Kendo: Sport v/s Martial art

[Dagon]

First let me say that I really enjoy Kendo. I have been doing it for about a year and will probably be testing next month in New Orleans for 3 Kyu (I have been slow to test).

Anyways, I started this thread because in our dojo (which is a "college club") we have recently had a problem with deciding whether to be serious and formal or more informal and sport oriented. I hope that is clear.

We have two sensai (4th & 5th Dans) and two senior students (2nd Dans from Japan) and about 12 students. Most are college students, but some, like me, are older and not in school. The college students felt that the Sensai were too "tough" sometimes and politely asked if the club could be more informal and inviting to other college students (which was how the club was before they came). Long story short: one sensai left and one stayed on in a limited role. Are club is therefore somewhere in between a "serious dojo" and a "club sport".

I still enjoy it but also realize I will have to visit other dojos more often to develop at the pace I want to develop.

My questions are: Do you think Kendo can be practiced as a sport only? And is it too pretentious as a martial art for most college kids? And finally how do you personally approach Kendo?

[gendzwil]

Whether the practices are tough or not has nothing to do with whether you treat kendo as sport or martial art. In fact I'd venture to say that the most sport-oriented clubs (say, Japanese college clubs) have some of the toughest practices. When winning matches is your goal, physical and mental toughness become very important.

So having said that, I'm not sure what your problem was. Did you mean that the practices were more formal than some people cared for? Or that they were too physically challenging for what was largely a recreational membership?

My personal belief is that you should train towards proper kendo and let any tournament prowess fall out of that. How tough the classes are should be geared to a little above where the majority of students are in fitness and ability. To me, a good level is where people are thinking "I'm not sure if I can do this" while doing it and "that was great, I did it!" afterwards.

As for formality, I like to be reasonably formal during class but informal outside of class. If people find kendo too tough and formal, perhaps they should take up bowling.

Neil Gendzwill

[m a s a m u n e]

The situation that you have presented here kind of sounds like a mini version of the predicament that the swordsmen of the past have gone through. The reason that kendo was made into a sport in the first place was because it appealed more as a sport rather than a martial art to the general public, and because of that little situation with the law and martial arts. It was modernized so that the tradition would not die out. That is another thing that needs to be taken into account. I personally believe that the point of kendo, and even more so iaido, is to preserve the tradition. Even if you decide to be a little more lax, I believe that the proper etiquette observed in the dojo should remain. I would hate to see kendo take the route that judo has. My sensei is always telling me that kendo and iaido are japanese, and that it can never be anything else.

In our dojo, I have this feeling that we are practicing a more traditional version of kendo, although not quite old school, and keiko is nowhere near as tough as some other nearby dojos like Seattle. However, our sensei constantly emphasizes the cutting action made, and frowns upon strikes that "slap", "flick", or "whack". I believe that is why he is emphasizing to us beginners to raise the shinai over the head when striking. Our sensei is also constantly making comments like "if this were a bokuto or shinken..."

What I have stated in the first paragraph are my own interpretations of why kendo was made a sport based upon what I have seen and read. If I have made any wrong assumptions, I apologize in advanced.

Respectfully,

[Dagon]

Originally posted by gendzwil
So having said that, I'm not sure what your problem was. Did you mean that the practices were more formal than some people cared for? Or that they were too physically challenging for what was largely a recreational membership?

Neil Gendzwill

First, thank you for your response.

Second, it is both. A handful of us (including myself) had no problem with the physical demands or the formality. We, however, were the minority.

I think we have found a good medium but it is still to soon to know for sure.

[Earl Hartman]

Kendo is what one might call a "martial sport", rather like wrestling (not the WWF variety, but freestyle or Greco-Roman), boxing, or fencing. That is, it is derived from actual fighting, and can be very tough and aggressive, even dangerous, but has been "civilized" by the application of rules which limit the techniques one can use.

This does not mean that kendo is what some people mean when they say derisively that it is "just a sport", that is, something for wimps who are not up to doing "real" martial arts. Depending on with whom and how you train, kendo can be unbeleivavbly demanding both physically and mentally, in addition to being terrifying and incredibly painful. I've seen guys knocked down and knocked out, stabbed in the throat, or get fractured sternums from thrusts to the chest, etc. It is not for people who dislike discomfort.

However, because of the rules and how kendo has developed, the techniques used bear as much relationship to real to-the-death swordfighting as modern western fencing does to actual duelling with edged weapons. However, while the techniques may have been "civilized" the method of practice has not. For instance, I practice some traditional martial arts which preserve actual fighting techniques that have not been adapted for sport contests. Theoretically, if used properly, these techniques would be more effective if real weapons were being used than would modern kendo techniques. However, since oak weapons are used in place of real weapons, it is not possible to actually hit one another. So, one can practice with the assurance that any injury will be an accident rather than the result of murderous intent on the part of one's training partner.

Kendo practice, however, is designed so that, using practice weapons and protective equipment, the contestants can really try their best to hit each other. As a result, kendo practice is unpredictable and accompanied by quite a bit of pain. So, while it may not be a "real" martial art from a strictly technical point of view (and this is endlessly debatable), the feeling one should get in practice, ideally, should be as close to the gut-wrenching panic one might experience in a real fight.

However, this is clearly a matter of opinion. I do not know what you mean by the practices being too "formal" for some of the students, but it sounds to me that the students were interested in a leisure sport activity in which they could participate on their own terms, drawing a line beyond which they would not go, and getting upset if the practice got too tough and stretched their comfort envelope too far. This is a typically American, leisure-oriented point of view which assumes that the person practicing the art is at liberty to decide what it is he wants to do and how far he is willing to go.

This is, of course, a perfectly acceptable attitude in modern America, but it is the complete antithesis of the traditional martial arts outlook. In America, one molds the thing, whatever it may be, to one's own likes and dsilikes, always reserving the right, as an autonomus individual who takes orders from no one, to dictate terms and, if necessary, to simply stop and say "sorry, this is as far as I intend to go". In budo things are done in exactly the opposite way. One molds oneself to the demands of the art as communicated by the teacher. How one feels about this is not the point; the point is to train and to go beyond one's limits. A leisure sport is for the express purpose of making one feel comfortable. A martial art is for stretching oneself and going beyond one's limits.

It sounds like the majority of the students in the class did not really consider the instructors to be teachers, since they obviously staged a mutiny and read the instructors the riot act, after which one left (probably in disgust) and the other decided to accept a role where he agreed to not push the students too far or insist on the deference due his rank in a traditional budo setting, a traditional view which Americans find very hard to accept. Something like this could only happen in America. All instructors are faced with a similar dilemma: stick to your guns and have one or two students, or ease up so that more people will participate?

There is no easy answer.

[Charlie Kondek]

Hi, Dagon. And welcome. (Sorry, man - is that your real name? No biggie, but it's a rule you have to at least have your full name in your sig.)

Anyway, good thread. Please, tell us more about the coup your dojo-mates staged. I find it a little bizarre! As one of the "die hards," you must have been a little embarassed that they asked the instructors to lighten up. That's just not kosher kendo. Maybe the instructor that left will start a dojo elsewhere and you can join up with that one instead. As you can tell, I think the more formal setting is the proper one. Sounds like some of your club members are more interested in SCA-type fighting than kendo, which should not be divorced from the formality, as it is integral to its function. Kendo is not something you can just sort of pick up part of and leave behind others, it has very concrete rules that govern the behavior in the dojo. Of course, culture varies from dojo to dojo. But still! Can you embellish on how the whole thing came about?

I gotta tell you, when I first started reading about swordsmanship on the net, in places like this and SwordForum.com, I read a lot of backlash toward kendo, with folks asserting it is not "real swordsmanship." At first, I took some of these comments to heart. But after I carefully weighed the evidence and my opinions, and thought them through, I have to say: bull.

The argument - is it sport or vaild MA - is an old one. I have answered it for myself, it's both sport and very valid MA. Especially when you begin to visualize kendo as one aspect of a broader path that includes iaido and any other kenjutsu training you might be privileged to partake of, you begin to see the truth of the old adage that they are all "wheels on the same cart." I think Earl put it very well in his post (he usually does). Whenever you want to practice for combat you have to impose rules and this changes the nature of what you're doing to not combat. But as close as you can get to the real thing, and something which, with visualization and meditation, adequately prepares you - as much as anything will - for the real thing. I also don't buy that I can get away with things in kendo that I can't with a real blade. I know because I've tested it - the smaller attacks, harais, feints - okay, a steel sword is heavier but with some adjustment, anything I do in kendo I can do with a real blade. And of couse I know there's lots of things a real blade does that a shinai doesn't (kesa-giri, for example). This is not to say that some people don't employ tricks you could only get away with in shiai, just that I try not to use them. (Flick a kote with the flat of a blade?)

I play kendo and judo. In the kendo dojo, there is a formal routine that we go through every time we practice. We practice hard, and there's also some discussion and learning, and even a little casual joking (like during jigeiko). But we are always moving start to finish for 2+ hours, beginning and ending with seiza, rei. Now at judo, you're on your own. You come in, stretch out, and grab somebody to roll with or practice throwing with or work on whatever you wanna work on. When you want instruction, you ask it. Sensei is usually walking around giving bits of advice or rolling with the students. But nobody's there making you practice, everybody goes according to his or her own pace. There are more formal practices, but this, as I understand it, is the norm. When you're whipped, you stagger off to the side, get your breath back, and then jump back in when you're ready.

Sounds like the latter is the atmosphere some of your dojo mates were looking for. But I'm sorry, that ain't kendo.

Sorry so long. Good discussion!

[Dagon]

I just wanted to point out that I spelled "Sensei" wrong in my original post and I am embarrassed. :(

Anyways...

To expound on our situation, originally we were a "club" in every sense of the word. The two senior students (young Japanese girls) initially just wanted to practice Kendo while in the US. But, as these things go, people saw them and got interested. A club was born.

The club met on campus and grew to about 12 or so college kids and was very (very) informal and undemanding. It was two girls from Japan exposing others to something of their culture. It was a social club. It was, I know now, not Kendo.

Enter Sensei "A" (4th Dan).

Our Sensei came and whether he was invited, prompted, or just showed up I don't know. I think the senior students thought he was only going to "visit". I had only been attending for about a month prior to his arrival so I really do not know the conditions.

Man did things change! We gained structure, started learning how Kendo class should be conducted, and, most importantly, started getting better! :)

Sensei "B" (5th Dan) also starting attending about this time and helping with instruction.

A few of us really enjoyed it though. My friend (who got me into it), his wife, and I were learning and getting better. The others...well, they weren't ready for such a change. Some quit, some rarely came, etc., etc..

A month ago we had two visitors (first timers). Sensei "A" worked them hard and harder. After practice one of the Japanese girls approached Sensei "B" (in tears) about being easier on visitors. She expressed a desire (found in most of the other students as well) to relax the formality some and tone down the work out.

In her defense, she was trying to make the club more accessible to college students.

Result: Sensei "A" left and wants to start a dojo elsewhere, and Sensei "B" has stayed on and is still giving quality instruction without "appearing" to be over-bearing.

I will keep you all informed about the club's progress. I hope we continue to grow and that some of the college students decide to devote more of themselves to Kendo...then maybe Sensei will come back.

[Earl Hartman]

Dagon, just to remind you: like Charlie said, forum rules are that you must sign your posts with your full (real) name.

Regarding your club, it sounds as though the upper-rankers came without being invited, and laid down The Law before people were ready. Typical, but perhaps they should have trod a little more lightly until they knew what was up. Still, Girls (or boys) who Just Wanna Have Fun don't like being told what to do.

However, I would say that the senseis gave the students a truer taste of "Japanese Culture" than the girls did. Real kendo isn't supposed to be "fun".

[Charlie Kondek]

Wow. Thanks for the reply, Dagon. I can see where everyone is coming from. I have seen clubs in the same situation. Technically, no one is supposed to start a club unless they are a 5th dan. But kendo is so rare in this country that the authorities that govern kendo make exceptions, especially under a mentorship program. In other words, a shodan, nidan or san-san(s) starts a club, teaches basics, but periodically checks in with a mentor dojo (frequently inconveniently far away, but they make the trip anyway) so that the senseis can check their progress, make recommendations, update policies, etc. (That's the situation where I practice. It was started by a nidan - now sandan - with mentorship by some yondans and eventually came under the mentorship of a seventh dan, who sort of mentors the whole state.)

Sometimes, a couple of kendoists of rank that just want to practice get together and do just that, and they let anybody that wants to show up and try to hang with them. Sometimes, these people don't want to teach, either because they don't feel they should or because they just want to concentrate on their own skills. Sounds like that was the position your club was in before the senseis came. (Although maybe there was a little more teaching going on?)

Anyway, that's a rough situation all around. Sounds like the senseis were kind of confused, as were the students. Also sounds like Sensei A was just doing what kendo etiquette sort of demands. But if Sensei B still wants to work with the club, that's pretty cool and a valuable asset.

Regardless, sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, Dagon. Glad to hear you're giving it your all and ready to test. I've already gone on at length here, so I'll chill out until other people have a chance to chime in on your original three questions:

"Do you think Kendo can be practiced as a sport only? And is it too pretentious as a martial art for most college kids? And finally how do you personally approach Kendo?"

[Enfield]

Maybe I'm just being retarded, but kendo keiko too formal? Other than a few bows, "onegaishimasu"s, and "arigato gozaimashita"s, what is there to kendo "formality" other than paying attention and doing what you're told to do?

Oh. I think I get it now. That's very sad.

Dagon (isn't that a Philistine fish god or something?), given the unfortunate situation you're in, I have one word for you: "atogeiko." I've never met a kendo sensei who wasn't more than happy to spend five or ten minutes after class working with a student who wants to practice something.

The other suggestion I have is that a lot of the tone of a dojo doesn't come from the sensei, but the senior students. Insist that anyone junior to you observes proper etiquette and trains hard when they practice with you.

As for kendo appealing to college kids, well it just doesn't, like most martial arts. People expect practice to be easy and to never be told that what they're doing blows chunks. But dealing with that is part of the training as well.

Oh, and I don't know about the Southeast, but here in the Pacific Northwest, one year of training is the minimum for testing for sankyu, so you're not going all that slow. At my dojo, 1.5 or 2 years is much more common.

[Ian Remi]

Originally posted by Dagon
Do you think Kendo can be practiced as a sport only?Yes. Would that be bad? It's all opinion. One must first qualify the term 'sport'. It would seem to term something as a 'sport' implies something negative. There must be so called 'sports' that require just as much dedication, perseverance, skill, etc... as kendo might.

Kendo has changed considerably over the past century. How would kendoka such as Mochida Moriji compare pre-WWII kendo to present day practice? One step further, how about the perspective of Iizasa Choisai Ienao on this topic. Maybe the closest we can get is from the input of an exponent of an art such as Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu (to name one)? Obviously, there are going to be differences between TSKSr and modern ZNKR shiai kendo, what are those differences? Is there a trend growing between an art such as TSKSr and modern kendo over the years? Are the differences growing? If so, and one thinks this to be bad, what can one do to slow this down or reduce the differences between the roots of kendo (kenjutsu) and modern shiai kendo? Is this something we want? And to what extent?

I don't personally know anything but modern ZNKR kendo. I can read and research and imagine as much as I want, but I will never really know the differences between what I practice now and what its roots are.

I'd love to hear from people with koryu/kenjutsu and kendo experience.

I'm rambling again...

I'm off to go re-read the "Old School Kendo" and "Kendo, the 18th-Century Way?" threads in the sword forum archive... (Thanks for starting those Charlie! And thank you to all that gave input on those threads.

Cheers.

[hyaku]

Originally posted by m a s a m u n e

My sensei is always telling me that kendo and iaido are japanese, and that it can never be anything else.......

This I have to agree with. People initially send their kids (The main population in Japan) to a dojo to teach them a sense of respect, formality and will to try hard. They are not to worried when they finish education and Kendo. As they have become members of society and that teaching is within them. We are constantly, everyday telling kids its polite to say good morning to bow etc. So take away that formality and it won't be japanese anymore. On an opposite note people should be aware of the fact that Japan take things like the sport of Baseball and add to it all the Japanese ettiquette, kiai etc.

I would say its not formal enough. A little bit of "mutual" respect to each other as human beings does not do much harm. The ettiquette should not be interpreted as groveling to a higher level.

I think the samurai card is a bit over played. Just watched TV where they describe the Japanese riot police preparing for the World Soccer using adapted samurai weapons.
...........

Our sensei is also constantly making comments like "if this were a bokuto or shinken..."

I would have to disagree a little here. I did so many years ago but would not do so now.

As I am still doing Battojutsu in the Dojo before 4:00 p.m. when the Kendobu start practice I could easily continue by explaining basic sword principles in relation to Kendo.

However what counts in Kendo nowadays is what constitutes a good point, not a good cut. And this is what we must teach them.

I and many others are perhaps sad about this but are only just members of the ZNKR. Lets hope one day soon they sort things out before its too late.

Ninety nine percent of Kendo teachers are sports teachers. Policemen do it but they did learn it mostly at school. Their fathers are police and send them to a particular school to hopefully follow on.

I met the local prison staff recently who were in a neighbouring room at get-together. Fifty two of them and all from my
Dojo and the Judo dojo.

Out of all the fathers of students only one is not a policeman.

Hyakutake Colin

[m a s a m u n e]

About the "if this was a bokuto or shinken" thing...

I believe that my sensei only uses this to show his disdain for what he considers to be "cheap tricks" such as jerking the head to the side in order to avoid a men strike or stuff like that. He's never actually said that, but this is the message I get from him because right after such a comment, he would say things like "kendo is offensive, not defensive" and "don't stay grounded by blocking because you will get yourself stuck and create an opening on yourself" and the like. In my opinion, I think that even though the kendo strikes may not be able to cut were the shinai a shinken, each strike should be treated as lethal so one can maintain a correct, proper, and serious spirit when doing kendo.

I don't think that one can change the course that Kendo is taking. However, if it must become classified as a sport, can it not be a sport that still maintains its Japanese tradition. Isn't Sumo a sport that still maintains its Japanese tradition? I don't think that Kendo would be so bad if it became like Sumo, but again, I would hate to see the general status of Kendo in the world turn out like Judo's current situation.

Respectfully,

[Dagon]

Originally posted by Enfield
Dagon (isn't that a Philistine fish god or something?)

Yes it is! He (it) was much more though. It is Interesting reading if you can find any information on him.

Oh, and I don't know about the Southeast, but here in the Pacific Northwest, one year of training is the minimum for testing for sankyu, so you're not going all that slow. At my dojo, 1.5 or 2 years is much more common.

Hmmm. I got the impression that many people tested for 1 Dan after a year. I know personal development varies though.

Thank you, I don't feel so slow now!

(BTW it' the South West U.S. Kendo & Iado Federation)

[hyaku]

Originally posted by m a s a m u n e
About the "if this was a bokuto or shinken" thing...

I think a sportlike tradition is a good way of describing Kendo anyway

Isn't Sumo a sport that still maintains its Japanese tradition........

Yes it does and they get ?well? paid for it.
And they spend a lot of evenings at charity functions raising money and pouring people drinks. I think I could live with that!

Hyakutake Colin

[Charlie Kondek]

I tell you what, I've said it over and over again until I'm blue in the face. "Sport" is not - should not be - a bad word. Perhaps the reason it's got negative connotations is because American sportsmanship is, to my thinking, at an all time low.* But sport and sportsmanship, in my opinion, should be a badge of honor rather than a curse.

And, actually, it took kendo to teach me that. I've kind of become more interested in "sports" in a bass-ackwards way. I started off wanting to get into martial art and discovered that what kendo calls "sport" is so much more. Then it began to occur to me: shouldn't all sports be played this way? With as much reigi, respect, passion, commitment, and with that individualistic spiritual quality that kenshi bring to their art? Isn't sport art, and aren't some of the most soulful, hard-working capable artists, in fact, athletes?

I believe your average "sportsmen" work harder, display more pluck, suffer more for their art, than do your average "martial artists." I have great respect for arts and artists, but I think I'm content being a sportsman. But, again, what kendo calls sport is to me more like what most people think of when they think of art and the martial arts.

Whew! Time to get off my soap-box! Thanks for a thoughtful thread, Dagon (Amato-san). And Ian, thank you, too. Those were good threads, weren't they? Dagon, do a search through the back archives some time for those; some very thoughtful folks contributed a lot of good thoughts on the subject.




*I mean, this in an age of coke-snorting, multi-million-dollar earning, pampered crybaby baseball players, basketball players, boxers, what-have-you. Also in an age where instead of encouraging their children to display good sportsmanship, parents are erupting into deadly fistfights over a weeknight hockey game, you have to wonder if American sportsmanship isn't dead as Dillinger. And be ashamed.

[Dagon]

We had practice last night and it was great!

I just thought I'd let everyone know that Sensei ("B") began preparing us for our testing in New Orleans (which is in a few weeks). We worked on good clean mens, kotes, and dos, as well as good clean kirikyashi (sp?), and kieko. Sensei is an excellent teacher and I am glad he has stayed to work with us.

They are also having a Mudansha Taikai in New Orleans which should be fun!

Thank you all for the comments and support.

[pgsmith]

Hi Dagon,
I'm glad to hear things went well. If worse comes to worse, you could always join up with the DFW Kendo and Iaido Kyokai. They are a traditional dojo operating out of Addison and run by Russell Ichimura and David Cooper. It's a bit more of a drive, but not as far as many people I know travel to study under a good instructor. Here's a link to their web site ... http://home1.gte.net/res0f9a6/index.html
Good luck with it.

Cheers,

[Earl Hartman]

.

[Charlie Kondek]

That's weird. Earl's post is blank?

[Earl Hartman]

Well, I posted something, thought better of it, and tried to delete it, but I couldn't. I had to put something in the message box, so that's why there is a "."

Weird.

[A. Henriksson]

Posted by Hyakutake Colin:

"However what counts in Kendo nowadays is what constitutes a good point, not a good cut. And this is what we must teach them.

I and many others are perhaps sad about this but are only just members of the ZNKR. Lets hope one day soon they sort things out before its too late."

After reading at different forums I have discovered that many people dislike the fact that kendo is a sport these days and maybe even loosing even more of its martial heritage.

So if people are interested in training kenjutsu like kendo why not start a new kendo federation trying to recreate older kendo before it is like mr Colin said - too late.

[Enfield]

Yes it is! He (it) was much more though. It is Interesting reading if you can find any information on him.

You seem to have missed the point. Forum rules state that you must sign all posts with your full name. Is your given name really "A?"

[Dagon]

Originally posted by Enfield


You seem to have missed the point.

I guess I am just to daft for such subtlety. I actually thought you might be interested in ancient near-eastern religions. My mistake.

[Gene Gabel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dagon
[B]They are also having a Mudansha Taikai in New Orleans which should be fun!

...................................................
Hey Andy,
How about a post on the Taikai in NOLA (poc and such). Do you know if they are having and Iai there?
I might take the drive over from Mobile if they do..



Gene Gabel:smilejapa

[Dagon]

Originally posted by Gene Gabel
Hey Andy,
How about a post on the Taikai in NOLA (poc and such). Do you know if they are having and Iai there?
I might take the drive over from Mobile if they do..

Gene Gabel:smilejapa

Hi Gene. I don't have the paperwork in front of me so I am unsure as to whether or not Iai is involved. Sorry. I do know that they are holding a Seminar (Kendo), as well as the men's SWUSKIF qualifier, testing through 3 Dan, and the no-Dan Taikai.

This is all taking place at Tulane University the weekend of May 10-12. I believe the Seminar is $25 dollars. I will post more information tonight when I get home if anyone is interested.

[Charlie Kondek]

Fortunately, using cyber-ninjas, I was able to snatch Earl Hartman's last post before he deleted it. It reads:

"Charlie,

"You are always trying to pass yourself off as an expert on all things kendo, and I am sick of it. If I ever see you in person, I am going to slap you silly with your own shinai. I mean it - don't make me come over there. Oh, heck, why do I bother..."

To which I can only reply: have mercy on me, Earl! :laugh:


(But seriously, you should let fly anyway. I always appreciate your posts.)

[Earl Hartman]

Actually, Charlie, I was just warning Dagon to sign his post with his real name or I was going to send Sampson over there to pull his temple down on his head.

Then I saw that he had signed his post, did the old Homer Simpson
D'oh!" thing and tried to nuke it, but it didn't work, for some reason.

[Gene Gabel]

Originally posted by Dagon


Hi Gene. I don't have the paperwork in front of me so I am unsure as to whether or not Iai is involved. Sorry. I do know that they are holding a Seminar (Kendo), as well as the men's SWUSKIF qualifier, testing through 3 Dan, and the no-Dan Taikai.

This is all taking place at Tulane University the weekend of May 10-12. I believe the Seminar is $25 dollars. I will post more information tonight when I get home if anyone is interested.

....................
Thanks Andy, You can private email me with the skinny if you like

GEne GAbel

[Charlie Kondek]

I think H.P. Lovecraft also appropriated the Dagon deity for some of his Cthulu fiction.

To which I can only reply: Teliki-liiiii!!!

[Dagon]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
I think H.P. Lovecraft also appropriated the Dagon deity for some of his Cthulu fiction.

To which I can only reply: Teliki-liiiii!!!

I think we're going to get along just fine. :toast:

[Ben Bartlett]

I think H.P. Lovecraft also appropriated the Dagon deity for some of his Cthulu fiction.

To which I can only reply: Teliki-liiiii!!!

Indeed he was. His name also pops up in the Dead Things trilogy, by Richard Calder, although in this case it's a character who names himself after the god, not the god itself. Still, overall, he's a very popular god. Although I have to say, I always rather liked Yog-Sothoth, myself.

[Charlie Kondek]

There's a punk group called the Dwarves, and the bassist named himself He Who Shall Not Be Named. I always thought that was hilarious. How do you ask that guy if he's ready to take the stage? "Excuse me, uh, He Who Shall? Is your bass tuned up yet?"

I agree, Andy. Sounds like we (and Ben & cetera) all did some undergrad work at Miskatonic U.

:toast:

[Dagon]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
I agree, Andy. Sounds like we (and Ben & cetera) all did some undergrad work at Miskatonic U.

:toast:

Yeah, I had to move to Texas and go to UNT after I took a research trip to the Antarctic with a Proff. Everyone died in some crazy city where monsters drove them insane. I was taking a dump so I made it out OK. Anyhoo...

:D

[Soulend]

I think H.P. Lovecraft also appropriated the Dagon deity for some of his Cthulu fiction.

You never know what you're going to learn here on e-budo. And there I was picturing some mechanic leaned over the engine compartment of a '49 Lincoln, saying: "Earl! Hand me that damn hammer! I can't get this dagon carburator ta line up right!!"