View Full Version : Seiho on the Web
10-03-2002, 03:32 AM
I was wondering if any kenshi could refer me to web resources regarding the Shorinji Kempo subject of Seho.
While I doubt if this is anything that could be taught over the web, there may be some information that could extend my understanding.
10-03-2002, 06:51 AM
Do you mean Seiho?
10-03-2002, 08:14 AM
Yes indeed I mean Seiho. Hey I never claimed to be good at spelling.
Are you aware of any Seiho resources on the web?
10-09-2002, 05:53 PM
I've put "Seiho" into various Japanese search engines, and mostly have come up with Shorinji Kempo branch homepages, which explain what seiho is, but don't actually give any tips for performing it, which I gather is what you're really after.
Maybe we should compile such a page ourselves.
10-10-2002, 01:31 AM
I always wondered wiether or not it would be right to post too much information about Shorinjikempo up on the internet besides the basic introductions. Should the techniques and knowledge that we learn just be given out so freely? I heard a story from a friend of mine at the dojo. When he was at hombu, he happened to run into a group of kenshi practicing the shakujo techniques. He took a couple of pictures with his camera but then he was quickly and politely asked not to take any pictures by someone standing nearby. There are videos of S.K. techniques that can only be bought by kenshi and they must go through thier branch masters. These are just a couple of examples that I can think of off the top of my head. What are your thoughts about this?
10-10-2002, 02:18 AM
I'm surprised at your friend being asked not to photograph Shakujo techniques at Hombu, because Hombu has just released a video that can be bought over the counter at any sports shop, which includes demonstration of Shakujo and Bo techniques. As to giving away too much, however, I agree wholeheartedly. This is why the Kyohan is not for general sale, and can only be purchased by Kenshi of 2nd dan or above. Also, every copy is numbered, and the purchaser logged. A few years ago, an ex-Kenshi sold his copy of the Kyohan to a second-hand bookstore, and this was discovered serendipitiously by another Kenshi, who immediately bought the second-hand copy (to remove it from the shelves), and informed Hombu, who then notifed the ex-Kenshi that this was a breach of ethics. This is also why I am so opposed to cross-training. Teaching non-Kenshi Shorinji Kempo techniques is the same as giving a loaded gun to someone you don't know. You can't claim ignorance if the gun is then used to commit a crime, as you loaded it and gave it to the wielder. You are still directly culpable. On the internet, introductions to the four pillars of Shorinji Kempo (goho, juho, seiho, howa) are fine, but I believe strongly that there are limits to the information that should be made available to non-Kenshi. Tasters are OK, but for anything more substantial, an interested party really should join a Shorinji Kempo branch and learn from a qualified instructor.
I hope my ramblings haven't bored everyone comatose.
10-10-2002, 07:17 AM
Thank you for your efforts in searching the Japanese sites. In hind site, I agree with the view regarding not putting too much on the web. Least of all because without proper instruction seiho techniques could be misunderstood and the wrong result achieved.
This brings me to a similar point being made regarding cross training, and yet again may hightlight some of my ignorance.
I have read on Shiatsu and have practiced it. This I find different to seiho, but can be interesting. Does the study of shiatsu evoke the same feeling as cross training in other martial arts? How close do you see shiatsu and seiho?
10-10-2002, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by MikeCarew
How close do you see shiatsu and seiho?
Very close. The difference lies not in the long-term benefits (the difference between which is negligable), but in seiho's ability to treat immediate, acute injuries within the doin. Manipulation, however, remains very much the same.
10-10-2002, 11:46 AM
As for Seiho I have never seen anything (on the Web) more than the mention of it as a part of Shorinjikempo and there is very little written material on it as well.
I recently saw in some old "Arahan magazines" (the old monthly magazine produced by Hombu) that they had some pictures and explanations on Seiho techniques. I think that these issues were from early 80s.
IN my opinion I think that we should have some sort of Kamoku on Seiho techniques. If so at least you could now what techniques you could ask senior sensei to teach to you.
In the spring of 2000 I had the fortune to take part in a class in the Hombu Busen taught by Bando-sensei and I asked him about his opinion on a Seiho Kamoku. His reply was that he thought that Hombu should make one.
So I sincerely hope that this will happen someday.
Seiho is definitely one of the most difficult parts to learn within Shorinjikempo (in my opinion) but also one of the most interesting parts.
10-10-2002, 10:20 PM
In a fit of numerical lunacy, I agree with Anders Sensei 1,000% (This is revenge for all thouse who laughed at my 10% typo. :D )
I think that not only should there be a seiho syllabus, but that seiho should also be included as part of a grading exam. What does everybody else think?
Yes , I think there should be a structure for Seiho. We are lucky here in that we have a great Sensie who is quite knowlegeble( Noda-sensei ). But not everyone is so lucky and I think it gets overlooked. By making it part of exams it ensures everyone is up to a certain level.
10-10-2002, 10:55 PM
Yes, having a seiho syllabus and making seiho part of the grading exam all sound like good ideas. Learning Seiho techniques seems sometimes almost as rare as learning Shakujo, dokko or nyoi techniques. Seiho is really useful and interesting but not practiced as much as most kenshi would prefer it seems. I also tried running a search on the net for seiho but couldn't find nothing much more than a fukudoku hon introduction.
10-11-2002, 03:03 AM
I think the nature of the replies confirms my feeling on this. Seiho is taught by various sensi's, but there is not a structure to the teaching. Some sensis are particularly good at seiho and therefore you get more of it during the course of your training. Others less so. I like the idea of seiho in gradings, as it would provide a focus for instruction and training.
I am glad that there isn't a seiho for dummies web site, as this would defeat the purpose and would probably be dangerous. On the other hand we could do with some kind of manual/handbook on the various seiho techniques. This would have to be controlled as are some of the other kempo books.
How is seiho handled in Japan? Is there more structure to the teachings, or is it left up to the individual sensi's?
One big difference that I have noticed between Shiatsu and seiho is the diagnostic side of things. In seiho we respond to training injuries, at least at the level I understand seiho. Shiatsu spends a large amount of effort in diagnosing the cause of problems.
10-11-2002, 08:15 AM
Well I agree with Tony 45.37%. I am looking forward to the first seiho exams. First you have to knock your partner out. Then, you have to revive him before he suffers any permanent damage.;)
Seriously though, I agree that seiho is taught in a much too haphazard way. The result is that I have very little confidence in my ability to do it, much less teach it. It would be great if there was a seiho syllabus, but I suspect that many Branch Masters would first need some significant remedial training before they could teach it.
Testing on it would be a great way to help ensure proper transmission of knowledge. But the testing has to be done properly. Certainly, it needs to be done better than the current 3-dan kyusho location test. You can't show understanding or proficiency with a simple diagram.
10-11-2002, 08:32 AM
I forgot to mention one seiho resource in my previous post. At the 1985 International Taikai seminar, we were given a demonstration by Bando Sensei which included a small book in Japanese of Bando Sensei demonstrating various seiho techniques complete with arrows and other helpful marks on the photographs. Hombu was pretty protective of the book - copies were numbered and we had to sign for them. It is an interesting book and would be more helpful if translated. But I don't know if Hombu is willing to make it more widely available. But, I believe it is only useful as a reference - you can't really learn this stuff without doing it hands-on.
Actually, that may be the reason seiho teaching is so haphazard. While you can teach goho and juho techniques standing in front of a room with 20 or more people (plus some individual comments and corrections), I think seiho needs to be taught in a much more personal way - almost one-on-one to ensure that the student knows exactly how much pressure to apply, exactly in which direction, etc. I usually walk away from large group seiho demonstrations feeling that although I could describe what I saw, I really don't know how to do it myself.
10-12-2002, 01:57 AM
As far as I know, there is just one Hombu seminar in which Seiho & Appo are officially covered. This would be the "Koshukai Yoji" (roughly, Seminar No.4), usually held in the Nov time frame at Hombu. This seminar is only for 4dan & up. There, they do use a thin booklet that illustrates different seiho techniques. I believe this booklet is a subset of the one Dolce-sensei referred to.
10-14-2002, 08:05 AM
I've asked a number of senior teachers in Japan about why seiho was once taught more broadly and is now reserved for more senior students. As I understand it, in the early days practically everyone did it to each other at the end of certain practices. And the dojo where I started did it this way. The general reply was that teaching seiho to all levels of kenshi ended often ended up in injuries. I think the problem was something like the telephone game, where the more people a seiho technique went through, the more inaccurate (and damaging) it could become, so the teaching was mostly withdrawn to higher levels.
I figured the solution was to find techniques that put people in better health without also putting them at risk. I learned a set of techniques from a healer in Hachioji -shi, and these were great, but the safest ones were based on using a wooden dowel to roll out the tense spots. Very safe. Effective even, but it doesn't educate you particularly quickly in how bodies work, and it distances kenshi from one another. So I've still been looking. Last year, I took a stretching seminar in the U.S. that puts the hands back on and was very effective. It's not like shiatsu (not based on pressing kyusho), but rather based on manipulating muscles. So while it does not train a person in pressure points, it sure helps get the feeling for how to manipulate a body in juho (especially because it develops sensitivity in how a body works). The stretching method is called Active Isolated Stretching, and I learned the Aaron Mattes Method. It's well worth adding to your repertoire. You'll end up more flexible too.
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.