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Hayate
22nd July 2000, 22:47
Hi again!

Can anybody tell me what the actuall meaning of the Shiho Nage technique is?
I mean it's not just a four direction throw technique...is it?
O-sensei spent 20 years in perfecting it,so there must be more about it.

Dennis Hooker
24th July 2000, 21:02
Shihonage to me means four- corner throw. It is taken form Shiho kiri or four directional cuts. The movements are the same with or without the katana. I was thought that all the basic principles of Aikido are related to sword techniques and I teach them that way also. The foot movement and body placement is the same; the hip action is the same in a throw or a cut.
Dennis Hooker
http://www.shindai.com

Dojorat
24th July 2000, 22:55
Greetins,

I once attended a seminar taught by a senior Yudansha from the Atlanta Aikikai. He had an interesting interpretation of "Four Direction" Throw. Working from a same side wrist grab, we explored how dropping your center back and out could get Uke's center to move forward, the first direction. From here with an appropriate lock applied behind Uke's elbow (their palm is turned up) it was possible to move Uke up and back, the second direction. Stepping in, applying side leverage to Uke's elbow and turning enabled you to rotate Uke about his center and to break his posture and balance, the third direction. This set you up to cut down and project or pin Uke, the Fourth Direction.

It was an excellent insight. A gem of a technical interpretation that I have unabashedly stolen and added to my repertoire.

I learn one, I formulate ten, I teach one each to ten others, they each formulate ten, from each I steal one, I formulate ten...

Cheers,

Neil Hawkins
28th July 2000, 00:10
This technique is fairly old. In Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu jujutsu we call it Tekubitenage or Wrist hand throw. It is performed as part of the Ken tai ichi no kata, which illustrates how techniques evolved from sword work.

We do it two ways, first is the across the body as is normal, and the second way is on the outside which I think corresponds to what Joe is describing.

Either way the emphasis we place on the throw is that the hand that is being led should constantly be moving away from the attackers body in a spiral motion. There are no 'corners' in the throw when we do it. Even the sword technique appears as one continuous cut rather, than seperate ones.

Of course there are many variations, my favoutrite is where we turn it into a shoulder throw (but over the locked wrist/elbow) which is extremely devastating, and hard to fall from. :)

Regards
Neil

Gil Gillespie
5th August 2000, 04:46
I'm only jumping in here because no aikidoka should let a great thread like this remain unanswered for over a week. Shiho nage, brothers and sisters! It's kihon, but it's forever study, explore, refine, and for the fortunate few among us (me excluded) UNDERSTAND.

Its derivation from the sword waza of the same name nudges it toward a broader interpretation. There have been some thoughtful responses here. Usually we view shiho nage as a four corner throw on the horizontal, i.e. choosing which direction we throw uke.

Take that cross (an ancient pan-cultural symbol of defense BTW) and think of it on the VERTICAL. Now, bear with me, superimpose the drawing and cutting with the katana on that cross. 1., de-ai from katate-dori, yokumen, etc coincides with bringing your hands to the tsuba to draw.
2. Having joined with uke's attack in taijutsu you turn your hips and extend his arm horizontally destroying his balance and connecting with his forearm in a move exactly duplicated in the draw & cut of nukitsuke. 3. as you keep extension of uke's arm and pivot underneath it in taijutsu uchimawari, you keep the circle horizontal like a "roulette wheel, which further distends uke's balance and structure. In pure swordwork this pivot would be more vertical, like a "ferris wheel." (I often caution aikidoka to avoid the ferris wheel. It gives uke a chance to restore his balance & counter) 4. With uke's arm before your hairline or with a sword in the same position, with your hips and triangles all in good alignment YOU CUT. In taijutsu uke is at your feet; in sword you have completed kirioroshi.

Just a thought I've been mulling. But mostly let's get our aikidoka contributing on this great thread.

Osoto2000
6th August 2000, 23:09
I am a Judoka, who has just attended the ICAN MA camp in Sidmouth England, where we mixed and utalised our different arts to see if we could use aspects of each others styles for our own art. I must admit up until now I have looked upon Aikido as prearranged and reliant an Uki doing the right thing. apparantly I have until now seen the soft styles.
Today we were taught Shiho Nage, at first it did not work on us Judoka, as we could not stop instinctivly turning out to face Tori. It was then that we were shown two different methods of Shiho Nage, that really changed my mind. The first was, instead of just turning in Tori struck my out-sretched arm under the elbow (very Painful), this had the effect of bringing me up on my toes and gave Tori the oppotunity to get into position and apply the throw. the second was as a sutemi waza and was completly devastating.
It was also explianed that it was really derived from sword work and that the last person you are concerned about is the one holding your wrist but wish to dispose of the others around him before neatly slicing him in half with the last movement of your sword.
I would just like to say how much my views have changed, and how effective shiho nage can be.
Congratulations on a fine Martial Art.

MarkF
7th August 2000, 11:58
I'm judoka as well, and in 1969, I had my first exposure to shodokan ryu aikido, and to this day, I include many aspects, including shiho nage, in my curriculum. From that, I worked out kami shiho gatame, which is everchanging, and depending on your center, can be worked similarly. Normally, you take up one of the four corners to control the other three, but I have found by constantly shifting yourself, maintaining a low center, it is much less taxing and the job gets done.

Sorry for interrupting such an interesting discussion. Please, continue.:wave:

astudent
8th August 2000, 06:03
i remember once a few years ago when Saito Shihan came to california and we worked on shiho-nagi. i remember him saying that once you can master shiho-nagi you can master everything else in aikido.
shiho-nagi seems to incorporate all the subtleties and even the not so subtle body movements that are used in all the other techniques.
however,this is one technique that seems to be ever evolving. once you feel you've got something figured out it changes and you realize their maybe an even "better" way of doing it.

BC
11th August 2000, 17:37
I remember reading an interview in ATM with an aikido instructor from Japan (I apologize for not recalling his name) who was saying something to the effect that there are two techniques in aikido which are the main building blocks of the rest of the techniques - shihonage and ikkyo. Shihonage being the basic of vertical circular movement and ikkyo being that of horizontal circular movement. Just thought I'd throw that out...

Gil Gillespie
12th August 2000, 03:45
OK, BC, I'll lay my head on the block again. Shiho nage as a vertical circle gives uke a window to recapture his balance and reverse. His arm should be kept as horizontal as possible to maintain distension of his balance as you pivot uchimawari under his arm to affect your throw. Ikkyo as a horizontal I'm having trouble picturing. The "crank" of uke's elbow through your extension as you've already joined with his attacking hand is seemingly vertical in nature, taking him over, be his attack shomenuchi, munetsuki, kataedori, whatever. I'll be listening.

astudent
13th August 2000, 19:51
i will have to agree with BC on shiho-nage and ikkyo. but i also think that both of these techniques take place on many planes at once and are not just vertical or horizontal.

i don't think that the "arm should be kept as horizontal as possible to maintain distension of his balance as you pivot uchimawari under his arm to affect your throw". this seems to imply there is an outward sweep of the hand and arm during the movement. in my training, the hand and arm are moving in a more vertical way, front to back, straight down the back, then out towards the wall.

i'm sure this other way works but don't think it is necessary.

whereas ikkyo, feels to be more horizontal then vertical even though this i'm sure happens on many planes at once. in ikkyo there really is no "crank" on the elbow as it is more of gaining control of it and guiding it out(horizontal) and down.

BC
14th August 2000, 17:35
Regarding the vertical and horizontal aspects of shionage and ikkyo, my interpretation of what this Sensei meant wasn't so much in relation to how uke moves, but rather how nage's arms move (ie, shihonage embodying a vertical cut with a sword). I agree with you Gil that ikkyo omote seems to be more vertical, and I'm thinking that ikkyo ura relates more to the horizontal movement this sensei was talking about.

Julian
16th August 2000, 12:06
Hi All,

An aspect of Shiho-nage no one seeems to have mentioned (unless I've missed it) is that Shiho-nage is so called because practice of it begins with throwing of the attacker in four directions. This aspect is very well illustrated in Saito Sensei's Traditional Aikido vol 4 (p120-123).Here, from a righted handed katatedori attack Sensei throws uke to ukes right (Kihon omote), and back on the lie of uke's attack (Kihon ura). In addition the other two less practiced directions, throwing uke forward in the same direction as his attack, and throwing uke to the left following a right handed attack (which involves uke moving through 270 degrees while in the air) are shown. The latter two are less practiced probably because of the increased likelihood of injury to uke as the ukemi is very hard to receive.
I say Shiho-nage begins with throwing in four directions because once those directions are mastered (I have no idea how long this takes as I fumble arround with kihon)it is a small step to throwing in any direction regardless of the direction of attack. Which is the wonderfull aspect of Aikido, the multi-attacker mindset. Shiho-nage enables the practitioner to throw the first attacker at any other aggressor regardless of their position.


Julian Bever

BC
18th August 2000, 17:24
OK, I dug up the old issue of ATM (#64, Vol. 13, No. 4; July/August '99), and I now realize that I need to correct my previous statement. The Interview was with Yoshio Kuroiwa Sensei from Tokyo. In the article he states (p. 12) "Ikkyo illustrates a principle of taking a person's balance in a vertical plane...Shihonage illustrates the principle of taking a person's balance in a horizontal plane."

I apologize for not getting the info right the first time. Definitely a reminder for me to get my facts straight before I spout off, or, as one of my relatives used to say "Mind before mouth..."

don
6th September 2001, 14:58
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Osoto2000 (on eBudo/aikido)[B]I am a Judoka, who has just attended the ICAN MA camp in Sidmouth England....Today we were taught ShihoNage....the second was as a sutemi waza and was completly
devastating.
__________________________________

Though coming a year late to this thread, I was very interested in this person's experience in aikido as a judoka. In particular, I'm interested in how shiho nage was done as sutemi waza. It sounds like a killer, given how your arm gets wrapped up during the technique, but I can't visualize it. I tried emailing osoto2000@hotmail.com, but was told the account is inactive. Could someone explain how shiho nage is executed as a sacrifice technique?

Thanks.

=====
Don J. Modesto
djmodesto@yahoo.com
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida

Graham Wild
7th September 2001, 13:31
The only thing I can say is I would also love to know.