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CEB
13th January 2002, 23:09
Judge Says Bowing Is OK in Judo



By Associated Press
SEATTLE -- Requiring judo contestants to bow to the mat before a picture of the founder of the Japanese martial art does not violate freedom of religion, a federal judge has ruled.

In a 13-page decision Thursday, U.S. District Judge Robert S. Lasnik dissolved an injunction that allowed James and Leilani Akiyama, 17 and 14, and Jay Drangeid, 40, all of Bellevue, to compete in the United States since 1997 without observing the ritual.

They previously lost in three arbitration rulings in the United States, and a complaint they filed in Canada was rejected by the British Columbia Human Rights Commission in February.

Lasnik rejected their assertion that mandatory bowing violates the Civil Rights Act of 1964, writing that they failed to show an intent to discriminate on the basis of religion.

"Virtually any restriction or regulation imposed by a public accommodation could impinge upon a person's religious beliefs because such beliefs ... are of the individual adherent's own making," he wrote.

Bowing remains a requirement in international judo competition, a "legitimate, nondiscriminatory justification" for a similar requirement within the United States, the judge added.

"I'm very pleased," Jim Bregman, president of the U.S. Judo Association, said. "It's clear the bow in judo is simply a respectful act, like a handshake in wrestling."

Mark Fleming, a lawyer for the Akiyamas, and John Holm, their stepfather and operator of the U.S. Judo Training Center in Renton, said they might appeal to the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals.

"We have a half-dozen Muslim kids who want to compete in the state championships coming up Jan. 26, and they can't compete because of their religious beliefs," Holm said.

His wife, Mariko, a Buddhist, considers the bowing a Shinto ritual that her children should not be forced to observe.

Leilani Akiyama, who has won 15 national judo championships, and her brother also are varsity wrestlers at Newport High School in Bellevue.

Leilani has bowed twice since 1997, at competitions in Japan and Venezuela. Holm said Thursday he didn't know whether his stepchildren would begin bowing in U.S. events or stop competing.

"They'll have to make that decision themselves," he said.

He added that he didn't immediately tell them about the ruling for fear it might affect their performance in a wrestling meet Thursday night.

MarkF
15th January 2002, 10:18
Choices like this one are made every day. If the religion truly is in danger for "idol worship" what is it most people do in their own which is really so different than this?

Also, I don't really know much about Shinto, but is it really a religion? It may be a way of life for many, but then so was judo meant to be...to a point.

It also seems that the stepfather is now having second thoughts and is leaving it up to the kids. The older one said he would never do so no matter what the outcome, but considering everything the girl in particular would be *throwing* away because of this ruling makes it hard to believe.

But many great people were prohibited because of religious beliefs. Two names which come to mind are Sandy Koufax and Muhammad Ali.

In both cases, they made sacrifices to do what they knew how to do and made a living doing it. I don't remember Koufax wearing a yarmulke on the field (though it should be noted any kind of head cover meets the requirements in Koufax's case) nor Muhammad Ali bringing a prayer rug into the ring. The church, temple, or mosk or is in the heart, not on the head or on the ground.

Mark

CuttingProperly
11th August 2007, 23:48
Also, I don't really know much about Shinto, but is it really a religion? It may be a way of life for many, but then so was judo meant to be...to a point.

Then you really shouldn't be talking.

Shinto is a general term for the worship of local/native folk gods of Japan. Much like "Greek pagan" is a loose term for the worship of local/native folk gods of Greek traditions. Buddhism has a much closer claim to being a way of life, but even that is still a religion.

I don't want to come off as arrogant or rude but this "way of life, not religion" is thrown around so easily - especially when it comes to religions from cultures that Americans and Europeans aren't familiar with.

Christianity for many is also a way of life but I bet if a dojo required you to kneel before a cross and maybe recite a few Bible verses (even the most generic ones) people would have picket lines outside of it.

Joseph Svinth
12th August 2007, 05:20
So, if one needs to have knowledge to post here, then what (save arrogance and rudeness) prompted your post?

CuttingProperly
12th August 2007, 06:44
So, if one needs to have knowledge to post here, then what (save arrogance and rudeness) prompted your post?

I believe I said what prompted my post:

Also, I don't really know much about Shinto, but is it really a religion? It may be a way of life for many, but then so was judo meant to be...to a point.

He is making a claim, and not only did he have nothing to defend that claim, he even acknowledges he has nothing to defend that claim, yet he still chooses to use it as an arguing point. If I was rude and arrogant, I at least had experience and facts to back it up - the worst form of arrogance is making claims and arguing with neither knowledge nor experience.

I don't want to start any flame war here so I will leave it at that. I do not regret my previous post as I did not make any unfounded claim or statement.

P.S. I didn't say one needed knowledge to post. One needs knowledge to claim. If he had restated his post as "I'm not sure, but isn't Shinto a way of life and not a religion?" it would be no problem. Now, it initially appears that he was asking "...is it really a religion?" but then he immediately answers his own question by saying that it is a way of life in the way that judo is a way of life.

DustyMars
12th August 2007, 10:10
Choices like this one are made every day. If the religion truly is in danger for "idol worship" what is it most people do in their own which is really so different than this?

Also, I don't really know much about Shinto, but is it really a religion? It may be a way of life for many, but then so was judo meant to be...to a point.

It also seems that the stepfather is now having second thoughts and is leaving it up to the kids. The older one said he would never do so no matter what the outcome, but considering everything the girl in particular would be *throwing* away because of this ruling makes it hard to believe.

But many great people were prohibited because of religious beliefs. Two names which come to mind are Sandy Koufax and Muhammad Ali.

In both cases, they made sacrifices to do what they knew how to do and made a living doing it. I don't remember Koufax wearing a yarmulke on the field (though it should be noted any kind of head cover meets the requirements in Koufax's case) nor Muhammad Ali bringing a prayer rug into the ring. The church, temple, or mosk or is in the heart, not on the head or on the ground.

Mark
Mark, Judo is a way of life. Even thugh I no longer go to the dojo each morning when I wake up all the pain and stiffness from Judo reminds me of all the years I lived Judo. :) I studied a little Shinto whilst living on Okinawa because a family next door to my crash pad was always chanting and carrying on , so I asked what was going on and got several l weeks of lessons. It must be a religion becasue they toss good money into a big pot at the alter :rolleyes:

MikeWilliams
12th August 2007, 15:14
Looks like the judge saw common sense - good!

It makes you wonder if these kids visited countries where bowing was part of day-to-day ettiquette, whether they would still refuse?

As far as I can tell, bowing in judo derives from this daily courtesy anyway - not from any shinto (or other religious) ritual. The kids are varsity wrestlers - presumably the kids are willing to shake hands at the begiining of a match. What's the difference?

Frankly I'm surprised they've got as far as they have. I'm no great stickler for etiquette, but I wouldn't have even let them start training. Apart from anything else, they'd never have passed their first grading.

As for the muslim thing - I have trained with a number of orthodox/devout muslims over the years, and none of them has ever had a problem with dojo etiquette. The same applies to the hindu, jewish, christian, buddhist and every other player I have met in multicultural London. I can only conclude that this controversy is a weird American anomaly prompted by easy access to spurious lawsuits.

CuttingProperly - nice going dude. :rolleyes: Welcome to the judo forum. Perhaps you'd like to give a rundown of your knowledge and experience? I'd hate for you to come off as arrogant or rude.

EDIT: Jeff, thanks for the post - your last sentence gave me a chuckle. :)

CuttingProperly
12th August 2007, 18:55
As for the muslim thing - I have trained with a number of orthodox/devout muslims over the years, and none of them has ever had a problem with dojo etiquette. The same applies to the hindu, jewish, christian, buddhist and every other player I have met in multicultural London. I can only conclude that this controversy is a weird American anomaly prompted by easy access to spurious lawsuits.

What borough are you in?

See the things is, we have to keep in mind that despite how absolute we want a technique in any martial art to be, the cultural and semi-religious aspects will still be viewed with something we can all relate to - relativity.

Of course there is probably no "intention" of forcing you to worship something and yes, I know it's like shaking hands or even waving hi in many places. Most do not have a problem with the simple "leaning in" bow either. But you have to understand, getting on your knees as bowing down sends a strong message to many.

It does state in the Torah, the Bible, and the Qu'ran that bowing down on your knees should only be done to God (in the case of the Qu'ran, to Mecca which is symbolically bowing down to God). And it does not say that suggestively, it states it clearly.

I was going to post some things that maybe you're more familiar with (some laws that Jews and Christians commonly break) but the thing is that for not only Muslims, but for Christians and Jews and most other religions, bowing down on your knees is the deepest act of worship possible. Some choose to compromise, and that is their decision - I do not condemn or judge them because I believe in free will which I believe God gave us. But please respect the fact that not everyone will compromise their faith for the sake of martial arts or sports.

My experience? I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and since my parents basically abandoned me, for two years I lived with a Korean Christian family, and later in high school I lived with a Egyptian Muslim family. From both those experiences, I can tell you that Koreans do not always agree, that Christians do not always agree, that Arabs do not always agree, and that Muslims do not always agree on issues. As humans we will always have different points of view.

I am not arguing against the judges decision. I believe that in all legal fairness he made the right call. But when you start judging someone for not bowing, that is just as wrong as judging someone for bowing, you get what I mean?

As far as bowing down on your knees/prostration, the history of the act means literally "I am putting my life in your hands" since it is an act of allowing temporary vulnerability to getting your head chopped off, and also an act of complete humility. Some people may even have non-religious objections to it, and I do not judge what they decide either way (you can tell I'm not a sensei can't you? :D )

P.S. I still stand by my first post in this thread, you cannot make random assumptions based on nothing but a guess that Shinto is or is not a religion. Shinto is to Japan what Hinduism is to India or paganism was to ancient Greece, a loose term for the many different ways of worshiping many different gods.

MikeWilliams
12th August 2007, 19:50
not only Muslims, but for Christians and Jews and most other religions, bowing down on your knees is the deepest act of worship possible.

That's the thing 'though - it's not an act of worship. Even a shintoist (if that's where it originated) is not worshipping their sensei or opposing player or even the picture of the founder (whever that might be).


But please respect the fact that not everyone will compromise their faith for the sake of martial arts or sports.

That's fine. I agree. If they are unwilling to compromise then they don't have to train (or, having now read the other thread and your contributions), they can do as your dojo did and create an environment in which they can train in a manner which fits in with their beliefs - and realise and accept that in so doing they might be closing doors on e.g. international competition.

I don't have an issue with people having strongly held beliefs. I have an issue with people wanting their cake and eat it, and bringing spurious lawsuits.

I do understand that some people take issue with the whole concept of bowing. I recently decided not to train at a particular BJJ club because the etiquette was a bit over-the-top formal for my tastes. But I'm not going to sue them for it!

[Napoleon Dynamite] Bow to your sensei! [/Napoleon Dynamite] :D

CuttingProperly
12th August 2007, 21:25
That's fine. I agree. If they are unwilling to compromise then they don't have to train (or, having now read the other thread and your contributions), they can do as your dojo did and create an environment in which they can train in a manner which fits in with their beliefs - and realise and accept that in so doing they might be closing doors on e.g. international competition.

Cool, then we have an understanding - live and let live. (P.S. My dojo doesn't believe in competition since it's "koryu-ish" even if it's gendai so it's all good)

Now that that issue's down, what borough are you in? I'm just wondering because my sensei used to live and teach in London for a while and he has all kinds of crazy experiences about how he had to use his techniques in real life. I also have a Jamaican friend who lives in Hackney and he has some crazy stories, too.

Aaron T
12th August 2007, 23:48
It is really as simple as this, use common sense and don't make mountains out of mole-hills. This type of thing should be handled on an individual level.

As to bowing to the mat, whatever, historically there are shinto connections, figure it out for yourself and what works within your club.

As to bowing to another person, it is the same as a handshake, get over it. We have folks of all religious backgrounds in our club, Muslim, Jewish, Eastern Orthodox, Buddhist, etc etc. It is not an issue unless it is made into one, or allowed to become one.

I worked out in the noted club one time. There are much bigger issues at play here, which I will not go into in a public setting. Suffice it to say I practiced there only once.

Finally, in the land of freedom, let folks find what works for them and don't get your thong in a twist over little things and other people's choices.

Practice more talk less,
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

MikeWilliams
13th August 2007, 08:21
I also have a Jamaican friend who lives in Hackney and he has some crazy stories, too.

LOL, I can imagine! :)

London's pretty safe for a big city provided you keep your wits about you. Obviously some areas (Hackney, Peckham, Harlesden) need significantly more wit-keeping than others...

CEB
13th August 2007, 20:02
Dang I didn't even remember posing this AP story.

MikeWilliams
13th August 2007, 21:37
LOL, I thought it was recent! :rolleyes:

cxt
13th August 2007, 23:04
I have to confess that I really don't see the problem here.

If what your being asked to do comprimises ones beliefs--relgious or otherwise--then simply don't do it.

If a given person feels that its that important to stay absolutly true to ones beliefs--then that would seem to be your answer.
"You" have stated what is important and to what extent--so be it.

It would seem to be rather cut and dry--even did a rather popular movie back in the 1980's about an athlete that refused to race on the Sabbeth.
Then as now--that would seem an individual choice that one has the full authority to invoke.

If its that important then it would seem a simple choice.

Chris McLean
14th August 2007, 00:19
It is interesting to me that no wars have ever been faught in the name of Buddhism, Zen, or Shintoism. Yet some people are so offended by them.
I really get that they are offended, is that going to change me, no; am I going to get upset that they are, no?

CuttingProperly
14th August 2007, 01:32
It is interesting to me that no wars have ever been faught in the name of Buddhism, Zen, or Shintoism. Yet some people are so offended by them.
I really get that they are offended, is that going to change me, no; am I going to get upset that they are, no?

I think it's important to emphasize that this wasn't a simple, linear two-sided conflict. It wasn't a "You're either with the Muslims or with the Judo" issue.

Again, I believe that the judge made the right legal call. I just wanted to emphasize that regardless of this case though, you should understand their point of view. And that Buddhism, Zen, and Shintoism are all religions.

No one said anything about which religion is good or bad or even offensive. There have in fact been wars in the name of Shintoism and small acts of violence in the name of Buddhism. Zen by the way is a school of Buddhism. But the fact that there were or were not conflicts in their name has absolutely nothing to do with the issue here. You say it is interesting but in the issue at hand, it is, in fact, irrelevant. The issue wasn't even about being offended by a religion, it was about enforcing a conflicting cultural custom as a prerequisite for competition. And again, I do believe the judge made the right decision.

My worst pet peeve is when people either deviate a conflict into "Us versus them" or turn it into a simple "one side is right and one side is wrong" thing. This issue in fact has nothing to do with religion vs. religion, it is about organizational standards and individual choices, and it was already settled.

Chris McLean
14th August 2007, 01:42
If you say so!

jdostie
14th August 2007, 23:40
It is interesting to me that no wars have ever been faught in the name of Buddhism, Zen, or Shintoism. Yet some people are so offended by them.
I really get that they are offended, is that going to change me, no; am I going to get upset that they are, no?

It may not be a sense of "I am offended" by bowing in Judo, but "I cannot bow down to the 'idol' in worship as they do in Judo because of my religious convictions; therefore I am adversely affected because of my religion." In effect, the argument is that [they - muslims, or christians for that matter that don't believe that they can bow] are the one's being discriminated against, and because religion is a protected class . . .

I am no attorney, but in employment law, one would have to show that bowing, then is a bona-fide occupational qualification. For example to be a Baptist minister, one must be a Baptist, it's a bona-fide occupational qualification. To hold certain positions in a women's prison facility for example might require a woman - it's a bona-fide occupational qualification.

For a martial art, then, and this may not be the correct point of law - I admit, but it is one consideration - is it a bona-fide prerequisite to participation to bow. I don't know if that's effectively what the judge decided, or if he basically decided that it's not bowing for worship (as I reason, and why I have no problem with it), and thus it is simply a rule of conduct that has nothing to do with religion.

Anyway, back to my original point, if I had determined that I could not bow in good conscience, it would not have been because I was offended by someone else bowing. I MIGHT [I wouldn't have, that's a hypothetical] have been offended by not being allowed to participate because of it, but that's not the same thing.

Chris McLean
15th August 2007, 01:05
It is interesting to me that no wars have ever been faught in the name of Buddhism, Zen, or Shintoism. Yet some people are so offended by them.
I really get that they are offended, is that going to change me, no; am I going to get upset that they are, no?

If there has been a "War" faught in the name of Buddhism let me know.

I will make one amendmenment.
"I really get that they dont want to bow."

So what! I will bow to them! Bowing!
It means nothing! LMAO

kenkyusha
15th August 2007, 16:37
If there has been a "War" faught in the name of Buddhism let me know.
More a police action against adherants of the indigenous animistic/mystical/magical 'religion' of Tibet, Bon. While some of the practices of the Bonpo were subsumed into Tibetan esoteric Buddhism, Bon was effectively killed-off in a concerted campaign to eliminate it. HTH.

Be well,
Jigme

CuttingProperly
15th August 2007, 20:47
It is interesting to me that no wars have ever been faught in the name of Buddhism, Zen, or Shintoism. Yet some people are so offended by them.
I really get that they are offended, is that going to change me, no; am I going to get upset that they are, no?


If there has been a "War" faught in the name of Buddhism let me know.

I'm pretty sure dumbing down conversations and changing the subject when a difficult subject is brought up is also pretty un-Buddhist and un-Zen, but hey, here you go.



So what! I will bow to them! Bowing!
It means nothing! LMAO

Wow. Now that is offensive. You should say what you feel next time you bow to sensei - "This means nothing to me." I'm sure you'll be kicked out faster and deranked more dishonorably than any of the Muslims in the story.

cxt
15th August 2007, 21:08
Cutting

I still don't really get what the fuss is all about.

One does not have some sort or "right" to have a given hobby--its a voluntary activity at best.

If the expectations/demands etc of the hobby in question violate somebodies faith/relgion/philosophical outlook in some substantive manner that they feel is unaccpetable--then it would seem to me that is their choice to make, and if its important enough to matter that much--then it would seem that IS the answer.

If the argument is "don't judge" well, ok, I'm at least partially with you on that.

In that vein I would politly suggest that you have no idea what somebodies grasp of given relgion might be--so it might be more in keeping with that POV, if you reserve judgement until/unless you find out that for sure that their information is lacking.

trevorg
15th August 2007, 21:31
This issue is also being discussed on the karate thread

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449274#post449274

Osu
Trevor

ichibyoshi
18th August 2007, 11:02
I didn't think anyone bothered to bow in judo anymore anyway...

(Spring is the mischief in me, as the poet said)

b

Parmenion
20th August 2007, 08:43
wars involving buddhism?

A bloke called Oda Nobunaga had a few scuffles as memory recalls.

Timothy Leatt-Hayter

Chris McLean
20th August 2007, 14:56
wars involving buddhism?

A bloke called Oda Nobunaga had a few scuffles as memory recalls.

Timothy Leatt-Hayter

Wickpedia gives a historical account of this man and mentions him killing Buddhist who did not obey him but his warring ways where not in the name of Buddha. Many wars in the west and the Middle East have been waged in the name of God. There is an interesting documentary starting this Tuesday on CNN called Gods Warriors. It is a three part series, Christian Warriors, Jewish Warriors, and Muslim Warriors. There is no section on Buddhist warriors. The other interesting fact of this thread is when I practiced true detachment from “what is” and true acceptance of “what is” I was verbally attacked.
I would just like to invite those who where offended by my posture to really ask your self, why?

Joseph Svinth
21st August 2007, 02:07
Does Altan Khan, the Mongol who established the Dalai Lama and almost destroyed the Ming Dynasty, count as a Buddhist warrior? The spread of Tibetan Buddhism into China and Mongolia dates to his era. The Buddhists were generally okay with major religions, but they seem to have been mean toward shamanists. There are better sources, but since we're using Wikipedia, let's be consistent, and use it again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Mongolia . There are also reports that the Mongol Great Khans could be a little hard on Han Chinese, but I'm sure that is simply propaganda.

Another group of martial Buddhists are the Thais. The Buddhist Thais fought wars against the Mongols and the Burmese during the 16th century, the Muslims in the 17th century. In the early 19th century, Siam invaded Kampuchea "to save Buddhism" from the Burmese.

Anyway, while Buddhism is not as fire-and-brimstone as are, for example, Christianity and Islam, I'll argue that its practitioners have had their moments, too.

There is also the ongoing civil war in Sri Lanka, where the Buddhist majority is doing a pretty good job of shooting up the Hindu Tamil minority.

trevorg
21st August 2007, 13:50
Got this from a google, any help ?

http://www.geocities.com/azuchiwind/monks2.htm

Osu
Trevor

Chris McLean
21st August 2007, 14:24
I agree there have been and are some great warriors who are Buddhist. That is the origin of what we practice today it would be absurd to think there have been no warriors who are Buddhist. There is a big difference in war for your personal gain as opposed to simply forcing your beliefs on your neighbors. There is still a danger in China taking what they need today but the intention is different than the suicide bombers of Muslim sects or the zealot crusaders of Christianity who bomb abortion clinics.
The worst the Buddhist zealots do is burn themselfs. LMAO

Jeremyf
22nd August 2007, 08:56
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honganji

"army of warrior monks"

MarkF
22nd August 2007, 15:51
This thread went way off course when Mr. Jackson decided to open it to comment on MY 5-year old reply to the orginal topic. If you recall, Mr. Jackson , the topic wasn't a thread on shinto or anything close to it, it was posted five years ago to update even older threads on the subject of bowing.

This thread is now closed. If you want to discuss the subject of "bowing or not to bow in the judo dojo, then start a new thread. If you want to continue the discussion of religion in Japan, there is a more suitable forum for that.

Mark