Tournaments in Norris' Day

[Charlie Kondek]

Hi, all. I'm reading Chuck Norris' autobiography (co-written with Joe Hyams), The Secret of My Inner Strength and I'm at the part where Norris is describing tournaments he fought in during the 1960s. I'm a little confused about some points.

If it was no-contact or semi-contact, why were the participants divided into weight classes?

Was grappling allowed? Norris writes that one of his opponents used judo in his tournament fighting, and he himself describes grabbing an opponent's lapels and sweeping him before punching him in the ribs for an ippon.

What was full contact fighting, and under what conditions did it take place?

[Sochin]

Jay T. Will edited up some home movies of those old matches and put them out as a 3 vid set...it is cool. Joe Lewis does the narration.

Joe's famous fight against Greg Baines, 1970, is on it, the first fight with two Karate competitiors, striped to the waist and wearing boxing gloves, engaged in a professional full-contact fight.Baines fought as a traditionalShotokan fighter, Joe as a new fangled JKD player. This was the birth of full contact karate which became American kickboxing because Joe won it, taking the wind out of traditional karate's sails.

Anyway, Chuck is on the tapes along with super Dan, Bill Wallace, Mike Stone etc. They are fighting point matches but some of these no contact fights were heavier handed than later full contact. Some were major national tournaments held in a church basement...things were not like today. I believe that you could throw your opponent IF you followed up with a punch or kick. Rules changed from place to place and were't always followed anyway - no one knew they were making history or heros like they do today. No one was fighting for the camera or the endorsement package.

[Charlie Kondek]

Thanks, Ted-sensei. Wish I could get more replies to this from old-timers who did the circuit in those days. I'd love to get my hands on those movies.

Almost finished with Norris' book. I have new-found respect for him. I'd always admired him even if I didn't always agree with him or like his movies. The book makes him seem really genuine.

[hector gomez]

I believe the whole concept of tournament fighting has
been doomed from the begining,the whole idea of who strikes
first in a fight as being a barometer to determine the better fighter is not within the reality of a real fight.

The percentages of ending a fight even with one good solid
shot is not very high against a rough and tough opponent,I
can see how the old timers had a lot of frustration build up
from losing to quicker fighters that struck first even thou
they did the damage a split second later,I believe this reason is
why most competitors of that era started to venture into
kickboxing,ofcourse IMO the worst thing that happened was
trying to market the new sport as "full contact karate" which
in reality it was not,instead of kickboxing.

The way norris,mike stone,lewis,mullins and that school of fighters
fought was basically the way it is fought in traditional tournaments
today were sweeps and takedowns followed up with attacks are allowed
and ofcourse someone always gets nailed due to the setup structure
of these tournaments,no pads ,no contact "yeah right"and who strikes first.

I believe that when the pioneers of american karate tournaments
started venturing into fullcontact(kickboxing)some made it and some
did not,after that transition period most tournaments adopted the
foam equipment altering the strategy and mindset of tournament fighting for ever, all of the sudden proper posture was not as important when executing a technique as it once was and takedowns and follow ups were a no no.

tournaments have been here over 40 yrs in this country ,it will never
grab the attention of the main public,because if you can't convince your own grandmother of the reality of it,and if she can't distinquish who's doing what to whom ,it's a tough sell to general public.


Hector Gomez

[Ishinguy]

Hi Hector, Although I am not up on all of the rule changes, there have been some in recent years. I beleive in the old Karate tournaments you woulkd win after scoring 3 points, now I think it is 10 points so it is not just the quickest guy to land a shot who wins.
Nick Barrett

[Sochin]

A google search for Jay T. Will and Legendary Tapes didn't get me anything...

I now he died but his club may still be going and may be selling them:

Jay T Will Karate Studio
5 E Columbus St
Columbus, OH
614-837-7488

They really were home videos in home video boxes and no packaging or production info or how to re-order stuff or anything. I've had them for years and forget all of this.

A lot of it is pretty boring, :) :D

Even Benny the Jet has some time on it!

[Steven Malanosk]

In the good old days, there was not as much fancy tripple techniques. But the techniques where totally realistic!

The people mentioned so far, where not known for controling their technique. Very few if any where.

Most famouse because of black belt mag etc. are the Caif. boys. On the New York Scene and also in Texas, it was a free for all! The early NYC events, where controlled by the likes of Masters, Peter Urban, Muang Gyi, Don Nagle, Gary Alexander, George Cofeild, Tadashi Nakamura and Henry Cho. There was much better protocol, with strong leaders in charge. There where also the race riots of SunnySide Gardens, where my teacher Peter Urban, had to start shooting into the air to get everyones attention. Anyone remember the snafu behind masters Al Gotay and Johnny Kuhl carrying their service revolvers at events?

Disqualifications back then, meant somthing really crucial had gone down, not a broken lip.

Ippon, meant a potential finishing blow had been delivered.

There is more technique now, but it was better then.

[hector gomez]

Boy, I miss My official karate mags

Hector Gomez

[Steven Malanosk]

Still have mine!

Even issue #1!

[hector gomez]

Steven,One of the biggest regrets I have ever had in my life was giving away about 4 boxes full of OK mags and BB mags,but I kept one a 76 circa OK special mag with Ali v.s Inoki on the cover it states"could this be the future of the martial arts?also chuck norris demontrates the heel kick.

Hector Gomez

[Charlie Kondek]

Thanks, guys. I can understand these criticisms. A lot of the karate practitioners I know, though, have a good attitude toward tournaments, like, a tournament is a good chance to get together with some other people and exchange techniques, to challenge yourself and push your envelope, but it's not the standard by which a fighter is measured. Hmmm - I wonder what tournaments were like in the OLD old days. I think somebody probably ended up unconscious, eh?

[Steven Malanosk]

NOT ALWAYS!:)

[Carlos]

I am replying to the thread of old tournaments and the reality of the execution of techniques.

I don't know if any readers are familiar with shihan Dale Jenkins but he was a great master. He had a sho-dan in Judo and a 6th dan in Isshinryu under Master Don Nagle. Anyways in the 70's if his students didn't place at a shiai they wouldn't get promoted. Has anyone else out there heard of that tradition wherein if a student doesn't take 1st place they don't get promoted????/
I describe Master Jenkins in the past tense because in 1984 he sadly passed away from cancer. 10 of his students are 6th dan or higher.

Thank you
Carlos Cavenago

[TommyK]

Greetings,

The Founder of our school (Robert G. Zychski) was a top student of S. Henry Cho, and was involved in the Madison Square Garden Tournaments in the old days. Back then they used to call a 'point' with a strike which resulted in trembling shock.

When the Founder started our school in the early 70's, he took his students to tournaments. However, around the mid-70's, or so I'm told, he had points scored on his students by opponents 7-8 feet away.

He taught his students only to block or move away from strikes that could hit you. So, when opponents threw strikes from distances that did not require blocks, his students did not block, so points were called. Additionally, when some points were legitimately scored, they were not 'trembling shock' shots, but rather light 'tags', and again points were called.

When I began the school in the 80's, we no longer went to tournaments, the school had stopped going in the mid-70's. Consequently, after 16 years in our school, I have never gone to a tournament. We just 'wail away', with no equipment and limited rules, as they did in the 60's.

Are we better off for it, I think so. Would it be beneficial to fight others outside our school, perhaps. However, I think what we do, and the tournaments of the 60's, are/were more realistic than what goes on in the 'tag' or heavily armoured tournaments of today.

Regards,
TommyK
Tom Militello
"Even if its a good excuse, its still an excuse" Kyosah

[Shitoryu Dude]

The only thing I remember about Chuck's young fighting days is that those "black gi kenpo guys" freaked him out a bit. Something about they were a little "unstable" and fought dirty as far as the accepted rules went.

By all reports, that hasn't changed too much.

:beer:

[Gene Gabel]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Hi, all. I'm reading Chuck Norris' autobiography (co-written with Joe Hyams), The Secret of My Inner Strength and I'm at the part where Norris is describing tournaments he fought in during the 1960s. I'm a little confused about some points.

If it was no-contact or semi-contact, why were the participants divided into weight classes?

Was grappling allowed? Norris writes that one of his opponents used judo in his tournament fighting, and he himself describes grabbing an opponent's lapels and sweeping him before punching him in the ribs for an ippon.

What was full contact fighting, and under what conditions did it take place?
.................................................................
Charlie,,
I could go on and on but I will give you some of the highlites from back in the day (early 70's)

Most of the big dogs made it to tournaments in the South..(I was training in one of Allen Steens schools in New Orleans then)
In that time (down here at least) there were only 2 weight divisions in sparring .. It was usually 180# and below for lightweight and above for heavy.. (at 135# in those days I was at quite a disadvantage in weight)

Anyway, most of the rules were: hard body contact and light head contact for BB and no head touch for lower belts..You were allowed a point if you did a take down or sweep and made your hit right away.

Because things were still fairly new there were lots of rules made up for each tournament.. Things like how many times you could step out of the ring (if there actually was a ring) before you were d/q.. Also what made HARD contact to the head instead of light..

One of the strangest things that I remember was Bill Wallace.. He wined and complained all the time when he took what he felt was too hard of a hit to the head ..It was a real shock to me that he made such a transition to "full contact" tournament fighting and was so damn good.

I had him for a couple of seminars and he was awesome to say the least, as was Joe Lewis and all the rest..


Gene Gabel

[tote]

Someone asked about grappling in tournaments. All the tournament rules I've read allow some form of grappling. However, it's expected to be either part of a technique, or followed by a technique within a few seconds. So a throw - yes, grabbing someone to facilitate a better strike, or a takedown, yes, all permitted. Holding someone in a bear hug or wrestling on the ground where no obvious strikes or other techniques are being used, no.

My basic understanding of the "spirit" of the rules is that you can grapple however you want, but make it fast, use technique, and finish with a strike. Don't turn it into a wrestling match, and don't spend ten minutes rolling around trying for a BJJ style "submission".

[n2shotokai]

I recall in the 70's Chuck Norris used to have annual tournament in Long Beach, California. I remember seeing the big names there, but I don't recall them competing. They did perform demos. I do recall they were controlled, multi-style tournaments and no nonsense was allowed.

The 60's were before I started but I have an instructor who was very active at that time. He and the big names on the West Coast trained together and supported one another at tournaments, demos etc.

The West Coast tournaments I am told were "traditional tournaments" in that they were full-force, any technique allowed and only effective techniques (lethal or incapacitating) counted as points. Out of control, hurting an opponent was not allowed, intentional or not. Although accidents did happen. Intentionaly hurting an opponent meant disqualification and in extreme cases complete banning from competition. Full contact was not allowed. However, if you charged an opponent and were careless enough to walk into a kick or punch you would propbably go down. Todays tippy-tap techniques were just ignored.

I understand that tournaments on the East Coast, Texas etc. were very much different.

Steve Beale

[Charlie Kondek]

Wow. I just noticed this thread was alive again.

I recently got the chance to see "Fighting Black Kings." A great way to view some of the old methods of training and sparring. I'm amazed at how much punishment these guys were taking to the body and legs! So dynamic. You hardly see karate like that anymore, do you?

[WabushiPrincess]

Can I ask a question are there any new magazines
regarding Martial Arts?
Black Belt Mag I can't seem to find.


Wabushi Princess:)

[Charlie Kondek]

I bet you'd get a lot more response to this if you started a new thread in the Member's Lounge. Only thing I can think of is, I think it's called "Inside Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated."

[WabushiPrincess]

Thank you Charlie I will look it up...

Karin Kemen:D