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Lil Dave
24th July 2000, 04:41
What is everyone's take on the duel between Sasaki Kojiro and Miyamoto Musashi? I've heard it suggested that this never actually took place, or that atleast it can't be verified because of the source(s?) of the story. Also, on the internet I have seen for sale an approximation of the weapon Musashi used at Ganryujima. How do they know what it looked like? I'm a HUGE Musashi fan, so I'm inclined to believe anything cool about him, and disbelieve stuff that isn't so good. I'd like to know what people with a more balanced view, as well as more knowledge, think.

Did the fight-but-not-a-duel between Muso Gonnosuke and Miyamoto Musashi take place? I've seen this questioned as well.

Where can I find a good English source that has a bunch of Musashi stories? Preferably with a breakdown of the stories validity (if available, I realize that is awful picky to want for a book in the English language).

Dave Buck

Yamantaka
24th July 2000, 11:43
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lil Dave
[B]What is everyone's take on the duel between Sasaki Kojiro and Miyamoto Musashi? I've heard it suggested that this never actually took place, or that atleast it can't be verified because of the source(s?) of the story.
Did the fight-but-not-a-duel between Muso Gonnosuke and Miyamoto Musashi take place? I've seen this questioned as well.

Hello, Dave!

We have no proof that King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table ever existed but it's a damned good story (even John Steinbeck had a hand at it...). The Italians have a saying : "Si non é vero, é bene trovato!"(If it's not true, it's well contrived!"
The stories are beautiful and they instill us with high ideals that we may strive for (even if we never reached them...). I think sometimes that's all we can ask for.
Enjoy it!
Yamantaka

P.S. That's not to say that you shouldn't look for the "real facts". I just think you shouldn't overemphasize them...

hyaku
24th July 2000, 13:31
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lil Dave
[B]What is everyone's take on the duel between Sasaki Kojiro and Miyamoto Musashi? I've heard it suggested that this never actually took place,

I have visited the island now called Ganryu Jima a number of times to do demonstrations. It cannot been seen from the mainland anymore as there are some very big factorys on the others islands nearby. You have to charter a boat to get there.

Mostly overgrown with long grass. Quite amusing as some iaido groups came with us to take part. They tried to sit in seiza to do forms. Of course you couldn't see them. More to the point they couldn't see anybody else. So much for Iai and combat!

There is an area of bushes and trees. In there is a very large commemoration stone dedicated to Sasaki Kojiro.

Afterwards Miyamoto retuned to Kumamoto and reported the facts to his Lord Hosokawa
This is how the fight can be substantiated. The present day Hosokawa family have many living, written, verbal traditions, and historical artefacts etc that have been handed down through the generations. When asked if he had the oar Miyamoto said he had thrown it away. He made a replica for Hosokawa. This is at their Yatsushiro home. A bit shorter and thicker than the oar type bokuto you see for sale which are somewhat exagerated I think.

Miyamoto's sword is at a small private museum (Shimada) in Kumamoto. Not much of a sori and quite heavy (Then again real swords are!) Also there are tsuba, artwork etc.

There is a Sanjaku Blade there to give people an idea of what Sasaki's sword was like. This was made by the smith Matsunaga Genrokuro. Another one of his blades a 1 Shuku 2 Sun in a tanto mount can be seen on my website

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

[Edited by hyaku on 07-24-2000 at 07:50 AM]

24th July 2000, 14:22
The brochures at Miyamoto's grave in Kumomoto indicate he was buried standing up, dressed in full armor and with his two swords. If so, where did they get the sword described above in the museum? I'm sure there are a lot of exaggerations about Musashi Miyamoto. The Japanese, like most other cultures, like to embellish the stories about their heros. I'm also sure there are some facts which make up the basis of most of these stories. Thus, you can probably find the truth somewhere in between.

Gene McGloin
24th July 2000, 18:11
[i]Where can I find a good English source that has a bunch of Musashi stories? Preferably with a breakdown of the stories validity (if available, I realize that is awful picky to want for a book in the English language).[/B]


Ejai(?) Yoshikawa wrote a "historical fiction" (yeah, I know. What does that mean?!) about Miyamoto Mushashi. I read it about 12 years ago and while it is not historically true, it was none the less a terrific tale! You can get it as either the HUGE, single volume, or broken up into five paperbacks.

As far as historically accurate books published in English, good luck! I'd check with Koryu Books.

Gene

Lil Dave
24th July 2000, 23:54
I have read Eiji Yoshikawa's book (twice, at about a 1 year interval). It is one of the few fictional books I've read more than once. I wish to purchase it, but I don't want to purchase one with vulgar words used in the translation. If anyone knows of one...

I wish to know what is (probably) fact or fiction about Musashi, just to know. I will enjoy stories anyway. I'm glad to hear that the duel at Ganryu Island (just like the movie!) did take place. What is your source for the info about Musashi reporting to Hosokawa?

I'm interested in learning more about this oar he carved. Perhaps it is against Miyamoto's philosophy to want one, but I would like to obtain it. How much does a real katana weigh?

Dave "Beginner, needs to be taught almost everything" Buck

Walker
25th July 2000, 00:07
hyaku, it would be really cool if you were able to post pics of some (or all) of the stuff you mention - either here or on your page. There is so much Musashi this and Musashi that, it would be great to see artifacts with some historical provenance.
Question - does the common “Musashi” double cucumber tsuba have a connection with him?
Another thing for sword nuts out there - wouldn’t it be great to see a collection of Yagyu tsuba with commentary on their meanings. Dave Lowrey really wet my appetite in Autumn Lightning, but I want to see some good photos of the originals (barring holding them in my hands).

ghp
25th July 2000, 00:32
I'll find the quote, but in Nakamura Taizaburo sensei's book Nippon-to Tameshigiri no Shinzui [The Essence of Testcutting with the Japanese Sword] he relates a conversation he had with one of the Niten Ichi Ryu soke. The then soke stated that at the time the duel occured, Musashi was about 36 years old and Sasaki was about 69 years old.

Colin, have you heard this from your sensei? I must add that I've also heard it from others not associated with Nakamura sensei.

Regards,
Guy

hyaku
25th July 2000, 01:00
What is your source for the info about Musashi reporting to Hosokawa?
..........
My source is Hosokawa San. She lives about 40 minutes drive from here.
..........
How much does a real katana weigh?
..........
I forget now and didn't weight it. If I remember it was a 2.6. They had took it out of the case for people to handle courtesy of a sword appraiser friend of mine. Your right. I should go down there sometime, take some pics and put on a page.

I'm sure he was buried with some swords but expect like me he had more than one.

There is a lot of fiction flying about. As Miyamoto epitomizes this "samurai image". Also there are a number of people all over Japan that profess to own the real scrolls of the five elements (Gorin no Sho). But Yoshikawa Eiji was one of Japan's foremost writers and not a pulp fiction writer. I'm sure he researched his book well visiting the present generation Miyamoto san and other experts. He was in his mind trying to capture was he thought was Miyamoto's story.

What I do know is the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu I practice is very real living pratical spiritual tradition. In all my years of practice, being taught by Imai Sensei is like a dream come true.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

hyaku
25th July 2000, 01:11
Originally posted by ghp
I'll find the quote, but in Nakamura Taizaburo sensei's book Nippon-to Tameshigiri no Shinzui [The Essence of Testcutting with the Japanese Sword] he relates a conversation he had with one of the Niten Ichi Ryu soke. The then soke stated that at the time the duel occured, Musashi was about 36 years old and Sasaki was about 69 years old.

Colin, have you heard this from your sensei? I must add that I've also heard it from others not associated with Nakamura sensei.

Regards,
Guy

Hello Guy, Yes I did hear that. It seems the problem with verifying things is that there is lots of evidence to support Miyamoto's side but not so much about Ganryu.

Really ironic though that one of the main hyohosho is now in Kokura. Also if weather had not been so cloudy on August 9th 1945 history would have been even more different.

Regards Colin

Gil Gillespie
25th July 2000, 03:01
Thanks everybody! Great thread. I, too, would like to learn more about Musashi, but we must all accept that he is so shrouded with legend now that historical facts at this stage may be impossible to ascertain. To whit, my wife the former Junko Takagi of Shizuoka City, thought for her whole life that Musashi WAS a legend, a la Paul Bunyon. Through me the unworthy gaijin she has learned that he was indeed real.

Colin, I have to echo your sentiments re: Imai Sensei ("a dream come true"). I feel that way about my senseis and also about Saotome Sensei, our shihan. I trust most of us on this site look back with such veneration on our first senseis.

Don, I read your post re: Musashi being buried vertically with full armor and daisho, and in truth it raised my eyebrows, since in a country overcrowded for thousands of years I had understood cremation to be the norm. Yours was the first reference to burial of a Japanese corpse I've encountered, with the exception of battlefield mass burials.

So I ran this scenario past the above-mentioned Ms Takagi, my resident expert in all things Japanese. She said it was exceedingly rare (even Tokugawa was cremated) and may have had something to do with regional customs, since Kumamoto is waaay out there in western Japan, or perhaps an exception made for an exceptional warrior, which Musashi most certainly was. She went on to regale me with Okinawan customs, where the remains are disinterred a year later and the bones washed with especially strong liquor.

At least we're left with Go Rin No Sho.

As an aside, the handsome actor who portrayed Kojiro in the "Samurai" trilogy, Matsukata Hiroki, was notorious for his womanizing in an era when such goings on were not nearly as openly accepted as today. He was quite the feature in scandal tabloids in his day.

The former Miss Takagi concluded by cautioning me not to trust Japanese history markers: "I hate to tell you,but the Japanese will fake anything. They just don't care." Let us all be thus advised!

Lil Dave
25th July 2000, 06:49
They just make markers for whatever they want?!!?

That is so cheap. Apparently it is an Italian saying, but a Japanese doing. By the way, I like the way that is said in The Cowboys (a John Wayne film): "If it's not true, it ought to be."

Speaking of Dave Lowry, that is where I got the information that started this whole thing. He casts some doubt on the Ganryujima incident in his book "Bokken: The Art of The Japanese Sword".

If Sasaki Kojiro was 69, wouldn't that be a little bit, well, uhmm--cheap? Was it socially acceptable to fight old men (as if Mr. No Bathing himself would care about social rules)?

Dave Buck

Lil Dave
28th July 2000, 01:07
Does this mean that Gan ryu or Ganryu Ryu really existed? If so, is anyone aware of its present day existence?

DAve Buck

matthew kelly
8th August 2000, 04:32
"...on the internet I have seen for sale an approximation of the weapon Musashi used at Ganryujima."


i seem to recall you making some reference in a later post to dave lowry of yagyu shinkage ryu, and that you've read his book on the bokuto and its history.

i think one issue raised not only in his book but in many other books by practitioners of various ways has been the issue of the functionality of a weapon being key in determining whether or not a budoka should use it. keeping in the spirit of functionality over aesthetic, et cetera.

considering that the weapon you're describing was probably made for the purpose of making money above all else, i don't really think i myself would want to purchase such an item. of course, that's just my opinion.

just thought i'd raise that issue as well. hope you don't mind an outsider jumping in this discussion.


matthew kelly

[Edited by matthew kelly on 08-07-2000 at 10:59 PM]

Mike Praskey
8th August 2000, 11:37
Dave:

I stumbled across a site some weeks ago that lists
many of the historical Koryu. A style called Gan-ryu
is listed and attributed to Sasaki Kojiro. Unfortunately
I've lost the link, otherwise I'd post it for you.

Joseph Svinth
8th August 2000, 12:50
A book you might find -- I'm pretty sure it's still in print -- is Sugawara, Makoto, "Lives of Master Swordsmen" (Tokyo: East Publications, 1988). ISBN 4-915645-01-0. Available through Kinokuniya books USA.

For an online review, see http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/bookreviews.koryuken.htm

A website you might try is http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Courtyard/1553/fhead.html

[Edited by Joseph Svinth on 08-08-2000 at 07:09 AM]

ghp
8th August 2000, 17:34
"...on the internet I have seen for sale an approximation of the weapon Musashi used at Ganryujima."

considering that the weapon you're describing was probably made for the purpose of making money above all else, i don't really think i myself would want to purchase such an item. of course, that's just my opinion.

I've not seen the particular internet offer mentioned here, but I have seen these authentic copies for sale in Japan. The bokuto flares from tsuka to kissaki, becoming about twice as broad as a regular bokuto. They are said to be fashioned after the bokuto still held in possession of family descending from the lord to whom Musashi reported after the duel.

Colin Hyakutake knows more about this.

Regards,
Guy

Lil Dave
9th August 2000, 00:21
Mr. Praskey,

Was this the page you were speaking of? (It is a large list of ryu, saying Gan Ryu started ca. 1600, founded by Sasaki)

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/6065/ryugi.html

This site was one contributing factor to my asking about Gan Ryu.

Dave Buck

note: you needn't adress me formally even if I do you; I do, in fact, prefer Dave above other most other things I could be called :-) . I'm just a punk kid (17) so I'm trying to get in the habit of displaying respect for my elders.