how to become a sword saint

[Shoki]

I have another question.....

I have always wondered how someone like Musashi became as good as we all think and able to write the Book of 5 rings.... I have read some of his history and by the sounds of it he almost tought himself. Is it a case of him studying for a few years under a teacher and then him picking fights as he goes..then spending years and years practicing by himself and then declaring the book of 5 rings as the way?

These days people spend a lifetime becoming 8th dan Hanshi but Musashi was by all acounts invincible at a young age.....I appreciate that you can't really compare the two as things are a lot different.......

I suppose this is a dificult question to answer and it may be opinions rather than factual based..... but I would like to hear people's views especially those history boffins out there that know Musashi's life a lot better than I.....

Do not get me wrong this thread is by no means questioning Musashi as a swordsman.....I would just like to understand a bit more...look foward to hearing the views

Robert Anderson

[Carlos Estrella]

Musashi (from what I've read) tested himself in battle from a young age. Regardless of whether its by the sword that we fight, or with a firearm, or even with nuclear weapons (Heaven forbid), the one who survives more encounters is either very good or very lucky. Either way, he or she has the experience to know (if they're paying attention) what works and what doesn't.

Does Darwinism apply to swordsmanship? It seems to apply in my opinion, since you can be lucky only so often. As far as becoming a "modern sword saint," I just don't know...

[Dan Harden]

There was just as much hype and nonsense back then as there is now. Was he "really" as good as we all are led to believe? Probably not.
As for your thoughts on needing to spend a life time learning to be a hanshi. That is a load as well. All over the world there are people of every walk, of every race, who just "get it" when it comes to reading people and fighting. They could walk up to most martial artists you know and throunce them soundly.
In the old days...voila!
Martial legend
These days
#$#%#% moron who does not understand the "true" meaning of Budo.

Have you any idea of the number of inept senior practicioners in the arts there are. Were every men required to prove his ability "outside" of his chosen style and dojo, through combative contests in order to retain their position- it would be the end of the arts as we know them.
In what Samurai era do you think you needed even ten years to learn to use a weapon. In the Sengoku Jidai how much time was alotted you to "master" anything? You were off to fight for which ever side you chose. Now you need twenty years and a committee to get it?
Have you really bought into this?
It is designed to perpetuate itself not make able fighters.
Men dream dreams of imagined glory.
Don't take any of this or any of these "teaching" positions too seriously. Many of these men just like being teachers. The good ones just want to keep training themselves and care little for being "teachers." The percentages of truly able people in the martial arts is still very small. With weapons probably even less.

Listen, concentrate on yourself and get better. Challenge yourself at every turn. If you find a good teacher who lives and breathes "outside the box" learn all you can from them. Be very careful of "falling in love" with one tradition so much that you cannot see the forest for the trees eitherwise you can become just another blind artist. Always self access, re-evaluate, look at other arts, and try to see into their hearts, what are their goals and mechanics. Instead of falling for them look for ways to take them apart. Wire frame their movements and "see" openings. Then suffer constant failure and sweat to learn how to do it. The sharp edge, invasive qualities that allow you to cut the centerline and control people's intent and motions are hard won lessons.
You will end up either continually re-inventing the wheel and fooling yourself, or one hell of a fighter.
You will find out somewhere along the way.
Always remember the arts are not about fighting or being martialy able anymore. They are about organizations, drinking buddies, shmoozing, Budo philosophizing, imagined enemy moving meditation, and being part of a scene. You will never come to understand the true nature of the Budo you want. Its over.
Join the military if you want it to be real.
The old budo guys you want to venerate would throw up or laugh their asses off at the antics of most every senior teacher you ever met.

Good luck
Dan

[chrismoses]

It has also been pointed out before that Musashi was apparently really large by Japanese standards. I've even heard that he was nearly 6 feet tall. If you've ever met Big Tony, I suggest you imagine what it would be like to take him on. You may have a similar skill level (or not for most of us) but nature has blessed him with a really poweful body. Contrary to what many schools teach, size matters. Espescially in the real deal where there are no weight classes. As always, please correct me if I'm getting my facts wrong. I'm just digging in the memory banks.

And as Dan pointed out. The time to reach 'mastery' is inversely proportional to how bloody a time period you live in. During warring states, 6 months to a year was a very common time to achieve menkyo kaiden. During the edo period, teachers needed to make a living, so that period was expanded. A lot.

[Shoki]

I think that my question is going to be misunderstood....so I'll try and get it back on track...

I am not asking how somebody becomes a master now in this present era....I know my post is titled that but I mean that to refer to Musashi.....but thanks for the advice....!!!

What I really want to know and you have touched on it is how people in the past learnt to become such good swordsmen.....or wern't they and tales and myths have elevated them to such status, it is I suppose a history type question. You say it may have been lucky to win a couple of fights and yes I can see that but when you read the book of 5 rings it is pretty amazing stuff and very deep.....

How the hell did he learn all that from a handful of fights and by teaching himself in solitude......I understand he was only in one war?

This may be a question that cannot be answered in FACT but I welcome people's opinions....

Many thanks
Rob Anderson

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by Dan Harden
As for your thoughts on needing to spend a life time learning to be a hanshi. That is a load as well.
Let's draw a difference between "good enough to win a fight" and "amazing kendo god". Because that's the difference between a good soldier and a kendo hanshi. We're not learning how to win wars here, we're learning kendo. And those guys that get to hanshi are really really good. I've fought the guys that are naturally talented, the 20 year olds that are competing at the world level for Canada. They're very talented, very quick, very skilled. They feel *nothing* like a hanshi. I've fought a few hanshi and I've seen them effortlessly deal with the young bucks. I can tell you from personal experience you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Dan Harden]

If you are postulating that all senior practioners are X-gods in all the arts by some fine examples in Kendo-then I can tell you from first hand experience that you do not know what the hell YOU are talking about. How about an 8th dan American leader in Aikido who could not throw people or 6th dan Karateka that was literally swept on the floor with by juniors. A senior "sword" teacher who could not get out of the way. 4th and 5th dan Iai people with their swords sitting on the floor at their feet-repeatedly-and done with finesse. A menkyo Kaiden in a jujutsu school who fell over doing kata; twice.
Wake up Neil! The sun shines on a big world of Budo outside Kendo walls. It is sometimes great, very great-it is often not.

My thoughts were more in depth than that and you well know it from reading elsewhere. If you want to play "grab a sentence" and then be strong in commentary go right ahead. I have born witness to three decades worth of excellence as well as inane pretence by head men walking through life. I've plenty of stories to match you with names if I wanted to be rude-which I don't.

Lighten up- I was having fun and giving the kid a heads up to the down side of Budo and using terms like "sword saint" and presumed excellence due to years-in.

Dan

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by Dan Harden

Wake up Neil! The sun shines on a big world of Budo outside Kendo walls. It is sometimes great, very great-it is often not.

Playing grab a sentence once more... it seemed to me like the original poster was drawing a comparison between old-time "greats" (how great we don't know, we all know how accurate history is) and kendo hanshi. If you want to expand the argument to all martial arts and inflated ranks etc well certainly you have a point. But the real point I was taking exception to, and the one that I took from your words, was that there was no improvement over a lifetime's dedication, that somehow if you are athletically talented enough that you can spend a couple of years training and be as good as it gets. It ain't like that. Sure there are frauds. Sure there are people who were awarded their ranks for political reasons and what have you. What I'm saying is, the ones that aren't, which includes all the kendo hanshi I've met, are eerily good martial artists. They start out as those hyper-talented people and keep on learning. At 60 and 70 years old they're still out there schooling the young 'uns, and not just from the sidelines.

[Andy Watson]

Jee-sus Dan!!! Have you had a bad day or something. Talk about aggressive writing!

I am in agreement with you with some of your points but there's no need to go and label the majority of martial artists as good-for-nothing wasters.

As was written in an earlier post, what Musashi and the fighters of his time did was learn the skills required for beating and killing your opponent, no holds barred. What we train in nowadays is mainly an "art" - there are rules, conditions, scenarios and along the way we are expected to transmit a tradition. Hanshi is a label penned by other people for the contribution and training one has put into the propagation of their chosen art and not by the number of people you have killed.

I am sure that Musashi was naturally quite good and once or twice was very lucky. However, as has been written before, he was an incurable loner for most of his life and did very little to transmit his art in comparison with other bujutsu masters of his time.

[Finny]

Neil, I think that the point Dan was trying to make was not that "there is no improvement over a lifetime's dedication", but rather that there is no improvement when you are bestowed with a certificate.

The real essence of the post was the statement "Have you any idea of the number of inept senior practitioners in the arts there are?". In and of itself, this is probably not an accurate statement. I believe that it has been distorted by Dan's tendency to exclusively discuss the arts from his (combat-oriented) viewpoint.

Before you let rip at me Dan, allow me to elaborate. Some might argue with you that these 'inept seniors' are not really inept, because they're not training to fight on a battlefield, they're training in an art .

Also, many would point out the age factor, and that it is irrelevant if an old master is not the toughest guy around, because its his experience and knowlege that counts as a teacher. I was going to use the example of Yoshio Sugino S., for obvious reasons, but you probably get the picture.

I do however agree with the point that many senior instructors these days are not the best examples of their traditions.

For anyone who hasn't read Dan's posts before (this is you Mr Watson), he does tend to be a rather abrupt writer, but there are many who find that refreshing. And if you read for long enough you tend to find out he means no offense.:p

While we're playing grab a sentence, I was pretty surprised to read this one: "Be very careful of 'falling in love' with one tradition so much that you cannot see the forest for the trees oherwise you can become just another blind artist.", especially given the one-eyed devotion you have for your traditions. Not that theres anything wrong with that...

Anyways, that what popped into my head reading this thread.

Cheers,
Brendan

[Rogier]

I have to agree with Dan in respect to the fact that there are far too many people flashing their ranks and titles.. No problem with that but if you can't show your skills on the mat or just plainly suck.... well.....


On the Musashi thing... how did he become a "sword saint", well legends always have part fact and part fiction in them. He probably was very good, but as good as the stories make us believe?? I doubt it.

[Bradenn]

I thought that to become a saint you needed to perform at least two authenticated miracles.

[Rogier]

or you have to be a thief... and drive around in a white volvo p1800

:D

[Charlie Kondek]

Musashi scholarship is, as I understand it, a very serious matter in Japan, because he is revered there (and internationally) and because it takes so much effort to separate his facts from the legends that were in turn compounded by the novels of his life. It is considerably more advanced than Robin Hood scholarship - I mean, they actually know his birth, death, employers, etc.

I think they are quite certain that he received training from his father and perhaps some other mentors, fought an engagement (at Sekigahara was it?) and spent a great deal of time wandering around improving his skills and testing them against other schools. Eventually he landed full-time employment as an officer and weapons teacher to a daimyo (I forget whom, this is from the great article in the first issue of Kendo World magazine) and spent his days studying and teaching (and writing and drawing, mind) eventually penning Go Rin No Sho and transmitting his art to his students, who today can trace their lineage to him through the current soke.

So where does the saint part come in? Good question! If it didn't come about during his days of "walking the earth like Kaine" handing out beat-downs (or cut-downs, more likely) it must have come about in the legends that sprang up in the wake of his blood-stained path, either during his lifetime or in the years following. This is my guess...

Hanging question: Who were some other kensei in Japanese history, and what did they do to become that? Knowing this will help us determine what it takes to be a sword saint.

BTW, did you ever notice that in China they refer to people who are really good at something as "the god of" something. Like, I was reading about a businessman they call "the god of management." And Chow Yun Fat has played a "god of guns" and "god of gamblers." I usually translate this as: super-hero, and wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that, if you have a huge celestial pantheon as your theology, well, then the gods of this and the gods of that can be all around us. Is it similar to being a Japanese "saint"?

[Kolschey]

Here's my unwanted two cents...

I've trained in Kendo for for a few years now, and I would definitely agree that in the realm of Kendo, many Hanshi are very good at what they do. One senior teacher I know suffered a stroke that left half of his body paralysed. Having recovered over the past few years, he moves seemingly without effort whenever I've crossed sword with him, and plays with me like dangling a shoelace for a cat to chase. I've experienced similar skill among other high ranking players.
Just the same, I don't see that as being the same as combat efficiency. As Mr. Harden has pointed out, may of these arts are derivations of battlefield arts. Not the original arts.
Does that make them useless? Absolutely not.
It means, however, that the training that one gets in a kendo dojo is not representative of the sort of instruction one might need in order to go out and meet a line of spearmen in the middle of the Warring States era.
I also agree with his evaluation of the discrepancy between the ranking systems of most current arts, versus the practical considerations of a combat environment.
Some days, I want to scream when I hear one more 35 year old crossranked seventh-dan babble on about the "warrior mindset", "combat efficiency" or "antiterror urban street effective all-you-can-eat " buffet of improvised aikido locks, palm heel strikes, and NHB dogpiling that comprises their new scientific system.
There are real warriors out there. People for whom "combat effectiveness" isn't a patch for their gi, a videotape for $49.95, or a pick up line for the bars. For whom "warriorship" means having to go places you don't want to go, and kill people you'd rather not have to meet.
These are the same people who are presently in Afghanistan on hunting parties for some very unpleasant people. Some of them are about to go over to Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Quatar and Turkey to take care of a very large mess. Some of them won't come back. Some of them will, but with extra things in them they'd rather not have. Some of them will come back with less than what they left with. All of them will have an experience that no clinic, seminar, sash, or weapons collection can give. They are warriors.
It's a good thing to practice martial arts sincerely. There are many benefits. It is important to remember, however, that no matter how long I train in Aikido, Kendo, groundfighting, etc, there is, and will always be, a huge difference between me and the nineteen year old Army Ranger sitting across from me on the bus, who is going to find himself in a month's time in a place that most of us can't even comprehend, and would frankly rather not be.

Just a few thoughts.

[Shoki]

Some interesting points.....

I must say that I had no intention of comparing a modern day hanshi to someone like Mushahi in so much as skills etc.. I don't think that you can.

What I have always been intersted in is how someone like Musashi was singled out in Japanese history and labled a sword saint.

Charlie has a good point....how many others are there ...I don't know of any and how did they become one. Maybe he was a one off as the stories about him etc had an attractive quality when writing about them etc.....and makings films etc....

As regards to the argument over the quality of senior grades epcecially hanshi etc...

I am only Shodan in Iai and can only say that from my point of view British Iai and Kendo is all under the careful eye of the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei and from my limited experience in Iai and Kendo there are no fakes out there.......4th dans are S..T hot and Hanshi well.... I'll tell you when I meet one.....but from what I have been told they are Gods......

I understand that there are breakaway groups out there and that is in my humbled opinion the danger.....the control is lost.....

Rob Anderson

[Walker]

C’mon guys you’re all missing the true path to sword sainthood - a large cash payment to the International Sword Saint Hall of Fame and Sainthood Council.

:rolleyes: Get with the program.....

[Chuck.Gordon]

How'd he get to be a master? He survived.

He was a big mother-(shut your mouth) and crazy to boot.

His technique, from all reports, was basically, walk in, smash his enemy, run away. Worked real good. He lived to tak about it and to dissect and analyze it later.

Chuck

[DCPan]

Hi all,

Despite a search on Amazon Japan, I wasn't able to find the book I am about to suggest.

While Eiji Yoshikawa's Novelization of Musashi is very well known, I actually enjoyed reading the books about adventure of Musashi AFTER the duel at Ganryu Island much more.

I believe the author's last name is Koyama or Ooyama (small mountain). I was fortunate enough to have gotten my hands on an excellant translation of it in Chinese. I don't think a English translation is available yet.

The book is based on the idea that it wasn't until the duel after Ganryu Island that Musashi starts organizing his thoughts and really get on the path for a kensei.

If you can read Japanese or Chinese, I would recommend the book highly. The rough translation of the title would be "Musashi after the Duel at Ganryu Island".

- - -

On a separate note.

It is interesting to read comments about how even experts talk about how in war and battles the odds of success are at best erractic in the chaos, then to judge a martial artist's value on how "combat effective" they are.

I thought I heard interviews with aiki-masters where they say they could may be do a tanto-tori against a REAL assialant successfully 2 or 3 out of 10 times?

The head coach of the Peking Wushu team was picked up and thrown by a construction worker who knows no m.a. at all over a parking space or something like that (heard that back in the 90s). Does that somehow make him a fraud?

Being able to fight well does not imply good technique.

Hanshi are human beings too. Just because they have been awarded such an honor doesn't mean they are infallible, invincible, or even likable people.

Anybody can get a lucky shot in, no matter how good or bad they are...that's the whole nature of a fight.

You show me a guy who says this fight is a sure thing, and I'll show you a .... :D

[Dan Harden]

You show me a guy who says this fight is a sure thing, and I'll show you a ....


Amen to all that, and while I am still having fun and in a playful mood...
Show me a garage mechanic "artist" who can't fix my car and I'll show you a............

At the end of the day, you need to have been able to stand up and be counted in your chosen field. I pity the men who have never been tested, who do not know their own measure.

And David I hope you are not taking the entirety of my post seriously. I didn't.
Sword saint?
I just couldn't help myself.
Rare for me I know ;)


Cheers
Dan

[DCPan]

Hi Dan,

I know, I know. I remember you. Your writing is a nice reality check. I also enjoy listening to different perspectives. That's why I cross-train and yack a lot on the net because I like hearing different things. And I will take you up on the offer to stop by when I visit my relatives in your neck of the woods.

It is just that from my perspective, being a civilian with no vocational necessity to be exposed to sustained aggressive intent (i.e. not a military or police-related), I don't see myself being exposed to that kind of situation barring being incarcerated for doing something stupid or joining a gang. It's kinda like this: if you were a woman, would you put yourself in a situation where you are exposed to plenty of rapists so you learn "proper" self-defense in the event of a rape? I simply don't believe even a truly aggressive training partner will offer the same feel as a real assilant. Practicing a deadlier art means more care in practice, but that's different from feeling threatened by someone.

Incarceration-Do...for only $9.95, I'll include a free training video!

I also simply have a difficult time believing that one art will offer more training against aggressive intent than another based on simple delineations of jutsu vs do vs sport vs blah.

Take kickboxing. Thai kickboxing is a sporting event, is it not? Aggressive intent?

Pro boxing...that's a sport...sustained aggressive intent?

I know Kendo is an abstraction. Rather than getting a strike in ANY WAY you can, it is about having meaningful strike that was properly set up, executed, and deliver. Being able to take someone out of sheer speed and power is cool for about a day or so...but after a while, that get's boring, and you seek something more meaningful. Fencing is a conversation for me, and it's no fun conversing with people who have limited vocabulary or shouts. I am sincere in pursuing kendo in the context which it is designed. As to whether it will make me the street-fighting highlander effective? Who cares? I don't have a trenchcoat to hide my sword in :D

With so much talk of it is the artist and not the art, it is funny to make a decision about the artist based on the art he or she chooses.

An analogy would be this. I like that webpage about the Kotetsu Katana that Mr. Tan was selling a while back...was it on the Shinkendo website or somewhere, it is written that Mr. Obata doesn't endorse any sword that he didn't personally inspect. Doesn't matter if made by the same company, maker, etc....

With more than 400 8th dan kendo hanshis out there, why make blanket statements about them?

Have you had a chance to watch the video "Kendo's Gruelling Challenge?"

[hakuda]

With all the debate about sword saints and how good the bujutsuka of old were, just remember one thing....HE WHO WINS WRITES THE HISTORY BOOKS! If you think about it who would listen to the loser. Everyone wants to learn to be like the winner. Think now, if you won 4 or 5 fights and maybe 2 were quite a brutal win, and the others were by luck, wouldn't you ride the gravy train to fame? I agree the best policy is to avoid such confrontations, but sometimes it can't be helped. No matter how good you may be or that some other people know how good you are, chances are the one guy you face will not know you from Adam. Just trust what you learned and try to survive. It's you fighting the fight, not Musashi, Masashige or Benkei.;)

[Shoki]

Thomas,

I can't resist this one........

Your message after your name is mis-quoted from an old Samuari namely Takahashi Deishu ( 1835-1903 ) who was appointed a lecturer in the Kobusho academy of military arts. Apparently he was a highly skilled swordsman. He painted a skull on a handscroll with the accompanying lines;

Had I not been born,
I need not die,
But since I've been born to die,
I will.

A lovely painting and a charming sentiment which captures the Samurai spririt.......

I don't wish to sound rude but your's did not quite make sense...

Regards
Rob Anderson