koryu attitude

[Dave Lowry]

Curses! Foiled again! Forget it, fellows. The jig is up. Mr. Yobina’s savvy sensei has hoisted the wool from the eyes of those who would have otherwise fallen for the thimblerigging machinations of the so-called “koryu.” He’s hip that what we’ve all been doing for years is just a dojo version of three-card monte, designed to fleece the gullible and trick men into wearing skirts.

I hate to admit it, but we may expect Mr. Yobina’s intrepid instructor to blow the lid off the secret of Katori Shinto ryu presently, revealing it to be nothing more than the concoction of a couple of out-of-work chanbara extras, hatched in 1969 on a Toho Studios backlot.
The entire world will soon know that Ono-ha Itto ryu’s headmaster is actually just the guy who services the Slurpee machines at Shibuya 7-11s.
That Yagyu Shinkage ryu is but a wholly owned subsidiary of the Yamaha Corporation, its curriculum derived from warm-up exercises for batters of the Hanshin Tigers.

It’s all over. Like the flimflam pettifogger in The Music Man, we’d best pack up our bokuto and slink out of town, lest the irate locals warm up the tar and start plucking chickens. I can only hope Mr. Yobina’s marauding master doesn’t turn his attention to the mountebanks running the Ikenobo ryu ikebana scheme, uncovering the sordid truth behind their operation--an Osaka yakuza outfit trying to foist off the excess products of Japanese florists. Oops. I’ve said too much…

Cordially,

[gmellis]

Indeed. The game does appear to be up. This fellow has just flushed my four years of training (in marketing, advertising, publishing, counterfeiting and jidai geki chanbara acting) at Katori R' Us Incorporated here in Japan right down the toilet. I could have been rich, famous, had sex with hordes of hot chicks and gotten my own T.V. show with a whacky side-kick, if this fraudryu buster hadn't blown the whistle on us. All is not lost, though, as the skills we have learned here can at least be used to work for the yakuza or start counterfeiting and prostitution rackets...or maybe infommercials selling pubic hairs of Bruce Lee in olive oil that boosts one's martial prowess when used in salads. What's the name of this Bastion of the One True Koryu's name again? My godfat...er..sensei may have heard of him.

P.S.
Why is it again that THIS guy is so sure HIS scrolls weren't bought and sold, but he is as astute in uncovering fakes as a Lloyd's of London auctioneer when it comes to the scrolls of everybody elses schools? Explain this to my like I was a 4-year-old.

[gmellis]

Andrew,
Do that. We don't get enough comedic value around here as it is, what with most of the koryu wise-crackers migrating to some secret garden guarded by Tengu. Keep us posted. And I have the names of a few koryu women that could probably slice this guys nuts into perfectly square cubes if he ever wants to "prove" that women are merely dogs for our leashes and whips. Cheers

[MarkF]

Oh, My yes! Milk it for all it's worth. Eventually, someone will figure it out.

Wasn't the last koryu the one right before they used the term "koryu?"


A quote: "You want Meiji? I'll give you Meiji!"

****

Oh, this is great! Finally, we get to bust a gut about a "koryu" that was around before 1956.


Mark

[Ronnie Nakamura]

Andrew,

This would'nt be the same dude that refused to tell the name of the art he taught to his own students would it? This sounds amazingly familiar. Or is this strange behavior the norm in Australian koryu dojo's? Ask this koryu guy to show up at the aiki expo next September and voice his opinion to Sensei Kuroda in person. I'll bet he would dare.

If this is the same guy who refuses to tell anyone what style he teaches, look out! Jerry Johnson will be over here in seconds to attack everyone who thinks that this guy is full of himself. He'll especially attack Dave Lowry for his post, since like Toby Threadgill, Dave Lowry has a sense of humor and has an expert opinion based on actual knowledge of the subject.

_

BTW...after some research I have learned the our "dude with a tude" Jerry Johnson is actually an beginning Iaido student of Darrel Craig's Houston Budokan. Can you believe this guy! Judging from some posts over on bugei's forum, he's not even cared for much by his own dojomates. Oh, and check out the discussion about a video produced by Jerry's own teacher. Scott Irey say's it's hilarous. Now Jerry Johnson's defense of questionable instructors seems to make more sense. He's evidently the one with an under the surface agenda.

Check out : http://www.swordforumbugei.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000181.html

Ronny Nakamura

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Ronnie Nakamura
This would'nt be the same dude that refused to tell the name of the art he taught to his own students would it? This sounds amazingly familiar.

Yes, it does sound like the same person.

[ghp]

Andrew,

Hmmmm .... I really don't know about this source. I've seen photographs in Hiden of Kuroda Tetsuzan performing enbu at age 5. Don't know the venue, but he's there with his grandfather. The caption stated he was 5 and that his grandfather was the ryu's leader (I forget if it said "soke", "shihan", or whatever) -- but it definitely stated the grandfather was the boss-man.

And yes, I know that Hiden does have some "strange" stuff in it.

Regards,
Guy

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Yobina
Then he said, "Do you know why I would beat anyone who challenges me? Because I know true koryu, I know heiho, I know how to move before you even move. I know more than you. Simply because I know. Not this modern !!!!!!!!.


I wonder how he would fare against our erstwhile companion, Mr. Rich DeLuca?

Originally posted by Soulend


I wonder how he would fare against our erstwhile companion, Mr. Rich DeLuca?


Not a chance.........Deluca of ACMAC Ryu would bore him to death.......or confuse him so much with his uneducated babble he would go insane.

[hyaku]

Originally posted by Yobina

"They wear short short skirts and you can see everything. They don't even care how they sit in the train or that when they squat down you can see their underwear if they wear it! You can see their bum, and it's not nice. It's not right, it's not womanly and it is wrong. Women shouldn't be showing you this. Young Japanese women are stupid. They have no self-respect. I am disgusted at young Japanese women."

Lol This guy isn't exactly looking the other way is he.

Hyakutake Colin

Originally posted by Yobina

.............. "They wear short short skirts and you can see everything. They don't even care how they sit in the train or that when they squat down you can see their underwear if they wear it! You can see their bum, and it's not nice.

I don't know about that........I have seen some pretty nice underwear holding some pretty nice bums in them.
Actually if this guy was such a "Gentleman" he wouldn't know about this kind of stuff because he wouldn't be so rude as to look at them...........I on the other hand have no quams and am not a "gentleman" per say.


Originally posted by Yobina
Young Japanese women are stupid. They have no self-respect.

He is not wrong there...........I meet a LOT of young Japanese woman that are the stereo typical "Dumb Blond"



Originally posted by Yobina
I am disgusted at young Japanese women."

I'm not.....I think they are kinda cute.

Originally posted by Yobina
"A woman is expected to behave like a woman and do as she is told by her father and husband. If she behaves bad the father and husband have the right to chastise her."


Maybe this guy should move back to the Edo Period and run for Shogun.

[Jeff Hamacher]

this invincible koryu master definitely gets his gender role images from the dark ages. as for the little glimpses of heaven provided by miniskirt-clad women in modern japan, well, i'll repeat what Colin wrote: the gentleman doesn't seem to do a good job of averting his gaze! if the women in question are content to become targets of wandering eyes (or slaves to fashion) then that's their choice. if i were a woman, and one that didn't want her nether regions on public display, i'd simply choose different clothing.

meanwhile, back on topic, anybody who believes that they represent the "true koryu" by bragging as this guy reportedly does comes off like a total crank in my mind. 'course i'll withhold final judgement until i, too, become an invincible koryu master.;)

[Cady Goldfield]

Keep in mind that these young women are the product of their upbringing. Their own society and culture works to keep them in a childlike, malleable, dependent state (where else would "Hello Kitty" products be marketed to 30-year-old women?).

What's-his-face should think more about the importance of raising girls to be responsible and to have self-respect, rather than to criticize them for being the results of how they were raised by their parents and by their surrounding society.

The root cause, not the symptoms.

It's not nature vs. nurture..........it's just a case of plain ol' nurture.
In the past and to some extant even now girls in Japan are expected to act subservient and childlike (if not even childish) and the people that expect this dumbing down and maximum I.Q. level of 69 are old gits like the guy complaining about their underpants showing.

[Scott Irey]

Having been a longtime resident of Japan as well as being married to a very Japanese woman for the last 15 years, I feel I have the right to say that you really need to remove your own cultural filters before you start making comments on the upbringing and behavior of such a large group of people as "Japanese women". I myself find your opinions more than a little bit offensive and I am not a Japanese woman...at least not the last time I checked.

[Cady Goldfield]

Well, Scott, how else would you explain the trend toward childlikeness? Besides, here we happen to be discussing a Japanese man commenting on his own countrywomen. If we were having a discussion of societal pressures and results in other countries, including the US or Canada, we'd be looking at the causes and effects there instead.

Instead of being all offended, put on the eye of objectivity and use your intelligence and powers of observation and analysis.

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Well, Scott, how else would you explain the trend toward childlikeness? Besides, here we happen to be discussing a Japanese man commenting on his own countrywomen. If we were having a discussion of societal pressures and results in other countries, including the US or Canada, we'd be looking at the causes and effects there instead.

Instead of being all offended, put on the eye of objectivity and use your intelligence and powers of observation and analysis.


Agreed!

Some interesting "classifications" of Japanese and Gaijin living (or used to live) in Japan here:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14070&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
>> Keep in mind that these young women are the product of their upbringing. (emphasis mine)<<

i think that this distinction helps to address your concerns, Scott: some young japanese women are quite infantile and perhaps "irresponsible" or lacking in self-respect, too. even the japanese mainstream media have been covering issues such as sexual promiscuity among many japanese young people, and we're not talking about simple "sleeping around". some of these folks are convinced that they'll only come up HIV-positive "if i sleep with a foreigner", so they "protect" themselves by restricting their active roster of 6 or 7 sex partners to japanese friends. high school girls work in "blow-job houses" without worrying that they may contract an STD. there certainly seems to be a band of japanese youth, for lack of a better term, that is dangerously naive and particularly unwilling to come to terms with the dangers of life in the adult world.

>> Their own society and culture works to keep them in a childlike, malleable, dependent state (where else would "Hello Kitty" products be marketed to 30-year-old women?). <<

japan, on the whole, is pretty backwards when it comes to gender roles, and as Cady points out, the wall holding back a critical mass of major societal change is comprised of graying, balding, heavy-spectacled, navy-suit-clad men. by comparison, though, other so-called developed nations such as the US or canada are currently being led around by multi-national corporations who are hell-bent on widening their profit margins through carefully planned consumer programming. those companies want the buying public to be "stupid" or malleable in much the same way that Sanrio hopes japanese adult women will keep buying their Hello Kitty products. where's the difference? perhaps it hasn't reached a stage where high school girls in downtown toronto are selling plastic bottles of their urine to eagerly-buying middle-aged men, as they do in shibuya ... or has it?

in terms of gender equality, i wouldn't say that japan is "bad" where other countries are "good", any sooner than i would say that "all japanese women are childlike, malleable, and dependent" while their sisters elsewhere are "mature, resolute, and independent". i think the fairest description i can give is that, in japan, the balance of power in the struggle for equality still lies firmly in the conservative camp. japan as a society prizes conformity (no surprise there). until it can allow the balance to slip towards greater acceptance of individual freedom, neither japanese young women nor men will really be ready to grow up.

say, weren't we talking about some loudmouth "invincible koryu master" a few posts back?;)

Originally posted by Yobina
................."This technique will stop your heart." He said. "It will penetrate through the armour or whatever you are wearing."


BS! He is talking pure crap..........have him prove it.
I am always leary in people that make such claims but never prove it.
When asked to do so they always say "It's far too dangerous blah, blah, blah."

They hide behind the safety of people unwilling to volunteer to have it done to them or say it is too dangerous etc...........either way their ass is covered.

Originally posted by Yobina

He said that the tachi and katana would easily cut through the opponents kabuto with a downward strike. Something I also have trouble with. His students all nodded knowingly but I just don't buy it. Sure if the kabuto is on a fixed stand and you take a great big unhindered swing (this is kabutowari as performed by Obata) it will cut, but still....................



Striking the Kabuto is pretty useless and stupid since it doesn't do much for your sword and could break it or render it totally useless, so if you don't kill him with the first cut..............you're in trouble...............also, since it would be on a battlefield he most likely wouldn't be alone. Therefore if you have FUBARed your own katana doing such a stupid cut his friends will have a field day cutting you up.

Originally posted by Yobina
...............Are these things normally taught to students of koryu as fact? Perhaps they are exagerations that have been passed on as fact? Perhaps this guy is just full of.......ah......natto. I dunno.
Anyone wanna try to explain?

I have seen many Japanese teachers like this abroad (as well as in Japan). Some real sxxxt talkers.
They know they can pretty much say anything they want to foreigners about Japanese arts (I have seen it done many times by Japanese Karate teachers :rolleyes: )
They figure since they are the "Expert from abroad" and it is "their countries art" not yours then they are the "experts" and you must swallow everything they say hook, line and sinker.................

One of the most knowledgeable people about Japanese koryu I have ever seen and met is Otake sensei of Katori Shinto.
His explanations are logical and well thought out without all the mystical, hypothetical mumbo jumbo.
What I like most about Mr. Otake is he can "walk the talk".

The "master" you keep mentioning sounds like he has watched too many "ninja" movies........and now believes them to be real.

[Nathan Scott]

I know it is probably not necessary to bother countering the statements by this "koryu" master, but just in case there are any doubts by those reading:

1) Komagawa Kaishin ryu is not an unknown art. It is in fact a rather well known art that most people have simply not heard of (if that makes sense). It was one of a handful of well known ryu-ha founded by direct students of Kamiizumi Nobutsuna (founder of Shinkage ryu). Some time ago I flipped through the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten, and noticed that this book lists the Kuroda family as the last five successors of this system. Also Tamiya ryu, another of the systems taught by Kuroda Tetsuzan, is also listed there, and the Kuroda family is again listed as the last five generations of successors - Kuroda Tetsuzan's being named specifically as the current headmaster.

2) The "Koryu teacher" in question picked the wrong ryu-ha when he spoke of Maniwa nen ryu being suspicious. This is one of the oldest ryu-ha extant, and while it does not have a spotless succession line (almost none of the very old ones seem to), the Nen ryu in Maniwa (aka: Maniwa nen ryu) has been passed down in Maniwa-machi within the Higuchi family for MANY generations. I've visited the dojo, and have been translating their keizu as time permits.

3) The kabutowari test that my teacher Obata Sensei conducted was not really a cut, but a "split", as the name of the test implies. It was in fact one of the longest/deepest splits recorded in history, but would probably not have reached the skull of someone had they been wearing it. This kind of test is performed for a few reasons, but trying to sever the head of the wearer is, to my knowledge, not a realistic goal. By the way, the kabuto that Obata Sensei split was not secured down at all, but rather laid loosly upon a tree stump.

Also, FWIW, I would be happy to strike the armor of an opponent if striking around the armor was not attainable of if a good opportunity presented itself to attack the armor. But I know that this way of thinking is not the popular or trendy opinion right now!

;)

Regards,

[Jeff Hamacher]

i like Robert's reactions to what the "master" has to say. this fellow is "pitching" his art in the same way that authors of books with titles like "The 100 Deadliest Karate Moves - Ever!!!" peddle their wares (trivia: i stole the title idea from a recent Iaido-L thread). he's desperate to impress with examples of how devastating and powerful these techniques are, but to me they belie a certain inefficiency.

to pick up on Robert's TKSKR reference, just watch the fight choreography that Otake-sensei helped put together in the film Ame Agaru. i played one major fight scene on slow two or three times simply to check each little step. to me eye, there was hardly a wasted motion, and none of it involved dramatic stances such as jodan-no-kamae or complicated set-ups such as finding yourself face-to-face with your unarmed opponent so you can strike the breastplate of their armour with your open hand (on the assumption that you, too, have somehow become unarmed in the course of the fight).

my experience with jo is very limited; in fact, i'm still finishing up the memorization of the Kendo Federation's Seiteigata and haven't begun working on Shinto Muso-ryu's koryu curriculum. still, my observations are that SMR doesn't rely on secret weapon, "one-inch-punch" style techniques. yes, some techniques cause a fair amount of pain (particularly blows to the solar plexus; if they're applied really well, the pain moves like a shock wave over yer whole body), but there's no cardiac arrest involved. in many situations, the jo is targeted at the opponent's eyes, again, in order to shock or scare the will to fight out of them. if the "master" is talking about techniques where armour was worn, SMR jo may be a little too modern for that. one of the guiding principles of SMR jo is similar to the Hippocratic Oath: practioners were/are expected to do no harm in the execution of the techniques. we wouldn't train to learn how to kill, as this "master's" art seems intent on teaching. but as i wrote above, he's describing very energy-intensive techniques which seem out of place in koryu, or even modern martial arts.

one further note on the efficiency argument: Mr. Lowry will have to sound off again in order to confirm, but i recall reading a comment in his excellent article "The Luxury of Anger" about how the techniques of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu will target the poorly armoured portions of the body, such as the backs of the knees. why would you waste precious seconds of a mortal engagement bashing at someone's helmet or breastplate when you could land a painful, blood-gushing blow at a proverbial Achilles heel?

wow, that turned into a slightly longer ramble than i originally counted on! looking forward to more insights.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Yobina
I asked last night about samurai armour and the effectiveness of this guys stricking techniques. He told me that the striking techniques in his school would cause damage behind the armour! That the impact of the strike was directed through the armour. He demonstrated. He placed his left palm on an opponents chest at the centre (sturnum?) and then quickly struck his own left hand with his right palm. The opponent staggered backwards grasping his chest, and the teacher massaged it until he felt better.

"This technique will stop your heart." He said. "It will penetrate through the armour or whatever you are wearing."

Not to change the subject, but this sounds like a Yagyu Shingan ryu technique. At least two branches of this school, that I know of, uses this same technique at the end of the kata.

[Jeff Hamacher]

the article that i mentioned above is not the one discussing some of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu's insights into targeting against an armoured opponent; in fact, it's this chapter (http://koryu.com/library/dlowry5.html) from Mr. Lowry's Persimmon Wind. pardon the error.

Originally posted by Yobina
Mr Rousselot, I have come across Japanese teachers making silly impossible stories too many times also, and the moment you try to question it they dismiss you as a stupid gaijin who can't possibly know anything.


If you question them or dismiss them they come back with "Gaijin can't understand the true Japanese martial spirit" and other related clap trap. :rolleyes:
Which is a good time to ask them to put up or shut up.



Originally posted by Yobina
So am I right in assuming that there are some shonky Japanese koryu teachers, just like there are shonky gendai budo arts teachers?



In or from Japan................too many for me to count

[Jeff Hamacher]

Originally posted by Yobina
>> ... I'm not sticking up for this guy, but he didn't appear to use much force at all. It was almost magical in the sense that all he did was reposition his body and strike with the opposite hand on top of his own. There didn't even seem to be much power behind it. The student on the receiving end however showed otherwise. <<

given this information, i admit that i may have drawn a premature conclusion. perhaps this teacher does deliver maximum force from minimum effort, to borrow from our judo friends. still, as regards this breastplate strike, i'd like to know if it is the most effective or efficient way to stop dead an armoured but probably weaponless opponent (i.e. if it really does induce cardiac arrest, great, but if it simply causes pain, why not break or dislocate a joint instead, for example?). based on what you saw, do you believe that the technique could be consistently and quickly applied against a moving attacker? i believe that my upthread comments about sword targets still stand.

>> I have come to the conclusion that some teachers (yes koryu included) are simply just glossing over things and adding things to capture the attention of those who don't know much. The whole Samurai lineage and secret techniques is a good way to do this. <<

it seems to me that any koryu teacher who tries to pitch their school like this to prospective students probably isn't worth their salt, even if the school they claim to represent is for real. my jo teacher has never given me a song-and-dance routine about SMR to keep me interested; he just concentrates on my progress and, without excessive comment, gives me new material when he thinks that i'm ready.

>> This teacher claims to do a lot of research and reads a lot of books, but most of his stories to me seem to be from those cheapy 80's ninja magazines! <<

i'm sure that some "true" teachers of koryu are given to making strong statements on occasion, perhaps after a few drinks. however, any martial arts teacher who makes a habit of talking up their own abilities or training history and conversely running down all other martial arts teachers is displaying a character trait that you probably don't want in an instructor.

>> So am I right in assuming that there are some shonky Japanese koryu teachers, just like there are shonky gendai budo arts teachers? <<

judging from what i've read, yes, it would seem so.

[Jerry Johnson]

Mr. Turner,

I am not sure what you are getting at with this thread. I don't mean to sound any other way then factual, as bland toast.

This what I am getting from you, correct me if I am wrong, that those who say they are Koryu isn't all ways the case. You have experience based on you threads and post this one guy, I don't understand if you think his is full of poop why peruse it any farther with several threads and many postings.

If you think the guy isn't worth a [dime] based on your experiences with him and his school, I say to each is his own and walk away. Though, I am not clear on is your history and background with this instructor that you have invested some effort into delineating him in a bad light ( accurate or not ). I say this to get a better picture of your point. Because what I am reading from your various threads and posts that some Japanese Koryu instructors can be "shonky" like anyone else. you said
So am I right in assuming that there are some shonky Japanese koryu teachers, just like there are shonky gendai budo arts teachers? True, we are all human, and it would be ignorant to think otherwise. The Japanese art are no different then the other arts when it comes to BS This is something that is rightly evident in publications, personal experiences, and just knowing that the instructor is human.


Clearly you are an intelligent person and I am being strictly academic here, I find it hard to think that an obvious and elementary conclusion is the depth of your point. And you keep doggin this guy over and over again. There has to be more to that then just the above mentioned. Your packing quit the punch for this guy and I simply just want to know why? I am not sure if you wanted to learn from him, or felt ripped of, rejected, a rival school, an argument, if it was someone you came across and he rubbed you the wrong way, or what? For what reason do you need to ring the bell and spot light this guy who may have never been heard of here on E-budo?

I say this because if I wanted to know if an instructor was legit or not, it would be short and sweet per a previous post of me. Or as other have done, i.e. Is sensei X full or crap or not?

For me this post isn’t about Koryu as Koryu. That is for example, does koryu have value in today’s world; fighting the martial arts evolution. It’s not about you Mr. Turner. It is about, academically a common conclusion; which I don’t think you are more intelligent and skilled to make this your conclusion. And what has motivated you to invest your time and effort to build a case that ends structurally very board and general. An answer may provide a better understanding of the purpose( academically) of your point and it’s structure for the critical reader like myself.

Your response is greatly appreicated.

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
It is about, academically a common conclusion; which I don’t think you are more intelligent and skilled to make this your conclusion. And what has motivated you to invest your time and effort to build a case that ends structurally very board and general


ACAMAC!!



Cheers,

Mike

[Jerry Johnson]

Mike, thanks for filling me in, I got, thanks again.

I noticed I needed to make a correction

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
It is about, academically a common conclusion; which I don’t think you are more intelligent and skilled to make this your conclusion. And what has motivated you to invest your time and effort to build a case that ends structurally very board and general
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This should read as follows: It is about, academically a common conclusion; which I [DO] think you are more intelligent and skilled to make [that] your conclusion. And what has motivated you to invest your time and effort to build a case that ends structurally very board and general[.]

That is Mr. Turner may have a purpose in the way he concluded. As I don't think his academically skills are lacking by leaving us with a weak conclusion in a thread he did author, as "koryu attitude."

Side note: I wonder what is a koryu attitude, since koryu spans a great number of arts both martial and non-martial and the time in which they flourished. All of Which can and do share common threads, themes, and philosophies etc. So is koryu an individual practitioner’s or artist's attitude toword the art which can be changed by time and place. Or is it a group thing, long dead with the passage of time and circumstance of those who live it? An attitude that is historic period in nature and is only relative to those who live in those times when things where considered Koryu?


I am going to make this a new thread.

[Jerry Johnson]

Originally posted by Yobina
Mr Johnson,

You've learnt some manners since jumping in on one of my previous posts, good on you.


Generally, I'm using this guy and his opinions to learn about the koryu arts. Is that so wrong?

Mr. Turner, I have been at E-Budo for a while now, I have always had manners- read some of my earlier posts. But, unfortunately what has happen is when you are treated rudely by others and talked down too, you become defensive, at least for me, and then return posts in kind. You get harden and jaded, and realize there are very few really good people who are here not to turn E-Budo into a shouting match of flames and insults which are better men and woman then I, and thus, who maintain respect for others.


Secondly, I am glad you posted a reply. I found your post interesting and informative. Really one of your better posts.

Lastly, I have no problem with what you are doing. I full support verifying a person. I am just weary for many reasons which I have explained before when someone's name is mentioned. I know your goal can be achieved without stating someone's name. Something that was an unwritten rule at E-Budo. And I just still maintain that philosophy. I guess it goes back to the early Rec-martial arts group where that was common creating nothing but hostility and fame wars. Also, in some cases proper Budo culture can be labeled as being fraudulent when some is being aggressive in getting information. i.e. a Sensei being private and BS a student to detour the student can be mistaken as being a sign of a fraudulent instructor. This is something that has to be carefully looked at, and delineated.. The written word is difficult to interpret the whole picture or create it. And old Zen saying I read once states that words lie. Also sometime skill is overlook and emphasis is placed on information and academics. We must keep in mind in this world of cyber words that skill is paramount. That is, talk and Japanese terms, ranks, etc are less important in terms of skill that determines the outcome. You can debate and bush off the flames when your wrong, but it is hard to call the other guy a moron if your face in the dirt. Also I apologize if you though I hijacked your other thread. But if you noticed it was doomed after a handful of post anyway. That is when your thread is turned into a free for all, by all those who make it sport to flame because they can. Your current thread if you haven’t noticed has survived longer with less noise because a name hasn’t been used.

Again I appologize if you felt you were highjack on one of your threads.

[ben johanson]

I am currently studying a koryu (Kashima Shinryu) and can safely say that the comments made by this koryu teacher are pretty far off the mark but not entirely surprising. As I have seen people comment on this board before, just because someone is a koryu master does not automatically make them infinitely knowledgeable about history-either Japanese, military or even that of their own schools in some cases.

In response to the comments about fighting in armor, yes it certainly is possible to raise your arms above your head to make a cut, as usually only the highest ranking commanders wore such large and flamboyant datemono on their helmets, but trying to cut through the kabuto with a sword was not a realistic or common battlefield tactic by any means. Apparently though, striking at the helmet with one's weapon was done to sort of daze the opponent to set up some other attack, even though doing so could potentially damage a sword or break a spear.

But according to my teacher all koryu techniques for armored fighting he has ever seen demonstrated are centered around cutting and thrusting at weak points or gaps in the armor, and this certainly holds true for the one Kashima Shinryu kata set for fighting in armor that we do (which incidently I just learned this week for the first time). It seems that a lot of armored sword fighting resulted in a grappling type situation, given the prevelence of such techniques in the koryu, where the combatants would end up meeting tsuba to tsuba (tsubazeri)and each one would try to throw the other to the ground and stab at the gaps in his armor. This was probably much more common than someone actually trying to cut through a helmet.

[MarkF]

While Kendo is certainly not the same, it is to the point of where points are scored and grappling does come into it, as well, particularly that of Japan.

Lots of striking to the head but then they don't score, either. There are reasons for these things, they aren't simply made up.


Mark

[hyaku]

Beats me.... I can only speak for the Koryu I represent. So here goes...........

We here of all these amazing techniques of defeating an armed man. If you had enough element of surprise or an amazing technique and sense of timing, I dare say it would be possible.

A set of armour weighs around 12 kilos (26 Lbs). Would not bother me too much. I wear more in weights when I go diving with equipment.

With a reasonable amount of experience in both unarmed combat and using long and short swords I know which side I would rather be on. I would not want to put it to the test.

One can draw a Tanto pretty quick. Anyone close enough on the actual draw would sustain some nasty injuries. Maybe lose that hand he is trying to thrust into the chest. As for getting behind someone you would perhaps have to creep up beforehand?

Jodan kamae? I've never seen it yet in what I do. Why should anyone want to raise a sword above their head when wearing a helmet? Its all very high Hasso-kamae.

The tests carried out on cutting amour are to test both the sword makers craftsmanship as an ultimate cutting weapon and the excellent techniques of the sword user but are not standard practice. If the case arose that we did not find the target we require a weapon that can still do some damage.

If this were fact all my hours of practicing cutting between the legs, under the arms and through the neck might as well be discounted as nonsense. You see an opening you cut it!

Lastly and again I have to say people are yet again not giving enough credit to thrusting techniques with a nice curved weapon. It really is not necessary to wield these weapons up into the air to cause injury.

I have a nice 1.2 that will cut a screen door into enough to break into a house and stab somebody before they can get behind me.

I suggest a bit less time spent on trains and a bit more time practicing with actual weapons to further increase the knowledge of unarmed combat would help.

Hope no one thinks I have an attitude. It's just that with my present level of practice and position I feel that I should comment. I am far from swayed that just because someone is Japanese, they must know what they are are talking about.

Here in Japan whether its Koryu or Gendai we meet some nice knowledgeable people but also a few wierdo's. Your average Japanese perhaps thinks anyone doing these things whether new or old are a bit strange anyway!

Sorry its long.......

Hyakutake Colin

Kageryu

Hyoho Niten Ichiryu

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Turner,

Your "koryu" friend (how do we know he is a real koryu teacher to begin with?) is a good laugh. As mentioned, older koryu like Maniwa nen ryu do not have flawless lineages, but it is one of the more solid lineages of that length that I've seen. The art has been passed down in one dojo/location only for many generations by the various headmasters. Anyway, Mr. Amdur just came out with his new book "Old School", which I just got in the mail, and it has a reprint of his outstanding article on this art if anyone is curious. The book has a great deal of good information in it, so be sure to pick it up.
As far as Kuroda Sensei, he is the head of at least 3 or 4 ryu-ha (the jujutsu one is spelled "Shishin takuma ryu", not shinshin). However, these are arts that have been passed down within his family for several generations, and it would appear as though Kuroda Sensei (of one of his ancestors) has more or less combined the unique principles of these arts into one cohesive operating system. The effect is something closer to the feeling of one comprehensive ryu-ha, rather than a number of "different" ryu-ha. I'm not qualified to evaluate how well preserved or logical these systems are currently, but can say that I'm quite impressed with Kuroda Sensei's skill level as a budo-ka.

But your buddy is right about people who try to master numerous ryu-ha (taught by different teachers). Many gendai arts are not as thick as koryu are, so it may easier to do in the case of gendai, but koryu would be impossible unless it was a situation similar to that of what Kuroda Sensei has inherited.

Thanks for the laughs,

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Mr Scott, how can I prove/disprove this guy is a legite koryu teacher?

It may be easy, or it may be tough. I would start with asking him about his training, who his teacher was, what his ranking is, etc. Next, giving us his name, art and whatever info you have on him would be a helpful step. Chances are someone can trace the art, if it is ligit, back to Japan and ask around there. If it does exist in Japan, the Honbu should be able and willing to confirm or deny affiliation with this person.

So Kuroda has these five traditions melded into one cohesive system at his Shudokan dojo? Isn't this the same thing Hatsumi Masaaki has done with his nine traditions?

I don't know. But I don't think Hatsumi's arts have been passed down through his family for generations, and I don't know if he combines the principles of movment from the various ryu-ha into everything he teaches. Also, I'm not the person to state authoratatively what is or isn't being taught at the Shudokan dojo of Kuroda Sensei. If your really curious, ask him directly or one of his students (of maybe someone will come on here and contribute).

Of course I agree with the whole concept of staying effective no matter what the time frame, and being able to adapt to all types of situations. But wouldn't a koryu still have techniques that are reminiscent of the Edo period, or at least recognisable as samurai type techniques?

In most cases that seems to be the case. How a headmaster of holder of full transmission chooses to transmit their art will vary on the personallity of the teacher though. It is a tough call. Adapting the methods while maintaining the operating system and "tradition" might get you more students, since visitors would be able to see more clearly what is really being taught. But it might be bastardizing the tradition as well, and you would have to have a lot of confidence to restructure the tradition that boldly. I think it would be unusual at the very least.

Regards,

[ghp]

Tamiya ryu-iaijutsuNot the Batto Tamiya Ryu established by Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu's successor, Tamiya Heibei Narimasa?? Tamiya inherited Shinmei Muso Ryu and is recorded as the 2nd soke of MJER; he later established his own system.

See other mentions of Tamiya Ryu here: http://www.koryubooks.com/guide/tamiya.html

Regards,
Guy

[Nathan Scott]

Hey Guy,

No, not THE Tamiya ryu. The founder of the line of Tamiya ryu iai that Kuroda Sensei teaches is recorded in the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten as being founded by the son of Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, Kamiizumi no Hidenobu.. For some reason, Kamiiizumi apparently told his son to study iai instead of master and inherit his own art (Shinkage ryu). He apparently did so and founded his own system. Hidenobu at some point changed his name to "Tamiya Gonzaemon (Muneshige?)". Strange, but that is apparently the deal.

Kuroda Sensei states that the kanji for his line of iai is Tami-ya, whereas the more popular line uses kanji for Ta-miya. I have the kanji for both, but would really rather not look up their meanings unless your really curious!

Regards,

[ghp]

Hi Nathan, and thanks for the explanation. I'm familiar with the kanji for Ta-Miya, but not the other. Don't go searching for the "tami" kanji -- but thanks for the offer.

Best,
Guy

[Nathan Scott]

Guy,

No worries. BTW, I like the new photo of yourself in your avatar. Is it an old photo or recent?

Yuck yuck yuck...

[Cady Goldfield]

I told Guy he looked much better with a buzz cut than a mullet, but would he listen to me? Nooooooo!:p

[ghp]

Howdy Nathan,

It's a recent photo -- here's the full photo http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?postid=137789

Cady,

You are such a sweet young thing ... so polite to such an old man such as I. And yes! You did "inspire" me!! ;)

Cheers,
Geezer-Guy

[John Bullard]

Hi Mr. Scott and Mr. Power,

As a long time reader and first time poster, I thought I would add in what Kuroda Sensei told me in regards to the lineage of his style of Tamiya-ryu. He said that the style comes thru the following: Hayashizaki Jinsuke to Tamiya Heibei to Nagano Murakusai to the style's founder, Tamiya Gon-emon. I will double check with him to make sure, but I asked him twice, and these are the names he gave me both times. I also, originally understood the first name of the style's founder to be Gonzaemon, but Kuroda Sensei corrected me to Gon-emon.

Mr. Scott, do you happen to know of an English translation of the Bugei Ryu-Ha Daijiten?

I hope this gives you a little more information on the Ryu's lineage.

John Bullard

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Bullard,

Thanks for the correction and additional info.

Unfortunately, there is no (known) English translation of the BRDJ, and that is the problem. It would be a brutal book for most people to translate. Most people just translate what they need as they need it.

The BRDJ did list 12 generations of headmaster for the art with the Kuroda family being the last five generations (including Kuroda Tetsuzan).

But as you may know, trying to guess at the proper translation of a person's name is a bitch. Quite honestly, I find I'm wrong more than I'm right, even though I typically have help from a native Japanese speaker. I wish more publishers would use furigana for things like names.

Regards,