Judo Choking Hazards - when to be concerned

[Scanderson]

One of the things about Judo that has me concerned is the application of chokes in Randori. In my former club, our chokes had to be applied under a strict criteria, applying broad area pressure to the cartoid arteries and/or windpipe. As I understand it, this is the proper manner in which chokes should be applied for safety reasons. Recently, I have several times had my windpipe choked by sharp, small area force, which feels quite unusual and makes me wonder if greater dangers lie ahead, such as a crushed larynx, etc. I thought applying sharp force (note: I am distinguishing from compression, which I understand is permissable) to windpipes, larynxs and adams apples - and even once a forearm to my lower lip pressing into my teeth - was illegal in sport judo? An example might be a knuckle in the trachea, or knuckles pressing on the inner portion of the larynx during a collar chokes. This strikes me as pressure point fighting, not Judo - and if not done carefully...extremely dangerous. Either way, I tap out before damage occurs, but it does have me concerned somewhat.

Are my concerns unfounded? Is it in fact permissable to choke the windpipe in judo by using sharp small area pressure? Or, is the object to use whatever methods available to get a submission (e.g. painful pressure)? I don't mind playing within the rules, but I am afraid I might hurt someone accidently if I choke them incorrectly. I like rough and tumble as much as anyone, but safety is one of the reasons I chose Judo. How do I know if a choke is being applied incorrectly? Up until now, I thought it all centered mostly around blood supply via the cartoids.....I was also told that we could not entirely cut off the air supply in judo chokes - only restrict the air supply. Is this correct? Further research into chokes indicate that most choke fatalities occur due to crushed windpipes....particularly in law enforcement restraint as a result of not putting the pressure on the cartoids and instead on the windpipe.

Anyone want to be so kind as to share their opinions on this matter? I feel like I am missing the point when it comes to chokes! Thanks in advance for the help!

Best regards.

Stephen C. Anderson

[hector gomez]

Scanderson, you are absolutelty correct in class doing
friendly randori I really believe the cartoid arteries
should be your main focus,now in competition it is a
very well known fact that every one pretty much gets
the choke wherever they can and that includes sometimes part or
the whole trachea/windpipe.

I believe this is standard judo training,now some bjj
schools do not adhere to this policy and basically
the whole neck is fair game all the time.

If and when you get caught with a choke that affects the front
part of the neck the small bony part of the windpipes gets
bruised pretty bad and swallowing becomes difficult making
soup your #1 dish at the dinner table.

Bottom line it can be dangerous because just like ankle locks
sometimes does not give you enough time to tap before something
breaks, the trachea/windpipe can also break before there is time to
tap which can possibly be fatal.

Most chokes that one gets caught in atleast should give you time to
slightly move your head to release the pressure from the front
of the neck,I have found that the hardest time that one is not able
to do this is when your legs are completey immoblized and you
cannot move an inch,then if someone gets you in a front neck choke, it's time to tap quickly.

Hector Gomez

[Tuomas]

Scanderson, I suggest you read

http://www.ijf.org/commission/ed-rp-02.html

(from judoinfo website), a medical article about judo chokes.
The spooky part is, as you'll find in the article, chokes can
kill you even hours after the choke was originally applied.

I myself tap out the second someone establishes a good chokehold
on me and I know I would have a hard time getting out of it.

Tuomas Peltomäki

[efb8th]

Hi, Stephen and all.

The most important point of the article is NO fatalities in contest beginning in 1882. Close records have been kept, and no fatalities. In at least one of the arrest deaths, my immediate reaction was "Nobody knew kappo!"

I think a rational analysis would conclude that you're more likely to be struck by lightning than choked to death on a judo mat, and that's after 25 years of competition.

Regards,

[MTripp]

In almost every instance in the arrest deaths, the proper CVR (carotid vascular restraint) was not being used, but rather the old "bar choke". I have an old LAPD manual and the bar choke will kill you. This is kind of like the judo kadaka jime but the entire forarm is placed in front of the neck like a "bar" (hense the name), and then you pull.

The problem is, street thugs don't go to the same school as you do, so they don't know to tap!

IMHO there is never any reason to attack the windpipe, in Randori, shiai, or the street, unless you want to hurt someone. The classic hadaka works much better when you attack the tounge rather than the windpipe.

For the street, with people not knowing to tap, then you must use a CVR that will not do injury.

[MarkF]

Ex-LAPD Chief of Police Gates once said, in defense of using the baton on the windpipe was "Black people are more succeptible to the choke than "normal people." He said that on TV, about six months before being forced out. Ya never know.

As far as sharp pressure you mean of the hand or dogi (that too can be sharp force applied choking.

The article Tuomas posted was the one I had in mind (thanks, Tuomas) as Dr. Koiwai has been in judo since there was no judo.:)

I know in my dojo no one under sixteen could use them except for very kata-like practice where everyone was under the gun so to speak, and were taught to be careful, IE, tapping out.

There has been a lot of discussion for a long time concerning Peter's concerns, but nothing he mentioned is not legal for shiai. While many say that naked, thumbs, knuckles against the trachea/larynx are against the spirit of judo (that is a personal thing, not a regulation), Dr. Kowai has pointed out that the one hadaka jime done in any fashion is legal. He sites this as the only choke "meant" to be applied to the windpipe, and the shinban will, or should, stop a match once a person is prevented from inhaling. I remember it well because it was at my very last shiai in my final match that I was choked out of the tournament, and I had not tapped, so the shinban did stop the match. That also was a first, as I had never been successfully choked out of a match (that was a shiai at UCSB, I believe, Brian G.)

There are more than a few thread here on the topic so let me bump them up or bring up the pics. Those, btw, are by courtesy of Ben Holmes. If you search rec. martial arts Ben H. was involved in a lengthy discussion of whether or not it was legal to choke any area other than the carotids. The idea in every choke but hadaka-jime is to block the carotids.

Give me a few minutes to find them.

Mark

[MarkF]

I'll give you the links to the threads, but since most are from Ben Holmes collection of photos from his books, the picture links will not work. They can, however, be found (some anyway) at http://www.bestjudo.com , Ben's new website.

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2040&highlight=shime+waza

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2305&highlight=shime+waza

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2315&highlight=shime+waza

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2990&highlight=shime+waza

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2990&highlight=shime+waza

*******

These are only the threads I found using the forum search hack by entering shimewaza, so if any of you want to find more on this, I am betting the majority are under chokes.

The new forum search feature is fantastic. It took all of three seconds for these threads to come up and I'm using a dial-up connection. You will find it near the bottom of the page, the first page when clicking or jumping to "Judo forum." I highly recommend it. As I said, the links to the pictures won't work (in most cases. Any not from the rain.org ISP may still be operative).

Since Ben has given me permission to use any of his pictures let's see what's up.

[MarkF]

http://www.bestjudo.com/article1.shtml

This has most of the pics on hadakajime with comments by Karl Koiwai, MD, and others well respected in judo and specifically concerning where and how chokes "should be" applied.

I read this a while back and it is a good read on the subject. Click on the pics to enlarge them.

(Thanks, Ben H.)

This always does bring out a good discussion. If anyone wants to correct the above links to the judo forum threads I posted above this one, please do, or start a new thread, if it discusses something not covered here.

The E-budo links are from Y2K.

Mark

[Scanderson]

Thanks - Very useful those links. I particularly enjoyed EFB8th's comment -"thinly disguised atemi" - that is precisely what I experienced: Strikes to my trachea with pressure applied afterwards so that it looked like a choke. This may or may not have been purposeful - in fact, this may be a side effect of speed and circumstance. But then again, it may not have been.

Either way, I need to get up to speed and play at the same level, so I will spice things up a notch. My problem is....I don't want to injure anyone. Therefore, I will talk to my instructor and see if I can learn how to do this properly before making this a random experiment of force.

My thanks to all that responded.

Stephen C. Anderson

[Ben_Holmes]

Thanks Mark, for "advertising" my article on the subject.

It was basically done in response to someone (who shall remain nameless) who tried to argue that all Judo chokes are "blood strangles"... over on rec.martial-arts.

There *is* a reason for this common misperception in Judo. Many instructors don't like taking unreasonable chances with possible injuries, and who can blame an attitude like this? And one 'casualty' of this, is a more intense concentration on Okurierijime's, as opposed to Hadakajime's... and even when Hadakajime is taught, it's taught (or perhaps emphasized) as a strangle, which is certainly *one* proper way of doing it.

You generally end up learning the "pain-compliant" forms of Hadakajime in competition.

The way I learned to do it... take your right hand, palm down, in front of you pointing to the left. Clasp palm to palm, your left hand is now palm up, right thumb *under* left palm, left thumb over right fingers. Now, rotate the point of your right wrist just like a belly dancers hips... first down, then in towards yourself, then up. (The palms will swivel a little for the wrist movement, unless you're more supple than me!) Practice that movement until it's fluid. Now, just place the inside point of your right wrist *below* the "adam's apple" of your opponent, and rotate your wrists... the pressure should levitate the adam's apple upward. It is intensely painful... Do it *slowly* and with full knowledge of the danger of playing with someone's trachea!!

It's not as effective as the various Okuri's and Katahajime's, since the opportunities are fewer. But it should be in your repetoire.

[MarkF]

Hi, Ben,
Well, that is what your site is for, to instill more discussion, on books or other associated topics.

I recently bought my first new dogi in some twenty years (Mizuno, single weave which is nearly the same as the Tiger Claw and Budo Brand dogi I had used for so long). One thing I noticed about the Mizuno is the stiffness in the lapel[s]. So when you mention the lapel chokes, I wish I had this one when I competed. It really does dig, and if whipped into a choke (where the atemi comes in) it can do some real damage. Just a thought on "sharp" v blunt edged chokes.

The knucle[s] and thumb described by Ben are old tricks learned in the trade. It is painful, but while most of us are taught to capture uke and apply increasing pressure to the eventual tap out, sometimes after burners take over and these do come into play.

BTW: Ben, you first wrote to me after I had started a thread on chokes, and you sent the discussion on Rec. martial arts and also the pics of the different judoka doing hadaka jime.

The way you describe hadaka reminds me of Mifune's standing naked strangle, which amplifies what you may be doing on a seated uke. I haven't found that pic on your site, but it is worth a look.

Another pic you had scanned was a "what choke is this thread" here, which I think was a thrust choke which Mifune had on while laying next to uke. The knuckes were on the inside of his choke hand, and were applied much in the same way described here. I should search again to find it, but the picture won't come up.
*****

As to injuries and deaths in judo, I'm posting the study done by E. Karl Koiwai, published in 1996. It may be here in part all ready, but is interesting in which type of technique do NOT cause major injury.

It'll be in a new thread.

Mark

[MarkF]

BTW: The comment that "smothering" is another type of shime-waza is what I was told when I was young. It was the only waza permitted to be done by juniors of that day and was used in osaekomiwaza and was frequently a tap-out.

Mark

[Ben_Holmes]

The knucle[s] and thumb described by Ben are old tricks learned in the trade. It is painful, but while most of us are taught to capture uke and apply increasing pressure to the eventual tap out, sometimes after burners take over and these do come into play.

Are you sure you understood me correctly? I went into rather close detail of how my hands clasp each other, but the pressure to the adam's apple is with the portion of the *inside* right wrist closest to the base of the right thumb.

The whole technique is basically to take the sharpest portion of your hand, (other than a finger!) and push the adam's apple upward towards uke's head. Just place your right forefinger horizontally (pointing left) under your adams apple, and push up towards your chin... this is the basic underlying form of the technique (the way I do it)

It gives me two arrows to my bow... for if uke can pull my arm out of precise placement, or turn his head, it just shifts into pressure against the carotid artery... not as *effective* as Okurieri, but works!

Re: Tsuki Kome Jime, I'll have to post that again! It's a worthwhile technique from time to time, and not commonly taught.

[MarkF]

It was a generalization Ben, but yes, I remember the thread and your description. I particularly liked the pic of Mifune and that choke as tori/uke are laying side by side.

Mark

[Ellis Amdur]

I do recall a fatality in Japan due to a strangle. I believe it was in the late 70's or early 80's. A junior high school student was killed, accidentally, by his judo instructor. It made national news, and was the subject of discussion on various talk TV shows, etc., as it was, I believe the only fatality that anyone had heard of. The primary speculation was that it was a "ni do jime." It is believed that if you stangle someone to unconsciousness or nearly so, lighten up the pressure, and then restrangle them, this is potentially fatal. I forget all the medical explanations, having to do with baro-receptors (don't even know if I'm spelling it right), but my understanding was that the decrease in blood pressure, the sudden release and second restriction generates a reaction in the nervous system which makes it much harder to restart breathing.

Again, this is the imperfect memory of someone who chose psychology to avoid hard sciences. At any rate, there was a fatality in Japan and I find it quite surprising that it wasn't part of Kowai's statistics.

Ellis Amdur

[Ben_Holmes]

I find it quite surprising that it wasn't part of Kowai's statistics.

My 1970 copy of the AAU-USJF Judo Handbook has the article on "How safe is choking in Judo" by Dr. Koiwai. The article thus dates at *least* that early.

Another article in the same handbook by Dr. Koiwai was titled just "Medical Report", and had a listing of injuries in Judo... the article referred to "A survey undertaken by the Medical Committee of U.S. Judo Federation from November 30, 1961, revealed 70 major accidents and injuries..."

So, I'm just guessing here :) but perhaps his statistics predated that fatality?

By the way, this is the first time I've heard of a fatality in Judo. Seems I need to get busy and keep caught up on the news?