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stratcat
13th January 2002, 08:09
First of all: No offense intended! This IS a serious question.

From my understanding, Miyamoto Musashi is seen as a sort folk hero in the Japanese Martial Arts, particularly amongst sword guys (sword wielders?), because of his great skill in the use of the Ken.

However, it is also my understanding that he was a low ranking samurai with little education, and less manners; was somewhat uncouth, shabbily ill dressed, rarely bathed and was generally ill kempt; was fairly boastful and cheated (I mean really, running up to Sasaki Kojiro and smacking him with a boat oar on the head is hardly an honorable way to defeat your opponent, is it?); despite the fact that he was unbeaten in head to head combat, his army got its collective butt kicked in the ONE army scale battle he was involved; was beaten by a guy with a Jo, not a fellow kenshin; became a ronin, not because his master was killed, but because he couldn't afford to pay his retainers (basically he was fired due to "Corporate Downsizing", feudal japanese- style), and had little use for personal Honor.

Sure, he was great in his Art, achieving an enlightenment that few reach, but wasn't he really just a sort of bully, or thug, that was good at what he did? There are other guys that were just as great at their Art, but aren't given the same sort of respect or recognition- what about Munenori Yagyu (who wrote some important treatises on swordfighting, just as good as the Five rings and certainly more learned)? or Sasaki Kojiro, or even Muso Gonnosuke himself?

Is it just because corporate america embraced the Five Rings as gospel and decided to market Musashi, or what? Or how about guys from Kyudo, supposedly they acheve much the same sort of enlightenment Musashi did- why aren't people running out to study Kyudo?

Is Musashi worthy of his recognition, and should we emulate him?:confused:

Tony Peters
13th January 2002, 08:40
I hope you have a good rod and reel, cause if anyone bites it'll be quite a fight.

Cady Goldfield
13th January 2002, 12:59
Guess we gotta make the distinction between a man's skill and a man's ethics. IMO, there's no one who should be emulated (with the exception of the divine/religious figure of your choice), only used for gleaning information that we can adapt and apply to further our own knowledge and skill. We will just naturally admire a person who, in addition to having skill, also has character.

I doubt very much that Musashi himself gave a rat's patoot whether anyone admired him; he was a relentlessly self-driven man who was focused only on his own development and perfection in his craft. I get the feeling that he was driven by things he didn't understand himself. According to the writings, in the later part of his life he kept himself in isolation and contemplation. Perhaps because he was trying to come to grips with and control his drives.

Some people make the error of confusing a man's talent with his character, and thus seek to emulate the entire package. I (and many others) believe that it is possible to respect another's knowledge and skill, and to aim our sights higher toward the degree of skill and accomplishment of another, while remaining true ourselves.

We learn a lot from those who walked before us. But we have to keep our feet planted on the Earth and recognize that respecting their skills doesn't mean that we also should emulate their character.

Hey Tony "aikigecko" - what makes you think this is a flame topic? It sounded like a good thinkin' one to me. :)

Paburo
13th January 2002, 15:44
Ok, i view this opinion as an artist painter, if any of you knows Daly's Biography you'll understand such a guy like musashi or De'Ga or even Leonardo da'vinci. all those men had ther own little crazy world wich never assimilate to the morality of their time and that's is one aspect of art or any art wich makes you bright outside from your normal society, wich in this case musashi had that karisma. As an artist in swordmanship rules do not consern him, but his own, and that's the only way he could achved such great high skill assimilating others style to make his own against the other schools.

in a moral society definition you will be an esentric, in a artist point of you you are free of any attachement.

You become a MASTER.

ISN'T WHAT LIFE IS ALL ABOUT?

MASTERING LIFE TO TRASCEND YOUR EVER LASTING SPIRIT INTO A NEW LIGHT?

Paburo
13th January 2002, 15:48
SORRY FOR MY MISPELLING HERE'S A FIXED ONE:

Ok, i view this opinion as an artist painter, if any of you knows Daly's Biography you'll understand such a guy like musashi or De'Ga or even Leonardo da'vinci. all those men had ther own little crazy world wich never assimilate to the morality of their time and that's is one aspect of art or any art wich makes you bright outside from your normal society, wich in this case musashi had that karisma. As an artist in swordmanship rules do not consern him, but his own, and that's the only way he could achved such great high skill assimilating others style to make his own against the other schools.

in a moral society definition, you will be an escentric, in a artist point of VIEW you are free of any attachement.

You become a MASTER.

ISN'T WHAT LIFE IS ALL ABOUT?

MASTERING LIFE TO TRASCEND YOUR EVER LASTING SPIRIT INTO A NEW LIGHT?

fifthchamber
13th January 2002, 18:10
Hi all,
I have to agree basically with Cady here..Musashi certainly comes across as an incredibly determined individual and one who was very good at what he did.
To call him a thug misses the point somewhat..He was a Samurai and was required to act in a certain way in order to get along..To place modern standards of behaviour on him and his beliefs is useless, and as Cady adds Musashi probably would not have given a "Rat's patoot" (!?) what opinions others really had of him.
That, I think was a major part of his charisma...He does not seem to have simply 'accepted' rules that to him were old and obsolete..(Much like a certain B. Lee Sifu in the 60's) And he seems to be pressing forward views on the Bujutsu that are even today very,very relevent.
His personal character I cannot know about...But then nor can anyone here..And it is not worth wasting time on. In his teachings he comes across as a driven, determined, and very good fighter that tried to introduce a new perspective to a society that was driven by 'rules' and 'the system' that he was not part of.
Much like all 'Masters' of anything he broke from the norm and was regarded as perhaps eccentric, arrogant, ego-centric, "Ill kempt" and "Uncouth" by the society that he was a part of. Or not.
Either way we don't know. And insulting anyone after their death with basically not much more than legends and stories of them being 'Thugs' or anything else is pretty disrespectful in Japanese culture...To say nothing of mine!
Bottom line is he was a 'master' and a good enough one to be remembered 350 odd years after his death...More than me in all likelihood.

ben johanson
13th January 2002, 23:22
Sorry guys I just have to jump in here.

I think you are all making the mistake of assuming that what we know of Musashi is 100% accurate and not at all tarnished by five hundred years of legend and folktales. For in Japan, Musashi is exactly that, a legend and a folk hero, so I think it is probably rather difficult to discern truth from fiction with regards to his character, morality, personal hygene, etc. If I'm not mistaken, Gorin no sho is the only extant document written by or about him, and that is not a whole lot to go on in determining what kind of person he actually was (and no, Yoshikawa's Musashi is not an historical text, but rather a work of fiction loosely based on fact). It is because of the above reasons that I think it unwise to look for a martial arts role model or hero in Musashi. If someone wanted to idolize the idealized version of the man with which we are all familiar, that would be their choice, but I think the best martial arts role model a person can have is his teacher. And if an instructor is not worthy of such admiration, he should not be teaching.

stratcat
14th January 2002, 06:26
Interesting replies! Now, it is not my contention to say that Mr. Musashi was indeed a thug or a bully; however, I AM asking those of us who are more learned in the subject than I to provide with some more complete and/or reliable information than what I've been able to gather. Certainly I don't mean to insult anybody here, or Musashi san's reputation based on what I've read in the Five Rings (Thomas Cleary's version) and what is generally available on the 'net. As it is, I'm not too trusting of the "Samurai Trilogy" with Toshiro Mifune as Musashi "gospel"or other comercially available products on Miyamoto Musashi (i.e. Musashi "Fiction").

Like I've stated, I'm only asking if my "first impression" of Musashi is way off the mark or what.

For example, after reading the Book of Five Rings, which I picked up out of pure curiosity, I was fairly startled by it's lack of... I don't know, call it "psychological insight". I won't deny it sums up brilliantly how to act in a non- ambiguous, proactive manner to defeat your enemy, be it 1 or 1000. However, at times it felt like I was reading a cookbook! Again, this is just me and I don' mean to offend anyone! If anything, the Five Rings is so well regarded that I feel like I'm missing something- what is it? Perhaps I was expecting to read the hows and whys Musashi trained the way he did, instead of reading about his end result. To put it another way, maybe I was expecting that he would describe his path, instead he detailed how to walk it. Does this make any sense?

Case in point: I felt so much better reading the Munenori segment of the book, which delves a little bit deeper on the justification for the existance of the warrior, etc, etc. So was Musashi indeed saying that respect for your adversary and personal honor were luxuries irrelevant to the martial arts and what mattered was that you won (sort of a feudal japanese Machiavelli); or are we meant to understand something else- like such matters are to be found by each one alone and are only relevant in each owns personal context?

If indeed we are meant to understand that morality and respect are irrelevant to the LEARNING of the martial arts (Bu-JUTSU, not Bu-DO), what about the warrior's responsibility to society as a whole, where does he learn it? Is it win at ANY COST what Musashi is saying or what?

Just some things that Musashi san left me wondering...

hyaku
14th January 2002, 08:24
Quote:
[However, it is also my understanding that he was a low ranking samurai with little education, and less manners; was somewhat uncouth, shabbily ill dressed, rarely bathed and was generally ill kempt; was fairly boastful and cheated (I mean really, running up to Sasaki Kojiro and smacking him with a boat oar on the head is hardly an honorable way to defeat your opponent, is it?]

I thought you could have perhaps like Musashi use your brain a bit before you started writing.

I was not going to respond to this thread as it seemed to me to be a bit of an insult to his family, the Soke and members of the Niten Ichiryu. Then again I increasingly find the policy of not saying anything a waste of time as sometimes if you never respond, people just dont get the message.

If you anything all of the concept of his Ryu you would know that it is "Seiho" It is based solely on using the offensive actions of an opponent to initiate a devastating attack. Therefore if there is no attack or aggression shown by an opponent there will be no conflict.

The Miyamoto family namely the present 12th generation Miyamoto Iori who lives in Moji has records and facts going way back. He has recently published a book about the excellent character of his ancestor (in Japanese of course).
Members of the Niten Ichiryu visit him occasionaly.

Four times last year I stood in front of Musashi?s epitaph as a few words of respect were said before we practiced there.

You will miss the point if you read Gorin no Sho just as much as if you have read a book on scuba diving but cant swim. There are parts of it that I fail to see of any interest to anyone who does not practice some form of kenjutsu.

Hyakutake Colin

Hyoho Niten Ichiryu - Kageryu

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

Gene Gabel
14th January 2002, 13:23
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stratcat
[B]Interesting replies! Now, it is not my contention to say that Mr. Musashi was indeed a thug or a bully; however, I AM asking those of us who are more learned in the subject than I to provide with some more complete and/or reliable information than what I've been able to gather. Certainly I don't mean to insult anybody here, or Musashi san's reputation based on what I've read in the Five Rings (Thomas Cleary's version) and what is generally available on the 'net. As it is, I'm not too trusting of the "Samurai Trilogy" with Toshiro Mifune as Musashi "gospel"or other comercially available products on Miyamoto Musashi (i.e. Musashi "Fiction").


>>>>
>>>>
I think I see the problem here..
You are talking about one of the other Musashi swordsmen. Out of the 5 to 7 historical swordsmen called Musashi I am sure there was one that had bad hygene and one that was a kind of bully and a least one that was fine .So no one needs to get their hackles up as these are a couple of different swordsmen.

Gene Gabel

Jimmy Francoeur
14th January 2002, 14:29
Hi Everyones!!

The best translation I have read (in french or english) seem to be this one:

A Way to Victory : The Annotated Book of Five Rings by Musashi Miyamoto, Hidy Ochiai (Translator) 248 pages (February 19, 2001, Overlook Press; ISBN: 1585670383

Go to koryu.com for a review of this book by Meik Skoss.

As for Your understanding of Musashi and the gorin no sho, I think You are missing the point (no offense intended). You seem to focus on the small details like Musashi Personal hygiene and forget the social and historical context of the day he was living. I think we are taking the romanticism of the budo for the reality. My guess is that the feudal time was not always that honorable to our present 2002 views.

Finally, I think that the Gorin no sho is indeed a master text. I read a page of it almost every night and by the years I see things that I was not aware years ago. For me this is a master text.
But You will not get much from it on a fast and single read.

P.S. Please, forgive my bad english
:cry:
Have all a nice day :wave:
Jim

Ben Bartlett
14th January 2002, 15:03
Well, he wrote Gorin no Sho, and painted, so he couldn't have been *that* uneducated. As for the rest, it's hard to know the truth from the legend. I have heard that he didn't particularly like to bathe, and had some sort of skin condition, but I'm not sure if that's true. As for the jo, assuming that legend is correct, the jo was specifically developed to defeat Musashi (earlier he had defeated the same fellow, who was using a bo at the time). Of course, it could just be a myth. Assuming the boat oar story is true, the other fellow had a sword, so I don't feel too bad for him.
As for should we emulate him, the man devoted his life to swordsmanship at the expense of everything else. I admire him, but there's no way in heck I'd emulate him. There's no one thing that I wish to devote my entire life to. If anyone out there does wish to emulate him, more power to them.
Oh, and as for him being low-ranking, I'm not sure, but if I remember correctly, his father was also a swordsman of some skill, and at least somewhat well known. Of course, Hyakutake Colin is already posting on this thread, and I'm sure he knows way more about Musashi's history than I do, so maybe I'll just let him cover any salient facts. At any rate, I'm sure Musashi had some faults (hey, he was only human after all... we all have faults), but there was a lot to admire there as well.

Joseph Rasnack
15th January 2002, 21:45
I have been reading this thread with interest. I would like to refer everyone to an interesting article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts (Vol. 8, no. 3, 1999, p. 35-37) titled Letters on Miyamoto Musashi by Donn F. Draeger. It definitely presents a different perspective of Musashi.

Joseph Rasnack

Joseph Svinth
15th January 2002, 23:28
The Draeger letter cited above appears online at http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsdraeger_musashi.htm .

Karl Friday
16th January 2002, 16:56
Another good source for reasonalby accurate information (an excellent summary of what little we really do know about him) is G. Cameron Hurst's 1982 article, "Samurai on Wall Street." It's been reprinted at http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Hurst_0101.htm

Joseph Rasnack
16th January 2002, 22:34
The article by Draeger says that Musashi did not actually write Gorin no Sho, but that it was actually a collection of his sayings written down by his students. This is the only source I have seen to claim this (although there may be others, I don't know). Does anyone have more on this?

Joseph Rasnack

Nathan Scott
16th January 2002, 22:59
Interesting letters by Donn Draeger. I was curious about Guy-san's translation as "Tombstone Book" though:


Although Gorin no sho literally translates as "the Scroll of Five Wheels [or Spheres]," Guy Power, the US director of the International Iai-Battodo Federation, suggests that a better contextual translation might be "The Tombstone Book." The reason is that in Japanese a gorin is a tombstone, and a gorinto is a five-tiered stupa whose geomantic configurations match those of Musashi's book.

The main entry in the modern dictionary I'm looking at also lists the primary definition of "gorin" as "rings, circles".

However, gorin is also the Japanese term for the early Chinese cosmology concept of "five elements" (same kanji); Earth, Fire, Metal, Water & Wood. According to notes I have from one of my mentors, Musashi substituted the "metal" and "wood" elements in favor of "wind" and "emptiness (void)" to better fit his concepts.

A "gorin no to" (five tier pagoda) is featured on the cover of Watanabe's little (Japanese) version of "Gorin (no) Sho", but this seems to have been a choice in illustrations - that include Musashi's five elements in kanji next to each tier - rather than a literal symbol of his teachings.

In other words, to literally translate the volumes as the "Tombstone Book" does not convey the concept of the Japanese title. To use "Tombstone" in the translation may be reading more into the term that was intended in the choice of phrasing. A gorin burial pagoda, if I understand correctly(?), is structured in such a way as to symbolize the stages and transformation of a human from his creation to his death.

Translations of the name that I've come across and seem more appropriate to the nature of Musashi's writings are, IMHO, are "A Treatise of the Five Elements", or simply, "The Five Elements".

Just a long winded observation.

Usagi
17th January 2002, 01:12
Originally posted by stratcat
First of all: No offense intended! This IS a serious question.

However, it is also my understanding that he was a low ranking samurai with little education, and less manners; was somewhat uncouth, shabbily ill dressed, rarely bathed and was generally ill kempt; was fairly boastful and cheated (I mean really, running up to Sasaki Kojiro and smacking him with a boat oar on the head is hardly an honorable way to defeat your opponent, is it?); despite the fact that he was unbeaten in head to head combat, his army got its collective butt kicked in the ONE army scale battle he was involved; was beaten by a guy with a Jo, not a fellow kenshin; became a ronin, not because his master was killed, but because he couldn't afford to pay his retainers (basically he was fired due to "Corporate Downsizing", feudal japanese- style), and had little use for personal Honor.

Is Musashi worthy of his recognition, and should we emulate him?:confused:

First thing you should have in mind is this:

If you haven't seen him, you don't know who he was!

The Real Musashi is very much like the Real Jesus.

We have no idea of how he was.

Jesus was from the midle east, a jew from a current that didn't bath often (a Nazaren, detail that Hollywood often ignores) and was a carpenter.

The majour source we have about him are the writings of his own disciples...

The only good hints to "who Musashi KenSei was" are:

-His paintings;
-His sculptures;
-His writings and
-His school.

By "only good hints" i mean that from the works you are able to get a glimpse of the feelings, emotions and dreams of the artist.

You asked two questions:

"Is Musashi worthy of his recognition?"

His works are still treasured by people all over the world.

From the thousands of warriors of the begining of the Edo period, he is among the few that are still remembered.

"should we emulate him?"

Why?

He was a 16/17 century warrior. Why emulate him?

On the other hand, why emulate Ueshiba or Martin Luther King?

I think trying to learn who I am and how to be sincere within my heart is already a great task.

It is the only thing all great men have in comom (they knew who they were).

The GoRinNoSho is very disappointing to people looking for "fortune-cookie wisdom".

Right in the Earth Scroll Musashi Sama gives out the Gokui to usefully reading his book:

"Nurture the ability to perceive the truth in all matters. ";
"Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye. "

I took this from Hyakutake Colin's page (which i strongly recommend!).

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hyoho1.html

With enough backup, GoRinNoSHo is an endless source of guiding in anything.

Without it, it is just a technical guide for sword work.

My spoon full of sugar...

stratcat
17th January 2002, 07:41
:eek:
Okay, Okay! Listen, I'll say this again, my intention is not to offend- these are the things I've read on Musashi's life, and thus that is my first impression of him. Being a lawyer by trade, I DO know how to do a little research, and being a criminal law specialist by vocation, I DO know how to rate a source's credibility. Sure, I wrote "Musashi was a Thug"- got your attention didn't it? A lot more than if I had written "Who was Musashi and why is he important?"

THEREFORE: I KNOW that Musashi is extremely well regarded in Japan as a folk hero and specially among Kenjutsuka who see him as their "saint"; heck, my teacher practically worships him!. So, I apologize if any offense has been taken by practioners of Niten Ichi Ryu or assorted kenjutsu-ists. My intent is to get to the deeper truth behind the surface sheen of Musashi's "Legend", not to disparage anybody.

HAVING SAID THAT: If my first impression of Musashi is wrong, don't insult my intelligence- I'm not after "fortune cookie wisdom" and don't give me any witty riposte (pun intended) or semi offensive remarks- tell me WHY I'm wrong and back it up! -And don't tell me "...'cause he was cool! (cue Beavis and Butthead laugh)". I want an academic discussion, with Martial Artists who are more learned in the subject than I. Mssrs. Svinth's, Rasnack's and Friday's posts in this sense are most helpful! I find Musashi's character both fascinating and enigmatic, and paradoxical enough to suit my own mercurial nature, so I want to know why so many people admire him. :redhot:

BY THE BY: I DO practice martial arts, Aikido and Ju-Jutsu, so, in keeping with the SCUBA diving reference, I can at least "swim". Mr. Hyakutake, our teacher is going to start teaching kenjutsu again to his higher ranked students and I was honored to be chosen, so I'll be learning to "SCUBA dive" soon enough! In any case, some people may not know how to swim, but you CAN tell them who Jacques Cousteau was and why he was important to SCUBA divers, hmmm? ...cough cough.

Furthermore, in your opinion, if some of Gorin No Sho is useless to all but Kenjutsuka, why was the book such a big hit on Wall Street way back when?

In any case, keep the replies coming. After all that's the idea behind this forum- let's trade information. Only through consultation with the experts can the mistruths of Martial Arts be dispelled! :laugh:

Joseph Svinth
17th January 2002, 12:31
Since you're looking for academic input, here's Prof. Bodiford, from his essay, "Written Texts: Japan," in _Martial Arts of the World: An Encyclopedia_, ed. by Thomas A. Green (Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO, 2001):

1. Volume 2, page 762

"The most notable [swordplay adventure], perhaps, is the 1953 novel _Miyamoto Musashi_ by Yoshikawa Eiji (1892-1962). This novel (which was translated into English in 1981) more than anything else helped transform the popular image of Miyamoto Musashi (1584-1645) from that of a brutal killer into one of an enlightened master of self-cultivation."

2. Volume 2, pages 765-766

"The earliest extant martial art treatises are _Heiho kadensho_ (Our Family's Tradition of Swordsmanship, 1632) by Yagyu Munenori (1571-1646) and _Gorin no sho_ (Five Elemental Spheres, 1643) by Miyamoto Musashi... Until modern times both texts were secret initiation documents. Like other initiation document they contain vocabulary that cannot be fathomed by outsiders who lack training in their respective martial arts styles. For this reason, the modern interpretations and translations that have appeared so far in publications intended for a general audience have failed to do them justice. In some cases, the specialized martial art terminology in these works has been interpreted and translated into English in the most fanciful ways (e.g., Suzuki 1959).

... _Gorin no sho_ eschews the philosophical reflection found in _Heiho kadensho_ and concentrates almost exclusively on fighting techniques... Throughout the work, Musashi's style is terse to the point of incomprehensibility. In spite of his use of the elemental scehme to give his work some semblance of structure, the individual sections lack any internal organization whatsoever. Some assertions reappear in several different contexts without adding any new information. Much of what can be understood appears self-contradictory. This unintelligibility, however, allows the text to function as Rorschach inkblots within which modern readers (businessmen, perhaps) can discover many possible meanings."

Ben Bartlett
17th January 2002, 13:52
Furthermore, in your opinion, if some of Gorin No Sho is useless to all but Kenjutsuka, why was the book such a big hit on Wall Street way back when?

Because back in the 80's, when Japan's economy was booming, many American businessmen were silly enough to believe that the Japanese had some ancient secret which made them really good businessmen. The people who published Gorin no Sho took full advantage of this. You ever see those commercials for beauty products which tell American women that they now can use products that European women have been using for ages to stay young/beautiful/etc? Same basic idea. Of course, Gorin no Sho has nothing to do with business, and the idea of the Japanese as superior businessmen went out the window after the bubble burst in Japan, while the American economy grew stronger. At any rate, as one of the articles listed above mentions, the values Musashi embodied are frankly closer to traditional American values than Japanese ones. "Concern for the group over the individual" is not what comes to mind when I think of Musashi. At any rate, why anyone thought that a 17th century treatise on swordsmanship had anything to do with today's business practices is beyond me.

fifthchamber
17th January 2002, 14:34
Hello again all,
It has already been posted but maybe missed by some here..The best article that I have read on the whole 'Businessman Musashi Phenomenon' is one at the EJMAS site called "Samurai on Wall Street" by G. Cameron Hurst. (Check Dr. Friday's post above for the link)
The article covers a lot of the very same points that are under question here and is a very good/comprehensive summary of how a trend gets started and why some people go for it full throttle.
It will answer those questions for you.
Abayo.

Dave Lowry
17th January 2002, 17:06
Dear Mr. Gomez,
Your initial inquiry is a priori questionable. Your conjecture is, if I am reading you correctly, that Musashi is “revered” or at least held "in great regard as a folk hero" by many Japanese, especially by practitioners of classical martial arts. You wonder why, given that certain details about his life lead one to conclude that whatever else he may have been, he was something of a lout.

Restated in a different way, how would we entertain the same question from a Japanese: Robin Hood is hugely admired by legions of Westerners, especially archers, and I wonder why, in light of the fact he was essentially a bandit?
Your reply would likely be to patiently explain that most Westerners don’t give a rip one way or another about Robin Hood, a semi-mythical figure out of the distant past, unless a movie or book about him would be currently popular. And under those circumstances, they would be more attracted to the glamourized, Hollywood incarnation of Robin Hood than to any historically verifiable person by that name.

Musashi’s “popularity” among the general public in Japan has been similar to that of a character from a Clint Eastwood film or a James F. Cooper novel. Rugged individual on a “quest” for something or other, operating alone, a romantic figure. The majority of Japanese know of Musashi the same way we know of Robin Hood, through movies and novels. The notion that Japanese businessmen are perusing Musashi’s writings to gain an edge in their professions has more to do with ambitious publicity on the part of publishers hyping their English translations of Musashi’s book than to any reality.

I am acquainted with a fair number of exponents of koryu sword arts in Japan and I don’t know a single one who holds Musashi in any kind of special regard. The idea that he would be considered a “saint” is curious. Maybe in popular martial arts literature. But I’ve never heard his name even mentioned in a koryu dojo in the context of a role model or an expert on technique or strategy. That’s why I said your inquiry was a priori flawed. It seems as though you have extrapolated that because Musashi has a following among the Japanese public (which he really doesn’t), he is a revered figure among Japanese budoka (which he isn’t).

I suspect Musashi is a much more popular figure among Western martial arts enthusiasts than he is in Japan simply because his works are among the few that have been translated. And because he fits the profile—at least in his fictional form—of our heroes, as noted above. If your teacher’s adulation for Musashi comes because you are a member of some ryu to which he is connected, I suppose that’s understandable. If not, it would be interesting to ask your teacher why he isn’t as enamoured of the ancestral figures of his own ryu.

Cordially,

pgsmith
17th January 2002, 22:06
Thank You Dave,
I was thinking something very similar to what you just wrote, but I do not have anywhere near your ability to convey my thoughts to writing.

Regards,

Yamantaka
17th January 2002, 22:19
Originally posted by stratcat
:eek:
Okay, Okay! Listen, I'll say this again, my intention is not to offend- these are the things I've read on Musashi's life, and thus that is my first impression of him. Being a lawyer by trade, I DO know how to do a little research, and being a criminal law specialist by vocation, I DO know how to rate a source's credibility.


YAMANTAKA : Knowing many lawyers, as well as representatives from other professions, I DO KNOW that no one is much better than anybody else and they are subject to mistakes and misunderstandings as everybody else. Of course, my intention also is not to offend...


Originally posted by stratcat
THEREFORE: I KNOW that Musashi is extremely well regarded in Japan as a folk hero and specially among Kenjutsuka who see him as their "saint"; heck, my teacher practically worships him!. So, I apologize if any offense has been taken by practioners of Niten Ichi Ryu or assorted kenjutsu-ists. My intent is to get to the deeper truth behind the surface sheen of Musashi's "Legend", not to disparage anybody.


YAMANTAKA : Your misconception has already been answered.


Originally posted by stratcat
HAVING SAID THAT: I want an academic discussion, with Martial Artists who are more learned in the subject than I. Mssrs. Svinth's, Rasnack's and Friday's posts in this sense are most helpful! I find Musashi's character both fascinating and enigmatic, and paradoxical enough to suit my own mercurial nature, so I want to know why so many people admire him. :redhot:


YAMANTAKA : Your nature is mercurial indeed! And if you want an academic discussion you shouldn't come here. Even if we have many highly intelligent people of academic acumen, this list is for everybody, its objective to exchange ideas. We have people here who do not practice martial arts; who have no academic formation; who sometimes can't even spell it right...We are all here to discuss ideas and to learn. If you want academic answers perhaps the University would be the better place for you to go. And, please, why the "redhot" smiley ?



Originally posted by stratcat
BY THE BY: I DO practice martial arts, Aikido and Ju-Jutsu, so, in keeping with the SCUBA diving reference, I can at least "swim". Mr. Hyakutake, our teacher is going to start teaching kenjutsu again to his higher ranked students and I was honored to be chosen, so I'll be learning to "SCUBA dive" soon enough!

YAMANTAKA : A bit arrogant, don't you think so? Some people on this list have been learning Koryu or Gendai arts for more than 30 years and they think they are still LEARNING. You'll "be learning to SCUBA dive SOON ENOUGH..." What do you mean by that? That you are beginning to learn Kenjutsu and, SOON ENOUGH, you will know it all ? Sorry, if that is what you intended to say, I believe you're much better than all of us put together!


Originally posted by stratcat
Furthermore, in your opinion, if some of Gorin No Sho is useless to all but Kenjutsuka, why was the book such a big hit on Wall Street way back when?

YAMANTAKA : Because of something called FAD and another thing called MARKETING. People will always believe nonsense spread by the Media. :laugh:


Originally posted by stratcat
In any case, keep the replies coming.

YAMANTAKA : That's what I did. By the way, what other books did you read besides the "Book of 5 Rings" ? And what pages on the Internet did you consult before asking your questions at E-Budo?
Best

Tony Peters
18th January 2002, 04:40
Cady had a point about taking the whole person as geat because they had one exceptional part. A very good modern example of this would be Demo Dick Marcinko. Argueablly one of the finest SpecWarriors this nation has produced. He is also a convicted fellon...for good reason. His ideas on tactics and training were ahead of his time however he was also likely a complete A$$4013 . Take the good with the bad and don't discount the good because of the bad.

hyaku
18th January 2002, 04:54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by stratcat
[B]:eek:
Okay, Okay! Listen, I'll say this again, my intention is not to offend- these are the things I've read on Musashi's life, and thus that is my first impression of him. Being a lawyer by trade, I DO know how to do a little research, and being a criminal law specialist by vocation, I DO know how to rate a source's credibility. Sure, I wrote "Musashi was a Thug"- got your attention didn't it? A lot more than if I had written "Who was Musashi and why is he important?"
.................................

Sure it got my attention. But I am not one of your criminal cases and I am not on the witness stand. Your research seems to be minimal. Had you read any of the Buddhist Sutras as Imai Soke suggests. Have you read the Tannisho of Shinran Shonin? All good reading to get a better idea of the deep meaning of the Japanese texts of Gorin no sho. Then if you studied Ogasawara Ryu. The ryu which teaches the reiho used by the thug you mention, you might be able to bow correctly enough to enter the Heiho sho and learn some of the practical side of things.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stratcat
My intent is to get to the deeper truth behind the surface sheen of Musashi's "Legend", not to disparage anybody.
...................

Sadly if you want anybody to open up and tell you more, I think you will have to alter your approach in broaching a subject. It may work in a court but you wont get much help from me.

You will have to be satisfied with what you can glean from the sparse English translations of the manuscripts of the five elements and opinions from qualified Westerners and Japanese that have never even been shown how to hold and use a Niten Ichiryu bokuto.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stratcat
but you CAN tell them who Jacques Cousteau was and why he was important to SCUBA divers, hmmm? ...cough cough.
......................

I have Divemasters and rescue divers card too but you would not be on my list as the the first to be rescued if I had to choose!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by stratcat
In any case, keep the replies coming.
......................

There I have to decline also. I will bow out of this conversation. Sue me?

Hyakutake Colin

charlesl
18th January 2002, 05:48
Stratcat wrote:
Okay, Okay! Listen, I'll say this again, my intention is not to offend- these are the things I've read on Musashi's life, and thus that is my first impression of him. Being a lawyer by trade, I DO know how to do a little research, and being a criminal law specialist by vocation, I DO know how to rate a source's credibility. Sure, I wrote "Musashi was a Thug"- got your attention didn't it? A lot more than if I had written "Who was Musashi and why is he important?"


Trollish behavior catches attention, but loses respect. Just an fyi.

-Charles Lockhart

red_fists
18th January 2002, 06:14
Hi.

Personally, I see him more along the lines of a "Robin Hood".
Not not that he robbd the poor and gave to the rich.

But that his skills and motives were changed and glorified over the times.

Why do I say that, is because I once read a version of Robin Hood that made much more sense to me.

In this Version he was a young reckless Boy/Man with lofty goals and ideas.
He robbed the rich, but when the peasants were put under pressure to reveal his hiding place he basically "bought" his freedom and their silence from them by giving them part of his loot.

And hence the Legend was born of Robin Hood who robbed the rich and gave to the poor.

Just some thoughts.

Yamantaka
18th January 2002, 10:39
Originally posted by Tony Peters
Take the good with the bad and don't discount the good because of the bad.

YAMANTAKA : The same thing happened with Richard Wagner. A fantastic musician, in my opinion, but an awful human being. according to some of his biographers, he was a leech who not only lived at the expenses of his friends but also bedded their wives. And he used to say that the world had an obligation to sustent him, since he was a genius...
Not someone we might wish to emulate but surely a great musician whom we admire.
Best

Kim Taylor
18th January 2002, 13:26
re:

I am acquainted with a fair number of exponents of koryu sword arts in Japan and I don’t know a single one who holds Musashi in any kind of special regard. The idea that he would be considered a “saint” is curious. Maybe in popular martial arts literature. But I’ve never heard his name even mentioned in a koryu dojo in the context of a role model or an expert on technique or strategy.That’s why I said your inquiry was a priori flawed. It seems as though you have extrapolated that because Musashi has a following among the Japanese public (which he really doesn’t), he is a revered figure among Japanese budoka (which he isn’t).

=============

There's a transcription of a speach that Yagyu Nobuhara gave in NYC in TIN from 1995 at:

http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9509&L=iaido-l&F=&S=&P=4243

or if you can't get it from there go to the National Library of Canada at:

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/202/300/iaido/1995/tin62.html

He seems to think enough of Musashi to mention him.

And before anybody asks, yes the entire collection of TIN/JJSA is now bound and available, I just don't have it up on http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/ yet but I'll get around to it eventually.

Kim Taylor

Gil Gillespie
19th January 2002, 22:14
Just for the number and quality of posts and posters this thread has elicited it is hands down the best e-budo thread in months. Hearty thanks to all for the lively discussion above.

The heart of the discussion seems to be polarized on an either-or perspective; Musashi was both. He was the uncouth thug who slaughtered all those enemies before he was 30, and he also was the master strategist who left us Go Rin No Sho. In addition, his surviving sumi-e paintings and wooden sculpture(s) are revered national treasures, even if not certified so in the peculiar way the Japanese have for bestowing that title.

As a pure fighting swordsman and as a reflective elder warrior/philosopher his life is worthy of study; his legacy is deserved. In this regard the personage he recalls to me personally is Malcolm X. They both embody the truth that "it ain't where yer from, it's where ya go!" Malcolm Little was an admitted street criminal who became Malcolm X, who's legacy was to empower the dispossessed to the highroad both spiritually and socially (even though it took us white folks a little longer to get the joke).

As to the lasting validity of Go Rin No Sho, its wide application is made possible by the same poetry that makes it confusing. This recalls Gerhard Hauptmann's timeless assessment that poetry's role is "to reveal The Word behind the words." This makes the constant rereading of Musashi over the years as the pleasurable process it is (and renders Cleary's and Kaufman's translations as misleading personal interpretation in the former and empty paraphrasing in the latter). Each reader's journey will establish the worth of his own process.

stratcat
19th January 2002, 23:43
What a can of worms! :D Mr. Yamantaka, just for the record, you are absolutely right, everybody is subject to mistakes and such, lawyers sometimes even more than other, more technical professions! :smash: In any case, I didn't mean to say that I WILL HAVE learned to swim soon enough; I'm well aware that taking up any Art, Koryu or Gendai is a lifetime's study. What I meant to say is that will START (begin) learning kenjutsu in a few weeks (when our teacher starts up his classes again). :karatekid This is my reason behind my interest in Musashi; in that same sense I've also become interested in Yagyu Munenori and Muso Gonnosuke. It's just that these historical characters are less "difficult" than Musashi.

As for my reading on the subject, like I said, I have only been able to gather enough on Musashi for a first impression. I live in Costa Rica, thus direct research material is hard to come by. Undfortunately, the University of Costa Rica has no Japanese Culture Studies section to speak of, nor are there any schools of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu to go to, nor are there any Kendo clubs; and as I don't speak japanese I have to rely on qualified western experts. Obviously I consulted my teacher, as well as some old martial arts encylopedias that we have at the dojo (I didn't write the author's name down, sorry; I'll post them later). I also read the Thomas Cleary version of Go Rin No Sho, as well as the Hagakure, Ratti and Westbrooks Secrets of the Samurai and Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook for background info.

For the Web search, I used the usual suspects- Yahoo, Lycos, Hotbot and Altavista, using "Miyamoto Musashi" ("Biography of" as well), "Ni Ten Ichi Ryu" ("Niten Ichi Ryu"), "Go Rin No Sho", "Book of Five Rings" as describers. I eliminated from my list the strictly commercial sites, as well as those that were just patently wrong, and I filtered the dojos, as those really don't have much information generally. Interestingly, a good site on Musashi can be found through the Usagi Yojimbo site (Miyamoto Usagi)! I also used www.koryubooks.com and www.samurai-archives.com for background info.

Some of the better sites are:
www.geocities.com/Collosseum/1705/musashi.hmtl
www.samurai.com/5rings/transintro
www.geocities.com/georgemccall/fhead.html
www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/niten.htm
www.leader-values.com/leader%20values/lead7htm

And I recently found this other site, which is pretty good as it breaks down Musashi's life by years:
www.crosswinds.net/~musashi1584/musashi/bios/bios1/bios1.htm

As I searched, I found there are hundreds of pages that have Miyamoto Musashi in there somewhere, but not many with more in depth discussions of Musashi's life. In fact most are but a page or two, and always seem to repeat the same information, as if they're all getting it from the same source ...Oh well, as I said, just enough for a first impression.

Mr. Charlesl, you're also very much right, trollish behaviour isn't always the best way to get info, but I felt it best to get a "rise" out of some people and not the standard "party line" on Musashi; y'know the whole socratic dialectic thang, y'dig? But seriously, I felt it best to get the info I needed. I knew some people would be offended, but I hoped the more mature and knowledgeable would pay heed to my entreaty of non- offense, and rather point me in the right direction.

In fact, I regret that Mr. Hyakutake would take such personal offense at my approach, as it seems he has very direct access to resources that are quite valuable, and perhaps he could have shared them. I would rather he had pointed to me to his own web page, which is also very informative:
www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hyoho2.html

In any case, I feel (for me at least) that Musashi was very much an extremist in his pragmatism, but no less a man of and from his time (hence his artwork, which is indeed impressive and beautiful). Since the details of his life are very much sketchy, he has now become a "Robin Hood" figure through western comecialization (although I admit I am intrigued by the Malcolm X metaphor- what d'y'all think?). Like his writings, he is also now sufficiently ambiguous enough to have turned into a sort of historical Rohrshach test, where each one of us sees something different, like someone said earlier.

Speaking of historical, are there any web pages on the Niten- ki, which is, I understand, an account of his deeds, written by his students, after he died? :look:

Soulend
20th January 2002, 11:59
Hi all. Due to my crappy connection I haven't viewed all the replies to this thread, so please forgive any duplication of points already made or comments already spoken. I am only replying to the original post.

I don't really understand how he could be considered a 'thug' or 'bully' based on the reasons presented. He was supposedly a brash fellow, unwashed and unkempt for the most part, however, this was apparently overlooked by at least one daimyo who had Musashi as his personal guest, and thought enough of him to ask Musashi to review his samurai. So if he could overlook Musashi's failings in etiquette and personal hygiene, I suppose I can as well.

He was a lower ranking samurai, but I don't think this neccesarily makes one a thug. There were many great warriors that arose from very humble beginnings.

As to the duel with Sasaki Kojiro, unless I'm mistaken the story goes that they struck simultaneously, but Sasaki's cut only sliced off Musashi's headband. I would think defeating a famous and extremely skillful swordsman with only a boat oar is quite honorable indeed! It's a moot point anyway, since there is no evidence that Sasaki ever even existed.

His army was defeated at Sekigahara, if I remember right. Don't think you can really blame a soldier for their army's defeat-especially a topsy turvy mess like that one.

Does being beaten by a person with a Jo, or having to freelance because you can no longer afford to pay retainers make you a thug?

Why do you say he had "little use for personal Honor"?

I'm sure the guy wasn't exactly a saint, but he was pretty remarkable. In addition to his martial skill, he also produced paintings, calligraphy, wood sculpture, and tsuba of excellent quality. He is rumored to have written a number of poems as well, although I'm not sure if any of these have survived.

I think he is a popular figure because of the folklore and legends that surround him.

Quote:
Or how about guys from Kyudo, supposedly they acheve much the same sort of enlightenment Musashi did- why aren't people running out to study Kyudo?

I don't think people are exactly 'running out' to be accepted into the Ni Ten Ryu either...are they?

Yamantaka
20th January 2002, 12:46
Originally posted by stratcat
I didn't mean to say that I WILL HAVE learned to swim soon enough; I'm well aware that taking up any Art, Koryu or Gendai is a lifetime's study. What I meant to say is that will START (begin) learning kenjutsu in a few weeks (when our teacher starts up his classes again). :karatekid

YAMANTAKA : And that means that you'll have to travel a long road until you may be able to criticize or pontificate on the points involved...


Originally posted by stratcat
As for my reading on the subject, like I said, I have only been able to gather enough on Musashi for a first impression. Undfortunately, the University of Costa Rica has no Japanese Culture Studies section to speak of, nor are there any schools of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu to go to, nor are there any Kendo clubs; and as I don't speak japanese I have to rely on qualified western experts. I also read the Thomas Cleary version of Go Rin No Sho, as well as the Hagakure, Ratti and Westbrooks Secrets of the Samurai and Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook for background info.
For the Web search, I used the usual suspects- Yahoo, Lycos, Hotbot and Altavista, using "Miyamoto Musashi" ("Biography of" as well), "Ni Ten Ichi Ryu" ("Niten Ichi Ryu"), "Go Rin No Sho", "Book of Five Rings" as describers. I eliminated from my list the strictly commercial sites, as well as those that were just patently wrong, and I filtered the dojos, as those really don't have much information generally. Interestingly, a good site on Musashi can be found through the Usagi Yojimbo site (Miyamoto Usagi)! I also used www.koryubooks.com and www.samurai-archives.com for background info.

YAMANTAKA : Again you confess to have little knowledge about the things you're talking about. The Internet is a dangerous place and much of the information therein is wrong. The correct name of the art is HYOHO NITEN ICHI RYU. Since you do not have any extensive knowledge, you should admit that your "elimination and filtering" were very poor.


Originally posted by stratcat
Mr. Charlesl, you're also very much right, trollish behaviour isn't always the best way to get info, but I felt it best to get a "rise" out of some people and not the standard "party line" on Musashi; y'know the whole socratic dialectic thang, y'dig? But seriously, I felt it best to get the info I needed. I knew some people would be offended, but I hoped the more mature and knowledgeable would pay heed to my entreaty of non- offense, and rather point me in the right direction.

YAMANTAKA : On the contrary, the more mature and knowledgeable people will dislike strongly your bad manners and probably would not answer you.


Originally posted by stratcat
In fact, I regret that Mr. Hyakutake would take such personal offense at my approach, as it seems he has very direct access to resources that are quite valuable, and perhaps he could have shared them. I would rather he had pointed to me to his own web page, which is also very informative:
www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hyoho2.html

YAMANTAKA : It's not very informative, IT'S ONE OF THE VERY BEST ON MUSASHI AND HYOHO NITEN ICHI RYU, since Hyakutake Colin is an advanced student of MASAYUKI IMAI Sensei. He could have shared them with you as he did to me, if you haven't been so clumsy...
I sincerely hope you behavior improves in the future.

Ben Bartlett
21st January 2002, 14:07
In fact, I regret that Mr. Hyakutake would take such personal offense at my approach, as it seems he has very direct access to resources that are quite valuable, and perhaps he could have shared them.

[preaching mode: on]
Studying a koryu takes a lot of work and a real lifetime devotion, both of which Mr. Hyakutake has obviously given towards Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, and you've just started a thread by calling the founder of that school a thug. Insulting the founder of his school in turn insults him, so it's pretty natural that he'd be upset. If it was not your intention to offend, perhaps you might have wanted to word that differently. Something along the lines of, "What do we really know about Musashi?" or, "Musashi: what's myth and what isn't?" might have been better. I don't think anyone here minds discussing what Musashi was really like (or at least what little we know of him), but starting off by insulting him is not the way to foster open discussion... it's just likely to offend a lot of people and to put them on the defensive. Frankly, you're lucky you received so many reasonable replies. I realize it was not your intent to offend, but intention means little without proper action to achieve that intent. If you don't wish to offend, find less offensive ways of starting discussions. Attacking a man many people admire (or in some cases, follow the teachings of) is not a good way to do that.
[preaching mode: off]

Matt Whittle
22nd January 2002, 04:28
Picking up Kim Taylor's point (above), I was skimming through my copy of Diane Skoss' Koryu Bujutsu last night and noticed the following extract from Liam Keeley's interview with Kato Takashi, the 21st headmaster of the Tatsumi-ryu:

"Q: Are there any martial artists in history whom you particularly respect and admire?

A: Tatsumi-ryu founder Tatsumi Sankyo would be one, of course. Also, Niten Ichi-ryu founder Miyamoto Musashi [1584-1645] and Muto-ryu founder Yamaoka Tesshu [1836-1888]. These three in particular I consider to have been great men who, despite the fact that they lived during three entirely different ages, were the highest caliber of human beings. They made some of the greatest strides of any historical figure towards the attainment of true wisdom and enlightenment."

Certainly some strong words in rebuttal of stratcat's original post.

Regards,

Matt

Rog
29th June 2014, 15:46
It's been some time since this can of worms was opened.
I'm curious what you have concluded at this point in time regarding Miyamoto Musashi ( ? ).

Note - personally I don't understand why anyone got offended regarding your initial post,
since you did put an immediate disclaimer that your intent was not to offend but to learn.....

As to killing Sasaki Kojiro, it is my understanding that Musashi used a bokken which he carved from a boat oar while enroute to the place of battle which was an island some few miles from Ogura.

Just my take, on an age old topic of wide interest.....

Rog P




What a can of worms! :D Mr. Yamantaka, just for the record, you are absolutely right, everybody is subject to mistakes and such, lawyers sometimes even more than other, more technical professions! :smash: In any case, I didn't mean to say that I WILL HAVE learned to swim soon enough; I'm well aware that taking up any Art, Koryu or Gendai is a lifetime's study. What I meant to say is that will START (begin) learning kenjutsu in a few weeks (when our teacher starts up his classes again). :karatekid This is my reason behind my interest in Musashi; in that same sense I've also become interested in Yagyu Munenori and Muso Gonnosuke. It's just that these historical characters are less "difficult" than Musashi.

As for my reading on the subject, like I said, I have only been able to gather enough on Musashi for a first impression. I live in Costa Rica, thus direct research material is hard to come by. Undfortunately, the University of Costa Rica has no Japanese Culture Studies section to speak of, nor are there any schools of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu to go to, nor are there any Kendo clubs; and as I don't speak japanese I have to rely on qualified western experts. Obviously I consulted my teacher, as well as some old martial arts encylopedias that we have at the dojo (I didn't write the author's name down, sorry; I'll post them later). I also read the Thomas Cleary version of Go Rin No Sho, as well as the Hagakure, Ratti and Westbrooks Secrets of the Samurai and Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook for background info.

For the Web search, I used the usual suspects- Yahoo, Lycos, Hotbot and Altavista, using "Miyamoto Musashi" ("Biography of" as well), "Ni Ten Ichi Ryu" ("Niten Ichi Ryu"), "Go Rin No Sho", "Book of Five Rings" as describers. I eliminated from my list the strictly commercial sites, as well as those that were just patently wrong, and I filtered the dojos, as those really don't have much information generally. Interestingly, a good site on Musashi can be found through the Usagi Yojimbo site (Miyamoto Usagi)! I also used www.koryubooks.com and www.samurai-archives.com for background info.

Some of the better sites are:
www.geocities.com/Collosseum/1705/musashi.hmtl
www.samurai.com/5rings/transintro
www.geocities.com/georgemccall/fhead.html
www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/8187/niten.htm
www.leader-values.com/leader%20values/lead7htm

And I recently found this other site, which is pretty good as it breaks down Musashi's life by years:
www.crosswinds.net/~musashi1584/musashi/bios/bios1/bios1.htm

As I searched, I found there are hundreds of pages that have Miyamoto Musashi in there somewhere, but not many with more in depth discussions of Musashi's life. In fact most are but a page or two, and always seem to repeat the same information, as if they're all getting it from the same source ...Oh well, as I said, just enough for a first impression.

Mr. Charlesl, you're also very much right, trollish behaviour isn't always the best way to get info, but I felt it best to get a "rise" out of some people and not the standard "party line" on Musashi; y'know the whole socratic dialectic thang, y'dig? But seriously, I felt it best to get the info I needed. I knew some people would be offended, but I hoped the more mature and knowledgeable would pay heed to my entreaty of non- offense, and rather point me in the right direction.

In fact, I regret that Mr. Hyakutake would take such personal offense at my approach, as it seems he has very direct access to resources that are quite valuable, and perhaps he could have shared them. I would rather he had pointed to me to his own web page, which is also very informative:
www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hyoho2.html

In any case, I feel (for me at least) that Musashi was very much an extremist in his pragmatism, but no less a man of and from his time (hence his artwork, which is indeed impressive and beautiful). Since the details of his life are very much sketchy, he has now become a "Robin Hood" figure through western comecialization (although I admit I am intrigued by the Malcolm X metaphor- what d'y'all think?). Like his writings, he is also now sufficiently ambiguous enough to have turned into a sort of historical Rohrshach test, where each one of us sees something different, like someone said earlier.

Speaking of historical, are there any web pages on the Niten- ki, which is, I understand, an account of his deeds, written by his students, after he died? :look:

Andrew S
29th June 2014, 21:31
Wow, resurrecting a 12 year old thread!

The problem with Musashi is separating fact (we have a few of these) from speculation and fiction and folklore.
For example, it is believed that Kojiro was in fact quite older than Musashi, although the pair are commonly depicted as being the same age.
We don't know if Kojiro was killed outright, or if in fact he was dispatched of after the fact.

What we are left with is essentially a book which is not easily understood (some sources even suggest he asked for it to be destroyed upon his death), some art work and a fighting system.

I'll let the experts correct me if I'm wrong.

Aden
30th June 2014, 01:51
"We don't know if Kojiro was killed outright, or if in fact he was dispatched of after the fact."

One thing since the original thread 12 years ago was the 2010 article by Hosokawa Morihiro saying his family archive records it as dispatched after the fact by Musashi's students.

Andrew S
30th June 2014, 02:24
Thanks, Aden.