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Jeff Hamacher
28th January 2002, 07:49
somehow, i fear that i won't be able to ask my question without it getting misinterpreted, but i would like to sound out other members on how their training fits into their everyday lives. by way of introduction ...

i recall reading a comment in The Spirit of Aikido where Kisshomaru-doshu said that some of his "favourite" students were those who attended class regularly, trained to the limits of their ability, and when class was done, simply left without ceremony. based on this, it seems that one ideal of martial arts study is training hard when class is in session but setting aside "martial" training when outside of class.

of course, this is not to suggest that one forgets part and parcel what one has learned in class at the exit to the dojo. another of my recollections is a comment from Kondo Katsuyuki-sensei during a seminar a few years back, where he said, "if you can't apply that which you learn in the dojo to your everyday life, you may as well not come to class at all." the lessons we learn regarding tradition, respect, and patience (among other things) through training in martial arts rightfully should shape who we are both inside and outside the dojo. i suppose it should also be said that the more "practical" components of our training may well get called upon for purposes of self-defense against a "real-world" assailant.

my own experience in martial arts seems more similar to the former description, i.e. i believe that i try to attend class regularly and do my best while i'm there, but when i'm away from training i concentrate with other pursuits. naturally, martial arts training has certainly served to shape who i am as a person, but i'm also of the mind that study of tea has done more in that regard than martial arts. it should also be noted that i am a tadpole in the MA pond: i have a little more than a year in jo and about four years in aikido (which i've largely given up due to a nagging knee injury).

and so i arrive at my question: where do you fit on this spectrum? is martial arts your lifeblood, the very air that you breathe 24-7-365, and do you feel that this is the only way to train? or are you more the "journeyperson" who puts in their time assiduously but sets aside training when class is done? in your opinion, is this distinction between "full-time" and "part-time" training related to distinctions between modern and classical martial arts? as far as it doesn't intrude upon your privacy, please try to give some indication of your role in your dojo (teacher? assistant instructor? senior student? junior student?), since i think this brings to bear on your "training attitude".

i sincerely look forward to your responses!

MarkF
28th January 2002, 10:53
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
"if you can't apply that which you learn in the dojo to your everyday life, you may as well not come to class at all."

Hi, Jeff,
If you had just posted this quote I would have sworn it was said by Kano Jigoro.

I don't know when Kondo S. said it, but it does sound very familiar, especially to Kano's earlier years.

Mark

Dan Harden
28th January 2002, 11:30
The correct translation of Kondo's is "Budo and life are one and the same" He says it is one of his favorite teachings, and says it often and has done so in print. Jeff has probably heard the expanded version.

Mark,
You are correct in that Kano as well as many other sensei have expressed the same or similar thoughts. It is a somewhat generic euphemism in Budo.

We do not train to die or to kill
but rather
We train to live
Budo is about living

Much the same thought

Dan

Chris Li
28th January 2002, 11:58
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
i recall reading a comment in The Spirit of Aikido where Kisshomaru-doshu said that some of his "favourite" students were those who attended class regularly, trained to the limits of their ability, and when class was done, simply left without ceremony. based on this, it seems that one ideal of martial arts study is training hard when class is in session but setting aside "martial" training when outside of class.


Hmm, I didn't interpret his remarks in quite the same way. My impression was that he was saying something like this - people tend to remember and admire the stars, the flashy guys, but for him the most important students were those that came every day, day after day, year after year, trained hard and then went home without making a lot of noise about it.

I think that K. Ueshiba was often underestimated because he was so low-key, really kind of shy in a lot of ways, a lot like those guys he talks about admiring.

Best,

Chris

Jeff Hamacher
29th January 2002, 06:23
Mark & Dan,

i can easily believe that treating martial arts training and life itself as one and the same is a very common theme for a variety of martial arts. the late Shimizu-sensei of jo was quoted as making virtually the same statement. my recollection of Kondo-sensei's comment was simply a convenient reference. he also gave us a darn fine presentation, which is why it still sticks in my mind.

Chris,

excellent point. i suppose Kisshomaru-doshu's comment was sooner about the "quietness" of the dedicated student than such a student's attitude toward training. i'll have to reread that passage. perhaps there are plenty of people living martial arts 24-7-365 who go about it very quietly, indeed.

now, in an attempt to get out of you what i really want to know, what are your attitudes towards your martial arts training? are you a "class-at-a-time" kind of martial artist who sets aside training when training's done, or are you constantly thinking martial arts every waking minute? do you think that your feelings about martial arts training are related to your choice of a modern versus a classical style? answer me, galdarnnit, 'cuz i wanna know!

Chris Li
29th January 2002, 06:50
Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
Chris,

excellent point. i suppose Kisshomaru-doshu's comment was sooner about the "quietness" of the dedicated student than such a student's attitude toward training. i'll have to reread that passage. perhaps there are plenty of people living martial arts 24-7-365 who go about it very quietly, indeed.

That's the way that I remember it. However, it's been something like ten years since I read the book, and I don't have it handy, so I may or may not be mis-remebering.




now, in an attempt to get out of you what i really want to know, what are your attitudes towards your martial arts training? are you a "class-at-a-time" kind of martial artist who sets aside training when training's done, or are you constantly thinking martial arts every waking minute? do you think that your feelings about martial arts training are related to your choice of a modern versus a classical style? answer me, galdarnnit, 'cuz i wanna know!

I think that I'd go nuts if I thought about it every waking minute, but I do spend a fair amount of time during the day ruminating...

Best,

Chris

charlesl
29th January 2002, 07:07
Jeff Hamacher wrote:
what are your attitudes towards your martial arts training? are you a "class-at-a-time" kind of martial artist who sets aside training when training's done, or are you constantly thinking martial arts every waking minute?


Er, somewhere in between. "Real Life" tends to intrude on my schedule almost daily, things like my job, my wife, my kid, my friends (err, this list isn't in order of importance by the way ;o) are constantly distracting me. But I think about my training, and the ma in general pretty much every day, training or no training, and often take a break from things to run stuff through my mind.

Jeff Hamacher wrote:
do you think that your feelings about martial arts training are related to your choice of a modern versus a classical style? answer me, galdarnnit, 'cuz i wanna know!

I don't think so.

Aloha,

-Charles

Chuck Clark
29th January 2002, 16:22
At some point, if we are doing the practice properly, self and practice are the same.

I suspect that someone like Eric Clapton, for example, is "music" all of the time. It wouldn't surprise me if he breaks wind with rhythm and harmony (not to forget with great "soul").

Regards,

charlesl
29th January 2002, 17:15
Chuck Clark wrote:
I suspect that someone like Eric Clapton, for example, is "music" all of the time. It wouldn't surprise me if he breaks wind with rhythm and harmony (not to forget with great "soul").

Wow. That is THE perfect analogy.

-Charles

Jeff Hamacher
31st January 2002, 07:43
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
At some point, if we are doing the practice properly, self and practice are the same.

I suspect that someone like Eric Clapton, for example, is "music" all of the time.
an excellent point, Clark-sensei. and i think it also reinforces a comment i made upthread regarding one's relative "level of commitment" to martial training.

Clapton represents a musician at the top of his profession. were his dedication to his craft anything less than what it is, people wouldn't grant him the recognition that he enjoys. similarly, Clark-sensei's level of commitment to martial arts is, i believe, both the result of his hard-earned position and the reason behind his ability to rise to that position in the first place.

on the other hand, i'm nowhere near such a level of achievement in martial arts. if i put in the same kinds of efforts that Clark-sensei has then of course my progress would be much faster, but even if i don't i will still improve simply from steady efforts in class. for a while, at least. once the learning curve flattens out then i'll really have to turn up the heat. as my cello prof in university told me, "the first 90 percent of learning to play the cello is easy. the remaining 10 percent you'll spend your whole life trying to nail down." to Yo-Yo Ma, self and cello are probably pretty much one and the same.

this is just one part of the "attitude to martial arts" question that i raised originally. looking forward to more comments.

Chuck Clark
31st January 2002, 20:21
I do think it is very important to do some "inner work" such as self-analysis and finding some understanding of what our real intent is in connection to practice. I'm not placing a value judgement here. Everyone must come to their own understanding and then balance their expectations and or goals with their willingness to commit.

Budo practice has room for all levels. I also think that whatever level of commitment someone makes, they should be serious and do their best at that level of involvement.

Regards,

Dan Harden
1st February 2002, 03:50
I think that Chuck is right on the money.

It doesn't matter what or which art you are doing. We will have goals that are our own-they more than likely will change and develop over time. Remaining true to your self and your goals is all you can do.
Some will tend to live the art-not in a "I dream I am a samurai" adolescent way-more in a "I think about it all the time" way.
I tend to obsess over principles and techniques. I work them to the bone, deconstruct attacks and attackers-wire frame people in motion etc.etc.
Coming to grips with your own goals and limitations and having both the humility to honesty see yourself as you are Is hard for many people to do. A good Dojo will do that to you as well. It's like a mirror. It is perhaps the single most prevelent reason that no one stays in the arts. Those that have stayed have faced the Tiger. That is not an empty euphimism. Having the tenacity and temerity to continually face failure and the self-effacing work, and yet continue, changes you. Much like a succesfull marraige will.

How many of us are twenty and thirty year men?
Those that have stayed in these arts that long usually have learned and have more to offer than just technique.

An example of "Budo and Life" I can offer you Jeff is a public incident I had with Stanley Pranin, Kondo, and about a hundred other people at a party. A fellow stood up, had the floor, and began to speak lies about his training and a particular branch of Daito ryu-creating and potentially embarassing situation for Kondo Sensei-not to mention the poeple he was slandering.
I asked Stan if i could address him. I stood up and quietly admonished him and spoke in a nuetral fashion about the circumstances being discussed. All the while I knew the players and the details and could have totally embarassed the fellow- effectively handing him his head publicly. The next day I was asked why I didn't. I told the fellow asking to tell Kondo it was his "Budo and Life are one and the same." I had the fellow in a verbal arm bar with no escape- I chose mercy.

Restraint rarely comes back to haunt you

Dan

Jeff Hamacher
1st February 2002, 04:19
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Budo practice has room for all levels. I also think that whatever level of commitment someone makes, they should be serious and do their best at that level of involvement.
i think that just about says it all. thank you for your wonderful insights, Chuck. and Dan, your additional comments about remaining true to your goals as well as always trying to be honest with yourself closely reflect my own feelings about budo training. my gratitude goes out to you as well.

BTW, Dan, did you admonish this slanderous fellow in japanese or english (or perhaps another language entirely)? i imagine that would have been a sight to behold regardless.

George Ledyard
1st February 2002, 19:19
i recall reading a comment in The Spirit of Aikido where Kisshomaru-doshu said that some of his "favourite" students were those who attended class regularly, trained to the limits of their ability, and when class was done, simply left without ceremony. based on this, it seems that one ideal of martial arts study is training hard when class is in session but setting aside "martial" training when outside of class.

I actually would take this to mean that he didn't like the "groupies". The former Doshu was a very quiet and shy man by disposition and I think he very much preferred the folks who came in, enjoyed his classes, worked hard, then took those lessons out into their lives. A man in his position gets all sorts of stuff put onto him. Everyboby's expectations of what the "Master" should be, do for them, etc. I know tha politics of the Aikido world was about his least favorite thing to have to deal with.

So I don't read this as not taking your training with you when you leave but more as doing your own training and living your own life and not trying to draw your teacher into your problems, expectations, disappointments, conflicts, etc.

I know from experience how much you can get dumped on you just from within your own dojo, to have been the Big Kahuna for alll of world wide Aikido... I can't even imagine what it must have been like. A great man in my mind.