Ni Ten

[Soulend]

Hi all. I remember once reading somewhere that Musashi may have gotten the idea for his two sword style from watching Portugese or Spaniards using, or practicing with, rapier and dagger.

Is there anything to support this idea? I suppose date-wise it is possible, however I don't know enough about the techniques of the ryu to note any similarity of style, nor have I heard any more about this theory.

[Jack B]

Golly, in the Samurai 1-5 movies, he gets the idea from watching Taiko drummers. Yoshikawa didn't just make that up, did he?

Jack Bieler "trying to get my number of posts up"

[hyaku]

Hello there

Its not a two sword style. Its a one sword style with two sword techniques. shortsword techniques, sword disarming and bo.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

[Walker]

Also, judging by Hyaku’s post, it seems to include the art of deleting expletives.

[Soulend]

As I am not insulting anything (being too ignorant of the ryu to do so even if that was my intention), surely no defensiveness or expletives are neccesary. Ok, let me rephrase then, since semantics seem so important. Could the two-sword techniques of this one-sword style have been inspired by the source I mentioned above?

[Charlie Kondek]

It's funny this should come up. The latest issue of "Kendo World" had an article about Musashi and got me thinking about him again. I was kind of wondering that, too, since I'd heard it before, but it does ring of apocrypha, doesn't it? Still, there's that famous portrait of him (hopefully attached), and it shows what to me seem like unusually thin swords. I've always wondered about them - where they specially made for them, according to his design? Did he prefer lighter weapons?

He's a fascinating individual, and it just doesn't help that he is the source of much legend. I think in a way it's sort of like trying to study Robin Hood - everyone is too attached to be objective, everyone wants to claim his legacy as their own. What struck me most about the article I recently read was thinking about the kind of world where a man of war could also be a man of the arts; here was the veteran of more than 60 duels, Sekigahara and the Shimabara Rebellion, but also a deeply religious man, also a painter and writer. What a contrast.

[Soulend]

I did understand that the two sword kata only formed part of the mokuroku (if I remember right, there are only 5 two-sword kata). I didn't mean to insinuate that Niten IchiRyu contained only two-sword techniques. Just referred to it as a two sword style because it is probably most famous for it's use of two swords, and Musashi himself seems to have emphasized it quite a bit in the Go Rin No Sho - at least the translations I've read.

At any rate, as that is neither here nor there and has little to do with my original query, back to the question at hand..the adaptation of jutte techniques certainly sounds plausible, far more so than than the Western fencing idea. When I had read about the possible correlation of the techniques to European rapier/main gauche duelling, it certainly did sound apochryphal. But the thought of a Koryu having a Western root to some of it's waza sounded tantalizing, so I figured perhaps there would be some insight here. I had thought of Hyaku in particular as he seems a respected representative of this Ryu.

I too had noticed the thinness of the swords in that portrait when I first saw it, but had chocked it up to 'artistic license', as I had seen other woodcuts and paintings where the swords seemed a bit skinny.

He certainly was a remarkable swordsman, strategist, and artist- quite the Rennaissance man! That goes without saying. As Charlie says though..when trying to learn of a figure of this magnitude, it is often difficult to figure out historical fact from the many legends.

[Usagi]

Originally posted by hyaku
Hello there

Its not a two sword style. Its a one sword style with two sword techniques. shortsword techniques, sword disarming and bo.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

In the tape i acquired of Imai SenSei after you recomendation (thank you for that, its a magnificent tape!), i believe to have read (with my rather limited and untrustyworthy skills) that the scholl includes Jutte and aikuchi.

I am correct or missed completely?

Also, in the DoJo wall it seems to be a naginata hanging...

[hyaku]

In regard to an article that may have been seen:

Pablo Pous Cuberes a Spanish fencing instructor has been visiting us for some years now to study Niten Ichiryu Hyoho.

He gave some very old diagrams to Imai Sohke depicting a Spaniard holding two swords. The diagram also describes the feelings and attitudes one should adopt.

Sohke now often mentions the fact that Japan is not the only country that relates a spirituality to the sword.

Perhaps this the article?

Technicaly speaking the abidextrous movements seem to be quite unique to the ryu. This always stands out when you see others doing what they claim to be Niten Ichiryu Hyoho.

As to exactly inherited the true techniques may be of interest to others. However the family situation seems to be pretty clear cut.

I may have difficulties in tracing my own lineage. But as the Musashi family was employed by various Japanese leaders its not too difficult to trace. There are documents that record this fact. The present Musashi who lives in Moji got some out to show to NHK TV this last March.

Are any records of Robin of Loxley?

Hope this helps. Regards to all

Hyakutake Colin

[hyaku]

Re: other weapons.

They are not used much. Recently the members expressed a desire to learn more about them and other facets of the ryu. We fear that if these methods are not handed down they will be lost forever. This has already happened to a certain extent.

There is always this very strong will to do Ipponme/Kihon to master things rather than be a jack of all trades and to end up doing little else.

So we have to devote more of out own free time (weekends) to press on and keep things going. Iwami Sensei also takes private tuition on Wednedays along these lines.

I will talk to Imai Sohke on Saturday about thinner weapons.
The Musashi sword I got a chance to handle at the Shimada Bijutsukan is a meaty, thick weapon with a very shallow sori.

Generally older people in Japan do tend to use lighter weapons.
Looking at the statistic years ago in Japan not many people did get that old and few have pictures anyway.

Maybe he visited the polisher too much? A blade I have made in Kikuchi (Kumamoto area) is a real rust attractor!

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

[Soulend]

Pablo Pous Cuberes a Spanish fencing instructor has been visiting us for some years now to study Niten Ichiryu Hyoho...

This is an interesting anecdote..I had not seen this article.

I may have difficulties in tracing my own lineage. But as the Musashi family was employed by various Japanese leaders its not too difficult to trace. There are documents that record this fact. The present Musashi who lives in Moji got some out to show to NHK TV this last March.

Unless I misread something, I don't think anyone is questioning the lineage or ancestry of the Musashi family. My question pertained to the possible inspiration for Musashi Miyamoto's nitto techniques only.

Hyaku, as to what Mr. Jennings mentioned (about the juttejutsu techniques being adopted), do you note any similarity between the two-sword techniques and those of the jutte? Have you also heard of Musashi Miyamoto learning the jutte from his father? I have heard that the techniques of the Niten IchiRyu are very precise and economical, with very accurate targeting, although I have not had the honor of seeing it in person. The techniques of the jutte in many systems seem similar in this respect.

[Charlie Kondek]

"I will talk to Imai Sohke on Saturday about thinner weapons."

Thanks, Hyaku!

I understand what you mean about techniques being lost. I was just reading in that same issue of Kendo World that the Maniwa Nen-ryu used to have staff as part of its curriculum, but they have gone by the wayside and been lost over the years.

P.S. Can y'all imagine if some family of English archers was claiming they had inherited the techniques of Robin of Locksley/Loxley? That'd be a mess.

[Brently Keen]

I don't know about archery techniques, but I'm sure there's still some redistribution of wealth going on over there. I imagine that's created another whole sort of mess.

Brently Keen

[Kit LeBlanc]

Hyaku-san,

Your comment on the sword called to mind the oft-seen picture of "Musashi's Bokuto," which looks large and meaty rather than thin and elegant like the bokuto used in Niten Ichi-ryu...any thoughts on that?

While we are talking jutte and aikuchi techniques...any smattering of jujutsu left in the ryu? I've heard tell Musashi's skill in grappling was underrated.

[hyaku]

To answer a few questions in this thread:

The large Bokuto one sees are generaly copys of the cut down boat oar he used against Sasaki Koijiro.

The pictures of Musashi holding swords perhaps seem to be thin. However in this particular kamae the swords are inverted with the edges out the kensaki inwards which perhaps makes them appear to be thin.

We have copy of a the set of bokuto used to pass on the tradition to the Fukuoka-han. They seem to be a little thinner and far more rounded.

I can see the practicality in parrying cuts. Today I broke a Kodachi doing parrying techniques. It seems the best Kodachi is a cut down long Bokuto.

Yes there are jutte techniques.

As to Jujutsu I have bit of exp in Goshinjutsu. The disarming techniques seem to be to be more than sufficient to me.
Wouldnt want to be on the recieving end thats for sure

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

[Kit LeBlanc]

Hyaku-san,

Fascinating information. If you can answer:

How many jutte techniques are there in the curriulum? Were they handed down as part of the original tradition (since as we have heard Musashi was apparently quite adept with smaller weapons as well...) ?

RE: disarming techniques...are they a part of the kenjutsu kata syllabus, different kata altogether, or variations? Are they muto dori or are both parties armed? Are they done from standing positions or after takedowns?

[hyaku]

Hello again.

I'll check again to see how many.

As far as I know all forms are standing. There are different set against different weapons both parties being armed.

All incorperate the Niten Ichiryu fundamentals.
One does some of this stuff and then of course thinks "Damn I need to do more ipponme to improve my hip action". And its back to basics.

Imai Sohke uses this bo that feels like tree trunk. He has laid Iwami Sensei out twice with it!

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/