USJA Going Out of Business

[John Bennett]

It looks like the USJA is going to go out of business.

Look at this letter from their president...
[edited for brevity]

--------------------------------------------

Jim Bregman
A MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT
November 2001

To: All USJA Supporters:

...We are aware that you may have little confidence in us or our Organization at this moment, but the United States Judo Association is standing at the very edge of complete financial collapse.

We have perhaps two months of operating funds left. We have implemented staff reductions and are in the process of selling the USJA buildings. Until sold however, the mortgage payments are killing us, as is the debt load and the associated interest payments that we have incurred from legal entanglements.

Our revenues are flat or declining. This tells us that you, our members have voted with your pocketbooks and do not believe that we can provide the service that you want....

from: http://usja-judo.org/bregman01_pledge.htm

------------------------------------

He doesn't mention any reasons why they are failing. He says the reasons are "irrelevant".

I don't think they are irrelevant at all. When an enterprise fails, there are reasons. It would be instructive to know what they were.

Does anyone know the reasons?

What did they do wrong?

[CEB]

Originally posted by John Bennett



He doesn't mention any reasons why they are failing. He says the reasons are "irrelevant".

I don't think they are irrelevant at all. When an enterprise fails, there are reasons. It would be instructive to know what they were.

Does anyone know the reasons?

What did they do wrong?

I think Mr. Bregman uses the term "irrelevant" because, at this point in time the USJA membership roles are very aware of the reasons for the current financial woes. The USJA membership is who the letter is addressed to. The USJA financial irregularities have been the forefront issue of the USJA since late 95. I believe Mr. Bregman is just saying lets forget the finger pointing and focus on a solution because we all know the reason for the problem.

As far as going out of business, I think that premature. Even if the statutory entity would cease to exist you are talking about 1500+ dojos and 20000+ members. That is who the USJA is. They will need someplace to go for organizational support, maybe reorganize under a new charter maybe join the USJI who knows. I hope we don't find out.

[MarkF]

John,
I'm sure you have also read the previous letter[s] from Jim also. People should read this open letter as well:

http://usja-judo.org/bregmanltr01.htm

Here is a taste.

Mr. Phil Porter’s self assessment of his own managerial capabilities was that they were poor. I find nothing in my management review that would allow me in any way to quibble with Mr. Porter’s accurate self-confession. Mr. Jones did an outstanding job in bringing to light and documenting the impact and severity of this lack of managerial ability. His documentation has been posted to the USJA web site for those who are interested. The association owes Mr. Jones its very future because without his leadership and that of the Board of Directors, the courage to create a transition of management by removing Mr. Porter could not have been mustered. The USJA would have faced certain financial ruin and collapse.

History will judge Mr. Porter’s legacy to American Judo and the youth of this country harshly, I trust, because with all of his charm, marketing ability, and technical knowledge and skill; he did not need the self adorned and somewhat preposterous title of Osensei, he did not need to "sell" red and white belts to the highest cash contributor, he did not need to alienate and drive away loyal USJA members for disagreeing with his at times insane schemes and policies, he did not need to treat the other Judo organizations and their members with harsh words and disparaging remarks, he did not need to corrupt the finances of the association with his personal greed. But he did.


I think by taking things out of context as you did, is a disservice. As stated by Ed, the 20000 plus membership roles are what makes the USJA. Mr. Bruce Bethers called this organization dead well before the Novemeber letter was published. Another disservice.

Jim Bregman is a principled man who agree to take over in a time when the last managerial member made a mess of everything, proffiting personaly. Jim doesn't discuss that outright, but read that letter, the letters in between and the response from a member to this open letter to its members.

Porter began his "cash cow" with his lawsuit against the US Black Belt Federation (now the USJF) in 1969 and his often racially charged remarks back then. I will not go into that as Jim has not either. Porter's image was coming through back when Donn Draeger wrote about "what Mr. Porter was doing with his organization.

[MarkF]

Here is the beginning paragraph from the above-mentioned member:

As I read the most recent letter from the new USJA President, Mr. James Bregman, I took time to reflect on all of the events that have taken place in my short time back in the USJA. I have always been a member of both the USJA and USJF since my introduction to Judo (it was my Sensei's attempt to avoid the destructive politics of American Judo). As I reached adulthood, in the early 1980's, I left the USJA for two reasons, no one was concerned that I was "Judo" orphan member, and the former "Armed Forces Judo Association" did very little to nothing in supporting the current United States Military Members. The "Leadership" was a dictatorship and seem to divide, rather than further the friendship/fellowship of the entire Judo community.

To read more, click here (http://usja-judo.org/donaldson_ltr.htm)

If the USJA does fail, let there be no doubt as to fault.

[John Bennett]

Mark,

I wasn't trying to do a "disservice" to anyone. I'm trying to plan my future. I'm trying to introduce judo/jujitsu into my part of the country where it does not currently exist.

I'm organization shopping. I want to start building with an organization that will allow my students to continue with a supportive, nationally recognized organization long after I'm gone. We need insurance and rank recognition. We need touranment support. We need guidance.

I'm currently looking at USJJF, AAU, USJA, AJJF, and others. They each have their own pros and cons.

I didn't want to do my people a disservice by hooking them up with an organization that may not exist in the coming years.

I just don't see how Porters shenanigans of more then 6 years ago could now cause the USJA to be "on the very of financial collapse". I thank you for the references. I'm trying to determine if the USJA has other problems I don't know about because I'm not an "insider".

I'm an "outsider" trying to assess the organization's viability and merit equiped with only the vaugest understanding the politics and problems you "old-timers":) take for granted.

It's very difficult.

[CEB]

Originally posted by John Bennett
Mark,

I'm currently looking at USJJF, AAU, USJA, AJJF, and others. They each have their own pros and cons.

It's very difficult.

Sounds like you may be Jujutsuka. The the USJA does have a Jujutsu syllabus but I believe it is a set syllabus with set standards. Toward the end of 'O sensei's' tenure as leader of the USJA there was an attempt to allow all kinds of martial arts into the USJA for rank regonition purposes. I believe after Mr Porter left there was a motion carried to stop that practice and to stick to just Judo and USJA Jujutsu. I have no knowlege of the USJA Jujutsu program maybe Richard or some one else could help you on that one.

I think the AJJF is a Danzen Ryu group. If you are Danzen Ryu then that maybe cool.

USJJF is Mr. George Anderson's group. They also practice their own syllabus but they do take in other styles. Jeff Cook left Mr. Porter to go with the USJJF I believe. He post here, he seems like a nice guy, you could private message him for some info on the USJJF.

Here is some 'insider' tales for you.
There used to be only 2 Judo groups the USJA and the USJF. (Mark can tell you about the time when there was only one.) My first teacher was USJF. In the USJF my teacher could only promote up to sankyu. To test beyond sankyu we had to test at a USJF yudanshakai. Our closest yudanshakai was in Chigago which was about 300 miles away. So very few us went any higher than sankyu. I didn't. USJA was a lot more accessible and user friendly for small town Judo. I thought this was their strength. The further away you lived from a yudanshakai the more appealing the USJA becomes. I don't know if quality control ever became an issue or not. All the USJA people I know are good Judoka. Well USJF had its advantages, at least our club would always dominate Men's under black belt divisions at the local USJA sponsered tournaments. Hell we had brown belts with 15 to 20 years experience because no one could or would expend the time or cost to travel 300 miles for a nikyu test.

Good luck on your search. BTW: I hear O sensei has a good insurance program. And he has a pretty robust rank regonition program too.

Take Care
Ed Boyd

[Robert Carver]

Ed:

It would seem that your information with regard to the USJJF is a "little" out of date. The USJJF was formed by George Anderson, but he is no longer a USJJF Officer. The current leadership of the USJJF are (as of 1998):

Bruce R. Bethers - President
Robert M. Carver - Vice President (that's me)
Michael Dunphy - General Secretary
John F. Chatwood - Treasurer

George Anderson has remained as onboard as the JJIF Presidential Advisor and Chairman of the Central Technical Committee, but the USJJF is NOT George Anderson's group.

I have already corresponded with John on the subject of his USJJF affiliation.

Mark:

Speaking the truth is NOT a disservice. While I do not recall Mr. Bethers saying that the USJA is already dead, it is certainly gasping for life. Since we already know why the USJA is in such shape, I will not elaborate further. I will say that my hope, and that of many of my colleages is that the USJA can pull it off and survive as an organization. I definately think that Jim Bregman was a brilliant choice to bring in as the USJA President. If anyone can pull off the miracle of their survival, he can.

However, many are seeing the writing on the wall. The USJA Jujitsu program was mentioned previously. I bet you would be surprised to learn that Ben Bergwerf, the Chairman of the USJA Jujitsu Committee is a USJJF Life Member, and is actually trying to recruit USJA Jujitsu members that may want to join the USJJF. In a recent email that I was CC'd on, Mr. Bergwerf stated:


<snip>... they have always accepted the USJA JJ style and USJA members as legit Jujitsuka. The USJJF is open to all who wish dual membership, and quite a few USJA higher ranked members are part of their organization.
>
>As we do in the USJA, rank recognition is based on either testing and/or review of existing rank credentials and background by a board. Originally we tried to get a "mutual recognition" program going, but the USJJF board decided that their fee structure and vetting program must remain in place. (I strongly suspect that they voted to be able to maintain high standards,
by having the ability to reject rank recognition for people who had been improperly promoted by specific solitary individuals, without proper testing or review etc. --- not to mention any names that may offend you)
>
>I have life membership in the USJJF, without any specific rank, since I strongly believe that this organization can do good things for US Jujitsu, both for our own traditional, no rules, JJ and the newer competition JJ. I wanted to support them, emotionally and financially, as you are supporting the USMA. They are factually the NGB for the US, even though there are many other independent medium and large organizations (Danzan Ryu, Miyama Ryu, US Jujitsuans, Wally Jay's organization, etc. too many to mention .. ), which may resent their being, and thus will probably remain independent."

[CEB]

Originally posted by Robert Carver
Ed:

It would seem that your information with regard to the USJJF is a "little" out of date. The USJJF was formed by George Anderson, but he is no longer a USJJF Officer.

Thanks for the update. I learned about the USJJF in a conversation with Mr. Hickey in Toledo. I think that was about 1988 or 89. So Yes, I'm really out of date. I don't get out much. Thanks again.

Ed

[Robert Carver]

Ed:

I am happy to be of service. If you get the opportunity, I invite you to have a look at our web site at http://www.usjujitsu.net. Some definate points of interest would be the USJJF News (http://www.usjujitsu.net/news/index.htm) section. You will find some good info on the Jujitsu Competition at the 6th World Games in Akita, Japan and other USJJF events. Also, I have an article that I wrote on the World Games, the USJJF and the JJIF (our International Governing Body) appearing on the March 2002 issue of Grappling magazine. It should be out on the news stands in a week or so, so have a look.

Best Always,

[MarkF]

Hi Robert, et alia,
I certainly did not mean that John was the guilty party or anything of the sort. I only meant that it was a disservice to leave the impression that the USJA is dying or is dead. After all, you (Robert) did post what Bruce said during lunch with him. I think some have jumped the gun, is all (posted on Budoseek, I believe) I meant, and if you and/or John understood it that way, I apologize for the wording. I am not the most patient person in the world, and I admit to that.

Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, lying by omission is also a lie. Now I am not even close to saying that about anyone, God knows I've never been a friend of the USJA or the Armed Forces Judo Association. While O Phil was President, and first thing on winning his lawsuit (which, btw, the US Black Belt Federation, now the USJF, did not contest because they lacked the funds to do so), people went to the USJA for easy ranking. There are a myriad of 6-dan while few, if any USJA 7 or 8 dan because those grades must be approved by the International body, the IJF, and unless you have won at least one Olympic Gold or world championship and can be the source of funding (IOW, well-known), that ain't gonna happen. You will, on retirement from fighting, automatically get to 6-dan. The USJF 8-dan you can count on one hand, and have a couple fingers change. Also, consideration must be given to USA Judo Inc., as they are the NGB for international tournaments, not to mention national, an umbrella org as it were over the other two.

As to one's teacher only being able to promote to sankyu, I'm wondering the certified grade of the teacher. The USJF only certifies grade, it does not control what a dojo does. Also, and it has been a while since I've asked, one must be sandan to have one's own dojo without supervision under USJF rule. I was once promoted in the locker room by my teacher, whose English was a bit stunted, by saying "You promoted" then took me out to have a BLT (of course, I asked them to leave out the bacon. Kosh-root law, you know.;) . About a year or so later, I received my cert which was actually just a membership card, much like a credit card with my grade and length of time as a member.

But I don't doubt for one minute that the USJF is probably the most conservative, by far, of any judo organization in the world. But then, when you were certified, you deserved it. Which is kind of nice. I was a white belt until I was ikyu. This meant I fought lots of other white belts at shiai, even when sankyu or nikyu, but that was the sixties and early seventies. Then, one's grade in Southern California was submitted to Nanka Yudanshakai. Then, when they got around to it, to the USJF. It is somewhat different today, but even in New Mexico with only one "real" dojo (in my town), we have a representative of the USJF. He certifies, then the National body certifies, and on and on and on. Lots of politics, red tape, the usual. All other judo teachers make up the state board which are held on the phone. The USJA made it easy. It isn't that those who were graded didn't deserve whatever it was, only that it was much easier, and you have got to admit there is no one easier than Porter.

One who posts here is out in the sticks, too, is graded ikyu, but for his area and state, he is it, and he is with the USJA, I believe. I was teaching classes as ikyu as well when I was fifteen (and a half). It was another five or six years to shodan, for a total of around 9 years. But in the meantime, I had one hell of a trophy collection.:) Normal operating procedure.
******

Anyway, I'm rambling on so I'll stop. My gut reaction to the first post was to read the rest of the open letter. I found that it said there were only enough operating funds for sixty days, but while that sounds terrible, the mention of normal operating charges were also coming in as they always had, so not anything in that letter stated they needed such and such to stay open after sixty days, only that the situation was urgent, though he specifically stated he would not ask any member for more than he was given in return and never would. Also, this is Jim's last year as President, the lame duck as it were, and the next, continuing CEO had already been chosen (See letter I posted and the reply under that).

Oh, Yes, Robert, I know a number of judoka who are members of the USJJF and members of the USJA at the same time. The better known of those off the top of my head is Neil Ohlenkamp.

Anyway, I think there is more here than anyone really wants to know about survival in a jungle where money "is" slim-pickin's (not the late actor, either). Get a gold medal at the Olympic games and major judo shows (or really, just the gold medal match) will be a major boost in advertising revenues.

Best always,

Mark

[CEB]

Hi Mark,

My teacher was a shodan. He is still a shodan. I think he was a shodan in 1966 when he started the university Judo club. We had other Judo Black belts who were university students and professors pass through the club but the man who founded the club was the best teacher I ever had. He is a history professor by trade. I took his History of Western Civ class as an elective. He is a great history teacher too. He is a gifted educator.

He voiced the opinion that getting USJA rank was too easy. He always said I'd rather be an honest shodan rather than a questionable sandan or yondan. However, I don't recall any sandan or yondan who could really hold their own against him. He was quite good, but also as you and I have said before. 'Size Matters' and he was big and strong. He did say the USJA dojos really do a lot to promote downstate judo. (llinois Judo not near Chicago. )

I didn't know what the USJF rule on minimum rank for an independant dojo. Sandan surprises me. In Kendo you have to be a Yondan to have a dojo, though there are mentoring programs for yudansha below 4th dan who want to start kendo clubs. I guess I expected Yondan to the minimum.

Have a good week.

Take care
Ed Boyd

[MarkF]

My first teacher was also a shodan. His supervisor (and my last teacher) was godan, but he showed up once with a few students in all the years I was there.

He was about the size of Jon Bluming and in incredible shape. I used to randori with him when I was thirteen. It was a private dojo, from which he made part of his living, for ten dollars monthly with no limits on the number of classes once one proved he could take serious ukemi. This was in 1963, and I started just after turning twelve.

I have noticed that some with the USJF say that nidan is now sufficient rank to run one's own, but I would have to ask to be sure of that. There is the possibilty I was wrong. I pay the insurance, and that is usually the limitation with the "suits" so to speak.

I would say, though, that since sandan is difficult to move from (upwards in grade) that it is about right. I'm not sure of the grade my sensei was when he passed away, but he always was announced when he mounted the mat to ref., as godan. He was that grade until I left LA in 1986. He passed away in Dec. 1989, and just recently went fishing to find some other things about him since we sort of lost touch since my move.

Anyway, that would be the reason for not grading above a certain level, and he was probably, technically speaking, "supervised" in some manner. The limit on grading is one way to keep tabs, I suppose.

Not many like to admit their teacher was a relatively low rank but good teachers are not always the most experienced. He had classroom experience, while my teacher was a salesman during the day. I learned the most from him, and tweaked it with the next.

Mark

[Jabonn]

John if you are organization shopping you may want to start with Texas Judo (http://ww.texasjudo.com). I was speaking with some one last nite about Organizations (USJA, USJF, IJF ...). They informed me that if I was a member of the Texas Judo Organization, I was already a member of the USJI.

I have not checked with the Texas Judo people to confrim that.

Jabonn Flurry

[Jack B]

As I understand, Texas Judo Inc (TJI) is a local organization under the national USJI. I got Judo Ikkyu from a TJI teacher, but my ranking is through USJI.

Jack Bieler

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Jack B
As I understand, Texas Judo Inc (TJI) is a local organization under the national USJI. I got Judo Ikkyu from a TJI teacher, but my ranking is through USJI.

Jack Bieler

If I understand the hierarchy correctly, the USJI is the National Governing Board for judo in the United States, and was organized to represent US judo on an international level - specifically the Olympics, but also with the International Judo Federation. As part of this, the USJI is responsible for selecting members for the Olympic and World teams, so most elite competitors are USJI.

There are (I believe) five national and international tournaments that are open only to USJI judoka. Most tournaments are open to any member of the big three (JI, JA or JF). You will generally need membership in one of the three for insurance purposes. I'm not sure if AAU or USJJF membership would be acceptable in a JA/JI sanctioned event.

At the level directly below USJI are the class A organizations - USJA and USJF, and at the next level below are the state governing boards - Texas Judo Inc, etc. The class A orgs are allowed a certain number of votes within the USJI (not sure how many), while each state org is allotted one vote per 20 members.

If you're in Texas and interested in competing, TJI is probably the way to go. TJI is probably one of the stronger state orgs in the country. A quote from the weekly TJI newsletter, forward to Judo-L



Texas begins the season with competitors attending the Lone Star Classic next weekend, January 26th and follows with the Texas State Senior Championship on February 9th, a Junior/Senior Clinic by Corinne Shigemoto on February 16th, the Texas State High School Championships and the Texas Junior/Senior All Star Event on February 23rd, the Texas State Collegiates on March 2nd, the National Collegiate & High School on March 16th, the Swamp Classic on March 23rd, and finally the Senior Nationals on April 12th & 13th.

Of course that's not the end of Texas Judo events. We continue with the Brown Belt Championships and another Junior/Senior All Star event in Dentor, the Kodokan Invitational, and many more events leading to the National Junior Olympics and then have a state-wide or regional event every month for the remainder of the year.


Makes me wish I lived in Texas (but that's the only thing).

[MarkF]

Of course, I would leave out connectling locally.

One may join one organization and choose another as an "associate membership" e.g., USJF with AM to USJI or the other way around.

Some are members of all three.

One can never have too much insurance.

Mark

[Ben Reinhardt]

Mark F. wrote:"if any USJA 7 or 8 dan because those grades must be approved by the International body, the IJF, and unless you have won at least one Olympic Gold or world championship and can be the source of funding (IOW, well-known), that ain't gonna happen. "

Hi Mark, I've been away for a while from the forum. Good to see it's still hopping.

Please, please, please, Mark, stop telling people the above statement. It is patently false. Or are you just being sarcastic ?

The USJA can promote anybody to whatever rank they want. And, as you pointed out, they did ! Porter got 9nth Dan from the USJA. I can assure you the IJF had nothing to do with that promotion.

IJF does not approve of ANY NGBs promotions. USJI (the USA NGB for Judo) can promote up to whatever rank they want. IJF does not grant anything but honorary rank. You CAN get an IJF rank certificate via the USJI (or your own countrie's NGB and Union), but is really more of an endorsement than anything.

If you can locate technical standards for IJF rank promotion, please post them.

Respectfully,

Ben Reinhardt

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by Jabonn
John if you are organization shopping you may want to start with Texas Judo (http://ww.texasjudo.com). I was speaking with some one last nite about Organizations (USJA, USJF, IJF ...). They informed me that if I was a member of the Texas Judo Organization, I was already a member of the USJI.

I have not checked with the Texas Judo people to confrim that.

Jabonn Flurry

If you are a member of TJI, then you are a member of USJI, dba USA Judo.

TJI is a Group B member of USJI, otherwise known as a SGB, or State Governing Body.

Ben Reinhardt

former TJI member.

[Ben Reinhardt]

dakotajudo wrote:"I'm not sure if AAU or USJJF membership would be acceptable in a JA/JI sanctioned event."

Neither AAU or USJJF membership would be acceptable at a JA, JI, or JF sanctioned event.

Ben R.

[Robert Carver]

Originally posted by Ben Reinhardt
dakotajudo wrote:"I'm not sure if AAU or USJJF membership would be acceptable in a JA/JI sanctioned event."

Neither AAU or USJJF membership would be acceptable at a JA, JI, or JF sanctioned event.

Ben R.

In the case of the USJJF, why should it be? We are talking Judo and Ju-Jitsu, two separate "sports". Duh...

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by Robert Carver


In the case of the USJJF, why should it be? We are talking Judo and Ju-Jitsu, two separate "sports". Duh...


Well, I never said it should be, Duh...

Ben R.

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Robert Carver


In the case of the USJJF, why should it be? We are talking Judo and Ju-Jitsu, two separate "sports". Duh...

What we are talking about pertains to information requested by the originator of this thread:



I'm organization shopping. I want to start building with an organization that will allow my students to continue with a supportive, nationally recognized organization long after I'm gone. We need insurance and rank recognition. We need touranment support. We need guidance.

I'm currently looking at USJJF, AAU, USJA, AJJF, and others. They each have their own pros and cons. (emphasis added)


Given that the USJA does have a jujutsu division and that Phil Porter has been making a political issue of USMA membership acceptance for tournament entry, it's not an unreasonable clarification.

[Robert Carver]

Sorry guys, but I was a little (OK a LOT!) cranky this morning. Sorry for being a smarty pants...

Peter, as a point of clarification, John is a Brazillian Ju-Jitsu practitioner, and while he does mention "judo/jujitsu" is his second posting, the four organizations he lists, USJJF, AAU, USJA and AJJF, are all Jujitsu organizations or have Jujitsu divisions. I know from my personal contacts with John, his preference is in Jujitsu competition as opposed to Judo and being able to get other services provided by an organization. While USJI and TJI would certainly provide his school with the opportunity to compete in Judo competition, it would not do a lot of good with regard to Jujitsu. Simply, USJI/TJI is its single emphasis on Judo. Likewise, joining a "jujitsu only" organization such as the USJJF will limit his opportunities as well.

So John, if you want your school to be able to compete in both Judo and Jujitsu, then you are pretty much stuck with belonging to two separate organizations. If you are only looking at one or the other then you have some obvious choices. So you really need to decide which direction you want to go.

[MTripp]

Really this is about two different things. Are you looking to form yet another "association", or are you looking to hold Shiai other than Judo.

If the goal is to hold Shiai then the ONLY choice is AAU. They have the best insurance, at the best price, cover EVERYONE and have the big numbers and experience to assist.

If the goal is Judo shiai, then you HAVE to join one of the USJ's or you can't play, and in some cases you have to join USJI at top level events.

If you are just looking to form your own group or go your own way, then it really doesn't matter much.

[MarkF]

Good to see you back again, Ben. I was beginning to miss my almost daily punishment.:)

Also, to Mark Tripp, welcome back. You did post here some time back, no?:) I had thought it was at budoseek at one time, but I get spanked a lot around here thus shaking out the cobwebs.

I did get a complaint about this thread but I see, as is usual here, members moderated themselves back to decent behavior.

So Robert and everyone else knows, Ben R. is a national class referee, I am a local one, so I would give the nod to him on these matters concerning membership in the NBs or SBs. There is a USJF state rep even in the small "State of Entrapment" New Mexico, so most if not all, are probably represented by one or more in most MA.

John,
Join a judo club, learn your nage-waza and enter some judo tournaments. With your experience in newaza, you just may like it, and some others just may be forced into defending you. As it is with new students, the things you are looking for should be sampled, and there is no better way than doing, IMO.

It's just a suggestion, though. The Sambo players kick some serious butt, and some just curl up and hope for the best while some serious BJJists do the same (kicking butt, I mean).

Anyway, thanks to all for not letting it get out of hand. Handshakes and rei all round.

Mark