. We use the method to teach and refine basic technique and even the likes of Parker Sensei still teaches and trains this way. However, when it comes to jiyu-waza or whatever your favorite term is, I can assure you there is no , one, two, three ..... Just a very solid and convincing "ONE"

So I say again, unless you know what you are REALLY looking at, don't commet on it. Try to learn and UNDERSTAND it first. This way you don't look so silly. Well you make look silly anyways, but at least you'll be educated. :D

szczepan
15th January 2002, 23:34
Originally posted by PRehse
Well the analogy is very weak but I will work with it. Kata ranges from a total raw beginner doing swimming motions beside the pool, paddling around the shallow section, doing laps, to doing rescue drills in the deep end. The real test is what happens when the boat you are on sinks in the ocean. Same with Aikido - the real test is applying what you learnt outside the controlled environment of the dojo.

Throughout the Japanese martial arts in the principle of Shu Ha Ri - the Ri is basically the same thing as Takemasu.

Finally - and I think this is where the misunderstanding lies - kata is not some stagnent tradition - unchangeable. Traditional kata change over time. They are also performed differently by different people depending on body and experience. Kata themselves are not bound by tradition - you may even make your own but of course the idea is that the weight of experience behind the tradition is the better way to go.

My analogy was only to show, that one can't wait 50 (or whatever) years to start dealing with another kind of expression of techniques (the spontaneous execution of limitless techniques). As real swimming is very different from "dry drill" , in the same way, spontaneous execution has nothing to do with kata. Spontaneous execution beside technical part, has no framework in one's mind and he can't use same mind's automatic response as to kata movements. The only way to learm it is start right from the beginning, otherwise you need to reprograming your mind after very many years from bad habits which is waste of time..... In kata way, one can't develop intuition and empathy - two of basic tools for spontanity. Of course, developpement of technical skills will slow down, but in the end, it is mind who leads body... :wave:

Steven Miranda
15th January 2002, 23:35
Originally posted by szczepan


Surly you are not attacking me personally here? ;) Anyway take a look at forum rules...

BTW I'm representing only very uneducated myself here..

noah.... I know that in fact you like me :kiss:

Now Szczepan ... You know I'd never attack you personally. I just replied in the same fashion in which you are used to. Just tryin' to harmonize with you my friend ...

:toast:

Now off to go find where in the forum rules it says I can't pick on Szczepan :laugh:

PRehse
16th January 2002, 00:21
Szczepan;

Again you seem to be only taking the portion of what is said to bolster your misunderstanding.

Both I in referring to Shodokan Aikido and others with respect to Yoshinkan have taken pains to point out that kata is only part of the parcel. You also seem to be using two entirely unrelated concepts interchangeably.

Fluidity: Kata (which as I've stated is also used within Aikikai) is very fluid if done well.

Spontaneous techniques: well this comes from practicing free-style whether the jujiwaza of Yoshinkan or Aikikai or the different levels of Randorigeiko of Shodokan.

I have no idea about Yoshinkan but in the Shodokan system, a student is doing both kata and free-style training within a year of starting - usually sooner rather than later.

I have no idea where you get the value of 50 years but I wonder how many Aikido practioners, no matter what the style, that you know have truely reached Takemasu - you perhaps? Pulling known techniques out of a hat is not the same thing. I've not met many that even come close.

szczepan
16th January 2002, 03:05
Originally posted by Steven Miranda


Now Szczepan ... You know I'd never attack you personally. I just replied in the same fashion in which you are used to. Just tryin' to harmonize with you my friend ...

oh yeah? just show me where I called silly lookin' and uneducated my fellow E-budo member Ron :)





:toast:

Now off to go find where in the forum rules it says I can't pick on Szczepan :laugh:

very good point!...I'll send a message to His Majesty Administrator to fix it quickly...

Steven Miranda
16th January 2002, 03:10
Originally posted by szczepan


oh yeah? just show me where I called silly lookin' and uneducated my fellow E-budo member Ron :)



Hmmmm .... good point. Maybe it's not in the words but in the directness of the post, eh?

Oh, and for the record, Ron is funny looking ... :laugh:

J/K

Chris Li
16th January 2002, 13:35
Originally posted by Steven Miranda
As to Kimeda Sensei and the hundreds of Yoshinkan dojos around the world. We use the method to teach and refine basic technique and even the likes of Parker Sensei still teaches and trains this way. However, when it comes to jiyu-waza or whatever your favorite term is, I can assure you there is no , one, two, three ..... Just a very solid and convincing "ONE"

Oddly enough, I find myself agreeing (in part) with that guy whose name I can't spell. I train regularly with some Yoshinkan folks and they do tend to have a habit of going by the numbers a little too much. On the other hand, Aikikai folks often tend to make a habit of covering sloppy basics with that flowing tai-sabaki. Realistically, unless the training methods are constantly changing, whatever style you train in will develop some set of habits, both good and bad. I was talking to a Yoshinkan guy that I train with (got his san-dan from Shioda in 1971) about this very issue a couple of months ago, and he was much of the same opinion. I'm mostly Aikikai, so he feeds me the Yoshinkan guys to try and get them more flowing, and then he feeds me back to them to try and get my movements more precise. All in all, I think that it works out pretty well :) .

Best,

Chris

Ron Tisdale
16th January 2002, 15:48
Hi guys,

Well, I *am* a *little* silly looking... ;)

Nice post Chris...since I have some exposure to aikido outside of yoshinkan, I see where you are comming from...and frankly, this isn't the first time I've heard of the "stiffness" of some yoshinkan students. My point is, there are many who don't suffer from that...and they are not all 8th dan either (far from it). I think many would be surprised to see it...but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Back to kata... from "Dynamic Aikido", by Gozo Shioda:


Though aikido is normally practiced in kata form, this does not mean that the movement is "dead"; on the contrary, each repetition must be effective. The essense of aikido practice is that both partners perfect their movements and try to obtain real strength by applying the techniques correctly. Though aikido differs from other sports in that it goes beyond the normal concepts of victory and defeat, the object of controlling the opponent and gaining superiority must never be forgotten. At the same time, as mentioned earlier, the aikidoka must always strive for "mental harmony".

Now, here we have one of the "founder's" long time students, who trained with him both pre and post war, making a definitive statement about the use of kata in aikido. Shioda Sensei goes even further; from his statement, we can infer that it is through kata that "both partners perfect their movements and try to obtain real strength".

In my own experience, a technique that is truly controling, but done with flow, power and speed, is devestating to a partner who does not understand the proper movements. Even a technique built around 4th control, like suigetsuki yonkajo osae ichi or ni. This technique contains an atemi from shite to uke's face, which uke must block, or be hit by. And even though I consider 4th control to be a relatively "weak" control, if done with the proper body movement, especially on the 2nd technique, it is possible to slam your partner's face into the mat, even if you miss the actual pressure point.

Kata is not just one person performing movements regardless of what your partner is doing. It is two people harmonizing to produce one technique. One movement involving two people. If either one doesn't know their part, the possibility of injury goes up dramatically. Therefore, it is necessary for both people to learn the kata, slowly with focus and control. But that doesn't mean the movement stays that way...as both partners progress, the kata can be (and is) done with varying levels of speed, power, control, etc.

One of the complaints often heard about aikido is that "the object of controlling the opponent and gaining superiority" is sometimes forgotten. Properly performing the movements in a technique with "real strength" using kata is one way this complaint can be silenced.

Shioda Sensei again;


Thus, since aikido can be practised as energetically or gently as desired, it can be enjoyed by people of all ages and both sexes.

Quotes from pages 17 and 18 of Dynamic Aikido, Kodansha International, paperback edition, 1977.

Ron Tisdale

PRehse
16th January 2002, 16:27
When I was returning to Canada a few years ago I asked one of the senior people at Shodokan Honbu what I should do with respect to training - there being no Shodokan dojos in the nearby.

The most favourable comment (amoung the different Aikido styles) was directed toward Yoshinkan but the stiffness of lower level students was noted.

To paraphrase however - when its good, its very good.

One point I'ld like to make for no other reason than I like to hear myself type. Kata based training does require a good teacher and a good pool of sempai to draw on. Its not just a series of movements - its formation may be designed to teach principles but its culmunation is an embodiament of all those principles. You wont just see a technique being performed but ma ai, fluidity, zanshin and whatever else makes Aikido magic. The biggest problem is when you have relative beginners teaching that are not themselves under regular guidance. They and their students can get stuck. This problem is one of the major reasons I am returning to Japan for hopefully the next five years (by the way my Visa has been issued so soon very soon).

Ron Tisdale
16th January 2002, 16:37
I agree Peter; without a high level instructor formulating and correcting kata practise, you don't get the adherence to principle necessary to make kata training what it should be.

Personally, the one style of aikido I've had no exposure to and yet would like to see the most would be shodokan. After that, yoseikan. Oh well, I'm only 40; lots of time yet (I hope).

Ron Tisdale

szczepan
16th January 2002, 20:08
Originally posted by PRehse
The biggest problem is when you have relative beginners teaching that are not themselves under regular guidance. They and their students can get stuck.
;)



This problem is one of the major reasons I am returning to Japan for hopefully the next five years (by the way my Visa has been issued so soon very soon).


WHAT!!!! Quebec without Tomiki dojo again????? :confused:
I can't believe that.....

just kidding....


Congrats!!! when you leave for Japan?

PRehse
16th January 2002, 20:23
Originally posted by szczepan
Congrats!!! when you leave for Japan?
End of February latest.

Derringer
24th January 2002, 17:17
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : According to Peter Goldsbury Sensei, O-Sensei's only direct students were his disciples at the Kobukan(Shioda, Mochizuki and a few others). Yamada, Sugano, Saotome, Tamura and all the others were students of the Aikikai, not specifically of the Doshu but of many teachers. The relationship was very different.
Best:wave:

I was present during a conversation with Sugano Sensei that relates to this subject. During his tenure as a deshi, he did, in fact, travel extensively and spent most of his time with O Sensei.

Interesting sidelight: He mentioned that O Sensei rarely taught Nage waza. Most of the training was katame waza practiced as suwari.

Ernie Tremblay

don
24th January 2002, 18:25
Originally posted by Derringer
\Interesting sidelight: He mentioned that O Sensei rarely taught Nage waza. Most of the training was katame waza practiced as suwari.
Ernie Tremblay

It's funny this wasn't reflected in his filmed demonstrations. I understand that Chiba has the same attitude. I once did some training with a Daito Ryu fellow in Tokyo who couldn't understand why aikido released an enemy to attack again. He always pinned.

don
24th January 2002, 19:01
Oops!--No signatures on this board (and I've been politely warned before, too.)

don is Don J. Modesto, Ft. L., Fl

Derringer
24th January 2002, 19:49
Originally posted by Steven Miranda


That's because the only difference is the way the technique is taught. The principles and mechanics of the technique don't change. Only the way of teaching it does.

I tend to agree. I practice aikikai (with Donovan Waite Sensei), but on those occasions when I've had an opportunity to practice with Yoshinkan folks, their aikido pretty much feels the same as ours.

Ernie Tremblay

Mike Collins
25th January 2002, 02:53
Yoshinkan, Ki Society, Tomiki, Aikikai, Whatever Barrish calls his stuff, Judo, Jujutsu...

Some are good, some are working to be good, some think they are good, some will never be good (that'd be my group).

Each style has their earmarks... Ki tends towards flow, Tomiki and Yoshinkan tend towards stiff basics, Aikikai tends towards either flow or rigid basics, depending on the group, but at the level of great people, they're ALL good stuff. We who waste our time categorizing are probably the only ones who think the categories really matter.

Pietro Maeda in Oakland is a strong Ki guy, Obata Sensei moves incredibly well, and his background is Yoshinkan, I have a friend who's built like a fireplug, and he tells me that Kisshomaru Doshu's nikkyo was like a vice, and he was just a lil feller. Wally Jay and the late Sig Kufferath of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu both moved very well, Don Angier, from what I've heard, doesn't fit in a box.

For all intents and purposes, it's futile to put styles in a box, cause at the high levels, they're way more alike than different.

As to swimming... many people would dog paddle for a while before they drowned. In a real fight, most people would flail about for a while before they got killed. Very few people have the mental equipment to deal with true conflict (not the dojo kind), and to believe that you can (safely) set up a true confrontation paradigm in a dojo is not unlike believing you can learn to swim in a bathtub. Better to go through the motions on good dry land, develop good technique, and be aware that there is still a chance of drowning should you fall in, but training to move well if you survive.

PRehse
25th January 2002, 14:34
Originally posted by Mike Collins
Each style has their earmarks... Ki tends towards flow, Tomiki and Yoshinkan tend towards stiff basics, Aikikai tends towards either flow or rigid basics, depending on the group, but at the level of great people, they're ALL good stuff. We who waste our time categorizing are probably the only ones who think the categories really matter.
Grrrrr!!!!

Each style has their earmarks... Ki tends towards indirect, Tomiki and Yoshinkan tend towards direct, Aikikai tends towards either indirect or direct, depending on the group, but at the level of great people, they're ALL good stuff. We who waste our time categorizing are probably the only ones who think the categories really matter.

Don't know much about Yoshinkan but I take umbrage about Tomiki being called stiff. At the very beginning (first, mavbe second year) kata can be stiff but no worse than any first or second year student of any style.

Mike Collins
25th January 2002, 14:45
Okay. That works. My exposure's not all that extensive. It's the rest of the post I was trying to make a point with. Maybe static would have been more accurate than stiff?

PRehse
25th January 2002, 15:13
Hi Mike;

I know and it was a very good post - you said very clearly that categorizing usually fails miserably. I even went away thinking that it wasn't really necessary for me to add anything but ..... well I couldn't help myself. I also have a problem with static ;)

It is true though that low level kata can look very stiff but that's all been covered in previous posts in this thread. I do agree that Shodokan (Tomiki) and from what I understand Yoshinkan do have a very strong emphasis on basics and the application of those basics are geared toward what works. In other words there tend to be fewer variations and what there is tends to be much more direct.

I consider my Aikido improved by the time I spent in Aikikai dojos but only because it was firmly grounded in the basics I learned in Shodokan. Take that any way you will but I believe flow comes from basics far easier than the other way around.

Yamantaka
25th January 2002, 15:38
Originally posted by Derringer
I was present during a conversation with Sugano Sensei that relates to this subject. During his tenure as a deshi, he did, in fact, travel extensively and spent most of his time with O Sensei.

YAMANTAKA : It's difficult to fathom what one Sensei intends to convey when he talks. He travelled a lot (I don't know what he intended to say by "extensively") and he spent some time with O-Sensei (how much?).
Those are also his words :
- "(Kisshomaru Doshu) was one of the first people I met there (at the Wakamatsu Cho Dojo). Most of the time only O-Sensei and Doshu were there. Koichi Tohei was the head of the teaching staff. In the afternoon, we were taught by people like Sadateru Arikawa, Hiroshi Tada and Shigenobu Okumura. A few years later, Saito Sensei started coming down from Iwama (where O-Sensei lived) to teach on sundays";
- "Uchideshi (not of O-Sensei, but of Hombu) went to all the classes (of the various teachers). Practically by definition, being an uchideshi (of Hombu) meant that if there was practice you were there training";
- "I don't think there are any real uchideshi these days";
- "Yamaguchi Sensei had a very strong personality. It was difficult to grasp his techniques... or to capture the essence of what he was doing. Tohei Sensei's teaching was influenced by the Tempukai and it was easier to follow..";
- "Soon as I joined the Aikikai (Hombu), my parents cut my allowance, so I had a few part-time jobs but, other than those, I've done nothing but Aikido. I spent the entire day at the dojo(Hombu). Nothing but practice and more practice";
EVEN WHEN THE FOUNDER TAUGHT AT THE HOMBU, USUALLY THERE WAS NO TRAINING, JUST LONG TALKS BY THE FOUNDER. ABOUT THAT, SUGANO SAYS :
- "I found it difficult to understand him when he used Omoto ideas and doctrines to explain Aikido, because they were very vague...It was difficult to follow his logic, to feel that I had really grasped his meanin in a coherent way".
(AIKIDO JOURNAL #112 - 1997).


Originally posted by Derringer
Interesting sidelight: He mentioned that O Sensei rarely taught Nage waza. Most of the training was katame waza practiced as suwari.
Ernie Tremblay

YAMANTAKA : with all due respect to Sugano Sensei, and agreeing with Don, that's not what we see in O-Sensei's movies and what is told by other contemporaries.
Best

Derringer
25th January 2002, 16:16
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : with all due respect to Sugano Sensei, and agreeing with Don, that's not what we see in O-Sensei's movies and what is told by other contemporaries.
Best

What we see in films of O Sensei are mostly (although not all) demonstrations, not day to day classes, especially among those produced during the later part of his life. Furthermore, I haven't read or heard anything stated by contemporaries of Sugano that contradicts what he said. In any case, it was his experience of O Sensei, which he had at a particular time during the evolution of O Sensei's teaching, and in particular places. My mentioning of it was not intended as a global description of O Sensei's teaching or practice of aikido. Simply an interesting detail.

szczepan
25th January 2002, 20:35
Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : with all due respect to Sugano Sensei, and agreeing with Don, that's not what we see in O-Sensei's movies and what is told by other contemporaries.
Best

I'll say that:

All this disscussion about who was deshi, who was uchideshi and how long time is not pertinent at all.

All students who intensively trained in Hombu dojo at this time where his uke, could feel techniques and absorb personality of Founder in regular basics.

May be not in everyday basic. Why it should decide about their quality as aikidokas for you???

May be it was even better? From my personal experience, often students who train every day in present shihans dojo have not so sharp attention as students who come from time to time only and consider every training with this particular shihan as unique occassion to learn. So they are as spong in learning from this teacher, it is not a rutine task for them. And they are very often better aikidokas then residential students.

So your historical point of view YAMANTAKA not reflect a reality of traning at all.

Those ppl have direct and real, physical experience with Founder, and it all what counts. How many present instructors can say that? Only very few. Soon, nobody will can say that. That's why their experience is so precious. So don't be so strictly politically / historically correct YAMANTAKA, please :look:

As fas as Founder's movies go, hey, it is really funny argument. Do you really think this kind of teacher will show a real, training for demo? Daito ryu has separate set of techniques for demo, and it has nothing to do with real training, you know that very well from interview with Hisa sensei's student recently posted here in e-budo.
It is also said that Founder didn't want to transmit his secrets from Daito ryu even to his direct students, and for you a public demo is a reference how his art should look???

I hope you are kidding here...

Ron Tisdale
25th January 2002, 21:36
Hey Szczepan,

You really need to pick one side of an arguement and stick to it...

:)

Ron Tisdale

Steven Miranda
25th January 2002, 22:50
Originally posted by PRehse
Hi Mike;

from what I understand Yoshinkan do have a very strong emphasis on basics and the application of those basics are geared toward what works. In other words there tend to be fewer variations and what there is tends to be much more direct.


There are 150 basic techniques in Yoshinkan. From those 150, there are thousands of variations. For every student of Aikido you have a new variation because we are all individual people.

Not worth much, but that's my pennies worth anyway ...

/sm

Yamantaka
26th January 2002, 15:13
Originally posted by szczepan
I'll say that:
All this disscussion about who was deshi, who was uchideshi and how long time is not pertinent at all.
All students who intensively trained in Hombu dojo at this time where his uke, could feel techniques and absorb personality of Founder in regular basics.
May be not in everyday basic. Why it should decide about their quality as aikidokas for you???
So your historical point of view YAMANTAKA not reflect a reality of traning at all.
So don't be so strictly politically / historically correct YAMANTAKA, please :look:

YAMANTAKA : Dear #$%&/$, :rolleyes:
I know you have a great difficulty in reading ;), so I'll try to explain : The discussion was about who was and who wasn't, in the strict sense, an uchideshi of O-Sensei. I answered that. Nowhere I said if one was best or the other was worst. The concept was about the meaning of the word, not the quality of the teachers.
THE IMPORTANCE IS ATTACHED BY THE SHIHAN WHO HAVE TOLD THE WORLD (AND INSISTED) THAT THEY WERE O-SENSEI'S DIRECT STUDENTS (UCHIDESHI), SOMETHING THAT WAS NEVER ENDORSED BY THE AIKIKAI HOMBU DOJO. THEY FOUND IT IMPORTANT, NOT I...;)
Anyway, thank you for considering me POLITICALLY/HISTORICALLY CORRECT ! :kiss: I'll take this as a compliment...;)


Originally posted by szczepan
As fas as Founder's movies go, hey, it is really funny argument. Do you really think this kind of teacher will show a real, training for demo? Daito ryu has separate set of techniques for demo, and it has nothing to do with real training, you know that very well from interview with Hisa sensei's student recently posted here in e-budo.
It is also said that Founder didn't want to transmit his secrets from Daito ryu even to his direct students, and for you a public demo is a reference how his art should look???


YAMANTAKA : Another case of bad reading, #$%&/$... ;)
The tapes are important, not (obviously, my son...! ;) ) because they are ALL THAT O-SENSEI did but because NOBODY, not even DRAJJ masters exclude all information from their tapes. Show me at least 3 texts from supposed Uchideshi or real uchideshi saying how O-Sensei teached and it's all over.
As to your doctoral thesis, my friend, you try again to do what you always do : FLAME THREADS and stop any serious discussion.
I already know that, so I won't feed you. :smash:
Best regards and try to improve your reading;)