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yamatodamashii
21st January 2002, 14:34
I'm not certain how to express this... What I consider my true beginnings in martial arts were with Hwa Rang Do. One of the things that impressed me most about the art was that we never just threw "a straight punch" or "a backfist"; every technique was aimed at a specific pressure point (of course, we learned them by simple English names--top of the ear, temple, under the heart, xiphiod process, etc).
I do not want to return to the HRD organization, since their bylaws require that one give up all other martial arts affiliation; I have too much interest in martial arts to do that, and too much respect for Dr. Lee to lie to him about it. I do, however, wish to continue my training in this area.
I was wondering if someone could recommend an art with similar emphasis on pressure points? I remain skeptical of Dilman and Montiague... Have I been misinformed about their knowledge? I know aikido uses some, but they have so little in the way of striking...
I've been thinking about Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming; he seems a logical choice, but there is so little about dim mak (is it "dien hsueh" in Mandarin? I forget) in his books... Would this be a sub-study of qin-na?
Any thoughts?

tweety
21st January 2002, 19:31
I'm a fan of the Dragon Society. The website is indeed www.dragonsociety.com. I would recommend that you catch one of Rick's seminars near you (listed on the website) and see if it's something you like.

Steve Kovalcik

red_fists
22nd January 2002, 00:23
Hi Jason.

Yes, Dim Mak falls under the Chin-Na/Qin-Na umbrella.

There are a lot of System that utilise Chin-Na and powerpoint strikes.

Dim-Mak, AFAIK, is name coined by Montaigue.

I have never heard that term used besides by him and his students.

Hope this helps.

yamatodamashii
22nd January 2002, 11:11
I'll definitely have to look up the Gladstone dojo, since they got a nice recommendation dropped into my private e-mail, as well.

Interestingly, Mooney sensei--who is currently being trashed in another thread--also recommended the Dragon Society.

Mr. Bergstrom, you are the first open approval of Mr. Montaigue I have ever read--which makes me all the more interested. I will take a closer look.

Is anyone familiar with Dr. Pier Tsui Po of the Golden Lion Academy in Australia? He has apparently written "the book" (just recently) on the subject.

Does anyone know if Hakko-ryu has a larger striking repertoire than aikido (I'm still in the "gaining information" stage before I commit to a course of study...)? I know that the founder was an acupuncturist, and put a lot of that knowledge into the style.

Thanks again!

Kimpatsu
24th January 2002, 01:50
Yamatodamashii,
Shorinji Kempo is also centred on kyusho, and you learn the names in Japanese, but again, you would have to give up everything else to train, as you can't serve two masters. Why would you want to anyway? But I guess that's a question for a whole other forum... ;)

yamatodamashii
24th January 2002, 15:10
That's the same logic Dr. Lee uses. I just don't view martial arts training as "serving a master". As for why multiple styles--easy; no single style teaches everything.

Thanks for the info, though!
-----
A couple members of e-budo (one moderator in particular whose opinion I greatly respect) have been good enough to e-mail me privately about this particular subject, the general gist of it being that there are lots of good reasons that the study of pressure points is a waste of my time. As I have read their e-mails, I recalled the following opinions that I have seen expressed on e-budo, mostly by people whom I respect--I was going to send it privately, but I thought instead I might put it out where everybody can read it:

Pressure point training is the highest and most effective level of martial arts training.
Pressure point training is a worthless fantasy.

Trapping is the highest and most effective level of martial arts training.
Trapping is useless.

Aiki is the highest and most effective level of martial arts training.
Aiki is useless.
Only "real" aiki is good, and *you* (whomever is being addressed) are not doing "real" aiki.

Kicks are stronger and have greater reach than hand techniques.
Kicks are worthless in a real fight.

Standing and striking is greatly inferior to groundfighting.
Groundfighting is tactically unsound unless you are fighting a single unarmed opponent, preferably on a mat.

Guns always beat martial arts.
Training with guns *is* martial arts.
Very few non-criminals are going to carry guns anyway (especially in states without concealed carry permits), and even fewer could use them effectively.

Knives would probably be good martial arts, but no two instructors can even agree how to *hold* the darn things.
-----
I guess that leaves the martial art of choice as artillery.

I think that probably, in every case above, the truth is somewhere between the extremes (i.e., the techniques mentioned above are all useful *under appropriate circumstances*, but none should be relied upon to the exclusion of all else). I have found something that I enjoy learning, and that I have used and seen used more than once against real, resisting people (Marines have this thing about not going to the brig), and I'd like to learn more. Worst come to worst, I'll find that there is nothing more to learn... but I doubt that that is the case.

Steve Williams
25th January 2002, 00:11
Jason. I think that Bruce Lee said it best "take what is useful" or something like that anyway...... anything is the right thing if applied in the right place at the right time.......

All is useful, or all is useless.... just depends on the circumstances. Exactly as your last paragraph says.





Also Tony, I must dissagree, "you can't serve two masters. Why would you want to anyway" you can serve many masters, just that you may not serve them equally..... and you would want to because as Jason says no one style has the monopoly on all situations.

While we both train in the same style, I am always "looking" at others (not with a view to training in them, but with a view to learn from them), I for one know that Shorinji Kempo, while being an extremely efficient martial art/ self defence, is deficient in a couple of areas.

Daniel Lee
25th January 2002, 00:50
Diverging back to Jason's original question about pressure points in the martial arts, S. Parish of the Nihon Budo Igaku Senmon Gakko authored the book 'Budo Igaku Gokui: Katsusatsu-ho no Hioku(The quintessentials of Martial Arts Medicine: The Inner Secrets of Killing/Healing Methods)' by Baseball Magazine in Japan. Parish is the official successor to Nakayama Kiyoshi, founder of Budo Igaku, and both men are leaders in osteopathy, chiropractic, seitai, sekkotsu and some of the most well studied koryu jujutsu researchers I am aware of.

The book goes into specifics of both kappo (revival techniques) and sappo (striking), highlighting the entire bodys kyusho (pressure points), the type they are (e.g. striking, pain or healing) and the manner they are attacked through the use of extensive photos and technical diagrams. Parish has a website (in Japanese) at Budo Igaku (http://www.budoigaku.org)

-------------------

Daniel Lee

Kimpatsu
25th January 2002, 01:59
Steve,
Do you remember BSKF summer camp in 1992, when Aosaka Sensei taught howa on this very subject? He made it absolutely clear that if you want to try out another art, you must quit Shorinji Kempo first; Mizuno Sensei refused a karateka for the same reason.
As to serving two masters: If Shorinji Kempo eschews tournaments (Kancho said we would never be an Olympic sport), and TKD, for example, views the Olympics as its ultimate goal, how do you square training in the two? Surely they are incompatible. No other art has the explicit goals of Shorinji Kempo, so how do you square training in Shorinji Kempo with other arts with clearly different goals? And while we're about it, let's not forget that the idea of budo is to apprentice yourself to a master, who then teaches you. To whom are you apprenticed if you're training in more than one art? (This also leaves aside the question of wouldn't it be better to train twice a week in one art than once a week in two arts?)
Or have you been driving your car so hard you've bust the transmission? :p

yamatodamashii
25th January 2002, 11:03
Does that mean that I can't be a wrestler *and* a painter? And what about all of the famous martial artists who have mastered more than one style? I can't think of a prominent Chinese stylist who doesn't teach at least two styles; most Okinawan karateka get SENT to someone else who can teach a certain aspect of karate better.
Ueshiba learned several styles, as did Kano; Hatsumi sensei still trains in judo. Doshin So himself studied several arts-- Chinese arts in Manchuria, I believe? as well as hakko ryu.

Does the Budo Igaku have an English page? Or at least one that IE Japanese language support can read; I can't even get all the kanji to show.

Thanks for all the great feedback, by the way!

Kimpatsu
25th January 2002, 11:51
Does that mean that I can't be a wrestler *and* a painter?
Not professionally, you can't, because you can't apprentice yourself to them both.

And what about all of the famous martial artists who have mastered more than one style?
They were geniuses; you're not. Neither am I, which is why I can only learn one art.
Ueshiba learned several styles, as did Kano; Hatsumi sensei still trains in judo. Doshin So himself studied several arts
Thereby proving my point that it's the province of the genius, and the exception rather than the rule.

Does the Budo Igaku have an English page?
Not that I've noticed, but for kanji-enabled software, although I don't know which OP you're running, try http://office.microsoft.com/downloads/2002/imejpn.aspx for Windows Japanese language support.
BTW, if you're not interested in the traditional system of apprenticeship, why choose a handle that exemplifies traditional Japanese values?
Later. :karatekid

Steve Williams
26th January 2002, 01:13
Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Steve,
Do you remember BSKF summer camp in 1992, when Aosaka Sensei taught howa on this very subject? He made it absolutely clear that if you want to try out another art, you must quit Shorinji Kempo first; Mizuno Sensei refused a karateka for the same reason.


Remember it well (although my Japanese is very poor, so I had the translated version :p )

But with a view to learning (not to train) we should always try to encompass other styles....... you can never stop learning, and no style/ system has a monopoly on every technique.....




BTW, while we are "name dropping", Mizuno sensei has many books on other MA in his house, which he refers to upon occasion (to seek extra knowledge).
Also he has many friends who are teachers in other styles, I am sure that they do not speak about the weather when they meet.... ;)

Kimpatsu
26th January 2002, 01:40
with a view to learning (not to train)
Agreed, but that's not what this thread is about; the man was looking for places to train. BTW, what time of the morining is it where you are, busily typing away like this?

Steve Williams
26th January 2002, 01:46
Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Agreed, but that's not what this thread is about; the man was looking for places to train. BTW, what time of the morining is it where you are, busily typing away like this?


You are right, I just didn't read the first post properly :look:

Its 2am here, and I am just about to go to bed (have to work tomorrow as well :eek:


BTW it is actually morning here, not morining, must be a Japanese thing...... ;) :laugh:

Kimpatsu
26th January 2002, 02:04
Oops... Do you know, I think that's the first typo I've ever committed on this forum (now I'm paranoid and must check everything twice).
Working on Saturday? I pity you. Until training this evening, I'm taking it easy.
Best,

yamatodamashii
26th January 2002, 10:08
Mr. Bergstrom--definitely the soundest advice on the thread. No wonder you are a moderator! Referring back to your first reply, why is my training "interesting"? I mean, I agree... but "you never know how you look through someone else's eyes", as the song goes.

Kimpatsu--thank you, but I am not really looking for a "place" to train. Where I live, I will have to commute to find any decent instruction. I am looking for a "style" to train.
Also, I am not certain how things run in your neck of the woods, but around here neither wrestlers nor painters (professional or otherwise) apprentice themselves, at least not in any way that I would use the word "apprentice".

Has anybody heard of Julio Toribio Sensei?

www.seibukanjujutsu.com

MarkF
26th January 2002, 11:10
Some of you who have been around a while probably have seen this quote, as it is my favorite of all things in general, not just MA.


"Learn from the mistakes of others. You may not be around long enough to make them all yourself" -Jigoro Kano

Mark Brecht
26th January 2002, 12:52
Originally posted by yamatodamashii
Has anybody heard of Julio Toribio Sensei?

www.seibukanjujutsu.com

Jason,

I have met Julio on several occasions here in Japan. He is a very kind and friendly person, also an excellent martial artist. I would highly recommend that you look him up. I can guarantee you it will be worth the trip.

MarkF
1st February 2002, 15:44
Toribio may be kind, and a fine teacher, but of what I can't really say. His version of history is so skewed, and mistake-laden, I just cannot make out much. The following is a small quote from his "history of Jujutsu:"


Jigoro Kano was born in 1871. He, like many, studied jujutsu. He also was politically involved, and rose quickly in the system as a member of the Japanese Parliament. Kano was very involved in jujutsu and realized that many masters were dying and taking their techniques with them, as martial arts and jujutsu were no longer needed. He created Kodokan Judo,(hall for the study of the way of the gentle way). This was his way of inaugurating a new school of jujutsu. This style was based mainly on the throwing techniques of the Kito Ryu and the striking and locking techniques of the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu. He added techniques from other schools and had teachers like Saigo Shiro of Daito Ryu teach there also. He did not wish, as is understood, to dismember jujutsu and replace it with a sport, but rather envisioned the Kodokan as an institute which would preserve all teachings and techniques of the various jujutsu ryu.


Who wants to go first? I do. Since I brought it up, Jigoro Kano was born in October of 1860, so he cheats Kano out of 11 years, a typo, perhaps? Well, "He also was politically involved, and rose quickly in the system as a member of the Japanese Parliament." How did he do that if he were born in 1871, then all by his lonesome, created Judo out of thin air, became a member of parliment before founding his jiu jitsu around 1882? So he was ten, perhaps, eleven years old when he did that? Pretty remarkable, indeed.

"Saigo Shiro came from Daito ryu." Let's pretend that is true. He was fourteen years old when he arrived at the Kodokan and 16 years old when he participated in the infamous judo V. jujutsu at the Tokyo Police department dojo. That was probably in 1886 (some give the date as 1883, and if that's true, than Kano truly was an incredible boy of twelve or thirteen) The most that he learned was ochikiuchi[sp], which was a practice of etiquette and manners inside a castle/retainers home. Most of DR say that there was little if anything martial about this training. He most likely left because he WANTED to learn to fight, not how to fold his napkin (I won't go into his mistranslation of "Kodokan.") This must be thought as possibly true, as even this is in question.

While his meaning of Kano not setting out to "create" a sport is accurate to a degree, Kano said when asked in his later years whether he wanted Judo in the Olympic games. "I will do nothing with judo in this direction as judo is not a *game.* (asteriks are mine) However, if others wish to do so, I will not stand in their way."

Since Kano was made a member of the IOC, the Olympics were pretty much an idea at the turn of the century or even in the 1910s. Games did occur, but few nations were involved at the time, and it was because of politics that he left that post. On his trip to Cairo in 1938, he was making plans for the Olympics of 1940, which may have included a *demonstration* of judo if it had been held. It wasn't for obvious reasons.

In Japan, Kano is known as the Father of Japanese Sports. Judo was second to that in the government's collective mind. It was probably that way for Dr. Kano as well.

One more thing. Kano never envisioned judo to be anything more than it was. It is based on three ideas which the many ryuha of jujutsu didn't really understand as of yet: Kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake, or off-balancing, positioning for throwing, and "hooking" or finishing the throw. IOW, uke had no choice but to finish what he, himself, had begun with his momentum. These were foreign to most jujutsu dojo of the day, as only the very strong, big jujutsuka could master a throw, and only through using strength. Kano never argued strength not be used, its obvious a much bigger man could probably do away with a much smaller opponent, but when skills were equal. It was the "when" and "which muscles" to be used. He claimed only the shoulders and hip muscles were necessary if his teachings of academic jujutsu were followed.

Anyway, I trust Mark Brecht to sniff out a good teacher, and I'm sure he must be a good teacher of technique, but if you really want to know more than that, I suggest a library, so I won't even post a link here.

One person on one particular web page said that Uyeshiba Morihei started his MA career at the age of fifteen in 1868! So he was born in 1853 and died in 1969, if true. More often than those proven to be the oldest, there are others who are said to live long lives like this, but it simply isn't true in this case. It just isn't accepted that anyone who was not born in a hospital, but the birth date is written in the family bible isn't reliable, they say, but in this case, he was an old man when he died, but 115 years old is not the case with Uyeshiba.

Since his history reads as if he got it from the same source, use your head and try to prove him wrong. You don't need to tell him he is wrong, but at least you will know, and that is what is important.

Anyway, I still would be very wary until his jujutsu is sampled, and two classes ought to do it. Most modern day founders of gendai jujitsu are really teaching techniques not so well hidden in the syllabus of the Kodokan. I learned that one year long ago.

So that is what I believe about Mr. Toribio's history of jujutsu, and that from a single paragraph. Be careful on the web. It's dangerous out there on the WWW.;)

Regards,
Mark

BTW: This really should be discussed, if any wish to, in the "gendai" forum general, judo or (koryu) jujutsu forums, so if there is to be more, it should continue in any one of them, not here. It may be an entry to "bad budo" but that isn't in question, only his facts are.

txhapkido
12th February 2002, 20:20
We rountinely use pressure points in Hapkido. I to have reservations about Dillman but none whatsoever about Erle Montaigue. He is responsible for me being broke as I have to buy most of his videos! I checked him out throughly (as I do all my instructors) and even had one of his senior instructors from Australia stay with me for a week one summer. Erle is controversial but from talking with his student and other respected Chinese martial artists, they all agree the man can apply his art. I think my own skills have leaped just from studying his videos. I'm probably the only Hapkido guy who uses fajing!