PDA

View Full Version : Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai



Jyri
18th October 2000, 12:58
Amatsu sensei's viewpoint about Daito ryu is a bit different. Here is link to the his homepage:
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/

It doesn't contain much stuff yet, but it is still worth of visiting.


Amatsu sensei has also written an article about Hisa Takuma and Daito-ryu. It is available in our (Takumakai,Finland) home page:
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

I hope you find these links interesting.

Jyri Lamminmaki
Daito-ryu Takumakai, Finland

Nathan Scott
8th November 2000, 00:59
[Post deleted by user]

CKohalyk
8th November 2000, 03:33
Mr. Scott,


>The idea of using the legs to pin the opponent is very >logical, though most of these pins seem to be used in >Jujutsu as opposed to the Aikijujutsu (is this the case?)

I believe Amatsu-sensei is referring to striking here. He always says that since the legs are many times stronger than the arms, don't bother using arms for atemi. Use a joint-lock to throw the enemy down, then strike with the legs.

But Jyrki-san knows more about this than I do.

CK

MarkF
8th November 2000, 13:20
OK, Nathan, you just gotta prove your point using what is not true necessarily of judo, don't ya?:)

Transition in judo is not 1,2,3, but maintaing a lock on the opponent is a tried and true manner of control, and it ain't no secret, either! While rule of shiai or randori say one should not "wrestle" one to the mat, tori can take a skeletal lock, using atemiwaza to unbalance the opponent, taking him down with the appropriate nage, maintaining control, is tested and true, even with a "basic judo hip throw."

I won't mention the word, but sometimes it is just there and while uke may feel it, tori won't even realize just what it was that he used to take down his uke.

Of course, this is just the omote of judo. You won't know the ura for at least three decades, if that. It takes a firm commitmant to judo, just to open the door. If you are there after this, then you may understand this, and even then you may not. Hehehe.

Next lesson, we will visit the most ancient of judo kata, ko shiki no kata, but remember to bring your armor.:up:

Mark

Nathan Scott
8th November 2000, 18:11
[Post deleted by user]

Sheridan
8th November 2000, 18:38
Amatsu-sensei might have been speaking of ura-kata himself in this case? (Not sure.)

Dan Harden
9th November 2000, 01:44
1. Do not just throw the enemy. Throw him in order to attack his joints. Daito ryu's main objective is to attack the joints.

2. Use your legs. Legs are stronger than arms.

3. Daitoryu has no Atemi (striking). When it looks like striking it is a trick for attacking joints.
***********************************

Gentlemen

You are going to have a difficult time fleshing this out.

First:
To say "Daito ryu's main objective is this"
OR "Daito ryu is this or that" are very definitve statements aren't they?
Personally When I hear such things, I ask myself "This gentleman's statement is based on which Daito *RYU*?
Do you suppose the Daito kan teaches the same techniques as the the takumakai? Roppokai? etc. Do you think the manner in which they express Aiki are all the same?
Secondly:
These statements are not very detailed. I could (for example) make an argument that his statement regarding the legs may have nothing at all to do with "Striking with the legs", as postulated here.
Positional placement of the legs, in many jujutsu arts will (in a technical sense) do many things, with the use of the legs to pin the opponent when he is *down* (mentioned as well) being only ONE part of the use of the legs. In deeper arts they also have subtle uses to pin an opponent in place while he is standing up, or in dropping him. Moreover, use of the legs to "effect various responses" in someones joints is a lengthy discussion in and of itself. Any discussion of the use of the legs is pointless without a rather detailed discussions of entering methodology, vectoring, use of placement of center, upper body and well.....everything else. "Trying to brace the roots, when the branches are freely swaying" is a pointless exercise.
Further, You could talk till you were blue in the face. TKD people, Judoka, Bujinkan, Aikido, Yanagi ryu and all manner of everyone else could say "AHH! Yes! yes! I get it. We do it too."
Then you watch them
They are NOT doing the same movement, or effecting the same principles....

AND that is just ONE sentence. The other two statements are a week's worth of discussions. Yet very little, if anything will be gained discussing it. The people who really know, won't discuss it anyway.

regards
Dan

[Edited by Dan Harden on 11-09-2000 at 07:08 AM]

Brently Keen
10th November 2000, 06:37
I agree with Dan.

In Daito-ryu (at least in the Roppokai branch) we do have many different ways of striking/attacking the enemy. Unless Amatsu-san was purposely being vague or misleading though (which is possible), our concepts and interpretations of what constitutes atemi and striking may be quite different.

One could actually observe Roppokai practice for a long time and hardly (if ever) see conventional atemi or striking techniques. And therefore come to the conclusion that atemi are not included or practiced by our group. However, as is often the case in Daito-ryu the truth is hidden beneath the surface. It's intentionally not obvious, so you can't even see it.

First it depends on how you define "atemi", and what constitutes atemi. Then it also depends on how and in what context one uses atemi.

Ueshiba said that aikido was 90% atemi. What does that mean to most people? What did HE actually mean when he said that? What was he talking about?

Lot's of people who practice aikido actually reject this whole idea. Others use this statement to validate the addition of striking techniques from other arts into their aikido - usually in order to be more "practical", "street effective", or combative. Many people think this is the difference between aikijujutsu and aikido, but that's just another myth. IMO neither are correct, but that's aikido. From my perspective within Daito-ryu, the conventional conception of "atemi" as "punching" is not only dangerous, it's almost laughable, or as my seniors used to say "nonsense".

Amatsu-san is correct when he says we don't have atemi in Daito-ryu (but I would add "conventional" atemi). Sokaku Takeda said, "...we will not strike, we will not kick, we will not kill." But what did he mean by that? That we do not have striking, kicking or killing techniques? What about the famous "ichigeki hissatsu" techniques? One of the first things you have to learn when you study aiki is that reality and appearances are two different things, in fact things are hardly ever what they seem to be. A clue is found in what Sokaku said in his next few sentences, "It is completely for self-defense..."

Some of you are probably wondering why I'm contradicting myself here, because in other posts I've talked about the combative or "jutsu" aspect of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as a classical system (koryu bujutsu) as opposed to the more self-defense oriented modern (gendai budo) styles of jujutsu/aikido. I'm not, it's merely a paradox that only seems contradictory until it's seen in the right light and/or in it's proper context. Sorry, but even as a member of perhaps the most open, progressive branch of Daito-ryu, I don't think a public forum such as this is the proper context in which to divulge those "secrets".

I suppose I've said enough already. Good post Dan.

Brently

Earl Hartman
10th November 2000, 17:50
Just a quick note about atemi. The word is composed of two Chinese characters: "ateru" (usually meaning to strike) and "mi" (body). Thus, "striking body".

It should come as no surprise to anyone that this could mean different things to different people. In Nagao Ryu, for instance, atemi can be either a quick strike with the hand or foot, or it can involve grasping/attacking "kyusho" (vital points) as a component of unbalancing and throwing, or as a finishing technique. There is also subtle atemi involved in how the attacker's hand/arm is grasped. None of these things are as obvious as a "karate style" punch or kick, so as Brently says, they are not out in the open. I am not that familiar with aikido or aikujujutsu, but I have had aikido practitioners demonstrate certain wristlocks such as sankyo on me. The way in which the wrist is manipulated involves atemi, that is, attacks to certain anatomical weak points or nerve bundles in the hand and wrist, which can render the recipeient helpless. These are contained within the technique, which looks like nothing more than a wrist twist to the uninitiated, and so are not visible as discrete strikes. Thus, while they don't look like what people think atemi might look like, they are atemi nonetheless. In many Nagao Ryu kata, success or failure depends entirely upon whether the initial atemi attack to the target kyusho is successful or not.

On one of the Daito Ryu websites (I can't remember which one) there is a picture of Tokimune Sensei. The thing about the picture that was most immediately noticable to me was the obvious strength of Tokimune Sensei's hands and wrists. The reason I noticed this is because my Nagao Ryu sensei had incredibly strong wrists and fingers; for such a small man his grasping strength was phenomenal. Once he laid his hands on a kyusho, it was all over. To an onlooker, it would appear that he was only touching a person; in reality a kyusho was being attacked. This is very subtle, and without knowing what to look for, it can't be seen, as Brently says. This is not to say that Daito Ryu and Nagao Ryu atemi techniques are the same, so we don't need to go over that again. I only offer the Nagao Ryu example as another part of the mix.

Earl


[Edited by Earl Hartman on 11-10-2000 at 12:19 PM]

richie
23rd March 2001, 17:36
Greetings,

I am looking in my new Nelson guide to kanji and need the
number for the appropriate kanji for soden. Any help would be
great. Also there is a term "nebari". I found it in a kenjutsu book.
Any ideas on its meaning. Thank you.



R. Rivera

Nathan Scott
23rd March 2001, 21:06
[Post deleted by user]

George Kohler
24th March 2001, 04:55
could it be:
http://enterprise.dsi.crc.ca/cgi-bin/j-e/fg=r/inline/jap/%c1%ea?TRhttp://enterprise.dsi.crc.ca/cgi-bin/j-e/fg=r/inline/jap/%c5%c1?TR

This means inheritance or handed down

Nathan Scott
9th May 2001, 21:53
[Post deleted by user]

George Kohler
9th May 2001, 22:27
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
I suspect the kanji for "den" may be an older version of the kanji you have presented. Can't say for sure though without my dictionaries. :(

HTH,

Hi Nathan,

Yes, it is an older version of the one that I posted.

Nathan Scott
1st January 2002, 00:49
[Post deleted by user]

Ron Tisdale
4th January 2002, 16:20
I believe Jose Garrido teaches in NYC. He posts occationally on the aikido journal web site. I can't vouche for his technique, but his information always seems good. I believe he participates in Kondo Sensei's seminars as well.

Ron Tisdale

Arman
7th January 2002, 18:30
The point on atemi is fairly vague. In mainline Daito-ryu, however, atemi is clearly an element of many kata (to the ribs, to the face, and to various other points on the body). Some are hard strikes, others are distracting strikes.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Dan Harden
7th January 2002, 20:21
Atemi

A fundamental Ideal of "good" jujutsu is to take an opponents balance at the moment of contact-and to not release, fade, evade, or otherwise "lose it" from there. As such, ate waza-is an adjunct to building and or maintaining, kuzushi. For that reason, atemi is more than a simple striking of a body part. Captured correctly, your forward moving hip or shoulder movement can cause what feels like a punch to their center or shoulders. While it "feels" mysterious, it is entirely structural and sound in principle. Using your own hips or Thorax to connect makes an "in-motion" atemi that is not fun to take and its use is in standing technique or to help smother on the ground is in Koryu jujutsu.

Nathan
I share your confusion about Hisa. In his interview in Stanley's book he clearly states that Takeda simply "showed up." page 110
When asked to clarify he restates it clearly that he had no idea Sokaku was coming or who he was! He describes the encounter with him as if he had no idea what he looked like, and other then hearing his name from Ueshiba Sensei he couldn't believe the "little old guy" would be able to do much.

As to his being dismissive of Ueshiba I wouldn't go that far.
He was clearly taken by the superior technique of Takeda (a re-occuring theme for all who met them both-even those who disliked Sokaku Sensei)
quote: page 118
__________________________________________

"Everyone had been absorbed in Ueshibas beautiful techniques; but right then we became completely facinated by the strong techniques of this old master...........everyone there immediately bowed low at sensei's feet and asked to become his student......no matter how many times Sokaku Sensei said he would teach me I couldn't believe it was true it was unbelievable!"

_____________________________________________


It is interesting to note Tokimune's observational opinion of Hisa's technique.

quote:
__________________________________
"But when it came to the details of technique, Ueshiba Sensei was better. Mr. Ueshiba studied with Sokaku for a much longer time."
__________________________________

There is a picture of Tokimune standing with Sokaku, Hisa, Tonedate (another Menkyo recipient, although I still count Kodo) at the Asahi newspaper. So it would appear that Tokimune was there to know.

At any rate, I think it is clear that Ueshiba's technique was superb, even though it was less than Takeda.



Nito ryu

You should ask, I think you will find they are not taught as sword techniques per se.



Undefeatable?

Our intrepid Mr. Yoshimura, may have "found the techniques to be very effective in a real setting." and he may have been quite the soldier but with all the "secret techniques of Daito ryu" at his disposal -he was most certainly "defeatable!"
I would call him lucky or blessed to have come home in one piece.

The "undefeatable statements" whether "as quoted" or not, really should not be repeated anymore in my opinion. It is patently ridiculous, particularly when placed in a war environment. I equate these statements to the Golden light, bullet dodging, light bulbs going off nonsense of some early Ueshiba followers. We should be embarassed to repeat them.

Daito ryu secret techniques make you undefeatable?
Please!

I know you do not ascribe to such philosophy-I make it as a generalized statement only.

I loved your quiet reserved comments about filming the techniques without approval behind closed doors (and backs) and the mentioning of them as being considered a valued resource today!

Done today, in the same way,
I wonder what everyone would say?

Then again I would love to see how many of these legends would fair in todays open environment.

Whats that??
What what?
Is that mist coming up around your feet Nathan?
On a quiet day, an ill wind is known to bring rummbling roarring sounds down around me...and many have been slain by the results!

Dan
"who can barely dodge snowballs
I'll leave the bullets to those who can "see" them coming.

Dan Harden
7th January 2002, 20:54
Complexity and Koryu methodology:

I think “seeing” the complexity of techniques in many arts is a frequent mistake in observation of what Kata try to convey. I can draw a corollary to TSKSR; many who see the long involved Kata think that they convey a series of techniques that are supposed to happen that way, and that there is a winner and loser.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
So, seeing Kata in a fashion that you perceive to be the way they are to used would lead to one opinion
Studying to use Kata and know their principles in a fashion where they work in a rapid response or force on force venue may lead to an alltogether different opinion.
Or maybe not.

My gosh you could write several pages on that one subject alone

Dan

Nathan Scott
8th January 2002, 01:21
[Post deleted by user]

Chris Li
8th January 2002, 03:00
Originally posted by Dan Harden
He was clearly taken by the superior technique of Takeda (a re-occuring theme for all who met them both-even those who disliked Sokaku Sensei)

Not Noriaki Inoue :) .



At any rate, I think it is clear that Ueshiba's technique was superb, even though it was less than Takeda.

I think that you also have to remember that people who were comparing them around, say, 1935 were comparing a person who had been training for 60 some years (Takeda) to someone who had been training for some 40 some years (Ueshiba). A twenty year difference is pretty big no matter who you're talking about! Certainly, if people compare me to my instructors I fall short. Whether the same thing can be said in twenty years after they are long gone is hard to say.

Trying to compare the two is a little like trying to figure out who would win a fight between Mike Tyson and Joe Louis (The Brown Bomber). While it's kind of fun, it's also more or less pointless, and, practically speaking, probably impossible.

By the way, my teacher is bigger then your teacher :) .

Best,

Chris

Dan Harden
8th January 2002, 04:03
I don't think the question of "who's teacher is better than whos" is part of the discussion. I do believe they both are deserving of acknowledgment for their efforts-and I said as much

Noriaki Inoue
I should have been more clear and stated that those who "trained" with both seemd to have acknowledged Takedas superior level of skill, even when they didn't like him. Why? Don't know. Don't particularly care either.
Noriaki didn't train with Sokaku, he refused. Thats why he's in "the other book" on Aikido. I agree with your example of "time in" when comparing the two -but more to the point- we will never know how it played out. Clearly they went in different directions and there was none to compare the two in later years.

Trying to figure out who was who, and being appreciative of Stanleys efforts to bring one of the "WHOS" into proper historical perspective is the nature of most of our discussions here. Sokaku was pretty much a non player to us all until Stanley brought him and DR to life here and even in Japan. The relationship between Takeda, Ueshiba and Hisa was complex and even comical at times it seems.

What if Ueshiba had brought DR into superior technique? Or Sagawa? Was Takeda truly the best there was? Or were they all equal but in different directions? Who cares..... It seems clear that the direction of the three is different anyway.
Where and how that plays into your mental picture of trying to establish who' teacher is better than who's is your business. In trying to sort it out and who was who, when, and where, and why, what became of the styles and schools, and why there are just so many inconsistencies in the stories is interesting to us-in fact several of us find it facinating.

I really don't care who could "beat up" whom. I find their relationship and the opinions of the players involved
to be the more facinating topic,

Thanks anyway

Dan

Nathan Scott
8th January 2002, 09:44
[Post deleted by user]

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 13:22
Um.... Nathan,

I'm not sure you can count the horse in the overall height and weight measurement...

Dan Harden
8th January 2002, 13:59
HAH!!

Ghost warrior!
I have that tape. and I remember that scene on the mountain pass. Obata looked great.

Remember the close up in the weapons shop.
when they guy apraising it holds up the sword Hoo wha!
what a beauty. A kobyashi work. I think he also made the Tachi that Obata used yes?
The flash backs, and the Japanese scenes were beautiful.
Him waking and sipping sake with the girl.
The warriors walking through the snow when they captured the girl.
Yoshi's attack from under the pine boughs in mid winter. What a riot of color and texture.
Obatas challenge in the snow (minus the silly spear twirling) had such wonderful backdrop, and so many wonderful angles and colors, it could have made mounted prints.
The rest of the movie, (minus the noodle shop guy when he calls him Mifune) was a disaster of cheesecake acting.
It was sad really, the director seemed to have a great sense for lighting and scene set up but the actors were horrible.
Well...... the guy in the lead was good. His rolling draw and cut from Iaigoshi in the hospital would have made any Iai guy proud.

I wonder how many Spotted Obata as the bodyguard/ doorman in the girls hotel in "Rising Sun"
or the one who delivered the tanto to the gangster at the farm house in "Black rain"
Hopefully some day he'll get talking parts.
Is he that quite in the dojo Nathan?

Dan

Cady Goldfield
8th January 2002, 15:27
Nathan,

Didn't Obata-san get to grunt a bit in "Ninja Turtles"? Doesn't that qualify as a speaking role?

Dan,

Did you check your e-mail this a.m.?

Nathan Scott
8th January 2002, 19:59
[Post deleted by user]

Jyri
18th January 2002, 14:51
Hi,

New interesting article available in our homepage!!

Memories of Hisa san - Written by Yutaka Amatsu (8 dan) of Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai

http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

The article is based on the Amatsu sensei's interview in the Japanese Aiki News (#129.) magazine. Amatsu sensei kindly rewrote the same story in English and gave us permission to publish it on the Fudoshin homepage. This is not exact translation of the Japanese article and we don't know how much it differs from the Japanese one.


Jyri Lamminmaki
Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai, Finland

Brian Griffin
20th January 2002, 18:28
My favorite quote from the article:

by Yutaka Amatsu (hiden 8-dan) of Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai

I prefer judo...

MarkF
22nd January 2002, 10:11
It seems that while he may have preferred judo, he preferred a teacher in something else. I don't know much about it, but generally, if people chose the teacher and not the art, there may have been more qualified teachers today.

That said, I agree with the remark concerning judo.

Mark

Nathan Scott
23rd January 2002, 20:21
[Post deleted by user]

Arman
4th April 2002, 23:56
I've always been curious about the Takumakai's style of shomenuchi. Anyone know why the uke's strikes in such kata as ippon dori, karaminage, etc. are back-hand strikes (the hand is brought back across the upper neck/face and the strike is executed like a a back-hand knife strike), rather than the typical over-head shomenuchi?

Thanks for any input.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Quintin
9th April 2002, 13:10
Dear Mr Lamminmaki, thank you for making us aware of Amatsu sensei`s article...Very interesting stuff...I was wondering how often the senior members of the Takumakai get to travel to Helsinki ??? Do some of the other members also come along.???? Do you have major verbal communication problems ???? Just a few small queries...Thanks again..Quintin

Nathan Scott
9th April 2002, 21:07
[Post deleted by user]

Dan Harden
9th April 2002, 21:32
"I prefer Judo"

Hey Mark
Be smart-do both

I have never underestimated Judo
be wise-don't underestimate DR. There is a whole lot there once you get out of Kata.

cheers
Dan

Quintin
12th April 2002, 05:58
Dear Mr Scott and everyone...Sorry for the breach in the rules, and I hope I now have it sorted out..Quintin

Quintin
23rd April 2002, 02:55
Mr Partamian...Through-out my limited training with the Takumakai, I have always been taught to give Shoumen Uchi as a strict over-head strike...I am usually corrected if my Shoumen Uchi tends to be a lazy Yokomen Uchi...At my dojo they teach me to strike for the crown of the head... Sometimes we use a bokuto for this over-head practice, but I guess it can be applied for a beer bottle or what-ever...I hope this has been usefull...Quintin

Arman
25th April 2002, 16:10
Quintin,

Thanks for your comments. Unfortunately, I'm still confused. I have scene both video and print of Kawabe Takeshi performing ippondori, karaminage, etc., and the uke clearly strikes with what looks like a back-hand overhead strike (still aimed to the top of nage's head) instead of your typical straight-downward overhead strike. It may be just a stylized difference, or I may just be misinterpreting what I am seeing.

Thanks again,

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group
Maryland

Jyrki
26th April 2002, 14:03
Arman,

I am a member of Takumakai and a direct student of Kawabe sensei. We have a Takumakai dojo in Helsinki, Finland. Our Japanese teachers - Kawabe, Mori, Amatsu, Umei etc. - visit Helsinki about three times a year. This year (just like every year) I will spend with some other members of our dojo two months in Osaka practicing Daitoryu.

I was living in Tokyo 1996-1997 about one year. At that time I practiced Daitoryu in Kondo senseis dojo in Katsushikaku near Shin Koiwa station 3 times a week for one year. I had a letter of recommendation from Takumakai. My excellent American training partners included Derek Steel, Mark Sumi and Scott Vogeley. Derek is still living in Tokyo while other two has returned back to USA.

Because I have practiced both in Takumakai and with Kondo sensei, I think that I know something about the differences between the two branches of Daitoryu.

Takeda Tokimune sensei, previous head of the Takeda family, combined Daitoryu and Ono-ha Ittoryu kenjutsu from the Aizu martial curriculum to form Aikibudo. In your post you referred to shoumen uchi in ippondori technique. In Kondo senseis dojo shoumen uchi, when you are attacking, is an overhead strike with katana.

As you know ippondori is the first waza in Daitoryu (both in Shoden 118 kajou ura-omote which is also called hiden mokuroku, and also in Takumakai Shooden which includes about 600 original daitoryu techniques). In Ono-ha Ittoryu kenjutsu curriculum the first waza is called hitotsugachi. In this waza you make a technique called kiri otoshi where men facing each other strike shoumen uchi at the same time. Timing in this technique is quite difficult to learn. These first techniques of Daitoryu and Ono-ha ittoryu are quite similar. In Kondo senseis dojo shoumen uchi resembles closely shoumen uchi of Ono-ha Ittoryu.

In Takumakai we too use this kind of shoumen uchi. In addition we have another kind of shoumen uchi, which is done by kodachi. Sokaku Takeda carried kodachi with him everywhere. He also taught Daitoryu using kodachi. Takuma Hisa received the only menkyu kaiden from Sokaku Takeda. Kawabe sensei is a student of Takuma Hisa. Kawabe senseis shoumen uchi you saw in that video is shoumen uchi with kodachi.

You interpreted this attack in your post as a backhand knife strike but it is in fact a kodachi strike. When attacking with kodachi you first draw blade out from the scabbard, which is tucked under your belt. After that you strike immediately - just like in battojutsu or iaido. Striking with kodachi is different than striking with katana. When you strike shoumen uchi with kodachi it is a thrusting and cutting motion where you hit the forehead or face of you opponent with almost the tip of the blade. That is why it looks different than striking with katana.

I hope you found this explanation helpful.

O genki de,

Jyrki Rytila
Takumakai Finland
jyrki.rytila@shh.fi

Arman
26th April 2002, 15:43
Jyrki,

Thanks for the post! Now it makes sense to me. While I of course knew the shomenuchi in ippondori that we do is a sword strike, I did not know the Takumakai version included one with a kodachi strike. Very interesting!

As you know, Derek is still there. He trained with us as well while we were at the Shimbukan. Mark Sumi has left, and so has Scott Vogeley. Derek accompanies Kondo Sensei and translates for him on his seminar trips to our study group. He should also be accompanying Kondo Sensei at the Aiki Expo next week in Las Vegas.

Again, Jyrki, thanks for your comments. If I ever just happen to be in your area, I would love to visit your dojo. If you ever make it over to the East Coast of the USA, drop me a line.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group
Maryland

jim w.
5th September 2003, 19:39
Hello to All, I have no experiance in Aikijujutsu, other than what I have read. I realize that there are few dojos that teach this outside of Japan. I was hoping that someone from this forum might have studied the Takumakai style of Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu. If so, what are the differences between this style and others? Any info. regarding your training, instructors, etc. would be welcome.

Jyri
11th September 2003, 12:40
There are not many Takumakai dojos outside Japan. My understanding is that there are only 3 active dojos outside Japan at the moment (in Finland, New York and Australia).

Please see this page
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/dwalter/takuma-kai/
for more information about possible Takumakai club in Florida (classes suspended at the moment).

I think that biggest difference between Takumakai and other Daitoryu associations is that Takumakai was founded by a group of people, not just by one people. There are 9 Kyoju Dairi teachers in Takumakai and other very respected teachers as well. They all have own dojo(s) and own unique way of doing Daitoryu techniques. So, it is very difficult to say what is Takumakai’s technique and what is not. For that reason, Takumakai has larger variation of techniques and teachings styles that other Daitoryu groups that were founded and ruled strictly by one person.

Takumakai was founded by students of Takuma Hisa and Heizaburo Nagatsu. However, some these students were also students of Tokimune Takeda. So, today in Takumakai you can find Sokaku Takeda’s techniques that are passed on by these three teachers.


Jyri Lamminmaki
Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai, Finland
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

jim w.
11th September 2003, 16:06
Jyri,

Thanks for the information. I was not able to locate this thread with a search, but Nathan Scott was nice enough to locate it and stick my post at the end of it. I am hoping to begin training in Takumakai next year, but I would like to find out as much as possible before then. After reading the posts it is good to see that the style is still active, and that students and teachers are traveling back and forth to train.

At this time I am a student of Walter Sensei, but in Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu, not Takumakai. Since Sensei has very limited time (full time job,night student,family,etc.), I consider myself very fortunate that he takes the time to instruct me in Yagyu. I have so many questions about Yagyu, that I don't want to even ask him questions about anything else. I was hoping to use the forums for this. Hopefully next year there will be a Takumakai class offered.

I'm glad I have your webpage now, was unable to find it before I posted here. You are lucky to have instructors that visit from Japan, and that you can train over there as well. Sensei is leaving for Japan also, and I believe he may be taking a student with him. I don't feel my Yagyu skill has reached a level for me to do this yet, but I would like to go next year.

I will continue to visit the forum and try to pick up any information I can!
Thanks again, jim watson.

Gary Gabelhouse
11th September 2003, 17:59
Hi Jim,

I have studied Daitoryu Aikijujitsu under Kenkichi Ohgami-Sensei since 1994. I do at least yearly visits for intensive training (5-6 hours a day every day for nearly a month) and have had Sensei and his senior students do seminars here in the USA.

Ohgami-Sensei lives in Nishinomiya and was a senior student of Takuma Hisa-Sensei. Ohgami-Sensei began studying under Takuma Hisa in 1961, I believe. He was one of those who founded the Takumakai. Sometime in the early 70's, I think, Ohgami-Sensei formed his own dojo, the Daibukan (google Daibukan and you'll find their website) which was named so by Takuma Hisa.

Since I have not studied Aikijujitsu under anyone else other than Ohgami-Sensei, I cannot speak definitively as to Takumakai vs. other Daitoryu techniques. I know I have seen demonstrations of what was called Aikijujitsu, but found them very dissimilar to the Daitoryu Aikijujitsu I practice.

The Lyons Press is publishing the English version of Ohgami-Sensei's book, "In Pursuit of Dreams: My Aikijujitsu" next autumn (2004). I could perhaps copy some of my training tapes (Sensei videos much of our training when I go back so I have it to fall back on when I get back stateside). However, Daitoryu, imo, cannot be "learned" via video--however, if you already "have done" the techniques under Sensei, one can "refresh one's memory" via video--just my opinion. Perhaps I am slow ;-)

Best!
Gary Gabelhouse

;)

Rodrigo Kong
11th September 2003, 22:13
Hello Jim,

In Jyri's last post he wrote about the many skilled teachers in Takumakai and their various methods. I have found this to be instrumental in our study of Daito-Ryu. Being exposed to a number of variations for a particular technique has helped our group learn the basics of the art on a theoretical as well as mechanical level. I think this is a great asset of Takumakai.

don
11th September 2003, 22:22
Hey, guys!

Any seminars forthcoming? (Really enjoyed Kawabe's...)

Thanks.

Nathan Scott
11th September 2003, 23:06
[Post deleted by user]

jim w.
12th September 2003, 04:51
Hi Gary,

You seem to be a man of few words ( 2 posts in 3 years), but I'm glad you decided to say a few here.
You train in the way most of us would like to, but cannot. You get about as many hours of training in that one month than most get in a year! I would also be interested in a seminar in 2004 if one is offered, as well as a copy of Ogami Sensei's book. I am lucky in that my Sensei seems to encourage students going to seminars, as he himself does (we were both at the Orlando Tai Kai a few weeks ago , although I was just a spectator).
Your Sensei videotaping your training to bring back to the U.S. is
a great idea, I'm almost surprised he does this, it shows an open mind on his part (not all high ranking instructors are like this, as you are probably aware). I agree that martial arts cannot be 'learned' from video, but they do come in handy if you know the style.

Hello Rodrigo, I agree, you just can't have too many good teachers.
Are you part of that 'Active Dojo' that is in NY ? (Jyri post)

Thanks for the response guys.

Rodrigo Kong
12th September 2003, 22:23
Jim:

Yes, I am a part of the "active dojo" in New York. I should make a clear distinction. We are a dokoukai (study group), not a branch shibu. We have our own dojo, but I it is more correct to refer to us as a dokoukai (unless you're talking about the actual space). We have been practicing regularly for about five years.

I have met with your teacher Mr. David Walter on a few occasions in Japan and in the US. I hope your training is going well!

louis
17th September 2003, 05:39
nathan:

as one who is new to this forum, i was wondering if you could clarify your objections to open seminars. admittedly i've only participated in one, and so perhaps do not have the breadth of experience to make a strong claim either for or against such seminars, but based on that one experience, i wouldn't want to rule out a future one a priori.

thanks,
louis colombo

Nathan Scott
17th September 2003, 06:35
[Post deleted by user]

soc
2nd November 2004, 15:07
Greetings,

What is the best way to find or look up the name of students under Hisa Sensei? I am interested in finding out more information about my instructor's sensei and how he fits in the whole Daito ryu picture.

Apparently he had students in NY and Cali so he should be well known to this board I would assume.

Thanks

Gary Gabelhouse
2nd November 2004, 19:08
Hello,

There appears not to be an abundance of Daitoryu teachers here stateside. My linneage is of the Hisa Line:

Sokaku Takeda--Takuma Hisa--Kenkichi Ohgami--Me

My teacher was one of the founders of the Takuma Kai and is a very senior Daitoryu teacher. Many of today's seniors, like Okabayashi-Sensei were Ohgami's students back in the 70's.

Perhaps I could help determine your teacher's teacher's place in Daitoryu. I am going back to Nishinomiya in a couple of weeks to train with Ohgami-Sensei. If we cannot establish a place for your linneage stateside, I could ask of my Sensei in Japan.

Best Regards,
Gary Gabelhouse

soc
2nd November 2004, 19:49
Then could you tell me if anyone knows of a kanji hosokawa. Apparently he recently suffered a heart attack and died. ??? From what I understand he studied under Hisa sensei. Thanks

Jyri
27th June 2005, 13:41
Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai – Helsinki Taikai 2005

Ten years ago, in summer 1995, two members of Fudoshin club from Helsinki went first time to Japan to practice Daitoryu aikijujutsu. This was the start of Daitoryu in Finland. Since then, several members of Fudoshin club have been practicing Daitoryu in Japan every year, from 2 weeks to 3 months periods. Takumakai’s teachers have visited Finland 2-3 times every year. Fudoshin club is now the biggest Takumakai’s dojo outside Japan and still the only place in Europe to practice Daitoryu aikijujutsu Takumakai.

To celebrate these 10 years of Daitoryu in Finland, we are organizing a Taikai and free public demonstration in Helsinki. Around 25 teachers and members of Takumakai from Japan will join the demonstration, including:
Shomucho Hakaru Mori
Shihan Takeshi Kawabe
Shihan Kyohiro Kobayashi

Also some members from Takumakai’s New York and Australian branches are joining the demonstration.

Location: Helsinki, Finland
Valkoinen Sali, Aleksanterinkatu 16-18
Date: 3.7.2005
Time: 13.00-17.00
Free entrance

Welcome!

www.daitoryu.fi
Jyri Lamminmaki

Charles_1
25th July 2007, 06:11
Hello and thank you for your time does anyone here have a email address or other contact information for Yutaka Amatsu sensei .
He is a Great teacher of Daito Ryu .
Thank you
Charles scott

jdostie
25th July 2007, 06:33
Hello and thank you for your time does anyone here have a email address or other contact information for Yutaka Amatsu sensei .
He is a Great teacher of Daito Ryu .
Thank you
Charles scott


I don't know if it's still good, but I just found this via a quick search.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/e_pro.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/e_main.html
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/amatsu/daito-ryu/

Hope that helps.

Charles_1
25th July 2007, 06:36
No that email is very old and does not work anymore .
Thank you
Charles Scott

Charles_1
25th July 2007, 20:33
thanks for the help
charles scott

john_lord_b3
26th July 2007, 06:26
Sorry for ressurecting a long-dead thread.. but I am wondering about the news regarding people of Daito-ryu Takumakai. The main website here

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm06.htm

seems to never been updated for, like, 7 years?

I heard that Mr. Kawabe is the only shihan who still actively teaching Daito-ryu professionally these days?

BTW, Australia is not all that far away from Indonesia, so maybe one day I can visit the Takumakai Australia branch, if they are still active. I practice a form of Hakko-ryu, so watching Daito-ryu 'cousins' practice their art should be very interesting.

Many thanks!

john_lord_b3
26th July 2007, 06:30
Amatsu sensei is from the Takumakai, so perhaps the Takumakai knows how to contact him. The Daito-ryu Australia branch regularly hosts Mr. Kawabe who is now 8th Dan and an official instructor of the Takumakai. You can visit their page here

http://www.aikiaustralia.com.au/

and maybe they can help you to contact the Takumakai and find Mr. Amatsu.

Grant Periott
27th July 2007, 15:06
Hi John,
(this post is very belated but...)you are most welcome to visit Takumakai Australia at either in Victoria at Geelong, Ballarat or in QLD on the Gold Coast. Takumakai DRAJJ Australia is growing all be it very slowly. We make a point of regularly visiting Japan and have Kawabe and other senseis visit Australia. Kawabe visits Oz once a year. Perhaps if you were to visit it might be good to coincide with Kawabe sensei's visit.

Grant Periott
27th July 2007, 15:13
Hi if you are interested in contacting Amatsu sensei try going to the Fudoshin website and contact Jyri. The Finland Dojo have had the most contact with Amatsu Sensei. He has not been involved with the Australian Branch of Takumakai.

Good luck

Grant

john_lord_b3
28th July 2007, 15:00
Thank you Perriott san for the kind invitation. I will surely take the chance to visit your Dojo one day. BTW, you are also very much welcome to visit our Dojo in Jakarta, Indonesia. I have an Australian student with me right now, a journalist for Australian Financial times. I am sure we will have a great time comparing our Jujutsu techniques.

Kendoguy9
26th October 2011, 14:50
Hello all,

I just watched a really good documentary on the Takumakai found here: http://www.guillaumeerard.com/en/aikido/videos/documentary-on-daito-ryu-aiki-jujutsu-takumakai.html

Enjoy!

Jose Garrido
5th November 2011, 01:01
Nice link,thanks Chris.

Nathan Scott
30th May 2013, 05:01
[Post deleted by user]