Questions over foreigners' phone deposit

Questions over foreigners' phone deposit
Deemed to be a flight risk by company officials, foreigners are being asked to pay a 30,000 yen deposit when acquiring a keitai from NTT Docomo

By ARUDOU DEBITO

Last April, telecoms giant NTT announced the largest annual corporate loss in Japanese history -- 2 trillion yen. More than a third of it came from its cell phone subsidiary, NTT Docomo.

Getting started with a keitai can be an expensive business for foreigners.

Measures were deemed necessary to stem the red tide. So, on April 1, 2002, Docomo quietly announced it would seal off one source of loss -- debt from foreign deadbeats.

All new foreign subscribers without Permanent Residency (eijuuken) must now pay a 30,000 yen refundable deposit to use Docomo services.

Several human rights organizations have condemned this step as discriminatory, asking why Japanese "deadbeats" aren't being treated this way? Two groups, "United for a Multicultural Japan" and "The Community," publicly called for a boycott, drafting a multilingual protest letter for Docomo customers.

The coordinators of these groups requested to meet Docomo President Tachikawa for an exchange of views, and on June 20 they visited Docomo's swank Nagatacho penthouse headquarters overlooking the Imperial Palace, and had a conversation with several mid-level personnel.

According to a member of the Customer Relations Department, President Tachikawa was indisposed, so he offered to explain the company's reasoning.

"According to our research," he said, "foreign customers are delinquent on their bills at six times the rate of Japanese. They go home and leave us with a pile of debt. So our policy is not discrimination. It is a fact we have to counteract."

Groups: "May we see your data and analyze your statistics?"

"Sorry, they cannot be made public."

"Then we question your conclusions. Our sources in the financial analysis houses, who examine worldwide telecoms markets, say that around 99 percent of Docomo foreigners have 'good credit ratings.' They also confirm that the total Docomo debt incurred by deadbeat Japanese far exceeds that of foreigners. So why are you targeting foreigners?"

"Because foreigners are special. They can leave the country."

"Our groups' research indicates that Japanese stationed overseas also leave behind unpaid phone bills when they repatriate. Yet AT&T doesn't slap a premium on all foreigners."

"But we don't slap all foreigners. Those with Permanent Residency are exempt from our deposit. They are treated just like Japanese."

"Unfortunately, that still leaves over a million foreigners who are not. We also doubt Docomo understands how difficult Permanent Residency is to get. It takes at least five years, often longer if you are from a developing country."

"But Docomo offers a special option to foreigners. If they don't elect to pay the deposit, we provide a direct debit system after they divulge their account details."

"Thanks, but with the recent computer mishaps at Mizuho Bank and some utilities companies overbilling their customers, this is a dubious privilege."

"So," said the company representative, "what would you have Docomo do?"

"Scrap the policy. Or require this deposit from all of your customers regardless of nationality."

"We don't see that as an option."

"Understandably. There would be an exodus of Japanese to rivals like KDDI and J-Phone. But as things stand, Docomo telegraphs that, for one, foreigners are untrustworthy, and for another, their patronage is insufficient to worry about a boycott."

"That is a clear misunderstanding. Of course we value our foreign customers. It's just that they are six times more likely to default."

"We assume Docomo has done a breakdown on Japanese defaulters by age group and occupation. Have you broken down foreign defaulters by visa status? Surely those on three-year visas are less likely to leave town."

"We haven't researched that."

"So you've lumped the bad apples in with the good. Anyway, why does Docomo feel so special that it requires a deposit from foreigners? Your rivals don't and they get by."

"We are in bad financial condition. We need to cut our losses."

"By targeting customers you assumed would not complain? How about offering a prepaid phone system to everyone? How about reporting individual deadbeat foreigners to overseas credit agencies?"

"NTT cannot do things like that easily."

Shortly thereafter the meeting finished with a bureaucratic "kentou shimasu" -- our input would be taken into consideration. Meanwhile, the deposit system remains in place.

There is a reasonably happy ending, though.

Docomo recently announced that from September it will accept credit card payments. Even foreigners with Visa and Mastercards issued overseas qualify.

Unfortunately, those with only a gaijin card to prove their creditworthiness (since many Japanese credit cards also refuse to issue to foreigners) must still cough up the 30,000 yen.

The Japan Times: Aug. 29, 2002
(C) All rights reserved

[Kimpatsu]

Japanese racism once again. Why doesn't the UN complain? Is there any way to sue NTT DoCoMo through the courts for racism?

This is one of the many reasons why I refuse to use Docomo, they are too expensive and their "denpa" (English ?) is crap. They should re-name them Doco-demonai as in they can't be used anywhere.

[red_fists]

Here is my view:

Those are the conditiong that NTT Docomo sets.

Don't like them go to the competition.

It is a free world, nobody forces you to sign/deal with them.

Cheers.

I think more than a few folks have had it with them since their sales are so low.

I use an AU phone........their pretty cheap and I get denpa damn near everywhere.

BTW, what is denpa in English?

[Daruma]

Denpa - “`”d - Transmission; propagation; spread; circulation; diffusion; dissemination

Denpa - “`”À - Transmission, propagation, Spread.


This all I had relating to Keitei in my Books,


there were another 9 relating to radio waves and Astronomy, but i don't think those were what you were looking for - maybe tranmit/receive is what you mean Robert.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
>> BTW, what is denpa in English? <<

microwaves, as in those for wireless broadcast. for those of you with kanji-capable computers:?@“d”g.

has this policy affected current DoCoMo users? this is the first i've heard of it and i've never been asked for a "deposit" of any kind.

[red_fists]

I got Denpa down as "Radiowave".

That deposit thingy exists only for the last 4 month, surprised nobody mentioned it earlier on.

Bassically it is designed to cover for Gaijin that either leave without paying or being deported due to visa overstaying, transfered by their Companies, etc.

By the looks of it, they don't worry about existing contracts at all.
So us Guys that already got a Docomo phone seem to be fine.

Won't affect me anyway as I got Eijuken, plus I could always rent in my Wife's name. :P

Cheers.

Thanks for the translation........I swear I am forgetting English...

[Kimpatsu]

Denpa literally means "radiowave", but in this context, as in "denpa ga warui", I would translate denpa as "reception". HTH.
as to Peter's assertion, if I were a rival company like AU (my own provider, as it happens), I'd offer free trade-ins on DoCoMo phones to customers defecting because of the racism. But Peter's statement still doesn't address the principle of combatting NTT's racist stance. So, my original question still stands: Can we take legal action?

Tony,

Being from America and having lawyers running out of drain pipes I am pretty sure you can sue anybody for anything. Whether you win or not is the question.

A foreigner suing a large japanese company........see you in about 50 years because that is how long it will take to come to trial.

[red_fists]

Tony.

I agree with Robert.

Why would you want to sue them unless you have been damaged by their decision.
Unless you can proof damages(loss of money, emotional stress, etc) you won't stand much chance in court.

It will cost you too much in money and time to make it worthwhile.
They would most probably settle out of court anyway.

Kinda:
Here is a cheque and a phone + 1 year free contract.

I am sure that NTT consulted their team of lawyers that they hire full-time before they made that decision.

Cheers.

Also, considering there wasn't any law on the books against racism until the Brazilian woman in the Jewelery store case hit the news (3 years ago ?) I doubt if anything would ever get done.
They would most likely keep filing motions until you either left Japan, which most of us gaijin do, or died of old age.


However, even though I have eijuken I would still like to take the person or persons that thought of that rule and take'em out back and knock the snot out of them. I hate racism.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Tony,

i think that Peter's comment is on the money, literally: i assume that a successful lawsuit would need to demonstrate actual damages resulting from the defendant's action or inaction. since i don't have a textbook knowledge of the japanese legal system, however, i can't really comment further.

someone asked me once why i didn't sue a landlord who refused me and my wife an apartment (another sad example of the classic "no gaijin" rule). perhaps it was laziness on my part, but i have to agree with Robert's assessment of the situation. the process would have taken forever and cost me a helluva lot more money than i'd ever want to spend. and what do you suppose the real chances of winning that action would be?

i think the best choice is simply taking your business elsewhere. nothing scares the crap out of a company like a good boycott.

Nothing scares the crap out of a company more than protestrs standing in front of their Corp. HQ with signs telling everyone what racist bastards they are............to hell with the court system...take it to the people!

[Kimpatsu]

Robert's idea of direct action is the best yet, especially if the world press come along and televise the proceedings. As to lawsuits: I don't expect to win; I want to shine a light on their racism. But why can they get away with it? Racism is an absolute evil, and must be combatted absolutely.

[red_fists]

Tony.

Try to get rid of racism and you will mostly likely get rid of the human race first.

I see racism as a human surival trait, it is part of us.

Cheers.

[stewart73]

I wouldn`t call this racism really..I mean, Docomo is just being practical. I know alot of gaijin that think Japan is just a playground where they can rack up whatever bills they feel like, and then leave (knowing that no Japanese company is going to follow them home and demand reparation). Docomo obviously realizes that they will lose alot of potential customers this way, but the losses from gaijin not paying their bills must be greater or I imagine they wouldn`t be implementing the deposit. As far as it only applying to foreigners, this is probably because Docomo can easily find a deadbeat Japanese customer and eventually get the money out of them. Not so with someone who has gone back to Timbuktu. And, as somebody mentioned, there are now more than a few keitai companies to choose from so nobody has to pay this deposit if they dont want to. Japan is a great place to live and I feel sorry for those who become so jaded and start to pick the place apart, and yet, quite mysteriously, choose to still live here. Of course there are alot of frustrating aspects to this place, but just think of wherever it is that you came from....it was probably worse. These are the same people who never mention all the benefits that gaijin actually have here....try moving anywhere else in the world and you will probably be hard-pressed to find a country that is so welcoming to foreigners. In my opinion, people become spoiled here and are quick to shout `rascism!` at the first opportunity. What about the discounts that gaijin get in certain clubs, or the free tours that only gaijin can get, or the cheap/free Japanese lessons that some city halls offer....I know my home country doesn`t offer that to the Japanese who choose to live there. My country (Canada) also charges over double for university tuition if you are from another country.....ouch.

[stewart73]

forgot my name again.....gotta figure this out! :D David Stewart

Originally posted by stewart73
.............. As far as it only applying to foreigners, this is probably because Docomo can easily find a deadbeat Japanese customer and eventually get the money out of them. Not so with someone who has gone back to Timbuktu.

I read a few months ago that there was also a problem with young Japanese H.S. kids not paying their extremely high bills. Which resulted in some of the girls engaging "enjokosai" prostitution.
The problem was not exclusive to Docomo either.
Having said that I wonder why none of the other companies have started the deposit system for gaijin.

[stewart73]

Hmmm...interesting. I was late paying my J-Phone once and they let it slide, but the next time my bill reached the due date, my phone instantly stopped working! They now disable your phone within hours of not paying so there is really no way you can rack up a huge bill (unless you do it all within a month which is obviously possible). As soon as the late bill is paid the phone is re-activated within minutes. Kinda scary how fast if works! And I figured most of the enjokosai girls just wanted one more Louis Vuitton bag to add to the heap! heheh..:cool: But to pay your phone bill? Talk about a long-distance relationship...okay, bad joke...:p

Originally posted by stewart73
Hmmm...interesting. I was late paying my J-Phone once and they let it slide, but the next time my bill reached the due date, my phone instantly stopped working! They now disable your phone within hours of not paying so there is really no way you can rack up a huge bill (unless you do it all within a month which is obviously possible). As soon as the late bill is paid the phone is re-activated within minutes. Kinda scary how fast if works!


J-Phone has that policy however I don't think AU and Docomo do. You have to get pretty far behind before they turn it off.
I let my phone bill get behind every once in a while (I refuse to use the furikomi system)and they have never turned it off. They just send me a reminder notice.

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by stewart73
>> I wouldn`t call this racism really ... <<

perhaps not, but i would call it discrimination. i usually think of "racism" as an attitude born of hate or contempt for people of different ethnicity, but discrimination can manifest itself in seemingly innocuous ways such as this deposit.

>> Japan is a great place to live and I feel sorry for those who become so jaded and start to pick the place apart, and yet, quite mysteriously, choose to still live here. <<

you make it sound as though ex-pats in japan should be willing to lie down and take whatever crap gets dished at them. i certainly don't discount the "benefits" afforded to ex-pats here, although i might argue that their value diminishes rather quickly with time.

>>... try moving anywhere else in the world and you will probably be hard-pressed to find a country that is so welcoming to foreigners. <<

the devil's advocate might respond by saying, "not 'welcoming' but rather 'tolerant' of an ex-pat population considered necessary to achieve the marvellous goal of 'internationalization'".

>> My country (Canada) also charges over double for university tuition if you are from another country.....ouch. <<

bearing in mind, of course, that university tuitions in Canada (also my country of birth) are funded to a rather large degree -pun intended- by tax revenues, monies which have not been paid by international students. to borrow your argument, this is a matter of practicality for canadian universities, don't you agree?

[Kimpatsu]

The thing about Stewart73 is that he's a newbie who's still in the honeymoon stage, so he feels compelled to defend Japan. He'll grow out of it over time.
The policy in question is definitely racism, because it's aimed specifically at racial groups different from the perceived racial group of the Japanese. Don't confuse reality with perception; in fact, the Japanese are not one racial group, but they believe themselves to be, and act accordingly.
As to "being spoiled"; this is our home, too. I don't feel spoiled; I just want equality. Why is that too much to ask?
On a final note: What happened, Robert? Your karma is back in the green. Shame on you! ;)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by red_fists
Try to get rid of racism and you will mostly likely get rid of the human race first.

I see racism as a human surival trait, it is part of us.
Racism is not a part of us, Peter, although it may be a part of you. It's not a survival trait, it's nonsense, but because it's dangerous nonsense, we must be wary of it. And what's wrong with getting rid of the human race? Then we, the master race, can take over. (You needn't worry, though; as you're not human, you'll be spared to do menial labour for the rest of us.) :D

[red_fists]

Tony.

Humans I got no problmes with, it is civilisation, capitalism & comercialism that I hate.
:D :D

Seeya.
P.S.: I might have my new DOCOMO Keitai with me on the 8th.
Getting it with a new contract so I can get it at 1/2 price.

Originally posted by red_fists

P.S.: I might have my new DOCOMO Keitai with me on the 8th.
Getting it with a new contract so I can get it at 1/2 price.


Traitor!!!!!;)

Did you know that Docomo's previous deposit policy was for US military personal only. Now they have expanded to included all us nasty gaijin.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

On a final note: What happened, Robert? Your karma is back in the green. Shame on you! ;)

I don't know what the deal is, one minute I am down 400 points and the next I am in +'s........my karma "troll" is not doing his job keeping me in the neg.

I think when gaijin live here long enough they come to find that we are the neccassary evil. Look at the top executive of Nissan.........they didn't call in a gaijin to pull the company around until the s**t hit the fan and they had no choice.
Look at the Japan world cup team coach..........hell half the time some sill old git at the JFA wanted to fire him but then he gave Japan the best team they have ever had and now he's "da man"...........so much so that he packed up and went home

[red_fists]

Robert.

All the lil ol' nasty foreigners that are still not on "permanent residence".

Main reason why I use Docomo.
I am already on a Family plan, and we also use DOCOMO for dialup connection for our Notebooks at the Company.

Easier to send the bucks to one place not multiple.

Seeya.

P.S.: I agree that many foreigners abused the system and left without paying their debts before leaving.

Originally posted by red_fists
Robert.

All the lil ol' nasty foreigners that are still not on "permanent residence".

Not too many of those around.

In the 14 yrs I have been here I think I have 4 people that have it.

Originally posted by red_fists
Main reason why I use Docomo.
I am already on a Family plan, and we also use DOCOMO for dialup connection for our Notebooks at the Company.

Easier to send the bucks to one place not multiple.



Nope, sorry you have beeen charged with treason, and it shall stand. I think we will have to take you out and have you shot. ;) or maybe just make you DO some shots........Jaegermiester (?) anyone?

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot



Nope, sorry you have beeen charged with treason, and it shall stand. I think we will have to take you out and have you shot. ;) or maybe just make you DO some shots........Jaegermiester (?) anyone?

Jaegermeister, not a bad way to go.

Most of the long-term(6+yrs) ex-pats I know all have foreign residenceship.
But than they are all married to japanese, work full-time in a Company which makes it sooo much easier to get.

Cheers.

Originally posted by red_fists


Jaegermeister, not a bad way to go.

No way! I was just kidding. That stuff tastes like cough syrup.
Bad things happen when I drink that stuff..........very bad stuff.

Originally posted by red_fists
Most of the long-term(6+yrs) ex-pats I know all have foreign residenceship.
But than they are all married to japanese, work full-time in a Company which makes it sooo much easier to get.

Cheers.

But Peter, you have to remember you hang out with a higher class of people than I do. ;)

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot

No way! I was just kidding. That stuff tastes like cough syrup.
Bad things happen when I drink that stuff..........very bad stuff.


Of course it tastes like cough sirup, we use is a form of medication.

Cheers.

Originally posted by red_fists


Of course it tastes like cough sirup, we use is a form of medication.

Cheers.


Really?

Let me guess........you use it to induce vomiting........right?

[red_fists]

Robert.

There are a few things we use it for.
Vomiting ain't high in the list.

You think that is bad, I will bring you a "Underberg", this one we use to settle the stomach after a heavy Meal.

Only sold in teenie Bottles.

Cheers.

I actually thought Jaegermeister tasted a bit like boozed up Chinese kampo. Do you know what herbs are in it?

[red_fists]

Robert.

I will find out and give you the list on Sunday.

Cheers.

[stewart73]

Well Kimpatsu, it's been almost 4 years for me here so if that qualifies me as a 'newbie' then so be it, but I just don't share everyone's apparent outrage at Docomo's new 'gaijin only' deposit. In fact, I'm surprised they didn't think of it earlier. If you happen to be one of those nice, law-abiding, bill-paying foreigners then relax in the knowledge that this new rule is not your fault, and unless you were really planning on getting a new Docomo contract, it doesn't even affect you. Why not direct your distaste towards the hundreds of foreigners who left the country with big bills and warranted the policy being implemented in the first place? And someone mentioned something about (loosely quoted) "laying down and taking whatever crap they give us"...I can certainly understand the sentiment but why not direct your energy at some real discrimination?
Adapt! Improvise! Overcome! I know you can do it.:cool: David Stewart

Originally posted by stewart73
Adapt! Improvise! Overcome!


I saw "Heartbreak Ridge" with Clint Eastwood too.

[stewart73]

Heheheh....great old show. Nice to see someone remembers the classics! :D

Eastwood is "The Man".....I like his old westerns

[red_fists]

Hi.

I think too many people are too quick to jump on the bandwagon for something that they perceive as "racist".

Might be due to personal insecurity or bad experiences.

Things like the "extra deposit for foreigners" exist in many Countries but the average joe is not aware of them as he is not a foreigner.
Some countries cover it up with other stuff or call it something different as not to be perceived racist.

Looking from a business point of view renting anything to a foreigner is a risky business.
May it be a car, apartment or a cel-phone.
If anything happens to him it is tough to get your dues back from him or his relatives overseas.

Same with Insurances, loands, etc they calculate the risk and adjust your payments accordingly.

Granted DOCOMO could have been more subtle and PC about doing this.
Bu than we would have people whining about the PC-correct Crowd.

Cheers.

Peter,

I agree.
However, to single out a group is prejudice.
I am just wondering why they don't require a deposit from other "high risk" groups like JH/HS kids. Most of them can't even have jobs so I have no idea how the phone company expects them to pay their bills.
Also, what percentage of foreigners that sign with Docomo skip out on their bills?
Is it really worthy of this new rule?
I wouldn't mind taking a peek at the demographics Docomo has on non-bill payers to see who doesn't pay and actually how much revenue is lost.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Peter,

I agree.
However, to single out a group is prejudice.


Agreed.


I am just wondering why they don't require a deposit from other "high risk" groups like JH/HS kids. Most of them can't even have jobs so I have no idea how the phone company expects them to pay their bills.


A lot of those contracts are in their parents name and plenty of parents just pay the bills anyway.
Many of my japanese friends gave their little primary school kids keitai, but they are restriced to a few numbers that can be called.


Also, what percentage of foreigners that sign with Docomo skip out on their bills?
Is it really worthy of this new rule?
I wouldn't mind taking a peek at the demographics Docomo has on non-bill payers to see who doesn't pay and actually how much revenue is lost.

Obviously Docomo felt that there were enough people that did so and thus justified the action.

Said that I have seen and met many Ex-pats that thought Japan and other Countries were a free-for-all and they could bassically get away with murder.

Cheers.

[Kimpatsu]

Peter, even if other countries do the same, so what? Two wrongs don't make a right. We're discussing Japan, not Austria. If you tried this in the UK, there would be an outcry, and you'd be subject to a class action law suit... quite rightly, too. Discrimination against a group of people because of their skin colour is racism, pure and simple. That's what this is. Still in your Japan honeymoon period, I see... "Japan can't be wrong", "I must justify Japanese actions". Do you support Ishihara, too? More to the point, why are you defending an unconscionable action that is designed to make you suffer?

[red_fists]

Tony.

It happens EVERYWHERE including your perfect England.
Ask any Ex-pat next time you go there, about getting a loan, renting an apartment, finding work, etc.
It might open your eyes to the realities of life.

As for your class action lawsuits, they sound nice in theory, but in reality there are many ways to avoid them and THOSE are used daily.

I am not on a "honeymoon" never was.
I am defending what I consider a healthy common business practice.
Granted I don't agree with the way it was implemented.

Docomo does NOT make ME suffer, maybe they are hurting you.
Been renting many Keitai from them??

Tough luck.

Originally posted by red_fists


Obviously Docomo felt that there were enough people that did so and thus justified the action.


There is no doubt that some gaijin skip country, but what I am wondering is how many and how much compared to other demographic groups.
When the phones first came out I got one. there was basically no need to show anything except a drivers license. Now you can't even get a phone with a monthly bill until you have lived in Japan 3 months and registered at the ward office and get a gaijin card. It seems they keep upping the anti every so often. What's next a pint of blood and a sperm sample.
I know Tsuka has a plan where you by a card for the phone and progam so many minutes into the phone that are good for about 6 monhts or so. When the minutes run out you have to by another card for the phone.
You don't get a monthly bill and don't need to have lived in Japan for 3 months.

Originally posted by red_fists
Said that I have seen and met many Ex-pats that thought Japan and other Countries were a free-for-all and they could bassically get away with murder.
Cheers.

Couldn't agree more. I have seen some of my fellow gaijin do some pretty atrocious stuff here in Japan. Some gaijin think the rules don't apply to them. I can remember a couple of years ago when some Germans were smoking in a subway and stood right next a "No-Smoking" sign written in English and Japanese. Some Japanese person mentioned it to them and they answered in English "Sorry, We don't speak Japanese". So I asked them "sprechen zee my foot up your ass?" They quite smoking. Since then I have been given the title of "American Cultural Ambassador to Japan"

I don't mind playing by the rules most of the time but this thing with Docomo is just a bit much becasue given the "fish school" mantality here if they do it every other company will do it. where will it stop?

[Kimpatsu]

I din't say England was perfect, Peter, only that what you call "common business practice" is a euphemism for racism, and racism must be opposed. If you tried this in the UK, you would be arrested. Which is what should happen. Actually, your last sentence is revealing; my keitai provider is AU, but that doesn't make me any less mad at DoCoMo. What you really mean is that so long as you personally don't suffer, you couldn't care less what happens to anyone else, right? Me, I empathise with everyone who suffers at the hands of racists, be the racists NTT, Jorg Haider, or the BNP. Put another way, when we win the battle against NTT, and you start using their service, you will be directly benefiting from the labour of others. Doesn't that prick your conscience just the tiniest little bit? Inquiring minds want to know...
;)

[red_fists]

Robert.

Funnily, enough the introduction of the Deposit coincides with the introduction of the GSM Service into Japan.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I din't say England was perfect, Peter,


England is the best country isn't? I mean they have the best weather, food, etc.. ;)...............well the beer is pretty good anyway.


Originally posted by Kimpatsu
......................Put another way, when we win the battle against NTT, and you start using their service, you will be directly benefiting from the labour of others. Doesn't that prick your conscience just the tiniest little bit? Inquiring minds want to know...
;)


I will never use Docomo.

Originally posted by red_fists
Robert.

Funnily, enough the introduction of the Deposit coincides with the introduction of the GSM Service into Japan.

Cheers.

You right that is interesting.

[Kimpatsu]

Robert, Peter:
Do you think that there's a correlation between the two (GSM and charge), or just coincidence? Beware post hoc, ergo propter hoc rationalist fallacies...

[red_fists]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I din't say England was perfect, Peter, only that what you call "common business practice" is a euphemism for racism, and racism must be opposed.


Go ahead oppose racism. I have seen racism isntituted by Companies and Goverments and racism done by people.

Know which one is worse??


What you really mean is that so long as you personally don't suffer, you couldn't care less what happens to anyone else, right?


Wrong, everybody is free to live their life they way they want to and run their Business they way they want to.
NOBODY is forcing anybody to rent from Docomo, people have a free will to decide what they want to do.

If Docomo has bad business practices than their busines will suffer.

It is a FREE world, or atleast it is supposed to be till the PC-Crowd steps in.

If a japanese does not want to rent something to a foreigner than he must be free to do so as well.


Put another way, when we win the battle against NTT, and you start using their service, you will be directly benefiting from the labour of others. Doesn't that prick your conscience just the tiniest little bit? Inquiring minds want to know...
;)

How will I benefit from the labour of others. I just signed a new Docomo contract yesterday and NOBODY asked me for the 30.000Yen.

It is was done out of my FREE will, and no NTT BIG Brother forced me to do so.

You see "racism" for me implies hate for someone, I don't think that NTT hates anyone.

Cheers and have fun fighting the good cause while I go on living my life.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by red_fists
How will I benefit from the labour of others. I just signed a new Docomo contract yesterday and NOBODY asked me for the 30.000Yen.
Thereby proving my point that so long as you personally are not affected, you don't care, right?
Originally posted by red_fists
It is was done out of my FREE will, and no NTT BIG Brother forced me to do so.
Ibid.
Originally posted by red_fists
You see "racism" for me implies hate for someone, I don't think that NTT hates anyone.
I would contend that there are, broadly speaking, two kinds of racism: the type to which you refer, and which I label overt racism, the kind practiced by the BNP, for example, and covert, or subconscious racism, of the kind practiced by NTT: As with sexual harrasment, the perpetrator's intention is irrelevant. The outcome of their policy is to discriminate against a specific racial or ethnic group: the gaijin. As such, the policy is racist.
Originally posted by red_fists
I have seen racism isntituted by Companies and Goverments and racism done by people.
Know which one is worse??
They are both equally bad. Oh, and BTW, companies and governments comprise people, so don't be fooled by the veneer of authority you perceive by the group label. Being a corporation rather than an individual doesn't legitimise the racism.
Originally posted by red_fists
Cheers and have fun fighting the good cause while I go on living my life.
This is my life; fighting injustice is a requirement. Nice to know self interest hasn't quite died out, yet. As for my crime fighting, I take the spandex off long enough to sink a pint occasionally. See you Sunday. :beer:

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by stewart73
>> Why not direct your distaste towards the hundreds of foreigners who left the country with big bills and warranted the policy being implemented in the first place? <<

this question was raised upthread: just what statistics are behind the policy? what percentage of unpaid bills can be attributed to foreigners who skip the country in comparison to japanese nationals, for example? if you have access to some of the numbers DoCoMo used to arrive at their decision, David, please share. they didn't seem willing to come clean during their exchange of views with the protest group.

>> And someone mentioned something about (loosely quoted) "laying down and taking whatever crap they give us"...I can certainly understand the sentiment but why not direct your energy at some real discrimination? <<

that'd be my comment. first and foremost, i do see this policy as "real discrimination". DoCoMo could avoid the conflict by simply imposing a security deposit on every new contract; it's not like japanese people are that opposed to laying down huge sums of money without question!

second, the devil's advocate would suggest that policies such as this represent the thin edge of the wedge, the top of the slippery Rabelaisian slope (am i using that reference correctly, i wonder?). i agree that there are surely bigger fish to fry in the human rights pond, and consumer freedom means that foreigners buying a mobile phone can speak with their cash. still, if we allow "little transgressions" such as this slip by, you know full well that the offenders will simply attempt bigger offenses.

>> Adapt! Improvise! Overcome! I know you can do it. <<

oh, we do, David. the exact methods of our adaptation, improvisation, and overcoming may simply be different than others!:D

[red_fists]

Tony.

I don't think that the GMS and Deposit thingy is a coincidence.

Plus, I don't think that NTT was really more worried about, shall we say, Ex-pats that originated from closer regions than Europe or American non-soldiers.

I also think that there were other motives for the deposit, like copyright issues and so on.
Docomo is currently spreading it's I-Mode technology worldwide and I doubt if they want gray market copies of their phones/technology overseas.

As in typical fashion a japanese Company tried to hide the real reason and choose the wrong excuse for doing so.

I say let all the Ex-pats get pre-paid phones.
No more hassles.

One question I got :
how will the Deposit be collected in case you don't buy from an actual Docomo shop, like I do??

Cheers.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by red_fists
I say let all the Ex-pats get pre-paid phones.
Only if everyone else does, too. Remember: we require equal treatment in all things.
Interesting point about the "GMS deposit thingy".
:toast:

Here is what I would hate to see happen.
Everyone that has ever rented an apartment in Japan knows how it feels to take it up a** with all the little tricky fees they charge.
1st and last months rent (standard)
Realtor's fee of 1 months rent (a bit steep for doing nothing)
Landlords money= 1 months rent (for what? you just gave him a deposit)
Insurance money= 1 month (whatever that is)

(you need about US$5,000 just to move into a decent apartment in Japan)

I can see how if this phone deposit went unchecked something similar could happen in the cell phone industry.

[red_fists]

Tony.

I order to be equal.

You will have to wear one of our sexy silk TCC Pyjamas(colour your choice), since I refuse to wear spandex.

You see equality for everybody.

Seeya Sunday.

[Kimpatsu]

But I've just had a new superhero dogi made in yellow spandex with a nifty logo, and a mask to protect my secret identity, when I go out at night to fight crime as Supergaijin (TM). Using my amazing command of Japanese- dohMO arayGAYto, senor- I endeavour to fight injustice and drink as many pints of the true black gold as I can.
Onward, team!:toast:

I would imagine you look a bit like EMINEM in that outfit.
Are you going to sing his song "Without me" as well? ;)