What distinguishes good tameshigiri?

[Charlie Kondek]

Hi all. I'm curious about something. I don't do tameshigiri regularly myself, and when I do it's been as a real marginal exercise. (I think I can count the number of times I've done it on one hand.) But I've seen demonstrations of it, and I'm wondering: how can the observer tell if it's any good or not? Is it just making a straight line through the target, displaying good hasuji? Or is there something more? Seems to me that with a decent sword and a tight enough roll, anybody can cut through them. So what are the tell-tale signs of a more advanced practitioner?

Arigato.

[Marc Renouf]

As it was explained to me, some of the hallmarks of a good cut are a straight cut at the "correct" angle (depending on the cut used), with no raggedness to the individual fibers of the wara (i.e. the cut is uniform all the way across). Similarly, the cut should impart very little momentum to the free piece of the wara, such that it falls rather than goes whizzing across the room. Someone skilled at tameshigiri can cut a wara, then reverse and cut the free piece in midair cleanly. I've seen my instructor do it, and it's pretty impressive. Similarly, cutting from iai is more difficult than just whacking the thing, and requires skill and practice. Another thing to think about is ending position; a lot of people focus so much on swinging as hard as they can that their body alignment goes out the window (been there, done that). Finally, good tameshigiri should be effortless, and that's (IMHO) the hardest part.

Certainly a sharp sword helps, but tameshigiri is actually a lot harder than it looks. Even if you can get the sword all the way through the wara, if your cut is messy or you have to muscle it or your ending kamae is poor, it's all for naught.

[chrismoses]

Lots of things add up to good tameshigiri technique. Many are the same things that make you go 'wow' while watching kata. Is there good control of the sword, are the movements relaxed, is posture correct? One of the things that impresses me most is when someone cuts within kata, as opposed to performing a 'kata' of specific cuts on a target.

As an observer, I look for displacement of the severed target and the sound of the cut more than anything else. Good cuts have a weird zipper sound. If you hear a 'thunk' noise that's bad, it generally means the hasuji was incorrect and the target was hit on the stand. In general (although I can think of specific stylistic exceptions) the sword should stop relatively close to the exit point of the target. In my style we strive to stop the blade immediately after leaving the target, the feeling of a cut piece sliding off the target and rolling off of the end of your stationary blade is simply divine... At a taikai last year, I saw a practitioner of Yagyu Shinkage ryu perform a perfect kesa giri cut on a free standing target (resting on the floor, unspiked) which he cut from standing while dropping to his knee. The remaining target didn't move a bit and the free piece landed about a foot from the cut. Man I just wanted to scream it was so pretty.

I think a lot of people go through a period where their cutting gets worse than when they started. We encourage people to just get through the target at first. Frequently this is at the expense of good form, they tend to lean into the cut, and follow through much more than they would ever do with a cut in kata. While this may get through the target, it leaves the practitioner open to counter attack (theoretically anyway, so far I haven't been attacked by any rogue makiwara ^_^). As you begin to reign in your cutting and (hopefully) unify it with your kata work, things stop working (or working as well). In my mind this is the real value of tameshigiri, good kata work teaches you the form of the sword and then tameshigiri teaches you the physicality of going through a target. Hopefully that helps your kata work by creating more realistic cutting and eventually they are one and the same, you simply cut, wether you are going through a physical target, an imaginary attacker or your partner's bokken/ shinai. But I'm digressing a bit from what makes for good tameshigiri...

[Charlie Kondek]

Interesting. Thanks for your replies! I understand tameshigiri is more essential to some styles of swordsmanship than others, and that some iaido schools (mine, for example, MSR) have picked it up as a way of testing hasuji (but without putting the emphasis on it that some schools do). (In my iaido/kendo practice, we have also cut through a hanging string, and through a newspaper held up at either corner.)

So with this in mind I went over to bugei.com to watch the James Williams cutting video right there on the front index page. Very interesting - he does that thing you talked about where he cuts a big ass piece off and then cuts that piece before it hits the ground.

Okay, without meaning to sound belligerent or provoke anyone - any examples on the net of bad tameshigiri; anybody have examples of bad tameshigiri to share?

(Heck, I'll start - I tried a horizontal "wagon wheel" cut on a makiwara once and sent it hurtling across the room with a gash halfway through it. Good line drive - bad tamehsigiri?)

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Okay, without meaning to sound belligerent or provoke anyone - any examples on the net of bad tameshigiri; anybody have examples of bad tameshigiri to share?

Yup..all of mine (though of course I'm not on the net doing it) :laugh:

You think your horizontal cut was bad Charlie? At least you hit the thing. Ask Carl McClafferty about one of mine..missed completely, not once, not twice, but three times! Granted, it was just a stub of a piece that I was trying to cut, neccesitating a VERY low 'horse' stance..but I was so damn embarrassed. Maybe I was afraid of hitting the stand or spike..I dunno. Also had a few funky-angled cuts, and even a couple that didn't make it all the way through (and would probably have bent a nihonto..at least one had that sickening 'thunk' sound - all the more sickening with a borrowed sword), due mainly to unintentionally death-gripping the tsuka or twisting at the hips.

One of the things I noted about good tameshigiri was just how simple it looked. Like the wara was no more than a flower stem. Also the abrupt zipper sound. Economy of motion too, and the angle was always exactly the same.

[ghp]

Good:
http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/img/bkcover_anim.gif

Not so good:
http://www.webdiva4hire.com/kenshinkan/tms.html especially that last cut.

Bob Elder used to have some excellent animations on his website -- but I just found out they are no longer available. :(

:D ,
Guy

[Dan Harden]

Target cutting is like Yeagers response to the question
"What makes a good pilot?
Three things
1. practice
2. practice
3. practice

I wouldn't count on getting far without good experienced intruction though.

As for form and function- after you can stay relaxed and cut the damn thing with consistant angle/ body placement-you have many other things to refine over the years. Where are your feet, where is your posture? Where and how can you recover? Can you cut on uneven terrain?
Hard targets (trees) then soft targets while maintaining control (try that in a constant session) it gets interesting.
Shape, form, and return.
Watch one of my students cut and you may see a large swing, with a disproportionate turning of the hips. You will see perhaps the blade descending before the shoulders or hips are ready to engage-or vice versa. I tend to remain square(er) with a short tip follow-through and return. Heck-pull up just about any of the well known sword guys sites and you will see all manner of wide-turning overly-dedicated hip placement down to the sublime small, square, short follow-through.
Anyway then its on to.....how do "you" cut? Meaning styles.

I don't look anything like Guy Power (well there is a resemblence in his avatar but I have some hair) no..no.... er..I mean in cutting. Yet both work well.There are actual stylistic differences.

Think about your forward leg-partcularly your knee- then where the rest of you.......is.
It just takes time and good instruction Charlie.

Cheers
Dan

[Charlie Kondek]

Thanks, guys. Yeah, like I said, tameshigiri has not been an emphasis in my iai practice. Just sort of a once or twice-a-year hasuji exercise. But I wanted to be better informed when watching a demo or something, you know? These are very informative replies.