View Full Version : Jujutsu stye associated with Jigen Ryu Sword
11-29-2002, 09:32 PM
One of the big patriarchs of karate is Matsumura Sokon. It's said that he was a master of Jigen Ryu style of swordmanship.
Would there be a Jujutsu style associated with this school of swordmanship, and what would it have been called?
Also, would one be able to see this jujutsu form either on the web or in video?
12-02-2002, 08:36 AM
My own current understanding is that samurai of any given clan learned about eighteen martial arts or so, not including any special clan or family arts, ranging from horsemanship, swordsmanship, swimming in armor, archery from horseback, spear, and jujutsu/ kogusoku/ yawara /kempo /torite or whatever the unarmed arts were called.
The clan which used the Jigen Ryu, I believe possibly the Shimazu but I may be wrong here,would have been little different.
Story as I heard it, was that one of their unarmed arts may have been a forerunner art to Aikijujitsu but I am not sure of that, either.
While the Jujutsu forum might seem the best place to ask a question I too, would enjoy the answers to, I believe you might get a better answer, by asking Joe Svinth on the Research Methods Forum, he may actually have this information.Also might ask Joe Swift.
Many of the different Samurai clans practiced similar arts, and the farther back you go the more similar the arts got.Styles as such I understand didn't, for the most part, pop up till after the War period was pretty well over in Japan.Sort of a peacetime development.
What I have understood was that Matsumura who had a certificate or menkyo in Jigen Ryu martial arts, taught Motobu's ancestor the Palace Hand or Gotente(Udundi in Okinawan) of the Jigen Ryu.But Matsumura if he did this, had a slight contempt for those arts as he said they were arts more suited for women.So we don't know for sure.
Gotente was the name for one of the arts compiled by Sokaku Takeda into Aikijiujitsu.It was also called possibly oshikiuchi or inside techniques, and another forerunner art may have been tenshin shin'yo Ryu Jiujitsu, whcih also figured in Judo's development.
Its funny that the palace art, or one of them in Japan, was called gotente, and one on Okinawa the same allowing for dialect, if they didn't have a common ancestor.
The shimazu samurai's presence as controllers of Okinawa for centuries would indicate their martial arts may have been shared with their Okinawan peichin counterparts.
If these arts were Jigen Ryu, and if the jigen ryu included gotente and or Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu to use an alternate spelling,then those arts did include, as all samurai clans arts did, a jiujitsu iror even an aikijitsu system. These were learned for two purposes by Samurai afaik:One, to control a subject, using locks, and two, to control an enemy at close quarters on a battlefield where two warriors came to grips with one another, either while holding weapons or one with, one without, or both without.
Too, the early Japanese warrior King Tametomo, who conquered Okinawa long before, may have brought sumo or other grappling arts there, he was said to have been a champion grappler.
Considering the type of combat at the time, it would have been necessary to have a technology to deal with this type situation, as did European knights, their was called Grips.It was Jiujitsu, chin na, locking the arm to control the body and the weapon of an opponent at close quarters.
That's all I got, I would ask Joe over at research methods or perhaps he will see this one.
Hope this helps
12-02-2002, 08:45 PM
Joe Swift?? Where is that guy hanging out these days:) ??
Kagoshima-han used to teach jigen-ryu. sokusui-ryu, yamanouchi-ryu, tenshin-ryu, nemoto kage-ryu, takimoto-ryu sword among others at their hankou (domain samurai school). Their is a unique sogo bujutsu school called kurama yoshin-ryu which includes sword, staff, jujutsu and rope-tieing in Kagoshima-ken too. More recent additions from the main island include muso jikiden-ryu, aikido, daito-ryu. Kurama Yoshin-ryu is the only school teaching jujutsu that i know of though.
12-02-2002, 09:25 PM
On this topic, John's descriptions are as good as anything I have. (Which isn't much, as for various reasons, I've never spent much time tracking ryu histories.)
The question was probably facetious, but if it wasn't, the last place I saw Joe Swift online was FightingArts.com.
12-02-2002, 10:04 PM
Thanks for your reply. Joe Swift and I used to work for related organisations over here - I appreciate the heads up!
12-03-2002, 07:15 PM
Thanks very much for the information that what I had, was pretty much what was there as far as I know.
Dan's post seems to suggest maybe a connection between the tenjin shin'yo school and the Jigen Ryu, or at least the compatibility of the two arts.
I appreciate both responses, and yes, Joe Swift is at Fighting arts.com, and at least used to be with SRSI, a fine organization, as was I too.
Again, thanks to both.
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