the Three Treasures

[Soulend]

We all know of the Three Treasures: the Sword, the Jewel(or comma shaped beads), and the Mirror. Are all three of these actual, existing objects (today)? I believe the Mirror is at the great shrine at Ise..is this so? What of the Sword? Is this legendary piece in the Emperor's posession, and if so, has a photograph ever been permitted of it...or a painting made of it? I imagine it would be a straight-bladed 'ken' style sword..I'd love to see a photo if one exists, that is if the sword itself exists...

-David Craik

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Soulend
We all know of the Three Treasures: the Sword, the Jewel(or comma shaped beads), and the Mirror. Are all three of these actual, existing objects (today)? I believe the Mirror is at the great shrine at Ise..is this so? What of the Sword? Is this legendary piece in the Emperor's posession, and if so, has a photograph ever been permitted of it...or a painting made of it? I imagine it would be a straight-bladed 'ken' style sword..I'd love to see a photo if one exists, that is if the sword itself exists...
-David Craik

YAMANTAKA : I believe that the 3 Treasures have never existed in a physical sense, but in the sense of a myth, in the same way as the Heilige Lanze, the Holy Grail and the Holy Shroud (Sanctus Sudarium), this last one supposedly kept at the Vatican and heavily contested by researchers. The same thing seems to happen with the "mirror" at Ise Shrine.
Think of it this way : Nobody knows if King Arthur and Camelot really did exist,but it's a beautiful and powerful myth, one who has inspired many men to great deeds. Therein lies its importance.
Best
:wave:

[Karl Friday]

Originally posted by Yamantaka


YAMANTAKA : I believe that the 3 Treasures have never existed in a physical sense, but in the sense of a myth,


Nope, all three were real. The mirror and jewel are still around. The former is in the Ise Grand Shrine, I';m not sure where the jewel is kept. The Sword was lost during the Battle of Dannoura in 1185, but a replacement was created sometime during the medieval period.

[hikari]

Yamantaka: the Shroud is kept in Torino, Italy, and although its authenticity isn't (euphemistically speaking) "clear", it's a substantial piece of clothing. There are half a dozen of alleged Holy Grails, the most famous of them being kept in the cathedral of Valencia in Spain.

Personally, I think the Monty Pythons' is the best one :D

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by Karl Friday


Nope, all three were real. The mirror and jewel are still around. The former is in the Ise Grand Shrine, I';m not sure where the jewel is kept. The Sword was lost during the Battle of Dannoura in 1185, but a replacement was created sometime during the medieval period.

YAMANTAKA : You amaze me, Dr. Friday! You mean REALLY real? What are the supports for that afirmation? I read about the loss of the sword if I'm not mistaken in your book HIRED SWORDS but I thought it was a bit of legend. Could you please tell me more?
Best regards

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by hikari
Yamantaka: Personally, I think the Monty Pythons' is the best one :D

YAMANTAKA : And, in that, Sir, you are absolutely RIGHT!:laugh:

[Soulend]

Thanks, Dr. Friday. I thought I was correct about the mirror. Getting back to part of my original question, have you ever run across a picture or at least a description of the sword?

A side note:

Actually, I believe the Shroud is held in Turin, not Torino.

[Kyukage]

Originally posted by Yamantaka
What are the supports for that afirmation?

Like the Japanese Imperial Lineage itself, the existence and whereabouts of the three relics had been recorded faithfully up until and into the Meiji Resoration era by several exemplary bodies of scholars in Japan, both close to the Imperial seat, and fully detached therefrom.

[Nicolas Caron]

I'm sorry for my ignorance... but what are those 3 treasures exactly?

[Kyukage]

Originally posted by Soulend
Getting back to part of my original question, have you ever run across a picture or at least a description of the sword?

The sword was a straight ken type balde, with a swelling in width at the tip. its length was actually fairly short, and did not surpass the length of a man's arm, from palm to armpit. The exact length - however - is indeterminate. The guard was a surprisingly small yet serviceable. The exact length is indeterminate. It was indeed lost during the Battle of Dannoura. As to the replacement, I believe it was recorded as being in the posession of Tokugawa Ieyasu at one point (though perhaps he simply had yet a second reproduction crafted in secret) and this supposedly confirmed - in private counsel - his right to rule as military sovereign.

As incomplete as this is, its coming off the top of my head at 1AM the night before my flight. If i can remember and if I can find them, I'll try to cite sources next time I'm in here.

[hikari]

Originally posted by Soulend
Actually, I believe the Shroud is held in Turin, not Torino.

Actually, Torino is the Italian ortography for Turin. I just couldn't remember the English name of the city ;)

BTW, the only webpage I could find with a picture of the sword is this:

http://www.usagiyojimbo.com/grasscutter/grass-2.html

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by hikari
BTW, the only webpage I could find with a picture of the sword is this:
http://www.usagiyojimbo.com/grasscutter/grass-2.html

YAMANTAKA : You're right about Torino, Hikari. After all, if each of us will write the name of a town or country in our languages, there will be a great confusion. Better to use the original name in the original language(who would know that Alemanha, in portuguese, means GERMANY or DEUTSCHLAND?);)
About that page (it does not matter if it's about a japanese manga), it touches on the very point I'm discussing with Dr.Friday. The 3 Treasures come from the Gods and were given to the Imperial Family to enforce their "divine power to rule"...That's myth, not reality. So, it's not straying out of the thread, but discussing the very fact of the existence or not of those "real" artifacts. The story presented in the Usagi Yojimbo page seems to me to be quite reasonable and supports my position. I hope Dr. Friday can tell us more about the reality or not of the 3 Treasures.
Best

[Joseph Svinth]

Anybody who knows better, please feel free to correct me, I'm just learning as I go.

It's not the Three Treasures, but a US art museum site you might like is http://www.clemusart.com/exhibit/nara/curator.html

The Mirror has been discussed. Meanwhile, the Imperial Palace is supposed to have the Family Jewels. Presumably the Emperor handles those himself, perhaps with help from the Empress or other close acquaintances. So that leaves us with the Grass-Mowing sword (or its replica), which is held at the Atsuta shrine, in Nagoya.

Atsuta Jingu Treasure Museum
1-1-1 Jingu, Atsuta-ku Nagoya-shi, Aichi-ken
Tel : 052-671-0852

http://www.atsutajingu.or.jp/eng/intro/main.htm

According to the shrine's version of events, the shrine and sword are about 1880 years old. Although I suspect that this date is legendary, some of the trees in the shrine's area are ca. 1000 years old, and this implies that they've been protected for at least 900 years, otherwise they would have become furniture or firewood a long time ago.

Like the trees at the shrine, the sword itself *probably* dates to the 12th to 14th century. Metallurgy and carbon dating could of course end the speculation pretty quickly. But, inasmuch as the sword is not on display to the public, I'd guess that the actual antiquity was determined long ago, and found wanting. I mean, if the sword were truly of ancient workmanship -- or even 8th century CE workmanship -- the pious would trot it out. But as they hide it away, my guess is that it is a 12th to 14th century sword, and the archivists know it. But of course this relatively recent origin would not support the Japanese national myth, and so while the sword is protected, etc., it is kept out of sight to keep people from asking embarrassing questions in public.

For some details, see http://www.yamasa.org/japan/english/destinations/aichi/atsuta_jingu.html

***

It's not directly relevant, but have you read Kurt Singer's "Mirror, Sword, and Jewel"? It's out of print, but quite good. (Singer was an economist in Japan in the 1930s.) If you want to buy a copy, here's one for sale: http://www.oldbookroom.com/currentlists/jap_11.htm . The price is not as scary as it looks -- those are Australian rather than US dollars. For a comparable British price, see http://130.225.203.37/bookshop/bookSubject/Social%20Sciences/Sociology[/url]. My copy is paperback, and didn't cost nearly that much.

There is a Japanese translation of this book (the original was in English), and the two books are used side-by-side in Germany to teach students some of the problems of translation. http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~japano/kvv/japanologie_kvv_kompl97.html : "We will be
paying special attention to the linguistic problems involved in translating from one language to another, on the one hand and to the cultural problems involved in encounting a different culture from one´s own on the other."

BTW, a bibliographic essay on Japanese culture that seems quite good appears at http://inic.utexas.edu/asnic/countries/japan/japancultndsociety.html .

[Yamantaka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
[B]Anybody who knows better, please feel free to correct me, I'm just learning as I go.[ENDF QUOTE]

YAMANTAKA : Dear Svinth Sama,
I knew most of your information but for Singer's book and the german trivia but it's always a pleasure to hear from you.
Warms thanks to the Human Encyclopedia! ;)
Ubaldo Castilho de Alcântara (Having problems with his signature...:cry: )

[P Goldsbury]

Originally posted by Nicolas Caron
I'm sorry for my ignorance... but what are those 3 treasures exactly?

Well, it all goes back to the time when the Japanese deities Amaterasu and Susanoo had a major argument. Susanoo thought he had won the argument and Amaterasu took umbrage and hid in a cave. Since she was the sun goddess, this was a major problem and "all manner of calamities arose". So all the deities did what the Japanese are very good at and held a meeting and gave various jobs to various deities (from the meetings we have here in Hiroshima University, I can just imagine what it might have been like, except that there were eight MILLION deities).

They commissioned one deity, by the name of Ishi-kori-dome-no-mikoto, to make a mirror and another deity,Tama-no-yo-no-mikoto, a make a string of maga-tama beads.

These objects were hung on the branches of a tree, after which a solemn liturgy was intoned. One deity was posted by the door and another deity, by the name of Ame-no-uzume-no-mikoto, did various things which included: overturning a bucket and stamping on it, becoming divinely posessed and, as a result, exposing her breasts and pushing her skirt-band doww to her genitals.

On seeing this 'sacred dance', the eight million deities laughed "in unison" and the ground shook. Amaterasu opened the door a little and asked what was going on. She was told that there was a deity superior to herself and then shown the mirror. She approached the mirror and so came out of the cave. Then light dawned once more.

But Susanoo suffered the ancient equivalent of mura-hachibu: he was expelled from the group and, among other things, his beard was cut off. But he redeemed himself. After he was expelled, he descended to Izumo (in present-day Shimane Prefecture: I often visit the shrine). He slew an eight-tailed dragon with a sword, and on his cutting the tail, another sword appeared. He presented this sword, called the kusanagi (grass-cutter) to Amaterasu. (This is why the kusanagi sword is important.)

Later, five deities, including the deities who made the mirror and the beads, descend from heaven with the beads (sc. jewels), mirror and the kusanagi sword what Susanoo had presented to Amaterasu, and establish a palace.

The political dimension to all this is best studied in English in the notes to Donald Philippi's translation of the Kojiki, which I used for the above account. Philippi suggests that the deities who played the leading roles outside the cave, and also the deities who decended from heaven with the three 'sacred treasures', were local deities of clans which supported the Yamato clan, which clan was responsible for the compilation of the Kojiki and Nihon-shoki. The antics of Susanoo and Amaterasu (and Susanoo's rehabilitation), have been thought to suggest a major conflict between Yamato and Izumo, which Yamato won either by force or by negotiation.

Do the three 'sacred treasures' really exist? Others in this thread have indicated the whereabouts of the objects thought to be their present incarnations. Japan's emperors always stress an unbroken line to Amaterasu and possession of the three 'treasures' has been used to show the legitimacy of this 'unbroken' line, but historical accuracy does not figure till quite later in the Kojiki.

The three 'sacred treasures' occupy an important place in the lives of ordinary Japanese. Immediately after the war, these were: washing machine, TV, and vacuum cleaner. Now, I am told by my students that they are: wallet, 'accessories', and 'keitai-denwa' (cellular telephone).

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury,
_________________
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University

[Yamantaka]

Originally posted by P Goldsbury
Do the three 'sacred treasures' really exist? Others in this thread have indicated the whereabouts of the objects thought to be their present incarnations. Japan's emperors always stress an unbroken line to Amaterasu and possession of the three 'treasures' has been used to show the legitimacy of this 'unbroken' line, but historical accuracy does not figure till quite later in the Kojiki.
Best regards,
P A Goldsbury,


YAMANTAKA : DOMO ARIGATO GOZAIMASHITA, GOLDSBURY SAMA.
My best regards to you
Ubaldo Castilho de Alcântara (Still having trouble wity my missing signature...):wave:

[Soulend]

A lot of good info here! Wow, that sword looks more like a Roman gladius than anything Asian. Really interesting. Thanks for the correction on the Turin/Torino thing. I foolishly thought they were two different places, as I have seen both names on various maps in the past.

[P Goldsbury]

I received a book recently which is very relevant to this thread. It is "Shinto: The Sacred Art of Ancient Japan", edited by Victor Harris and published by the British Museum Press, London (ISBN: 0-7141-1498-7).

There are a number of photographs of mirrors, swords and jewels found in archeological sites around Japan. On p.104 there is an illustration of a mirror, swords and 'magatama' beads, found on a site near Fukuoka, Japan. The objects have been dated to the Yayoi Period (2nd century BC) and the swords are straight, double-sided and made of bronze. The comment, by Masayuki Harada of the Cultural Affairs Agency, suggests that the swords might have been made in Korea. Harada states that the objects show that, "the concept of the 'Three Sacred Treasures' was already established by the Middle Yayoi Period."

On p.114 is an illustration of a 'haniwa' figure of a girl with a sword in her right hand, a mirror pouch at her left hip, and earrings & necklace of magatama beads. The figure was found in a 'kofun' tomb of a local chieftain and has been dated to the Late Kofun Period (6th century AD).

From the lengthy introduction by Victor Harris, we understand that the three sacred treasures were sacred objects used by shamans during transactions with the local kami. The local chieftains wre also priests and probably owed their political position to their efficacy in interceding with the kami. During the Kofun Period and after, the kami of the Yamato clan were found to be more powerful than those of other clans and thus possession of the Yamato clan's sacred objects also gained a special importance.

Actually this book has had mixed reviews, but the criticisms centre more on the concept of Shinto expounded than on the accuracy of the discussions of the archeological remains.

Best regards,
________________
P A Goldsbury,
Graduate School of Social Sciences,
Hiroshima University