Is it the Message or the Paper it's Writ on?

[Mike Collins]

I may just be getting old and cranky. But please register your thoughts on the idea that it seems to me that there is a tendancy on bulletin boards like this one (though far less here), for thoughts to be "nit-picked", and for very small inaccuracies to virtually never go unchallenged.

Maybe I am thinking of the reason or point of such bulletin boards wrongly. I had been thinking that these were more about exchanging ideas and concepts than archiving minutae and factoids relative to Aikido.

Aikido can be learned in the dojo. In my opinion, only in the dojo (yeah, I know-- the world is my dojo, bla bla bla... I'm talking here about the physical art). Sites such as this were, I thought, more akin to going out for a beer with the guys and your teacher (especially nice for old farts like me, who don't drink thanks to a misspent youth), and exchanging concepts and letting the teacher impart pearls among we swine.

Seems every point has a counterpoint and each fact is "tweaked" at least slightly, on some of these BB's. I wouldn't hang out with people who held a conversation that way.

I'm curious if I'm the only one put off by this, and if so, maybe I should get off my fat butt, push away from the computer, and go to the dojo, train, and ask some folks to go get a bite after???

HMMMM....... Might not be a bad idea at that!

[Ron Tisdale]

I understand your postion. Its nice sometimes just to chat and exchange ideas without having to be absolutely correct in every aspect of fact.

But one reason I read this board and the Aikido Journal board is because there are people who contribute to these boards who are researchers and scholars. People who can give accurate, well researched thoughts and opinions. I do value that; highly. Perhaps people should distinquish in their posts which side of the spectrum they are leaning to in a given post. Casual conversation, or research. Then you could ignore things that you don't care for more easily. And perhaps the flaming would go down.

There is also the issue of some general misconceptions about aikido or specific styles...someone might post something that is simply not accurate (as happened recently in this forum when discussing kata).

Are you suggesting that we not correct such a thing?

Ron Tisdale

[Jeff Hamacher]

i agree in many ways with what Ron's posted. the "internet revolution" has brought with it an unprecedented opportunity to communicate with people from all over the world. the difficulty is that, by never having to face one's audience, the tendency to forget simple principles of etiquette seems very strong, indeed. people jumping down each other's throats is, just as you say Mike, a real drag; it absolutely detracts from the experience and wastes a lot of bandwidth which should be reserved for the exchange of valuable information.

on the other hand, i see nothing wrong with nitpicking in and of itself. we do learn from each other by sharing what we know, and disagreements can become very enjoyable sources of learning and discovery. again, i think it has to do with the approach: if someone's really snotty about the way in which they nitpick it does nothing to encourage "electronic cameraderie".

one other thing that i've noticed is that i've grown a slightly thicker skin since starting my BBS adventures. i've come to expect that someone will happen along to poke holes in something that i've posted, but this isn't a bad thing. even in a conversation people behave in the same way, but the difference is in the medium. when you speak you can cover a great number of bases and transmit a greater amount of information in much less time than it takes to form a composition and type it out. it sometimes takes the wind out of my sails when someone responds negatively to a post of mine, something that perhaps i spent a bit of time putting together. i wouldn't have made the same kind of time commitment to a spoken statement, so it wouldn't trouble me as much to have a listener contradict it. i'd also have more opportunities to elaborate on my statement using critical feedback i get from my listeners.

sometimes people are rude. sometimes the medium is too cumbersome to express ideas quickly and accurately. in spite of these things, i would have never met so many interesting and knowledgeable people if i hadn't taken the risk and jumped right in. maybe the best approach is to try to be "kinder, gentler" BBS members so that others might follow the example.

[Gil Gillespie]

Mike, I feel your pain.

I share your perspective on the state of e-budo and also what another poster contributed as to the silence of our heavy hitters. I think the two are connected. We hear a lot less from those we need to listen to and interact with and a lot more from those not yet quite so worthy.

In the old days B.C. a valid generous budoka (that would be John Lindsey) established this board for serious budo dialog (OK he set up "budo fun" so we wouldn't have to always be so serious). The website at that time offered serious budoka a forum worldwide within which to keep in touch and/ or establish communication. The members were numbered in the dozens, and then later, wow, the hundreds.

Now theres what? over 4000 of us. You're much less liable to be interacting with a godan of 30 years experience than a gokyu of 3 months experience. And the general quality of posts reflects that. There's a lot more to sift through. Real treasures emerge, but not casually and not often. Our heavy hitters have retired to lurking among the bushes. And why all the nitpicking? It's a microcosm of a dojo where the sensei is unavailable and class becomes rudderless bickering among mudansha.

Sort of.

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Gil Gillespie

And why all the nitpicking? It's a microcosm of a dojo where the sensei is unavailable and class becomes rudderless bickering among mudansha.

Sort of.

:nono:

e-budo is not a dojo. Here is "after class" - time to communicate, exchanging ideas, fight, make peace, drink a beer, doubt about words or actions our teachers .... - what, real life :saw:

Otherwise U can't growing :p

We have enough in a dojo, only listen and bowing, listen and bowing, listen and bowing, listen and bowing, listen and bowing....

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by szczepan
:nono:
e-budo is not a dojo. Here is "after class" - time to communicate, exchanging ideas, fight, make peace, drink a beer, doubt about words or actions our teachers .... - what, real life :saw:

YAMANTAKA : What??? So a dojo is not a mirror of real life? Is it just a place for mindless practice???


Originally posted by szczepan
We have enough in a dojo, only listen and bowing, listen and bowing, listen and bowing, listen and bowing, listen and bowing....

YAMANTAKA : What kind of a dojo are you talking about, o Unpronounceable One? Yours? (I can't believe that since you're a Master of Practical Aikido...:rolleyes: )
Just listening and bowing, listening and bowing, listening and bowing...What, no practice at all????
Astounded...:eek:

[MarkF]

Mike,
If your anywhere near my age or (God help me) Yamantaka's, it is crankiness.:eek:

If you don't mind the input of a broken up, old judo player, I think all three happen here. Lately, I think the discussions have been repeated so often that some just do not post as much as they used to.

After three, four, five times on the same subject, yes, the little tiny innacuracies (though I've learned or relearned much from the Internet regarding the subject in the past three years) do (nit) pick at you. I get tired of it as well.

I also learned something about posting (please ignore the post numbers, I have cut way down). If you wait long enough, someone usually answers your question, or posts what you want to say, anyway, so probably patience is the best policy. Ignoring this is what brings up the nitpicks over and over again, and everyone knows one can search the site for an answer before you ask or state or answer.

And until a certain person brought probably the best search engine for this subject (or any other) to the top, we would all be doing each other's searches. Even other search engines go to Google when the info isn't there.

So that's my opinion and I may or may not stick to it.;)

Mark