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m a s a m u n e
29th January 2002, 16:32
Hello Everyone,

With everyone posting on that thread about the origin of Iaido, I hope no one gets mad at me for posting another Iaido type thread! Gomen-nasai, but I am really curious about this subject.

Okay, now that that's off my back, on to my question.

I was looking at some sites that had pictures from what one could call a type of "koryu expo" (I forgot the name, I think it was Kobudo Embu or something) and it had an Iai Practicioner performing nukitsuke. The caption under the pic said "Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu" and I was stunned. If I'm not wrong, this is supposed to be the name for the original style of Iai from Hayashizaki (After his students changed it from Shimmei Muso Ryu). They actually still teach this? Is this the "main" line or branch of the style that is the bases for MJER and MSR? If it is, what is its cirriculum? Do they perform waza from seiza?

Also, I might be going to Japan in the future, and I was wondering if anybody can give me information on how to find a school that teaches this. I've been told there is also an organization kinda like the ZNKR that organizes koryu. Is there a website I can be directed to?

Domo Artigato Gozaimasu
- Alex Guillermo

Rennis
29th January 2002, 17:43
Koryu.com has a page on Shin Muso Hayashizaki ryu here (http://koryu.com/guide/hayashizaki.html) which states they are based in Tokyo. While MJER and MSR are the most well known ryu to evolve from Hayashizaki Jinsuke's art, there are a few lesser known ones, such as this one in Tokyo and Hayashizaki Muso ryu in Yamagata. At this point you can't really call any one line the "main line" of the others. They are just separate traditions with a common link somewhere in their history.

Rennis Buchner

Kim Taylor
29th January 2002, 17:54
The photos of the exhibition are here:

http://ejmas.com/tin/meijitaikai/Meijitaikai.html

Kim Taylor
http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Brian Dunham
29th January 2002, 23:36
Coincidentally, today I recieved the Nihon No Kobudo series tape on Hayashizaki Muso Ryu. I don't know about any similarities with SMHR,aside from HMR also using a VERY long sword. The majority of the forms demonstrated ( I don't know how they fit into the overall curriculum, or if the forms are representative of the ryu in general) had the 'enemy' in seiza, armed with wakizashi. Most of the forms had the shidachi walk towards uchidachi, get very close, and assume some type of tatehiza (obscured by hakama, I couldn't really tell) and then draw the sword with very little space between him and his uchidachi.
Something that I noticed right away, was that they wore the sword the same way that we do now in MJER/MSR. Dan and others have said it to be across the front of the body, but this is innaccurate. It is angled inward, with the tsuba in front of your center. There have been some (like Draeger) that have said that the Bushi never wore his sword this way, but I think that the way a sword was worn could vary considerably from one ryu to another. I have noticed several photos in various books in my possession that show different ryu wearing thier swords very differently, at least in how the saya is inserted in the obi and hakama.

Regards,
Brian Dunham
MSR SanShinKai

Brently Keen
30th January 2002, 01:56
Much interesting stuff here, but I'll try to keep my comments to a minimum.

Brian wrote:

"There have been some (like Draeger) that have said that the Bushi never wore his sword this way, but I think that the way a sword was worn could vary considerably from one ryu to another."

Far be it for me to argue with the likes of Draeger, I've also heard reasons for not wearing a sword that way, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "never", it not only seems very likely to vary from ryu to ryu - it apparently does.

I've noticed groups wear them several different ways. One is more completely on the side of the hip, with the wakizashi and/or tanto slightly more in front (or at least allowing for it). The other is also on the side of the hip, but the sword is angled to the front with the tsuba out in front of the center as Brian described. Either of these seem reasonable to me, but I've also seen some iaido practitioners wear their iaito across their belly in front as opposed to on their hip. This (to my admittedly novice eyes) seems a more modern adaptation and does not appear to be very orthodox or practical, and perhaps is what Draeger and others have referred to as incorrect.

The question in my mind (as it is on the previous iai thread about the addition of kata from seiza) is: What are the various reasons for doing it one, or the other ways, and/or then making a change from one way to another?

I believe much of the criticism of iaido styles by koryu practitioners has to do with changes in techniques for aesthetic purposes rather than for strategic or combative advantages.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Dan Harden
30th January 2002, 03:56
Brian I am aware of the wearing style- even if I didn't "describe" it so you would get it. Everyone has seen enough MJER guys to get the picture. Not that I care what they do- have fun.I just don't buy hearing that Seiza and swords sticking out backwards IN SEIZA or while walking down narrow crowded streets was de-riguere.

I am really uninterested in opinions on the subject. Mine as well as yours. We can postulate but there are men here who have made a serious study of such things-I bow to their wisdom.
I would rather hear from the PHDs and many Koryu exponents who have written in on this subject in the past.They research these things.
We have what? The teaching of a school?
Are the teachings of a school a valid arguement against historical research or densho. It would seem that against that, the other view comes up decidedly short.

I still love the arguement here a few years back
Iai guys saying "We wear it this way cause our senior people tell us it is the tradition and our most learned Sensei has told us this is the way it was done.
Koryu guy living in Japan says
"I have trained with your senseis- sensei; the most learned man in your art.I walked into the Dojo wearing my sword vertical the way I was taught in a Koryu art.
Your most learned top ranked guy says to the class
"Ahh-old style. This is how they really wore them you know!"
poof!!
End of that discussion

I just came in from training. A friend of mine who studies with me as well as in an Iai art had the following thoughts on this very topic.
I reminded him yet again to wear the sword more vertical while training with me.
He said that he had been thinking-perhaps at the the next Iai seminar all the guys should wear Daisho all the way there, all the while there and all the way back. Draw that way, with Daisho as well. He figured they, like he, love the sword so much, lets give them a taste of the "Bushi burden."
Have the sword sticking out all over the place, banging into everybody and everything everywhere. Out eating, through hotel corridors, down the street. He figures in no time flat they will "get" what the Historians and Koryu exponents have been arguing for years THEY DIDN"T WEAR THEIR SWORDS LIKE THAT.
It seems like the dumbest thing to argue about. Imagin walking around like the three stooges with a plank
turning wump!!-oops sorry
turn
Wump -oops sorry.


More vertical would have taken care of the problem rather well.



Dan

Paul Steadman
30th January 2002, 07:58
Hi Dan,

Let's pretend for a moment you don't have any idea about how I why certain koryu sword schools carry/wear, draw, cut and/or perform tandoku-renshu & sotai-renshu outside of the ryu that you train in!:look: I know that I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know but the koryu arts of Japan don't share a common syllabus, curriculm or teaching/training methadology. Each respective ryu has their own particular reiho, waza & kata whether Don Draeger or Meik Skoss like it or not. I mean really it's starting to sound like US citizens are telling Japanese sensei how and why to wear their swords, seriously!

When I first saw a Yagyu Shingan Ryu jujutsu kata (a one man kata BTW) I thought it was wierd (how can you practise jujutsu by yourself after all?), funny & not very effective, how they threw their arms around like a windmill, especially when performed against a partner. I thought no-one's going to just stand their while you go to town on them, anyway the Yagyu Shingan Ryu shibucho showed me the why, how and wherefore:( , now I don't ask stupid questions about ryu I don't know anything about.

You quoted: "I still love the arguement here a few years back
Iai guys saying "We wear it this way cause our senior people tell us it is the tradition and our most learned Sensei has told us this is the way it was done.
Koryu guy living in Japan says
"I have trained with your senseis- sensei; the most learned man in your art.I walked into the Dojo wearing my sword vertical the way I was taught in a Koryu art.
Your most learned top ranked guy says to the class
"Ahh-old style. This is how they really wore them you know!"
poof!!" So What! What does that arguement prove? Does it prove that all MSR/MJER practitioners (including shihan & soke in Japan) are doing things wrong? What about progression, what about using the sword after the 'hattorei' (sp?). If all the koryu were to be 100% historically correct in the wearing and use of the sword, we wouldn't have koryu schools, we'd still be wearing contintinantal double edged bronze or iron ken/tsurugi hanging by two cords from our obi tachi style. Don't forget even the katana concept was laughed at and scoffed at when it was presented at the first ever 'Japanese sword show,':laugh: .

Now normally I'd post the reasons why some MSR/MJER schools wear their katana at 45 deg or more across the body, but someone more knowledgeable and with more experience might come along and say: "oh Don Draeger used to demonstrate how MSR/MJER techniques don't work or can't beat TSKSR techniques," and then I'll say: "That's like saying the US Army's rifle barrel up carrying postion is a more superior carrying postion than the British Armys' barrel down carrying position," and we won't get anywhere.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

Brian Dunham
30th January 2002, 10:01
Dan,
The only thing I've ever heard historians and koryu exponents say about the vertical position of wearing swords (otoshizashi) is that it was used to denote status as ronin. Even the ryu that you claim to study doesn't do it that way. BTW, frequently, in my own practice, I do wear kodachi while doing Iai. It requires increased awareness, but no change in technique.
Sorry you find this topic stupid, some of us are still learning.

Brian

Ben Bartlett
30th January 2002, 13:42
Brently wrote:

The question in my mind (as it is on the previous iai thread about the addition of kata from seiza) is: What are the various reasons for doing it one, or the other ways, and/or then making a change from one way to another?

I'm going to leave how the sword was worn historically to someone else, because frankly I haven't done any research in that area. However, I can at least partially answer this question. In my school, we wear the sword at the hip, with tsuba in front of the center, as Brian described. The reason for this is that when we step forward or backward to draw, the sword ends up being perpendicular to our opponent. This makes it possible to attack or deflect on the draw more quickly than if one had to draw from a 45-degree angle (which is where the sword would end up relative to your opponent if you wore your sword perpendicular to yourself). Basically, it just shortens the distance you have to move the sword. If, on the other hand, you are a kenjutsu student, wearing the sword at that angle provides no benefit whatsoever, because you attack with the sword already drawn.
Sorry, late addition here. I should say I don't think that's the only reason it's worn that way. I think it also makes it more difficult for your opponent to tell how fast you are drawing, and it makes it more difficult for your opponent to grab your sword. And there are probably other reasons that I haven't learned, yet. But that's at least part of the answer.

Oh, I will say this in response to Mr. Harden, however. I often end up walking around my rather small and cluttered apartment while wearing my iaito, and I don't bang into things. So regardless of whether or not it was done historically, it's really not all that unwieldy. And I thought we covered the whole seiza thing in the last thread- no one was sitting in seiza wearing katana anyway, and no one in this thread is saying they were. If you are going to argue with something, argue with what people are saying. Building straw men just so you can knock them down wastes all of our time.

Dan Harden
30th January 2002, 13:48
Guys,

My point is, always has been, and is in print that we all do as were taught. Its all good. You do what your sensei tells you in any given endeavor.
To change topics we can discuss the lack of tempering that is spelled out in the heat treating process of old Japanese swords. Everyone can have, and offer, an opinion. But steel is steel and its behaviors are known, and it doesn’t matter what one School says to do or not. If your part of that tradition you do it- no problems. Start telling a metallurgist your right that the blades were not and did not need to be tempered-you got a problem on two fronts.
Tell me you love Japavanese Kris because of the Parmor and that the silvery hue of those layers show the purity of the spirit, and I’m gonna stop you and say no Willy-that’s Nickel bearing iron layered with steel. But you can believe what you like.
You do what you’re told by your sensei. That's it, and that's all.
That pretty much covers all of the discussion about what to do with technique in a given ryu.

Beyond your chosen ryu, beyond the “X ryu does it this way the Y ryu does it that way” are the pragmatic realities of everyday life. No one is critisizing or offering an opinion of what you do as Dojo technique. The topic is not your schools dojo ettiquate. It is a discussion of what is historically valid "outside" of a dojo.
If the topic is troublesome because it involves your ryu discuss another.
There are things I practice every week that I know are not cogent as technique-they are good training tools, most arts have them. They have no useful function on this earth, other then to train a principle into a person body. Never once would I let the training tools for the two arts I practice interfere with the knowledge of the realities of everyday life, or combat rationale. They are just training tools. I don’t have to buy into them to do them.I do them willingly as training-your opinion and mine are not required.
No I am not of the opinion that all techniques are somehow secretly relevant. I am quite sure there are things both old and new that are inane Dojo techniques. The rose colored glasses came off long ago.

You seem to think that westerners are telling Japanese how to wear their swords. That's not quite the point is it. There is a sort of inane racism to that comment. A more accurate statement would be that historians (race and country not required) have reviewed the available data and concluded the following ________________place your topic here).
As such they are not telling anyone what to do. They are simply concluding- what a given culture DID do, and through evidence not opinion. If that flies in the face of modern practitioners of any cultures art anywhere- so be it.
Please note in my Dojo example, the fellow didn’t tell the Japanese Sensei anything! All he did was walk in the door wearing it. It was the MJER Sensei who told HIM that he was wearing it the way they actually wore them.
Neither the Historians role, nor the other Koryu Dojo example offer anything in support of your contention that “Westerners are telling Japanese how to wear their swords.” Again, it would appear your own arts Soke knew quite well how they wore them and had no problem disassociating real life from Dojo technique.


Brian

You suggest that my humor denotes arrogance yes? That you're still learning- the detractors are not.
I just took the more humble road- I'm still learning too. But I have chosen to listen to PHDs in Japanese history, and multiple Koryu exponents and weigh them in the balance of the rather small conflicting opinion.
I am not interested in my opinion or yours. I would rather look at the whole picture to find out what was real in any given culture-as such I look for evidence from my betters who have studied a history independent from affiliation.
I design building everyday. In my work I cannot afford opinions on a variety of topics. I consult with a team of engineers conversant with a multiplicity of materials who have done the research. It’s much the same thing

Dan

m a s a m u n e
30th January 2002, 16:00
Hi Everyone,

Thank you for your posts! They were very informative, especially the first couple of ones that answered some of my questions. However, before the topic of this thread is forgotten, I just want to ask another question.

Mr. Dunham stated that there was another style that is related, the Hayashizaki Muso Ryu. And I assume that this is seperated from the Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu. I've also heard that there's a style calling themselves by the original name, Shimmei Muso Ryu. Just how many styles exist today that stay a little closer to the "main" line of lineage? (I know that probably hundreds of styles were based on Hayashizaki's battojutsu style, but you all get what I mean, right?)

Respectfully,
Alex Guillermo

Ben Bartlett
30th January 2002, 16:15
Sorry, Alex, I'm afraid I'm going to ignore the original topic of this thread for one more post, just so I can add this to the mix. Shitsurei shimasu. :smilejapa

I found this on Colin Hyakutake's site; it's apparently from the Kiso Iai Koza, and this particular piece comes from the memoranda of the 20th headmaster of one of the branches of MJER, Kono Hyakuren.


21 : CONCERNING THE OBI AND SAGEO OF THE BUSHI August 1936

According to the old writings, the Bushi used to wear a Kaku-Obi (a stiff wide sash similar to an Iaido Obi) customarily worn under the Hakama. Daisho were worn in the following manner;

a, The Shoto was worn between the body and the sash, the Tsuba centering in front of the body.

b, The Daito was worn inside one layer of the Obi, The Tsuka-gashira centring in front of the body. Tying the Sageo is too complicated to explain in writing, especially the Shoto. It would be advisable to ask your Sensei, a senior or friend to show you in detail. However, tying the Sageo practically for the battlefield was entirely different to formal methods. Soldiers used to tie their Sageo very firmly regardless of style.


Unfortunately, I have no idea what the "old writings" he refers to are, so I can't give you a first-hand source on the subject, but I'd say that's a fairly decent second-hand one.

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that in there. Now maybe someone can answer poor Alex's question. :D

m a s a m u n e
30th January 2002, 17:52
It's alright, I don't mind this discussion on the proper place to wear a sword, it's actually very informative! I don't mind having that discussion on this thread. I just don't want the original purpose of this thread to be forgotten, just in case someone has information on it but forgets about posting it when they decide to join in this much heated topic about sword position.

Respectfully,
Alex Guillermo

Brian Dunham
30th January 2002, 21:20
Dan,
Can you please provide some references for all of this historical evidence regarding the wearing of swords vertically? As I stated above, everything I have read or heard on this states that this was done to indicate that one was a ronin.
BTW, I do not simply do everything just because "that's the way my sensei does it". I was not taught to learn that way. I know why the sword is worn the way it is in my system. I don't feel any need to discuss the reasons publicly, as I think that anyone who commits themselves to a study of the system will come to discover it through practice and sweat. Very much like your feelings on discussing technical matters of Daito Ryu, no?
As for wearing the swords vertically, according to the rationale of MSR/MJER, this would be bad. It would take longer to strike the opponent from this position, the saya of the wakizashi would probably impede forward movement of the katana, and you would be exposing to much suki. However, I think it is possible that another system may have their own rationale for doing it that way. I've never seen a koryu that teaches this, but I will be open to whatever historical evidence can be presented.

Brian

James Williams
13th February 2002, 18:42
Gentlemen,

Here are some pictures of samurai with their swords from the 1860's. Some have the katana in the obi so you can get an idea how these Samurai wore their swords.

http://www.bugei.com/longtsuka.html#

James

Ellis Amdur
14th February 2002, 01:17
One other point regarding how the sword is carried is the historical context, AND how true the various ryu are to the historical period which they claim lineage. In other words, a ryu could be 600 years old in origin, but maintain reiho of a more recent period through which they passed.

Sengoku uchigatana was a transition from tachi mounting (note the "handachi" - a tachi somewhat remounted and put in the sash in katana fashion.) In this transition period, logically, the sword would be placed in much the same manner (horizonal in plane, projecting straight backwards) as the tachi. (The kodachi or wakazashi would be "across the belly, with the tsuka near the center line). Most musha-e (warrior pictures) of the Sengoku period show warriors on the battlefield with the sword horizonal in the belt - as I have learned in the Araki Ryu, and as the truly scary looking man in the "grey" kimono does in James' set of pictures. Among the reasons for holding the sword in the sash this way were ease of access and use - a quicker draw, an easier use of the tsuka-gashira in offense at close range.

As for the fear of saya-ate (clashing scabbards), I was informed that:
- this was not the same concern on the battlefield as in the town. The main concern was access to the weapon.
- Araki Ryu actually has several kata in which one sets up saya-ate ddeliberately as an excuse to cut the other, and in in "reverse", is prepared for this from another. Imagine some bushi as trying to get by in peace, and others striding belligerently down the street, swaggering confidence and defiance, quite willing to engage in a fight if an opportunity is offered.

On the other hand, if one looks a pictures from the Edo period, and photos from Meiji (again, noting most of the pictures in James' set), one carried the sword vertically to fit safely through crowds and narrow roads in peacetime - where one could face severe legal sanctions for unauthorized fights. One must note that any ryu, no matter how old, might also have been influenced by the hundreds of years of Edo culture, and adopted a peacetime method of sword bearing.

I have never seen a sword held in any historical pictorial representation in which it "projects" out sideways at an angle from the body, as one sees in some iaido schools. There are so many changes in iaido styles from technique to how the sword is held to etiquette to sitting - this is not a slight on iaido, anymore than noting that a zebra is different from a domestic horse is a slight on a horse. I've wondered, by the way, if seiza in iai, was originally an adaptation from iidori (on knees and balls of feet, a very common posture in grappling schools, both for that aspect of things and also for their iai.) I imagine that'
a. That as the period no longer really thought of battlefield fighting - rolling on the ground, drawing one's sword while in a clinch, etc., - and found themselves indoors, and no longer remembering or even caring about the original meaning of the forms they practiced, they simply "drooped" from iidori to seiza, no longer realizing how different the embedded meaning of these two similar looking postures were. In the process, they may well have created some new gokui or explanations to explicate their altered forms.
b. Iidori can hurt, particularly in winter, particularly if one's feet have a tendency to crack open at the bend of the toes (so does hanza, the posture called iaigoshi in Katori Shinto Ryu). Perhaps a few lead instructors of a few influential ryu, who other iaido schools modeled themselves shifted from iidori to seiza because they "wimped out" because of their hurt feet, and their students, unquestioning, imitated them.


With respect

Ellis Amdur

James Williams
14th February 2002, 03:36
Ellis,

Thanks for the post, that was very informative.

James

Ben Bartlett
14th February 2002, 14:26
Ellis,
For a discussion of the origin of the seiza waza (among other things) go to: http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9713 Long-sensei's post is particularly informative in terms of the history of MJER.

Dan Harden
16th February 2002, 03:33
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ellis Amdur
[B]

Snip
if one looks a pictures from the Edo period, and photos from Meiji (again, noting most of the pictures in James' set), one carried the sword vertically to fit safely through crowds and narrow roads in peacetime - where one could face severe legal sanctions for unauthorized fights. One must note that any ryu, no matter how old, might also have been influenced by the hundreds of years of Edo culture, and adopted a peacetime method of sword bearing.
snip
I have never seen a sword held in any historical pictorial representation in which it "projects" out sideways at an angle from the body, as one sees in some iaido schools. There are so many changes in iaido styles from technique to how the sword is held to etiquette to sitting - this is not a slight on iaido, anymore than noting that a zebra is different from a domestic horse is a slight on a horse.
I imagine that'
a. That as the period no longer really thought of battlefield fighting - rolling on the ground, drawing one's sword while in a clinch, etc., - and found themselves indoors, and no longer remembering or even caring about the original meaning of the forms they practiced, they simply "drooped" from iidori to seiza, no longer realizing how different the embedded meaning of these two similar looking postures were. In the process, they may well have created some new gokui or explanations to explicate their altered forms.

With respect

Ellis Amdur

***********

Thanks Ellis

Outside of MJER and SMR I've never heard of anyone putting forth the theory or belief that people actually wore the swords that way as civilian wear in the real day-to-day world.We have the privilege of having preeminent historical researches and scholars here occasionally, as well as a plethora of Koryu exponents who seems to echo a voice in one accord. "They never wore them that way in real day to day life." Yet this belief remains. At some point in time it seems to require a sort of blind "belief" dudn't it?

Your descriptions of the changing of the Kata and those who later became "teachers" copying these things and then attaching Bunkai to what was essentially never done anyway makes sense.
Contrary to "beliefs" I'll go by the photos, writings, teaching, drawings, and experiences of those like yourself and many others here who have written much the same thing, and wieght them against what appears to be a singularly held belief from Iai groups- although some of them don't seem to buy it either.


****************************
Ellis writes

One other point regarding how the sword is carried is the historical context, AND how true the various ryu are to the historical period which they claim lineage. In other words, a ryu could be 600 years old in origin, but maintain reiho of a more recent period through which they passed.


****************************
Although I could not state it so well It is how I see their view regarding this admittedly narrow topic. I write it off as modern stylistic influence on a Koryu.

Thanks Again

Dan

Dan Harden
16th February 2002, 03:53
Deleted (sorry)
Dan

Ben Bartlett
18th February 2002, 05:15
I just wanted to point out again the excerpt I pasted above which did seem to indicate that, at the very least, samurai within the MJER/MSR lineage did wear the daito at an angle (if other ryu say theirs were not worn at an angle, I believe them). Now, the angle indicated within this writing was a less pronounced one than we wear it at now (the tsuka-gashira was in front of the center of the body, not the tsuba), which makes sense, given the fact that the shoto was worn across the body, with its tsuba in front of the center (again according to this writing), but nonetheless, the writing indicates that the daito was worn at an angle. So yes, the angle has become more pronounced, but there was an angle there in the first place.

Dan Harden
18th February 2002, 05:24
Ben
Just wanted to point out that
1. yes we get that.
2. No-thing historically (densho, pictures, photopgraphs) supports that EXCEPT for MJER.

Everyone in the Koryu community who has posted, as well as several Historians don't believe that it was done as a day to day practice "oustide" the dojo.

Looking through the Archives (as I have been asked to do) what don't you understand about Fridays, Bodifords, Skoss, Amdurs, Lowry,Murimoto,Long,Threadgill,Williams, Hartman, Harden, Hyataku, Dunham, Beird's posts on the topic?

Seems we will never agree-so why bother dicussing it anymore?

Peace
Dan

Brian Dunham
18th February 2002, 13:40
I have a hard time believing that ALL ryu followed ONE way of doing anything. I do believe, from my own research, that wearing the sword angled slightly inward is an important part of the Hayashizaki/Eishin Iai, perhaps all the way back to it's origins. I understand that most ryu (outside of schools of the Hayashizaki lineages) do NOT teach this. I used to think that this was a modern adaptation of my own school. However, I began to look for reasons that either A: it should be done this way, and B: it should be changed to this way. I found, over the years, plenty of A and none of B. What would be the motivation for making it as a modern adaptation? I am not asking this question to be sarcastic, I would be very interested in hearing any objective comments. I also looked for evidence that this was much older than Nakayama Hakudo and Masamichi Oe. I found plenty. I understand that it is not "normal" compared to most koryu, but every ryu has it's own peculiarities.

Dan,
Regarding the densho you keep mentioning, specifically which densho have you examined that state specifically how the swords were worn by every individual of the bushi class? Have you ever seen densho from
MJER,MSR, Muraku ryu, Tamiya ryu, Hoki ryu, Shin Muso Hayashizaki ryu,or Hayashizaki Muso ryu?
You are probably right, we will never agree. However, I am always trying to look at things like this objectively. I will be the first to tell you that, as Ellis said, there have been many changes to MJER/MSR (this is probably true, to an extent, of all koryu). I believe, however, that this is not one of them.

RE:pictures on James' site, please not that only 4 of the 12 pictures show the katana worn in the obi (#3,5,6,12)(the remainder show the sheathed katana being carried hor held in one hand or propped on the floor). Of these, one is completely across the belly(#5), one is worn very vertically (#6)but the person is seated in a western style chair, so it is difficult to tell how it would look were he standing,and all but one (#3) appear to be angled at least slightly inward.

Ben Bartlett
18th February 2002, 14:04
A few things:
1. Why would a sensei back in 1936 be making it up?
2. I actually found that quote on Hyakutake Colin's web page (always a great resource).
3. As I said before, I'm not a historical expert, I'm just pointing out that there is writing which suggests that at least some people did wear it at an angle.
4. As for pictures, etc., for the sake of argument, let's assume that only people in the Hayashizaki line wore the sword that way... how many pictures would there be? Unlike today, when MJER/MSR has become very popular, back then you're talking about one school among many. Again, I'm not an expert, just pointing out that the simple lack of a photograph doesn't necessarily make it untrue (it just doesn't make it necessarily true, either).

At any rate, I'm not trying to prove that the daito was worn at a slight angle by members of the ryu (again, not the extreme angle you see today), because I don't have the expertise to do this. I don't even really have an opinion on the subject (I noticed my last post makes it look like I do, sorry about that, it was late :) ). I just wanted to point out that there seems to be at least some evidence that this might have been the case. But you are right, there's not really a point in discussing it. It's not like I have a photograph I can post to prove it or anything. And if it wasn't worn that way, then well, shoot. :) It darn well should have been, because some of the MJER techniques work better with it worn at a slight angle. :D

:burnup:

Dan Harden
18th February 2002, 14:53
It is such a small point that it is becoming embarassing to keep talking about it. We are to small in numbers to keep talking about something long after everyne has posted their own views (which is all many have)and reading the information offered from PHD's in historical research.
Brian
Your densho, his densho, their densho, doesn't matter. It isn't about what a school did or taught. I offered it with the expamples of input that other proponents keep using here. At any rate it isn't about your school or anyone elses The draw is not the discussion either. It would appear, as many have offered, of those arts with Iai, they have draws from lowered Tsuka as well and some from higher .
>>>>> It's about day to day wear.<<<<<
It isn't about lowering the tsuka to draw-
it's about getting through the crowd without being a Moe , Larry, Curly turning with a plank sticking out. In short it has nothing to do with your school-at all.
It appears that the only reason it keeps coming up is that your school is the only one who keeps insisting that
>>>>They were worn that way "outside" day to day.<<<<

In that, you appear to stand alone-but then again as I continually have pointed out and Ellis agreed, you would have too. You would be whacking everyone in the crowd and pretty much couldn't go anywhere without causing or getting into- trouble.

off topic
I wonder if some people(present company excluded) have Samurai illusions-think about what a pain in the butt it would be to wear a brace of swords all day long. No wonder they got smaller and thinner and the tuska got shorter. Who was it that said what a curse it would be to be reborn Samurai.

Dan

Ben Bartlett
18th February 2002, 15:48
I'm sorry Dan, I really shouldn't keep this discussion going, but I just can't help myself.

Absolutely none of what I am about to say proves that it was worn that way outside, but I'm going to mention all of it anyway:

1. While it is true wearing it the way I described earlier does cause it to stick out a bit, the difference (on me at least) is about 3 inches. Frankly I don't think it's enough to make me any more likely to bang into people.

2. If you wore a sword all the time, you'd get used to where it was, and learn to move accordingly. That goes for either way of wearing it. Frankly, if you don't want to bang into other people, the best way to wear it would be nearly straight up and down.

3. The Hayashizaki-ryu was, for most of its existence, centered in Tosa. Considering its location, I don't think we're talking bustling center of commerce, here. They may not have had to adapt the way they wear the sword the same way someone in, say, Edo would have had to.

Anyway, none of that proves a damn thing, just some stuff to think about.

As for the off-topic, yeah, it would be a pain in the butt to wear a brace of swords all day long. I'm just picturing riding the subway wearing daisho. The poor people sitting down would probably keep getting whacked in the head.

Brian Dunham
18th February 2002, 15:49
Dan,
Please forgive me. I was totally ignorant of all the PHDs that had offered thier views here on this topic. I was also unaware of all the MJER/MSR people that keep insisting that this was done this way (we say that our tradition teaches this, but I hadn't seen anyone insist that this was done by all samurai).I am aware, though, of many koryu that do Iai wearing their swords horizontally(TSKSR,Onoha Itto Ryu,Shinto Munen Ryu,MJER/MSR, Tamiya Ryu, Mugai Ryu,Kashima Shinto Ryu,bla bla bla) So, all koryu that wear thier swords horizontally for Iai, just do it in the dojo? It would seem to be a Waste to have 2 different ways of wearing the sword. Wouldn't it make more sense to just train the way you would wear them outside the dojo, or am I being silly? I'm sorry for not seeing all the posts by the PHDs that show that you are right. Maybe my computer filters them out.
BTW, I understand that it would be a lot less clumsy to wear them 'your' way, but maybe there were other considerations that dictated priorities(saya out of the way,or quick access to your weapon). I believe Ellis did make the distinction between what was important in sengoku era and what late Edo/Meiji photos appearred to show.
Again, please forgive my ignorance.

Brian Dunham
18th February 2002, 15:56
Ben,
You make a good point about the rural nature of Tosa. Also, 'nearly straight up and down' is what Dan is advocating. Maybe some people did it this way, who knows?
As for the trouble of wearing a pair of swords all day long, this isn't much different than a LEO wearing a heavy duty belt(probably much heavier than 2 swords)all day, every day, or a Soldier or Marine that has to wear web gear or LBV, flak vest , rifle, and kevlar all day long. I've been there, I'd rather have to wear the swords.

Dan Harden
18th February 2002, 16:03
Once again you have to go to the bad place eh Brian.

There is a distinction. It has been discussed at length. It's there to read. Iai in the dojo as opposed to oustide has been discussed. READ! And It doesn't matter if you agree. Just make your point.
The only one who seems to get his panties in a bunch over it here is you.
Just like your comment to Mark F. "You can't comment on my art till you've practiced it for twenty years.".......please

I won't reduce myself to the level of your last response.
You need to lighten up.

Dan

Ben Bartlett
18th February 2002, 16:41
Also, 'nearly straight up and down' is what Dan is advocating.

Oh, well, in that case, he is right that it would make it easier to walk around in a crowd. In continuing with the Tosa theory, though, I was reading over some histories, and they all seem to agree that once the Hayashizaki-ryu went into Tosa, it didn't come back out again until the 20th century. So we're talking about a small group of people (relatively speaking), out in farm country, on an island. If a few dozen people in Nebraska walked around with their belts on backwards, would anyone notice? This seems to be a similar situation. Again, this doesn't mean that it happened, but it does seem possible.

Brian Dunham
18th February 2002, 17:10
"you can't comment on my art till you've practiced it for twenty years"

I don't believe I've ever said that, please don't put words in my mouth or twist the context of my comments. I had at one point reccommended that one should have some first hand knowledge of whatever one chooses to criticize, and I stand by that. Talk about what you know, ask about what you don't know. All I have asked of you, Dan, is to provide sources for you arguments, so we can all see for ourselves, instead of just alluding to these sources. The specifics of wearing swords is not something I can recall being discussed at length in more than 1 or 2 books. I want to see the historical evidence so I can come to/modify my own conclusion.

Also, please direct me to the threads where this has been discussed so that I can read them.

Rennis
18th February 2002, 17:19
Not to bring this thread any further off topic but...


Have you ever seen densho from MJER,MSR, Muraku ryu, Tamiya ryu, Hoki ryu, Shin Muso Hayashizaki ryu,or Hayashizaki Muso ryu?

Now seems like a good time to clear up a misconception regarding Hoki ryu and its relationship to Hayashizaki ryu that I have been meaning to correct for awhile. While it is popularly believed that Katayama Hisayasu was a student of Hayashizaki, it turns out that they had absolutely no connection what so ever and there is no relationship between the two schools (even I got tricked into thinking they were related in my earlier research into Hoki ryu due to modern iai source books continually quoting and misquoting the same handful of sources, which turned out to be wrong in the first place). I will bring this comment more on topic (or is it less off topic) by saying I learned this by actually studying the Katayama Hoki ryu densho. Interestingly enough, traditionally Hoki ryu also wore the sword on the side, not at an angle (the reason being that that is just where you wear the sword when wearing armor). That said alot of current Hoki ryu groups do wear it at an angle. When asked why, the only answer I have really heard given is that it is due to the bleed over from practitioners learning the seitei gata first and developing habits from there.

I also have pictures of a Hayashizaki Shin Muso ryu densho from the Meiji period here in front of me and in giving it a quick scan I don't see anything written about the placement of the sword in the obi in it off hand. It does have illustrations of the techniques, but these are almost stick figure-ish in style and don't really show anything regarding sword placement either. I have also seen MJER densho as well and they were also inconclusive in that regard, again due to the nature of the drawings and such.

Best,
Rennis Buchner

Earl Hartman
18th February 2002, 19:26
Regarding the angle of the sword, a few speculations:

1) If you are doing iai from either a seiza or iaigoshi position, it will, of course, be impossible for the sword to be vertical. The floor will get in the way.

2) I do not know about the drawing techniques of other shcools, but in the basic MJER draw as I was taught, the idea is to draw out the sword so that until the last possible moment the tsukagashira is pointing directly at the enemy's eyes, the edge is still up, and the hand is gripping the tsuka from underneath. This accomplishes a number of things: 1) it is sort of a "mestubushi", the idea being to startle the enemy and draw his attention to the tsukagashira that is approaching his face, 2) since the blade is straight out and the edge is still up, the direction of the eventual cut has not yet been telegraphed since the edge has not been turned and the blade is (or should be) hidden behind the tsuba due to the angle of the draw, and 3) insofar as possible, the wrist of the sword drawing hand (and the swordsman) is shielded.

Now, I will agree straight away that the eventual cut that results from a draw like this is going to lack serious cutting power unless one has really practiced quite a bit. I recall how "unnatural" it felt when I was first learning it. However, as I was taught that the target was either the eyes/temple or the throat, and that the finishing stroke was the following kirioroshi, this first cut does not have to be strong enough to cleave steel.

To do a draw in this way, the sword needs to be positioned in the center of the body so that it can be drawn straight out, not from the side. Does this necessarily mean that you must walk around with the tsuba (or the tsukagashira) over the navel (I have heard both explanations) and with the sword sticking out behind you? No. You bring it into that position when you want to draw it, a matter of a few nanoseconds for an experienced swordsman.

This is not intended as a comparison of the efficacy of the MJER draw as compared to that of other schools, BTW, so don't nobody get testy. I don't want to get into a "DTSWW" ("Dude, That Stuff Wouldn't Work") discussion.

Dan Harden
18th February 2002, 20:21
Hey Bud

I was hoping I could get you further drawn into the Tanto-jutsu thread in the members lounge and some more eloguant armors dicussion like the old days......

Any way
I don't think we are even talking about what Ryu's do. MJER has their own theory about cutting as does everyone else. It all good.
But rather how the Samurai as a group wore ther swords among the public at large.
A silly rather narrow topic.

Now go post something meaningful and substantial about armor so we can yak- instead of this fooforall :D

Thanks
Dan

Earl Hartman
18th February 2002, 20:26
Hey, Dan. I'll check out the thread and see if I have anything more to add.

Cady Goldfield
18th February 2002, 23:25
Sword-Wearing Snootches
(with Apologies to Dr. Seuss)

On the island of Snitchel in Faraway Sea
There lived clans of Snootches, as proud as can be.

They loved being warriors and serving their lords
But most of all, Snootches loved playing with swords.

They fought in great battles, but when those were through, they'd take to the streets for a sword duel or two. You see, Snootches were such a combat-prone crew, that when peacetimes arose, they had nothing to do. They fought over insults no matter how slight ("I just saw your mother. She's ugly, alright!").

Now, Snootches in battles had much different needs
than Snootches in street scenes: the former used steeds.

Those Snootches on horseback would find their great swords
could whack flank and saddle unless they tipped forwards.

So horse-riding Snootches adjusted their sheath ...horizontally -- which left enough space underneath.

And one added bonus was with such an angle, a foot-soldier Snootch couldn't grab the sheath's dangle.

But back in the city, with crowds and tight spaces, horizontal-kept swords put a Snootch in bad graces. In alleys and tea shops, on streets and in court, a sword worn that way could make tempers grow short.

All it would take was a whack on the duff for a duel to get started and things to get rough.

So street-strolling Snootches adjusted their blade...vertically -- needing less space to evade.

Now, every so often a Snootch would sit down, on cushion or chair during sojourns in town.

Whenever that happened, the sword was re-shifted -- depending on how the seat lowered or lifted. And upon how much space there was fore and a-stern to accommodate movement - standing up with quick turn.

It was all common sense; there were no hard, fast rules. The Snootches wore swords as their everyday tools.

But times now are different. Snootches no longer fight. They hang out and sing karaoke all night. There's only old photos, in vague shades of gray, to provide us with hints of their ancestors' way.

If those Snootches of old could come back for a chat, they'd probably wonder why there's such a spat over whether they wore their swords sideways or straight. They'd say, "Don't you have better things to debate??"

"We wore swords at angles permitting mobility, adjusting the slant to maintain our agility.
When shifting from horseback to floor seat or crowd, we simply switched angles as the setting allowed.

"To seek deeper meaning in such simple deed, makes us wonder if maybe you folks have the need
to get on with your lives and spend more time in shugyo. The answer will come to you there, not on E-Budo."

;)

James Williams
18th February 2002, 23:38
And now we know the rest of the story...

Cady that was good.


James

Dan Harden
19th February 2002, 03:12
Cady you're amazing. Tommorrow I shall bow to you!!

Hey do you still have the one you wrote into the Iai list years ago? That was a riot. Start a thread. I'll contribute the O sensei beach head war story I wrote.

ya kill me
Dan

Ben Bartlett
19th February 2002, 14:12
I submit to your superior rhyming skills. :smilejapa

Cady Goldfield
19th February 2002, 14:41
Originally posted by Ben Bartlett
I submit to your superior rhyming skills. :smilejapa

Once again, the pen proves mightier than the sword... well, at least from a distance of many miles. :wave: I'm sure Dan will remind me that "miles" is the crucial measure when we're training tonight.

:laugh:

Cady

M.W. Jones
19th February 2002, 19:59
Cady,
The Seuss post was magnificent. Does this secret pen stroke of yours have a name. Is it a secret mountain style? Seussuio Ryu?
Kiro-Seuss?

We are all Kazoo...shed. :eek:

M.W. Jones
MSR
Mixed Bujustu
1st kyu penjitsu

pgsmith
19th February 2002, 20:24
Thanks Cady, your Dr. Seuss imitation is priceless! It also got me into trouble for laughing out loud when I'm supposed to be working. (again!)

Cheers,

Cady Goldfield
20th February 2002, 04:16
Originally posted by M.W. Jones
Cady,
Does this secret pen stroke of yours have a name. Is it a secret mountain style? Seussuio Ryu?
Kiro-Seuss?

It's more like Seuss Army Knife :)

cg