Training Kenjutsu alone....

[Rounin]

i like kenjutsu very much but i cant find a kenjutsu dojo here
so id like to know if somebody trains kenjutsu alone and hows
it like. respectfully, Rounin.

[meat]

Hi Rounin. I don't train kenjutsu alone but it is part of the curriculum at my jujutsu schoool. I wouldn't recommend training alone because you really need a qualified instructor to teach you. Yes, kenjutsu cuts look very simple but there are many subtle mistakes you can and will make without reaslising it, which is why you need a proper instructor supervising. just my 2 cents

[Ian Remi]

Originally posted by Rounin
i like kenjutsu very much but i cant find a kenjutsu dojo here
so id like to know if somebody trains kenjutsu alone and hows
it like. respectfully, Rounin.

Rounin ~ Please be so kind and sign your full name as per the E-Budo rules. As to your question, you may wish to read through the following discussion thread:

Are you an asset or liability to JSA? (http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4986)

[Soulend]

Hi Rounin, and welcome to the forum. As was already stated, you may be able to find some sword instruction if there is a Jujutsu dojo where you are. Another idea is Aikido, which includes some bokken work in it's curriculum.

I know this wasn't really your question, but my question would be why you wish to practice kenjutsu to begin with. Swords are no longer carried around, so there is little 'practical' use in the sword techniques themselves. For physical conditioning, there are more effective activities. If it is to live out some sort of 'samurai' or 'Highlander' fantasy, you will be disappointed. As with any martial art, it is a lot of hard work over a lifetime, not to be entered lightly.

Much of the benefit of classical swordsmanship is in the learning of the theories, concepts, and philosophy behind it, and in the continuation of tradition. None of this is accomplished without instruction. There is a bit more to it than simply swinging a sword around. For example, a person may be able to mimic a particular cut, but not realize why the cut is made that way, or directed at a certain target. A member of a Ryu would know that the cut is that way to exploit a suki, or gap in the opponent's armor. There is a lot of depth that would be missed by training alone, with no current or prior instruction. So search hard for a competent sensei- it will definately be worth it!

That said, and without any desire to rehash the old thread, I don't think training alone makes one either an asset or a liability to JSA, as long as:

1. You don't present yourself as a member of a classical ryu, real or ficticious.

2. You don't attempt to teach others, especially under the pretense that what you are teaching is authentic.

P.S. - I just did a search for Rio de Janeiro + kenjutsu on the web and got a lot of hits (168). Most of these sites weren't in English of course, but I got the impression that there are quite a few organizations and dojo there that teach the use of the sword.

Good luck!

[M.W. Jones]

Greetings to everyone.

I'm interested in the origin/reference source for the Kato Kiyomasa qoute on David F. Craik's 1-27-02 post.

"Having been born into the house of a warrior, one's intention should be to grasp the long and short swords and to die."

I have a striking Yoshitoshi print of Kato Kiyomasa sitting seiza in armor without his helmet on. He seems to be in sorrowful contemplation. A half fallen banner waves on an iron staff with a jutte like hook on the weighted end leans behind his form. I can't read the kanji yet so...

It's the only print I've been fortunate enough to purchase. The image is so emotive. I've found out a little about him from a passage in Richard Storey's 1978 book "The Way of the Samurai". Apparently he was a somewhat xenophobic member of the Nichiren sect of Buddhism and a military commander whose weapon specialty was one of the pronged spears. He served in the Korean campaigns 1592 under Hideyoshi.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
I should post more often:(
Shugyo

M.W. Jones

[Soulend]

Hello Mr. Jones. The quote on my signature is a remark in a set of precepts or regulations written by Kiyomasa. This is the same group of writings in which he suggested the samurai who are caught dancing or participating in Noh should be ordered to commit seppuku. His writings were translated along with several others in the book 'Ideals of the Samurai' by William Scott Wilson. It is apparently out of print now, but Barnes and Noble usually has a few copies. A search on Yahoo of Kato Kiyomasa will yield a lot of information and sources of artwork featuring him.

[M.W. Jones]

David,

Thanx for the info. I should have certainly thought to check for Kato Kiyomasa on the web, but the p.c. and I don't really get along all that well. Not unlike the Samurai's view of the gun, and giving it up as a tool generally unsuited to their particular ethos.

I'm off to trip on my hakama for a couple hours.
M.W. Jones

[Usagi]

Originally posted by Soulend

P.S. - I just did a search for Rio de Janeiro + kenjutsu on the web and got a lot of hits (168). Most of these sites weren't in English of course, but I got the impression that there are quite a few organizations and dojo there that teach the use of the sword.

Good luck!

For real, serious koryu kenjutsu in Brasil there are basicly two options:

Muso Shinden Ryu and Shinto Muso ryu.

The SenSei i would recomend is Shikanai Ichitami (who has teaching licenses in both).

There is a nipo-brasilian kendoka who's presenting himself as "oficial representative of the Niten Ichi Ryu and Suio Ryu for latin america".

January past i had the chance of train his so-called "SuioRyu"...:rolleyes:

For those who want to see, go to his home page and use some translating program.

http://www.institutoniten.com.br/index.htm

And for his videos:

http://www.institutoniten.com.br/ITCHI/galeria_v%EDdeos.htm

Be afraid, be very afraid :up:

[Sidharta rezend]

The Niten Institute was created in Brazil in 1993 by sensei Jorge Kishikawa and teachs the art of samurai sword and japanese culture to brazilians.
Kishikawa sensei is 7th Dan in Kendo from Japan, has achieved the brasilian Kendo Championship for ten times, and was vice-champion on the Open World Cup in Paris 1995. Beside the Kendo, Kishikawa sensei studies the jojutsu, iaijutsu and the ancient Kenjutsu fighting techniques.
For this purpose, Kishikawa sensei travels to Japan twice on year for SHUGYO, when he has the oportunity to be invited for training by sensei and Soke from many important styles.
As result and in recognition to his technique and principles, sensei Jorge Kishikawa was nominated oficial representative for the Niten Itchi Ryu and the Suiyo Ryu to South America and for the Shindo Muso Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu Jojutsu styles for Latin America.
With more than 30 years of experience, travels and shugyo, Sensei Kishikawa is the most gradueted authority in Kenjutsu in Brazil and remains undefeated in Kendo matches in Brazil.
On the "Instituto Niten" students can learn the techniques from Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, Iaijutusu , Jodo and Jojutsu, from several styles, all of them directly visited by the Senseis from Japan, their Kata and true fighting techniques. In Brazil, other people, from Aikido, are also teaching Jodo and Iaido, but without having the proper experience in real fight strategy.
This is the the diference between the "Instituto Niten" students and the students from aikido or just kendo.
We pratice the kata and techniques from the ancient koryu styles, and learn how to apply this techniques in fighting situations, including the two swords techniques, created by Miyamoto Musashi.
The major profit related by our studants, however, are the improvement in concentration, self confidence, pratical application in personal life and stress reduction.
Our doors are open to anyone, in Brazil or worldwide, with desire two learn the samurai sword arts and their applications not only in figthing situation, but also in the everyday life.

Bellow are some pictures from one of the Kishikawa sensei's last year shugyo to Japan, when he visited the Niten Ichi Ryu dojo.
Please click on the image to enlarge.

Wenzel Böhn - Niten Institute Administration
Sidharta Rezende - Niten Institute Website Administrator

http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/pedra%20da%20sucess%E3o%20e%20todos_s.jpg (http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/pedra_da_sucess%E3o.JPG)http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto%20hasso%20web_s.jpg (http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto%20hasso%20web.jpg) http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto_dojo_s.jpg (http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto_dojo.jpg)

Please visit our website (http://www.niten.org.br/) for more information (Portuguese)

[Yamantaka]

Dear Mr. Colin,

Is Mr. Kishikawa, of Brasil, the "official representative of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu", designated by Masayuki Imai Sensei?
Really interested

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
For this purpose, Kishikawa sensei travels to Japan twice on year for SHUGYO, when he has the oportunity to be invited for training by sensei and Soke from many important styles.
As result and in recognition to his technique and principles, sensei Jorge Kishikawa was nominated oficial representative for the Niten Itchi Ryu and the Suiyo Ryu to South America and for the Shindo Muso Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu Jojutsu styles for Latin America.


YAMANTAKA : Dear Mr. Sidharta,
Since you are a representative of the Niten Institute and of Kishikawa Sensei, I'd like to ask you a question :
a) Travelling twice a year to Japan and being invited for training does not mean TRAINING IN KENJUTSU, which demands long years of apprenticeship with a master in a close relationship. Former experience in Kendo means almost nothing since, as Mr. Kishikawa himself has said before, "to know kendo does not mean to know kenjutsu"; and
b) who gave Mr. Kishikawa his Menkyo Kaiden for the arts cited above? And is there an art called Muso Shinden Ryu Jojutsu?


Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
With more than 30 years of experience, travels and shugyo, Sensei Kishikawa is the most gradueted authority in Kenjutsu in Brazil and remains undefeated in Kendo matches in Brazil.

UBALDO : In Kendo maybe, but who gave him Menkyo Kaiden in Kenjutsu?


Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
On the "Instituto Niten" students can learn the techniques from Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, Iaijutusu , Jodo and Jojutsu, from several styles, all of them directly visited by the Senseis from Japan, their Kata and true fighting techniques.

UBALDO : Who were the Kenjutsu masters who visited Brasil and Kishikawa Sensei to teach him their "Kata and True Fighting Techniques"?


Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
In Brazil, other people, from Aikido, are also teaching Jodo and Iaido, but without having the proper experience in real fight strategy.This is the the diference between the "Instituto Niten" students and the students from aikido or just kendo.
We pratice the kata and techniques from the ancient koryu styles, and learn how to apply this techniques in fighting situations, including the two swords techniques, created by Miyamoto Musashi.
The major profit related by our studants, however, are the improvement in concentration, self confidence, pratical application in personal life and stress reduction.
Our doors are open to anyone, in Brazil or worldwide, with desire two learn the samurai sword arts and their applications not only in figthing situation, but also in the everyday life.

UBALDO : To my knowledge, from what I know, all Aikido teachers in Brasil teach AIKIKEN and AIKIJO, to complement their Taijutsu and not to teach Kenjutsu or Jojutsu. The only teacher I know in Brasil that teaches Shindo Muso Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu is Ichitami Shikanai Sensei, as I said before. He has formal training in those arts. Also, allow me to say, I found it in bad taste the way you mentioned Aikido teachers in Brazil, as if they were teaching incorrectly, whereas your teacher was the only one worthy of respect.


Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
Bellow are some pictures from one of the Kishikawa sensei's last year shugyo to Japan, when he visited the Niten Ichi Ryu dojo.
Please click on the image to enlarge.
Wenzel Böhn - Niten Institute Administration
Sidharta Rezende - Niten Institute Website Administrator
http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/pedra%20da%20sucess%E3o%20e%20todos_s.jpg (http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/pedra_da_sucess%E3o.JPG)http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto%20hasso%20web_s.jpg (http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto%20hasso%20web.jpg) http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto_dojo_s.jpg (http://www.niten.org.br/ITCHI/IMAGES/niten-ichi-ryu/foto_dojo.jpg)
Please visit our website (http://www.niten.org.br/) for more information (Portuguese)

UBALDO : Does Kishikawa Sensei have a menkyo kaiden from the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu? Is he allowed to teach in Brazil?
Hope you can make things clear to me.
Best regards

[Usagi]

Originally posted by Sidharta rezend

In Brazil, other people, from Aikido, are also teaching Jodo and Iaido, but without having the proper experience in real fight strategy.



Proper experience in real fight strategy?

That's very interesting...

You mean that, in the niten institute, you have actual fights with live blades, where people die?

Or are you calling waving bamboo blades in order to hit the most protected areas of your friend's bogu (after someone shouted "hajime"), a "proper experience in real fight"? :confused:

Also, as sword fights are not as usual as they once were, aikidoka (and any unarmed martial artist)would have much more oportunity to gain "proper experience in real fight", than someone who practices an art based on anachronistic weapons (just teasing :))

To learn ONE KoRyu you have to train under a SenSei and most of the SenSei are in Japan (some in Australia, a few in USA and some in Europe).

It takes time and consistent training.

You cannot learn various KoRyu by "travels to Japan twice on year for SHUGYO", no matter how hard is your shugyo...

Kishikawa is a kendoka and i've been told that he's very good in KenDo(modern sport).

But this means nothing; after all:"Quem pratica Kenjutsu também pratica kendo, mas quem pratica kendo não conhece kenjutsu."
(sentence on Kishikawa's HP that means "those who pratice kenjutsu also pratice kendo, but those who pratice kendo know nothing of kenjutsu.")

The number 1 kendoka of Brazil means nothing to a KoRyu master; he is just another beginner.

I could even go easier on him, if he provided (in his homepage) who were his SenSei on each of the traditions he masters(and how long and consistent were his training), but he doesn't!

Also, i've been told by one of his students that he teaches ALL the KoRyu together (you learn SuioRyu, ShinToMusoRyu, NiTenIchiRyu, Muso ShinDenRyu, All AT THE SAME TIME!).

And in the Kenjutsu page, the videos show KENDO!
http://www.institutoniten.com.br/KEN/KEN_Kenjutsu1.htm

Sorry pal, that's tooooooo much for me :saw:


P.S.: tell your student that i am anxious for his arrival. I'll do my best to be a good host :)

[FastEd]

Originally posted by Usagi



For those who want to see, go to his home page and use some translating program.



The video sequences and photo's on this website really don't shed much light on the "ability of the instructor" in this organization. They do point out, however, that the webmaster has no idea which art is what, with the wrong videos in each section!

So, could you provide more information on what made you uncomfortable while you were practicing there?

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
The Niten Institute was created in Brazil in 1993 by sensei Jorge Kishikawa and teachs the art of samurai sword and japanese culture to brazilians.

As result and in recognition to his technique and principles, sensei Jorge Kishikawa was nominated official representative for the Niten Ichi Ryu.
...........

I have just been pointed to this thread........

Am I to understand that anyone fortunate to receive personal attention from Soke as a visiting foreigner and put a few pictures on the web automatically becomes a national representative of a an old tradition?

Mt Kishikawa was fortunate enough to receive few hours training over here. I was asked to meet him myself and help but was too busy at the time.

Up to now the ryu has shown extreme kindness to visitors and sensei will give up valuable time to "introduce" read my lips "introduce" them to the ryu and its fundamentals.

All well practiced members of the ryu and do demonstrations are registered members of the Nihon Kobudo Renmei.

From now on to prevent any further incidents the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu will also issue a registration document to its members.

At present like most Japanese none of our members are very computer orientated. But times are changing quickly. Sensei tells me they are going on the internet soon. So I strongly suggest you remove this information from your website as soon as possible.


I have seen this sort of thing before where a certain Englishman had his photograph taken with a well known Okinawa Kobudo teacher and he returned to England an expert.

This resulted in Gordon Warner calling me for info on the said person with rumblings of court action.

People should understand that if we try take advantage like this the dojo doors will close to outsiders.

I am posting this as a result of a conversation with sensei a few minutes ago. Rest assured we don't do "anything" here without asking first.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

Hyoho Niten Ichiryu (Kokura Dojo)

[Sidharta rezend]

Mr Colin And Mr Alcântara

Kishikawa sensei has a writen authorization from Imai Massayuki soke, the 10th headmaster from Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, to teach and representate this ryu in Brazil.
This is what we meant as "official representative".

Sidharta Rezende

[Dan Harden]

Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
Mr Colin And Mr Alcântara

Kishikawa sensei has a writen authorization from Imai Massayuki soke, the 10th headmaster from Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, to teach and representate this ryu in Brazil.
This is what we meant as "oficial representative".

Sidharta Rezende


*************************

Few hours training..........he's now a teacher and representative!

Teaching what?
How to say hello?

Perhaps you don't understand who your yakin with. Why not just ask Mr. Colin what your sensei's teacher (the inheritor of the art) thinks about all this. I am quite sure he has an opinion of a fellow visiting him and then teaching the art somewhere. WOuldn;t it be nice to hear from the source? Think you want to?
I' think Mr. Colin will be more than happy to ask for you-and may be kind enough to give you the answer in private.


Dan

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
Mr Colin And Mr Alcântara
Kishikawa sensei has a writen authorization from Imai Massayuki soke, the 10th headmaster from Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, to teach and representate this ryu in Brazil.
This is what we meant as "official representative".
Sidharta Rezende

YAMANTAKA : Thank you for your answer. It seems we have a problem here. To have an authorization to teach means to have a menkyo kaiden. Does Kishikawa Sensei have one? Our friend, Hyakutake Colin, has stated that Imai Sensei gave no such authorization.
The best possible solution might be for Kishikawa himself, as others have done before, to send us an image of this authorization letter to show everybody that he's saying the truth when he pretends to be Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu's representative in Brazil (something that has already been denied).
Until then, his position is challenged.
With all due respect

[stevemcgee99]

What a situation. To the point where teachers need written credentials. Who's on the governing board for authenticating credentials written by teachers of non-federated ryu?
Bummer that people create fantasy to enhance martial arts training. Language could be more carefully used to distinguish what schools actually do, for instance "learn japanese-style swordsmanship", etc. :nin: "Techniques modeled after ancient shinobi of Japan..." No lying in those statements, eh?
Steve McGee

[okamibushi]

Originally posted by stevemcgee99
What a situation. To the point where teachers need written credentials. Who's on the governing board for authenticating credentials written by teachers of non-federated ryu?
Bummer that people create fantasy to enhance martial arts training. Language could be more carefully used to distinguish what schools actually do, for instance "learn japanese-style swordsmanship", etc. :nin: "Techniques modeled after ancient shinobi of Japan..." No lying in those statements, eh?
Steve McGee

YAMANTAKA : The problem has been created by Mr. Kishikawa himself who stated, in his Home-Page, that he is "THE OFFICIAL REPRESENTATIVE" of a kenjutsu ryu in Brazil, with a "WRITTEN AUTHORIZATION FROM THE SCHOOL IN JAPAN". Kishikawa also does not say he's "learning japanese-style swordsmanship" or "doing techniques MODELED after ancient shinobi(???) of Japan" but clearly stresses he's "TEACHING HYOHO NITEN ICHI RYU AND SUIO RYU, DULY AUTHORIZED BY THE MASTERS IN JAPAN".
By the way, I don't know about federated or non-federated Ryu but the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is a well-known school in Japan and its headmaster, MASAYUKI IMAI, is the only one who can AUTHORIZE school branches outside of Japan. Any school which teaches outside of Japan can only be authorized by him.
Best

[Yamantaka]

sorry, guys and gals...
Yesterday, I lent my computer to a friend, who registered himself at E-Budo. When he left, the computer was still registered in his name. That's why the last message on this thread is mine (YAMANTAKA) but registered as OKAMIBUSHI (my friend).
The problem has been corrected.
Best

[Sidharta rezend]

Dear Mr. Dan Harden

We are sorry to have to dissuade you, but our sensei, Jorge Kishikawa, do not known Mr Colin, as well as the Japanese senseis of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu dont known Mr Colin also.

Sensei Jorge Kishikawa already inquired about mr.Colin, directly with sensei Masayuki Imai, 10th Soke of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu, when of the first message of mr.Alcântara launching a question to sr.Colin.

Sensei Jorge Kishikawa not allowed at that moment that this information was published to not expose unnecessarily the name of sensei Masayuki Imai, 10th Soke of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu, that seems here to be used without any care or discretion, necessary to true Budokas.

Considering the urgency of a reply to don´t expose our sensei's image anymore, we inform that the Soke is unaware of the name Hyakutake Colin. Sensei Jorge Kishikawa also obtained information with sensei Toshio Iwami, Menkyo Kaiden of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu of the Dojo de Kokura (the Dojo which Mr Colin mentions in its message). Sensei Toshio Iwami, Menkyo Kaiden of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu of the Kojura Dojo, affirmed to be unaware of this person, called Hyakutake Colin.

Regards
Sidharta Rezende

[Sidharta rezend]

Mr Hyakutake Colin

Sensei Jorge Kishikawa inquired about you, directly with sensei Masayuki Imai, 10th Soke of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu, when of the first message from mr.Alcântara, who made questions about us to you. Sensei Masayuki Imai, 10th Soke of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu, affirmed not to remember your name.

Sensei Jorge Kishikawa also contacted sensei Toshio Iwami, Menkyo Kaiden of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichi-ryu, Kokura Dojo , to which you says to belong. He said he never heard about you before.

Mr. Colin, your name is not known by the masters of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu... Is "Hyakutake Colin" is your true name? Please, reveal your true identity, so we can direct it to the senseis from Japan. Anyway, all good Budoka knows that it is despicable to make accusations behind a false name. A person who makes false affirmations regarding a member of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu, that possesss the document that qualifies him to teach it the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu, is not worthy to belong to the group of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu (if you really belongs).

Sidharta Rezende

[stevemcgee99]

Woah! This is interesting!
Steve McGee

[hyaku]

Well.........

I should first say that my reason entering this thread was that someone posted what seems to be information on the internet that was not factual. I.e. Having a qualification to teach Hyoho Niten Ichiryu in another country etc.

This without doubt destroys the credibility of a Ryu. Imai Soke is of an extremely good nature to say the least. Practicing with him for a few hours and having delusions of grandeur is far from befitting in any Budo. There are people from Spain, France, UK The head of the Taiwan Kendo Renmei visits often. No one purports to have such qualifications practicing every week let alone for a few hours.

Not satisfied with this you now seek to question my credibility. I would have rather let the matter rest but feel I must answer as the world watches. You have simply twisted facts and names to try and discredit me. I would hasten to remind you that this is Ebudo. Not Melrose Place. Your last post was disagreeable to say the least.

Will the real Mr. Colin stand up?

I am afraid he won't because there is no such person and I have never used that name. Mr. Alkantara had used it in this thread and that’s where you got it from not me!

I am well aware that a confused phone calls were made over here. I received a call after that telling me what was said. The first call must have been rather difficult hence the second one to Kokura. Your own photos clearly show Soke's hearing aid. He doesnt talk on the phone! His wife speaks for him.

My full name is... Colin George William Hyakutake-Watkin. Hyakutake as I am a yoshi (adopted into a Japanese family)

Among my own qualifications is a Menkyo Kaiden of another ryu, various Yudansha grades in Kendo, Iaido, Battojutsu and a director of the Nippon Todo Renmei all in the name of Hyakutake. This is why I use the name on the forum. The name that everybody is familiar with at this time in connection to Budo. It is my own name! My full name is a little bit long winded to write every time.

If you would have cared to check out my web pages or did a search in Google you would have found my full name plastered all over the place. You also will notice my site simply gives "Information" on the ryu. Its has no mention of my Budo/educational qualifications or positions. It does not even mention Iwami Sensei holding Menkyo Kaiden. This is purely intentional. You should read the site and take a hint from it.

As Imai Sensei and Iwami Sensei knew me well before I had an adopted name when we used to meet at embu and they use my old name. Generally they call me Sensei. Affectionately as “Watochan”

On the subject of names is yours really Buddha? Sidharta is the Indian name for Buddha isn't it?

I am not a member of the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu? Well I will leave the world to judge that one too.

In the near future I will be posting the broadcast time of an NHK TV documentary on Musashi. No doubt you will see me lurking about somewhere on the TV screen either practicing in the dojo or performing a Niten Ichiryu embu.

Or you could ask the Nihon Kobudo Renmei. They have me listed as a member of the ryu.

This is the first time I have been dragged into a such a disagreement purely out of my own concern in protecting the image of a ryu.

I have copied the contents of the letters stating that Mr. Kishikawa is authorized to teach and will give them to Sensei should he care to deny this fact at some later date. I hear he will be visiting Japan again for another few hours shugyo in May.

I would appreciate any further correspondence be made privately as the inner workings of the ryu are really not for a public discussion.

If you had not published this misleading information on your web pages in the first place it would not have become a cause for concern and discussion would it?

Finally. As Mr. Alcantara asked, I would myself like to see a copy of this authorization posted on your web site with the “Kinen shashin” That is a Japanese word for commemoration photographs. I have some taken with famous Sumo Rikishi. Does that mean I am now a Yokozuna?

Get your facts straight! Either do that or we should move you to the Bad Budo section. :nono:

As always Hyakutake Colin (Watkin, George William, Whatever)


P.s. Sorry Mr McGee. I don't find it interesting.

[Yamantaka]

To all people here,

Hyakutake Colin Watkin is well known and respected in E-Budo. Mr. Sidharta Rezende (as representative of Mr. Kishikawa) also deserves our respect in principle.
But we have a serious problem here : we have two completely diverging statements about Mr. Kishikawa's supposed official representation of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. Someone is not telling the truth : either Mr. Hyakutake Colin Watkin or Mr. Kishikawa.
Since this is no longer a brazilian problem but is exposed to the world through E-Budo, I sincerely believe the only way to clear things and avoid suspicions will be for Mr. Kishikawa to place here, for all to see, his letter of authorization from Imai Sensei.
That will end definitely any doubts about this matter, provoked by Mr. Rezende's initial post.
With all due respect
Ubaldo Alcantara

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hyaku
[B]I have copied the contents of the letters stating that Mr. Kishikawa is authorized to teach and will give them to Sensei should he care to deny this fact at some later date. I hear he will be visiting Japan again for another few hours shugyo in May.

I would appreciate any further correspondence be made privately as the inner workings of the ryu are really not for a public discussion.

If you had not published this misleading information on your web pages in the first place it would not have become a cause for concern and discussion would it?

Finally. As Mr. Alcantara asked, I would myself like to see a copy of this authorization posted on your web site with the “Kinen shashin” That is a Japanese word for commemoration photographs. I have some taken with famous Sumo Rikishi. Does that mean I am now a Yokozuna?

Get your facts straight! Either do that or we should move you to the Bad Budo section. :nono:

As always Hyakutake Colin (Watkin, George William, Whatever)[END QUOTE]

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by stevemcgee99
What a situation. To the point where teachers need written credentials. Who's on the governing board for authenticating credentials written by teachers of non-federated ryu?
Steve McGee

YAMANTAKA : "Teachers" do not need "credentials"...Anyone can create an art and teach it, without any certificate, as Mr. Kishikawa has done before, in Brazil, when he created "SHINKENDO" and "MENTAL IAI". Good or bad (I don't know), they were his creations and he was the only person responsible for them.
But when it is stated that he teaches TWO ryuha, "with written authorization from the masters in Japan", the problem is quite another. Those are recognized schools and their headmasters are the only ones authorized to give credencials and authorizations.
Since that was a public statement, until those credentials are presented, people should be, as Usagi has stated, "afraid..."
In Budo

[Chidokan]

Hey Colin, that visit to Japan to stay in your house must have been all a dream.. wait a minute, why am I talking to a fictitious person?
I take it this guy has the same 'authorisation' as Colin and Martin over here in the U.K., i.e. keep practising and keep coming back for more, perhaps we have a case of misunderstanding by the website maker?
p.s. could I pop and see Imai sensei when I'm over in May, I could do with a menkyo kaiden or two...please have them written out ready to save time in the dojo. :laugh:

thanks in advance , Tim;)

[Yamantaka]

Dear friends,

Considering the statements on Kishikawa Sensei's Home-Page and on Niten Institute's representative, Sidartha Rezende e-mail to this Forum, does anyone here have a contact with SUIO RYU's representatives in Japan to confirm if Jorge Kishikawa is the official representative of Suio Ryu in Brazil?
Trying to make things clear

[Wenzel Bohm]

It's necessary the truth comes to light.

On the date when Mr.Colin sent his first reply to Mr. Alcântara, declaring: : "I am posting this as a result of a conversation with sensei a few minutes ago",, sensei Masayuki Imai, Soke of the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu, was abroad and not reacheable. Any true member of the Niten-Ichiryu would know this fact. Sensei already returned from his trip, and confirmed that there was no conversation regarding sensei Jorge Kishikawa with Mr.Watkin at all, as well as all the other Japanese senseis of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu confirmed nothing to know regarding Mr. Watkin's accusations against sensei Jorge Kishikawa in this forum, accusations mentioning that sensei Jorge Kishikawa does not have authorization to teach the art of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu.

It is regrettable that on the Internet it is so easy to lie, to calumniate the others, to cause panic in innocents and damage the Budo. Sensei Kishikawa, who grow up in the Japanese tradition, and whose entire family, mother, father, brother, are in the Way, would never commit such lack. Sensei Jorge Kishikawa, besides having a true experience, that comes since his childhood, with his father, member of the Direction of the Brazilian Federation of Kendo and member of the Center of Studies of the Hagakure in Japan, has titles in the Kendo, Iaido, Jodo, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and Jojutsu. His character is well known by his pupils, disciples and his masters of Iaido, Jodo, Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaijutsu and Jojutsu in Japan.
It is understandable that many can be impressed with the multiple abilities of our sensei, but that's why he's considered unique in the world.
However, this is not something impossible, therefore in the same way, Miyamoto Musashi dominated with dexterity diverse arts, as the Art of the Strategy, the Sword, the Calligraphy and the Painting. People who criticize sensei Jorge Kishikawa are as the ones that had attacked Miyamoto Musashi at his time. Although our sensei do not have the pretension of becoming a Musashi, the multiple abilities of sensei Jorge Kishikawa are widely recognized by sensei Imai and his higher disciples, as well as other senseis, of other styles, who know the multiplicity of the knowledge of sensei Jorge Kishikawa. They really understand what is the "Way". (DO).
We lament the fact of being disillusioning many people, who had believed on Mr.Colin (Watkin) and have been deceived by him, during who knows how long, by the image he divulged, mainly by means of the Internet, a way that still is seen with mistrust by many Japanese sensei, since people must not necessary indentify themselfes and since there is still few control of the authorities on foreign sites over what is said about Japan.
Although we follow the Japanese style of presentation in our site, following the necessary discretion and elegance to any practitioner of the Budo, we'll be, to the occidental fashion, soon, publishing in our site all the titles of sensei Jorge Kishikawa to clarify the doubts created in the minds of the participants of the forum, doubts created by individuals who are calumniators and bad intentioned.

It is sorrowful that we must be sending these facts to the Japanese sensei, causing a bad impression of the practice of the Budo by westerns, through the conduct of Mr.Watkin, who is a mere eventual practitioner, and has no intimate with the Sohke of the style, to assume this kind of attitude he took in relation to sensei Jorge Kishikawa, a proven member of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu.

We express our repudiation to those who are making thoughtless questions in this forum, to sensei Jorge Kishikawa: and a budoka advice: "Get up from your computer and come to the real world, train with tenacity, and only then, if you still have some doubt, come and watch a training of the sensei, so you can afterwards keep silent forever."

Wenzel Böhm - Niten Institute Administration

[pgsmith]

It is regrettable that on the Internet it is so easy to lie, to calumniate the others, to cause panic in innocents and damage the Budo
That is very true Mr. Bohm. How do we know that this is not what you and Mr. Kishikawa are doing? You have offered up many words and lots of condemnation and bad mouthing of others, but you have still not offered anything that proves your statements. It should be a very simple matter to offer proofs of Mr. Kishikawa's claims. You are the second person from your dojo that has come here saying that we are wrong for questioning Mr. Kishikawa and we should be ashamed of ourselves. However you are also the second person to do this without offering anything to substantiate these claims. If you were to offer significant proofs when making such lofty claims, this would never have become an issue. Your own words describe the situation perfectly Mr. Bohm, how do you propose rectifying this situation?

[Sidharta rezend]

To all members of this forum:

Sensei Jorge Kishikawa determined me to withdraw immediately from this forum, in favour of the name of the Niten Institute -Japanese Sword Study Center, in favour of the name of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu and the name of entire Budo. Anyway, as my colleague Wenzel already affirmed, we will publish in our site all the official information regarding sensei Jorge Kishikawa, who until today had the worthy precaution not to seem exhibitionist, and never displayed his official documents in public, accurately as done when the swords were used in Japan, by the true samurais.

As sensei Jorge Kishikawa always says:
"There are three things that cannot be taken back:
The rock after thrown,
the time after past,
the word after pronounced."

Conscientious of all my words pronounced in this forum, I say farewell to all, in the hope everybody who have pronounced their words in this forum, also are conscientious of the consequences.

Sidharta Rezende

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Sidharta rezend
To all members of this forum:

Sensei Jorge Kishikawa determined me to withdraw immediately from this forum, in favour of the name of the Niten Institute -Japanese Sword Study Center, in favour of the name of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu and the name of entire Budo. Anyway, as my colleague Wenzel already affirmed, we will publish in our site all the official information regarding sensei Jorge Kishikawa, who until today had the worthy precaution not to seem exhibitionist, and never displayed his official documents in public, accurately as done when the swords were used in Japan, by the true samurais.
Conscientious of all my words pronounced in this forum, I say farewell to all, in the hope everybody who have pronounced their words in this forum, also are conscientious of the consequences.
Sidharta Rezende

YAMANTAKA : Dear friends,

It's a pity that this Forum had to be exposed to so much slandering and washing of dirty laundry. The Niten Institute of Brazil first made an attack on aikidoka, sustaining that their teacher, Jorge Kishikawa Sensei, was the only one on Brazil to teach sword arts (Niten Ichi Ryu and Suio Ryu) "authorized by the masters in Japan". That brought forth reasonable questions on the authenticity of that claim, not "thoughtless questions", as Mr. Bohm has stated. (Agressive behavior seems to be common among Niten Institute members...)
Hyakutake Colin Watkin of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu questioned
their affirmations, stating that the Ryu had no representatives outside of Japan. Proofs were asked of the Niten Institute.
The Niten Institute administrators came forth, slandering Mr. Watkin's reputation, claiming he was lying and, presenting no proofs, they retreated from this Forum, by command of their Sensei.
For my part, what I can tell about Mr. Kishikawa is the following:
a) Throughout all his life, he was involved with Kendo and, according with many people, he's an excepcional kendoka and not just on Brazil (it seems he won 3rd place in a juvenile world competition and also as a team champion);
b) I believe he got some rank in Iai, but I'm not sure;
c) About 10 years ago, he began to create some variations on Kendo, such as the KIR (Kendo Intensive Recuperation) Method and the Shinkendo. He created also something called Mental Iai. He always claimed to teach "Kendo for brazilians" as if brazilians were incapable of training with japanese;
d) About 5 years ago, he began to display an interest in Kenjutsu, in a diffuse way, never specifiying what style of Kenjutsu and with whom he was studying (if he was...);
e) in the last two years, he began to talk openly about Niten Ichi Ryu (sic) and Suio Ryu, as "the styles of Musashi and Lone Wolf", coming finally to state that he was their representative in Brazil and South America.
He has great influence in Brazil, notably in São Paulo, and lately has been sending his students to many states, to give seminars on Kenjutsu. In one of those seminars, my son was in attendance and participated in KENDO training and watched some badly demonstrated Kata, pretended to be of Niten and Suio Ryu, but presenting movements ressembling also Kendo.
His site is very poor and badly written,with many wrong informations, being extremely vague about Mr. Kishikawa and his titles. By the way, the Niten Institute confirms that, when they said that soon the site will contain more information about Mr. Kishikawa.
It's a pity that, running away, they left Mr. Watkin's honor blemished. But I think their attitude speaks for itself. :nono:
And, by the way, it's quite easy to put the Ryu's name on the web and then, when questioned, retreat, closing the dialogue and alleging that "true samurai don't do that":rolleyes: I'd say that seems a lack of arguments.
Respectfully

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Wenzel Bohm
- Niten Institute Administration
[B]It's necessary the truth comes to light.

You people are doing it again aren't you. Your are twisting words and conversations to suit your own statements and worst of all you still continue to air this on the internet

[QUOTE]
On the date when Mr.Colin sent his first reply to Mr. Alcântara, declaring: : "I am posting this as a result of a conversation with sensei a few minutes ago",, sensei Masayuki Imai, Soke of the Hyoho Niten Ichiryu, was abroad and not reacheable.

Thanks for quoting me. I said "sensei" thats Iwami sensei not Imai Soke.

[QUOTE]
Any true member of the Niten-Ichiryu would know this fact.

Any true member would know that we all live over one hundred kilometers apart and just get together a few times a week. Some of us dont get home until one in the morning after a practice. Nobody is exactly in close personal touch all the time. We don't have to get permission from each other to leave our houses.

[QUOTE]
Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu confirmed nothing to know regarding Mr. Watkin's accusations against sensei Jorge Kishikawa in this forum, accusations mentioning that sensei Jorge Kishikawa does not have authorization to teach the art of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu.

As I have already told you. They are not "on" the internet. Thats what concerned me. They don't speak English or Portugese either and have no idea what claims people make and what is being said. Hence my cause for concern as a member.

[QUOTE]
Miyamoto Musashi dominated with dexterity diverse arts, as the Art of the Strategy, the Sword, the Calligraphy and the Painting. People who criticize sensei Jorge Kishikawa are as the ones that had attacked Miyamoto Musashi at his time. Although our sensei do not have the pretension of becoming a Musashi, the multiple abilities of sensei Jorge Kishikawa are widely recognized by sensei Imai and his higher disciples, as well as other senseis, of other styles, who know the multiplicity of the knowledge of sensei Jorge Kishikawa. They really understand what is the "Way". (DO).

Oh come on do me favor. The mere mention of emulating Musashi is a bit over the top isnt it?

[QUOTE]
Although we follow the Japanese style of presentation in our site, following the necessary discretion and elegance to any practitioner of the Budo, we'll be, to the occidental fashion, soon, publishing in our site all the titles of sensei Jorge Kishikawa to clarify the doubts created in the minds of the participants of the forum, doubts created by individuals who are calumniators and bad intentioned.

The sooner the better.

[QUOTE]
It is sorrowful that we must be sending these facts to the Japanese sensei, causing a bad impression of the practice of the Budo by westerns, through the conduct of Mr.Watkin, who is a mere eventual practitioner, and has no intimate with the Sohke of the style, to assume this kind of attitude he took in relation to sensei Jorge Kishikawa, a proven member of the Hyoho-Niten-Ichiryu.

Thanks again for the quote. "A mere eventual practitioner". "Higher disciples"where the hell did you get that one from? This is bordering on the rediculous. Why dont you edit your photos and put a few halos on everybody?

"A mere eventual practitioner" The thing is so is everybody else. No one in the Niten Ichiryu is up there a on a pedestal. We are just a bunch of guys, teachers, firemen, carpenter etc that just get together from over hundreds of kilometers a few times a week to practice. Some of us don't get back home until one in the morning. No authorization, no !!!!!!!!! no claims to fame, no frills, no belts etc.

Do you understand this principle? Musashi's strategy based on simplicity and naturalness. It is the fact that you presume that we have sort of samurai heirarchy is where you make your mistake.

If you wish to put Mr Kishikawa on a pedestal thats fine by me.

Finally (I hope) Don't quote "DO" to me. Niten Ichiryu is "seiho"

Now for the last time will you take this damn converation off the forum and into emails if you wish to continue twisting facts.

Please consider your own Mr Kishikawa's position. Its costing him a fortune in International telephone calls every time you post some rediculous comment.

Hyakutake Colin.

[Chidokan]

Id like to repeat the question I spotted farther up, anyone know of Suio ryu still being practised in Japan, or is it one of those 'made up' ones just for the movies? Yup, I just love that series, very silly! I should have had a pram like that for my little lad(you never know when you might need it)!

Tim

Colin, you should tear up those photos of Imai sensei and yourself, they dont exist you know... ( and the tv show is also a figment of your imagination, you superimposed yourself into a live recording, admit it!)

[rbrown]

Don't have any real information, however if you go to the seminar announcement section and go back to a post on 4 January by Brian Stokes he mentions an upcoming seminar the end of April with Katsuse Soke the 15th Headmaster of Suio Ryu.
If I was smart enough I'd post a link but since I'm not it's right here on E-Budo in the Seminar section.
You might be able to get more info from Mr. Stokes, his email address is posted.

Richard Brown

[Rennis]

Id like to repeat the question I spotted farther up, anyone know of Suio ryu still being practised in Japan, or is it one of those 'made up' ones just for the movies?


Yes Suio ryu is still practiced in Japan.

Best regards,

Rennis Buchner

[FreeBlade]

Usagi:

Sorry pal, that's tooooooo much for me :saw:

Freeblade:Be real,sir. Give us more respect,the real martial arts students. Everybody knows you...

Funny cartoons...The real and old Alcântara...Time past and people don't change...

Are you trainning hard???By the way,are you trainning Kendo or Kenjutsu???
And daddy (paínho), trainning hard, too???

[Usagi]

Yeah, i don't change :)

But that's not your case, since i've never talked to any "freeblade" or Rafael Shimamoto and you are an extremely new member (who doesn't clearly identify himself...)

Diferent from you, in my profile is stated my art and where am i from.

A "real martial arts student" should naturally present his art to the list...

And if you know me "that well" you are invited to come and see "how hard" am i training (as well as what)...

Get a life...

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by FreeBlade
Usagi:
Freeblade:Be real,sir. Give us more respect,the real martial arts students. Everybody knows you...
Funny cartoons...The real and old Alcântara...Time past and people don't change...
Are you trainning hard???By the way,are you trainning Kendo or Kenjutsu???
And daddy (paínho), trainning hard, too???

YAMANTAKA : Mr. Freeblade,
You are new to E-Budo. Please, do not send messages with supposed personal jokes. You're excluding everyone else.
We do not know you but you seem to know much about us...
Do not ask what we do, say what art do you practice and with WHOM.
If you are a student of Mr. Kishikawa, remember that, up to now, he hasn't answered any of our questions. Instead of trying to use the "argument ad hominem", answer them if you can. Speaking ill of critics is not answering the questions. Perhaps you try to joke and attack others because you have no answers, so it's easier to try to disqualify the critics.
But I forget...Mr. Kishikawa asked EVERYONE to withdrew from E-Budo (perhaps because he had no answers to our questioning...). Mr. Rezende and Mr. Bohm did just that. But you continue, in disregard of your master's request?
Since you are not serious, I'll try to answer you no more. Go back to your (im)pure blade teacher (if you're Kishikawa's lackey) and keep dreaming you're a real martial art student. To each his own...
Sorry to everybody else for this nonsense post from someone who calls himself FREEBLADE but does not state which art he does practice nor who is his teacher... :nono:

[FreeBlade]

Yeah, i don't change

Alcântara...Wake up.
You're a CPU KID...A MAster of Words...
Are you trainning Kendo or Kenjutsu???
Because if I don't play football,I don't
talk about football...DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME,KID?

Please,don't shame your "Cohais"...

Yes.I'm a new member on this wonderfull site!

Because , some friend said : "Alcântara talks
s.... about some Sword School,see it..."

And BINGO!!!There is the PrettyBoy...

Alcântara...Who's your master?

Are you trainning Kendo or Kenjutsu???

Some day...Would you like get a clean fight whit
(like you "bad taste" said)bamboo sticks and BOGU?

WHO'S YOUR MASTER???

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by FreeBlade
Alcântara...Wake up.
You're a CPU KID...A MAster of Words...
DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME,KID?
Because , some friend said : "Alcântara talks
s.... about some Sword School,see it..."
And BINGO!!!There is the PrettyBoy...
Some day...Would you like get a clean fight whit
(like you "bad taste" said)bamboo sticks and BOGU?


YAMANTAKA : As I said before, I ask everybody to forgive this crazy rant from another brazilian, apparently trying with desesperation to defend his "master".
I discuss problems not personal attacks. either on me, Hyakutake Colin or Usagi. My profile is here for all to see, different from FREEBLADE, whose profile gives little information. For my part, I'm out of this dumb discussion. I hope FREEBLADE knows also when to stop. E-Budo is no place for dumb discussions.
Sorry again and, by the way, the problems go unanswered. Kishikawa's page is still unchanged and his "official" certificates are still not there for all to see. :cool: And FREEBLADE is not obeying his "master's" recomendation to leave E-Budo. Isn't that strange? :confused:
Best

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by rbrown
Don't have any real information (but) Brian Stokes mentions an upcoming seminar the end of April with Katsuse Soke the 15th Headmaster of Suio Ryu.
You might be able to get more info from Mr. Stokes, his email address is posted.
Richard Brown

YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Richard! I've already made contact with Mr. Stokes. Things are getting even more interesting...
Best

[FreeBlade]

strange?

Boa tarde,senhores!

There's no way to agreed with Kishikawa Sensei because he's not my master.Simple like that...
Please,"masters of martial arts",how innocents you are...Maybe is time to see Sun Tzu.
I'm Kendo/Iaido student,with heart.And i know mr.Renato Alcântara."Força Renato,tente lembrar!".I will stay in the shadows.The best way to speak the true about YOU,NO CLASS BOY!!!

Tell everybody...Why you were not accept in a Classical Aikido Family in Brazil,few years ago???

This is my first step in true direction...
I told you Renato

[Yamantaka]

My most sincere thanks to Ivan and Chuck from Aikido-L for calling my attention to this delightful text that is a good answer to what is happening here :

"The Art of Flaming

The Art of Flaming requires much consideration and skill. An artful and joyful flame, that brings much happiness to the readership is rare nowadays. That's because most people flame without a clue about how to do it right. They are like elephants walking through a flower-bed. Below, I outline few of the rules that make a flamer's career long and fruitful. I hope to be of use to yo'all.

1. Don't give it personal

That is the first and the most important rule. Make it personal means that when you flame a person, you mean particular her. You concentrate on personal traits, characteristics and individual thoughts and ideas. That's bad. That's distasteful. That's ineffective. Think of that person as someone anonymous, someone without a name, someone that doesn't really exist. Think of her as a virtual representative of a whole group of other people. Then flame!

Now, when you flame, you're flaming those particular thoughts and ideas and not her in specific. Thus, your flame is much stronger and much potent, now that it is directed to a much large number of people (those who share her thoughts and ideas). If you flame her, you only flame her. If you flame her ideas, you flame everyone who shares those ideas. As a good flamer, you should try to accomplish the most with the least. Thus, rather than concentrating on Nancy Clark, then on Joe Blow, then on Mickie Hart etc.... and lose precious time and resources, you simply flame Nancy Clark's ideas and by extension you flame also Joe Blow and Mickie Hart and whoever else. See, that's the art in it!

The positive in that approach is that now you're arguing matters of principle. You're discussing the subject at hand. You're actually on topic. The fact that Nancy Clark is a fat, st00pid b!+ch (as it may happens) is very much irrelevant to the fact that she maybe an Aiki-fruity. So, when you flame her, don't say - you, st00pid, fat Nancy! you, fruitie!

No. That's bad. That doesn't cut it. You flame all the fruities at once and thus you achieve maximum effect. But there surely are aiki-fruities who aren't fat, who aren't dumb and who aren't b!+ches. Thus, you can't allow yourself to be restricted to particular traits. You flame on principle and you flame on topic. That means, you clearly realize that Nancy ain't got nothing to do with it. If it isn't Nancy, it would be Joe and if isn't Joe, it would be Mickie. You flame neither in specific. But you flame all of 'em at once!

The negative of that approach is that you make a lot of enemies. Hence, many weak souls that lack honor and principle flame exclusively on personal grounds. Thus, they avoid pissing off everyone else, while still defending their views. What they seem to be saying is: even though I don't share these particular views and ideas, I would flame only Nancy since I like to be friends with everyone else. That's bu!!sh!t. An honest, respecting herself flamer would never do this. You stick to principles and you defend a cause. That means, you flame thoughts and ideas and those who carry them should feel free to get pissed.

One shall NOT flame when:

1. The opponent is too dumb or too helpless or too new to know any better. In this instances flaming shows poor judgment skills and disregard to your lesser gifted brothers and sisters. It's just wasting precious energy on unworthy person. Being the object of a flame should be a privilege one needs to earn! I often hear the comments: blah-blah "... even though I know I will be flamed [by Ivan]..." blah-blah. The dumb@ss doesn't realize that she needs to work on the right to be flamed and that just because she says some idiotic thing, it doesn't mean that anyone will pay attention to her. People just love to give themselves undue credit.

2. The opponent is trying to draw you into a "flame war". Flame wars are for idiots. There's no art, no skill and no thought in it - just a bunch of idiots calling each other names. You don't want to be associated with idiots. Thus, if a flame turns into a "flame war", (Ki Wars, Ukemi Wars, etc.)avoid that thread altogether. Throwing insults (often of personal nature) at each other is very bad manners and you wanna stay as far away from this thing as possible. Flame wars draw in people who have no control. And lemme tell you, the name of the game is CONTROL!

3. One is constipated, in her period, has recently had a car accident, had drunk more than two six-packs (without the benefit of any food intake), has his underwear bunched up in the crack or is otherwise pissed off and undisposed. In these precarious conditions, one has poor judgments and clouded mind. Flaming requires pure heart, clear mind and cheerful disposition. Any negative emotions spoil the flame and turn it into some kind of a grudge contest or even worse, a flame war.

4. You have achieved supreme flame mastery. That is, you don't flame when silence can be actually constructed as a flame. It is the flame_of_no-flame, which is the ultimate flame. You think I'm kidding, but I'm not. Sometimes, when you're really, really good, people get more pissed at you (feeling being flamed) simply because you don't reply. :-)) (I remember receiving an extremely emotionally charged e-mail demanding to know how come I don't respond to him and what's that all about. I was very amused, needless to say.) That's the ultimate! When you're able to flame without actually flaming, you're a true master. When you're a true master, the activity itself looses any meaning and brings little joy. I mean, you're so good at it that simply the thought of being able to flame the opponent to ashes gives you the satisfaction your soul needs and ...you just refrain from flaming. Most people should shy away from number four though, since very few are blessed with mastery.

If you observe these four simple rules, you'll never flame inappropriately. Otherwise, the rule of thumb is: flame as often as possible!"

Ivan was really fantastic! Sorry he left the Aikido-L List. He was a really good flamer, unlike some people...:rolleyes:
Best regards to all

[FreeBlade]

flame as often as possible!"

Severino Sales...
Wagner Bull...
Ono sensei...Esse não deu , né?

Ok,Alcântara!
Do you "really"have a sensei?
Afffff.......
Everybody will see your dark soul,kid!

For all nice people who love martial arts
and this wonderfull Forum, I'm sorry .I'm
really sorry about it.

Alcântara,are trainning Kendo or Kenjutsu???

Do you wanna try to stay inside BOGU 3 hours
no stop???

Can you take it???

[FreeBlade]

aikijiujiteiro

AIKIJIUJITEIRO...

I find it in your profile.
Bad taste,kid!

My friends will not bilieve it.A new
word in the Martial Arts World...

AIKIJIUJITEIRO...

It's sound like a tropical juice...
ORANGEBANANA , BANANALEMON , etc

[pgsmith]

OK Mr. Shimamoto,
What exactly is your purpose here? You don't seem to have anything to contribute except childish insults and invective. I also noticed that you didn't bother to fill in your own profile, perhaps an attempt to be as anonymous as possible? If you have something positive to contribute to the message forum then by all means please contribute. If not then please SHUT UP!

Thank you! :saw:

[Charlie Kondek]

Yeah, come on, man. Yamantaka's been around here for a while, is always polite and tries to be helpful. You've been nothing but antagonistic since you signed on here. Got anything productive to say or not?

[hyaku]

Originally posted by FreeBlade

Do you wanna try to stay inside BOGU 3 hours
no stop???

Can you take it???

Mr Shimamoto, I see you have a Japanese name. Do you think the above comments would be the norm in a Japanese Kendo Dojo? Three hours in Bogu is hardly anything to brag about. Its just about as common as going to the toilet every day. Now if you had been made to do kakari geiko wearing no Bogu you might have something to talk about. Come to my dojo and I can arrange this for you

Your comments point to the fact that you perhaps a junior high school kid?

With these comments and others in this thread, is this the kind of attitude that we should expect in general from Brazilian Kendoka?

I hope not. If so its back to the drawing board! A shame to have learned so much and at the same time completely missed the point.

The board is generally lighthearted but at the same time serious
place for beginers and more experienced Budoka. You obviously did not read or were unable to understand the comments on flaming.

You have to realize that as long as people make claims that are questionable it is a human trait that we question them. I dont believe there was any question of Yamantaka's credentials?

Please go and play elsewhere.

Hyakutake Colin

P.s. It's no so much wearing the Bogu for three hours as what you actually do when you are wearing it.

[Enfield]

Originally posted by FreeBlade
[BDo you wanna try to stay inside BOGU 3 hours no stop??? Can you take it??? [/B]

I wonder if the utterer of the phrase, "Whoever holds a shinai is a friend of mine," ever met people like this. Besides making yourself out to be an unknowledgeable ass, you are reflecting poorly on kendoka everywhere. If you have something worthwhile to contribute, please do so civilly. If you don't have anything to contribute, don't contribute anything.

Now, what was this thread actually about again?

- Kent Enfield

[Ben Bartlett]

P.s. It's no so much wearing the Bogu for three hours as what you actually do when you are wearing it.

So you mean the three hours I just spent on the couch watching TV while wearing bogu didn't count? Darn. And here I was going to come on and brag about my great accomplishment. ;)

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ben Bartlett

So you mean the three hours I just spent on the couch watching TV while wearing bogu didn't count? Darn. And here I was going to come on and brag about my great accomplishment. ;) QUOTE]

Best not to bathe in it though. Bee keepers could use it if they fix a bit of mesh on the mengane. Could wear it riding the bike as long as you dont turn too may corners.

Any other ideas?

Hyakutake Colin

[Kolschey]

Originally posted by hyaku


Any other ideas?

Hyakutake Colin [/B]

Considering how much I sweat when I wear Bogu, it might make an excellent accessory to realy maximise an aerobics workout...
Extreme Sports? "OOOhh! A face plant off the ramp!..good thing he was wearing his birdcage...that would have been an orthodontist's dream for sure!"...
Make a distinctive first impression at your child's next parent-teacher conference...
"Come on now kitty, the nice man in the white coat says you have to take this pill..." :D

[Usagi]

Originally posted by Enfield

Now, what was this thread actually about again?

- Kent Enfield

Good point!

My AiKiDo training, for most of it, was without the presence of a SenSei.

We had a group of friends who would gather to train and travel to other states to join seminars.

We were 15, but only 5 remained.

Since march 97 i left that group (personal divergencies) and have been on my own.

From that point on i intensified my studies and started to travel more oftenly and became more responsable for my actions and training.

I don't feel comfortable to rate my skills, but ... it worked for me(but it was in AiKiDo; i personally think that it would be impossible to learn a KoRyu in this fashion).

From my personal experience, to train without the guidance of a SenSei (a good one!) is extremely frustrating and obviously not something i would recomend.

You have no one to ask questions, no one to show how the techniques "should look like", no one to blame when a technique doesn't work and no one to "certify" how good you are.

It's like rediscovering the fire, the wheel and then trying to use this knowledge to build a car.

It was said in an e-list that the studant is like a blind man, who needs the teacher to "guide" him.

Well, if you are truly blind, you have no way of making sure that your guide is really able to see...you may end up following another blind guy towards a pit or a volcano! :)

It is a leap of faith...

"Better 5 years looking for the right teacher than 5 years training with the wrong one..."

After ten years studying AiKiDo (mostly on my own) i feel myself able to choose a SenSei; unfortunately there is none in my state and i don't believe in "long distance relashionships". :)

So, returning to the original question posted by Rounin:

If there is no Sword master near Rounin's area and he sincerely wishes to learn a KoRyu, what can he do?

How can he learn enough of the basics in order to avoid fake masters?

What basics can he forge on his own and how?

Any thoughts?

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by hyaku
The board is generally lighthearted but at the same time serious
place for beginers and more experienced Budoka.
Hyakutake Colin

YAMANTAKA : I couldn't say it better! And thanks to all who defended E-Budo's seriousness against people with bad manners...:smash:
Best regards to all

[FreeBlade]

junior high school kid?

HYAKU

i live inside my bogu...3 hard practices by day...
You're right...I'm younger and faster than you...
I don't know you sir.Why are you talking with me???

My problem is Alcântara!

sayounara

FREEBLADE

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FreeBlade

HYAKU

i live inside my bogu...3 hard practices by day...
You're right...I'm younger and faster than you..

I don't know you sir.Why are you talking with me???
..........

Because this is Ebudo?

Sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you meant wearing bogu "continuously" for three hours. That's what most Kendo dojos will be doing today. It's Saturday though Maybe four hours?

I'm sure your fast. Most young Kendoka are until they learn that its not how fast you move as when you move that is important.

As an experienced Kendoka I am sure you will have learned that the mokuteki of Kendo enthusiasts changes with age.

Hyakutake Colin

[Dan Harden]

Guys
I have no Iron in the forge here-but why are you giving these people a forum for their views?
It is quite obvious what they are made of. Let the thread-and them die off.
Kent and Ben
Are they Joshua under a different name?

They're a comedy act on their own-there is no discussion to be had


Cheers
Dan

[FreeBlade]

Hyakutake Colin

I can see a good and true person inside your
words(sorry about my english,sir).
I'm young,brave and pure like a sakura...I really
love our art with all my heart and my soul,sir!

The point is:Alcântara's family did something wrong!
They attacked a brazilian sensei(iai/kendo/kenjutsu),who
made a nice work in our country.

I'm trainning with other sensei,other Dojo,but i have
to protect the sword,understand my feeling,sir?
I don't know Kishikawa sensei,only your work near brazilian people.
"Alcântara" did not know that sensei, don't practice iai,kendo,
kenjutsu,etc..."if I don't know football,I don't talk about
football."Simple like that,sir!Am I wrong???

I knew Usagi few years ago when I starting my Aikido trainning.
(I stoped aikido,2 years ago)
But he's "GIRI" doubt...Giri with sensei...Giri with the art...
Giri with the WAY...Something wrong...

Egocentric.That's the point!

Please,sir.Take care with the battlefield side you choice,sir!
The distance blocks the true!I'm worry about you sir,cause I study
your profile and saw I nice person.But "the distance blocks the true!I'm sorry about the circunstancies I Know you,sir!

By the way...Thank you to invited me to your Dojo.It's too much
honnor and a great dream!

Sir,I don't wanna talk about Alcântara with you anymore,sir!
Negative things!

Onegaishimassu...Let's talk about the "dream"...The Japanese
Sword...

Sayounara

FREEBLADE

[Charlie Kondek]

Rafael, forgive me for posting this publically, instead of privately messaging you, but it's something I think we should make clear. English isn't your first language, and that's okay, we still get what you're saying. I should point out, however, so that Hyaku-sensei doesn't have to, that when you address Mr. Hyakutake, you are addressing a high-ranking kendo-ka, a sensei. Mr. Hyakutake is a sensei of both kendo and certain types of kenjutsu. If you were not a kendo student, that would only mean that you should give him the respect of a teacher of any art. But because you are a kendo-ka you should give him respect as if he were YOUR teacher, because wherever you go in the world, when you meet other kendo-ka, they are your brothers, and when you meet other kendo sensei, they are YOUR sensei.

That said, you are being a little overly familiar with a sensei. I'm sure you didn't realize the situation. Do you see what I mean?

I should also point out that maybe you don't realize it, but your tone towards Alcantara is very aggressive and adversarial. That's a no-no here at e-budo, we always respectfully disagree when we disagree here. (Or we try to, anyway.) Maybe you didn't realize how hostile you sounded because English is not your first language.

If you want anyone to take you seriously, you should simply change the tone of your posts. Or it will result in what Mr. Harden suggests - everybody ignoring you or making jokes at your expense.

Respectfully,

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by FreeBlade
The point is:Alcântara's family did something wrong!
They attacked a brazilian sensei(iai/kendo/kenjutsu),who
made a nice work in our country.
FREEBLADE

YAMANTAKA : The quote below says it all...:rolleyes:

[Quicksilver]

I should point out, however, so that Hyaku-sensei doesn't have to, that when you address Mr. Hyakutake, you are addressing a high-ranking kendo-ka, a sensei. Mr. Hyakutake is a sensei of both kendo and certain types of kenjutsu.


Rafael,

Well, I do agree with Mr.Kondek in a point: to be respectfully. But, I do realize that your enragement is a way to express your true concerns about the current issue. The problem is that Yamantaka (whose is well-known here in Brazil, in a bad way as well as his son I must say), attacked an well-known brazilian Sensei, and his students tried to defend him as well as their styles and their integrity. An evidence of that is the adjectives given by the Alcantaras like "lackeys" and others that are in this thread to prove what I am saying. To demand an exposition of certifications (authorizations) to teach is ridiculous. What is the point of that? That seems just a beginer thing, to prove that my, or yours or their teacher and combat techniques are greater. "My style of Karate is better than yours!" that kind of childish and imature thing. That´s what seems to me: an attempt to provocke a person, (Mr. Kishikawa) and to disgrace him, that´s all. The Alcantaras are "burnt" (queimados) here in Brazil? Yes they are. So, if you know something, just say it, and let them taste a bit of their own poison, and try to defend themselves. Until now I saw only well-written and polite words, but nothing was shown and proven. To all the other budo brothers and sisters, be careful with the beforementioned well-written and polite words, they can hide real bad people: you don´t know each other so it´s easy to make dumb on the others. Be careful, my friends, very careful.

Farewell my friend, and keep practicing kendo!

Kwami Paranhos

[rbrown]

"To demand an exposition of certifications (authorizations) to teach is ridiculous. What is the point of that? That seems just a beginer thing, to prove that my, or yours or their teacher and combat techniques"

OK, I think Mr. Harden is right this needs to die off but this comment gets to the root of what is wrong with this whole thread. I don't know the first thing about martial arts in Brazil but people cannot just go around claiming to be authorized to teach an art and be the Brazillian representative for this or that without authorization.
I think the whole "discussion" came about from these claims. Now you say "what is the point of that?"?????? How about honesty, integrity, false advertising, disception and just plain stupidity?????
If I say I'm self-taught or if I teach Made-up Ryu that's one thing, let the buyer beware (American Kenjutsu, anyone??!!) and get all the students you can, I say congratulations and way to go. If you claim to have a relationship with an established school and claim to represent said school from Japan then you should damn well better be able to prove it. What's the point???? What's the point??? In Brazil can anyone say "hi I'm doctor soandso" and open up a medical clinic?? Can anyone say "I have a degree in education" and go teach school??? I would certainly hope not, but this is the same thing. Again, if you open up your own school with no affiliation that's one thing, if you claim affiliation (or a law degree, medical degree, board certification, whatever) then you should be able to pull out something that verifies it.
What's the point???? I guess the point to me is that so many people talk about what practicing martial arts adds to their lives. So many people talk about how practicing makes you a better person, provides discipline, gives you an inner sense of blah, blah, blah... Then these same people lie about their teacher, their qualifications and everything else.
I guess to me, well that's the point.

Richard Brown

[hyaku]

Thankyou Mr Brown

I was not going to post any more in this thread. But I feel I should add a little. A lot of the points mentioned seem to be the result of not knowing about things Japanese.

Sensei is perhaps an overused word in Japan. Anybody who has taught somebody something gets called it. It is always used as a an honorific in education, medicine, budo etc.

On the other hand Doctors are called Sensei but are just plain mister outside the Hospital.

I get called it “all” the time being a professor and teaching /doing Kendo/Kobudo.

It is an honorific that is used as a form of respect. But I don’t think it has not been the norm up to now to use it on Ebudo, although I have seen “professor” a few times.

If its going to be used I would be most grateful if a few other well deserving budo teachers out there were also called Sensei.

Certification/Letters/Papers:

There seems to be a bit of a gap in communication somewhere when its comes to certification and letters of recognition. Looking at other threads it can be seen that teachers both present and past have handed out “many certificates” here in Japan and to other countries. It sometimes promotes long discussions as to which is the genuine one here in Japan itself.

Some of these certificates are honorary certification and have subtle differences to the one an only one handed down. So only the writer and giver and a few selected people are fully aware of.

Also there are other factors why some teachers here in Japan will perhaps readily issue papers to a foreigner for various reasons:

A, Foreign practitioners are free to do as they please within their own countries.

B, They wish to promote their art outside Japan and are keen to establish links in other countries.

People are free to make web pages and put up whatever they like and freely use a name which perhaps misleads people. Perhaps in some cases put up information without the full knowledge of their teacher that can easily get misinterpreted by the unbeknowing.

This is why the Internet is crammed full of people being convinced and professing to be an expert because they have received some wondrous piece of paper written in Japanese.

In Japan if they give papers, it is sometimes totally outside the realms of their own hierarchy. I could mention offhand quite a few would be successors here in Japan that have never so much as received anything from the Sensei/Soke. But the Sensei/Soke has perhaps honored someone outside the realms. And it is acceptable because its “outside”.

So in some cases anyone receiving anything who is outside should really be aware of what they are receiving and accept it as such. "If" and I did say if they receive something they really should be aware of the manner which it was given. I this simple fact to difficult for some people to comprehend?

This is of course not always the case and I would not wish to offend anyone who has studied for many years and has received recognition for their efforts.

We should perhaps basically think not of who received what from whom as who is inside and who is out. To say Japan is a very “inside-outside” country would be putting it mildly. Web page makers and Budoka and readers that have never been to Japan must be aware of such intricacies.

I hope I have made the matter more clear. I shan't be posting for a week. I'm going outside to the Philippines to take snaps of fish, sharks and things. I hope the ones I meet are a lot more docile than some of those on the internet, rofl. Have fun all.

Hyakutake Colin (Call me what you like as long as its not to bad!)

[fifthchamber]

Hello all,
GEEZ!....All this stress and not a Janty in sight! (LOL:kiss: )
This whole thread now seems have turned into a Brazilian issue rather than a post about Kenjutsu:confused: Bewildering...Truly.
What really got to me when I saw this was the total lack of respect to those who were posting here..Yamantaka and Hyakutake-San in particular..
The essential point here is that no-one should claim to be teaching an art that they are NOT authorized to teach. Even more so if that art is a Martial one..
I am sure that Kishikawa-San is a good man. That, however does not excuse his claiming to teach an art that he is not authorized to pass on.
If the comments made here are anything to go on then it does seem as though there are some major problems with the philosophies and ideas being taught in Brazil (And worldwide..See Bad Budo for these..).
The lack of respect is TRULY the worrying issue here..And this coupled with a beligerent and confrontational stance is what leads to BIG problems in life...I have NO idea about Yamantaka or his families 'problems' in Brazil..But the point of a forum like this one is that all people are treated with the respect they earn from their posts and that we all start equal..Yamantaka has always been helpful, and respectful and has EARNT his dues here. Hyakutake-San certainly does not need me to stand up for him..:toast: His posts show him to be a decent and modest man and an honest one and again he has EARNT my respect from his posts here.
Freeblade...I do not know you Sir. But the ATTITUDE I have seen shown here is most un-becoming to any Martial artist...And a sad thing to see really. Remember...Who you are here is what you demonstrate in your posts...No more and no less. And what has been shown thus far is not boosting opinion in the forum.
My own small observations on what has become one of the strangest posts I have ever seen...
Abayo all..:wave:

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by fifthchamber
Hello all,
GEEZ!....All this stress and not a Janty in sight! (LOL:kiss: )
This whole thread now seems have turned into a Brazilian issue rather than a post about Kenjutsu:confused: Bewildering...Truly.
The lack of respect is TRULY the worrying issue here..And this coupled with a beligerent and confrontational stance is what leads to BIG problems in life...I have NO idea about Yamantaka or his families 'problems' in Brazil..But the point of a forum like this one is that all people are treated with the respect they earn from their posts and that we all start equal..Yamantaka has always been helpful, and respectful and has EARNT his dues here. Hyakutake-San certainly does not need me to stand up for him..:toast: His posts show him to be a decent and modest man and an honest one and again he has EARNT my respect from his posts here.


YAMANTAKA : Thank you, Ben! That's exactly my opinion. That's why I try not to answer any of the attacks from these people which, by the way, I don't know who they are and who, apparently, do not want to make themselves known (Kwami seems to be not a true name...)
This is really a personal discussion of no interest to E-Budo. If you or any of our friends here wish to know more about myself or my son, please write me personally and I will be glad to answer any questions.
In my opinion, the best we can do is ignore those guys. They really don't deserve our attention.
Best regards :toast:

[stevemcgee99]

I really wonder about the value of a BB? What is the point? To spray opinions about others and what others do? This guy's a weenie 'cause he does that and we'rwe superior 'cause we do that?
I logged on the first time because I was too impatient to wait a whole week before more direction from my sensei to learn. I learned to talk was not to learn budo on this BB, thanks for the willingness to reply to my threads. I have since practiced. I use the bokken and iaito to stay connected to my school. I glance over the pages here to see anything new. So much arguing. S.O.S. In the climbing world, the same arguments come up: "this guy is a weenie 'cause he climbed it like that" or "We're superior 'cause we describe what we do in a more honest way..." It seems like a competition to put ourselves in league with the fewest we can, and of course, with the few most elite supreme beings possible.
I think there is only one me, meaning that wherever I go or whatever I do, It's only the one me- I can't act different than myself. The way I'm writing this opinion is the way I practice suburi. The way I understand the last three pages of this thread nd the way I understand my sensei's instruction.
How much writing we do about what we don't really KNOW.

Steve McGee

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by stevemcgee99
I really wonder about the value of a BB? What is the point? To spray opinions about others and what others do? Steve McGee
YAMANTAKA : You are quite right. Some people here asked some reasonable questions. There were no answers and the other side began to bash people's reputations, in a freak show not amenable to any BB.
I agree with you. This thread should go out.
Best:toast:

[Yamantaka]

Hello, all!

Since the people-on-people bashing and slandering seems to have stopped, perhaps we could get back to the main point of this thread.
After doing some researching, we have reached the following understandings :
a) Dr. Jorge Kishikawa has stated, on his webpage and through his students's e-mail on this list, that "he was the official representative of the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu and the Suio Ryu for Latin America";
b) this was denied by E-Budo member, Hyakutake Colin, a student of that school in Japan;
c) in spite of no slandering being made, either by me or by Hyakutake Colin, we have been submited to heavy bashing with no answers at all;
d) finally, Kishikawa's representatives left this Forum, apparently by Kishikawa's orders, promising that Kishikawa's credentials would be put on his website. That did not happen up to now;
e) I received information from the Suio Ryu in Japan that Mr. Kishikawa indeed visited the school but that he is A PUPIL of that school, which means that he has no certificate authorizing him to represent that school on Brazil or on Latin America.
This way, I guess it's quite clear that we did not attack Mr. Kishikawa or his school but, after his representatives made some statements, we asked questions concerning his certifications. No satisfactory answer has been given until now. That's all.
Best

[Willian Moraes]

I practice Aikido in São Paulo, Brazil, for 12 years and am shocked as someone like Mr Alacantara could place words as "to learn aikido without the presence of a sensei".
I would like to ask to some practitioner of aikido if there is some competent master where Mr Alcantara lives.
In Brazil, we have famous aikido sensei as Wagner Bull, Reishin Kawai, Severino Sales, Makoto Nishida and others. I dont have information about the time of practice of Mr. Alcantara (and father) in aikido ("self made aikido", I assume), but to ignore the teachers who I mentioned would be at least arrogance.
Someone else believes that aikido can be learned without master?

Willian Domingos de Moraes
"I have a master"

[stevemcgee99]

Why not? People have learned more complicated stuff on their own. Meaning, without a presence of a more experienced person at their aid. But I'd say there would usually be teaching in the form of books written by more experienced people. Some teachers do it better when they write compared to "on the fly" in the presence of students. Some students learn better through reading and practicing rather than listening and watching. I also venture to guess that those who don't learn as well from observation will learn physical skills such as a martial art more slowly. And anyone will learn slower without an experienced person looking over them and interrupting their mistakes/misinterpretations.

Have you ever seen a student perform poorly in front of an experienced person? Do they always correct the student? Do you know any person who continually has an awkwardness to their technique, or demonstrates a misinterpretation even after years with a teacher?

And wasn't the first post titled "Training Kenjutsu Alone?", and not "Is Mr. Kishikawa a fraud?

Steve McGee

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by stevemcgee99
Why not? People have learned more complicated stuff on their own. Meaning, without a presence of a more experienced person at their aid. I also venture to guess that those who don't learn as well from observation will learn physical skills such as a martial art more slowly. And anyone will learn slower without an experienced person looking over them and interrupting their mistakes/misinterpretations.


YAMANTAKA : Among the people that learned "without" a teacher, the most known examples are Miyamoto Musashi and Hwang Kee(founder of Tang Soo Do). That does not mean, of course, that they learned "from a vacuum"...But that they mostly practiced alone and discovered the Way by themselves. And Hwang Kee, I believe, also learned from books, contrariwise to what some people think.
As placed on my profile, I have never practiced Aikido (I did other arts) but my son initiated his studies with two of the people cited (Severino Salles and Wagner Bull) and they are mentioned in our book "Warriors and Sages". But he and them lived in different states an saw one another once or twice a year and soon he was dissapointed with both of them and he continued his practice "without a master". That doesn't mean that he wasn't helped by many teachers, even more excellent, as Mitsugi Saotome, Welf Quade, William Gleason and Dan Messisco. But, for the most part, his training has been alone with his group.
I believe the most important thing is not a "master" but observation, comprehension, effort and other qualities of the student. A bad student will get nothing from a "master", even an excellent one. A good student will prevail, even without a "master".

STEVE : And wasn't the first post titled "Training Kenjutsu Alone?", and not "Is Mr. Kishikawa a fraud?"
Steve McGee[/B][/QUOTE]

YAMANTAKA : Indeed. And that reinforces your point, doesn't it?
Best regards and thank you for teaching me
DOMO ARIGATO GOZAIMASHITA :wave:

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Willian Moraes
I dont have information about the time of practice of Mr. Alcantara (and father) in aikido ("self made aikido", I assume),

YAMANTAKA : If you ignore many things and you are "assuming", perhaps you shouldn't criticize people that you do not know.


Originally posted by Willian Moraes
... but to ignore the teachers who I mentioned would be at least arrogance.
Willian Domingos de Moraes
"I have a master"

YAMANTAKA : Where did you get that idea? Who's ignoring whom?
You have just entered E-Budo (yesterday). I believe, as the other guy before you, that you are a student of either Severino Salles or Wagner Bull. In any case, as you are behaving like the other guys, I won't answer you anymore. This seems to be a personal vendetta, so if you are interested write me by private e-mail and spare our friends in E-Budo to suffer your childish behavior. :nono:
In Budo

[Nathan Scott]

Look people, this thread has gotten way off topic. It is not about Niten Ichi ryu or Yamantaka.

If you can't contribute something of content, and be reasonably polite, then shut your cake hole. We do not need personal attacks and flame wars here. There are many other forums you can go to that would welcome this kind of poor manner.

Mr. Kishikawa is making some pretty bold claims, and it is up to him to provide proof of his claims if he intends to publish them on the internet. As pointed out previously, Mr. Colin is well established and respected in the Budo community. Take your agenda and rude manner elsewhere.

I suggest this thread be closed since it is obvious that it has no prayer of staying on topic or producing useful discussion.

Regards,

[Nathan Scott]

Yamantaka,

Please PM or email me offline. I'd like to know more about Mr. Kishikawa's "Shinkendo". This is a copywritten name, and not something that the public can adopt at will.

email address (nscott@shinkendo.com)

Thanks,

[Finny]

I can't believe I missed all this! (the title's so tame by comparison...:laugh: )

I'd like to second Mr Scott's suggestion that the thread be closed.
Its waaaay off track.

As many have said, we all know Mr Colin's credentials and character, and the simple posting of some of the personal attacks on him by 'the others' basically illustrates the validity of this other groups claims.

We all know whats going on... so lets just leave it.

:toast:
Brendan Finn