Authentic?

[Joachim]

Please dont kill me (or send me to the Bujinkan thread),

BUT....

...does anybody here know anything about the authenticy of the ryu taught in the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I mean anything proving that they were existant before the turn of the century. I mean any Informatoion from outside the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan.
I trained in the Bujinkan for six years before quitting and this always interested me.
The names of the ryu supposedly taught in the Bujinkan are
Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Kukishin (or Kukishinden) ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Gikan ryu, Kumogakure ryu and Koto ryu.

Thank you all in advance for your patience. (Exept, of course, those who flame me :-))

[CKohalyk]

I am by no means an authority, but Kukishin-ryu is real as far as I know. But in my VERY limited experience of it, it is much, much different than what Hatsumi does.

Keep looking, and keep us posted as to your findings.

CKohalyk

[John Lindsey]

Both Kukishin and Takagi Yoshin ryu are well known. It is possible that some of what we call Togakure-ryu comes from a Kukishin related scroll (Amatsu Tatara hibumi) called ryusen no maki.

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by Joachim

...does anybody here know anything about the authenticy of the ryu taught in the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I mean anything proving that they were existant before the turn of the century. I mean any Informatoion from outside the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan.
I trained in the Bujinkan for six years before quitting and this always interested me.
The names of the ryu supposedly taught in the Bujinkan are
Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Kukishin (or Kukishinden) ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Gikan ryu, Kumogakure ryu and Koto ryu.


Kukishin-ryû and Takagi Yôshin-ryû are well recorded ryûha and both can be verified before 1900. Also there are many branchs of both these ryûha. About 10 for Kukishin-ryû and about 5 for Takagi-ryû.

Here are some of the variants and branches and who heads them!

Well start with Kukishin-ryû ;)

Kukishin-ryû (mainline) - Kuki Munetaka (the incumbent Sôke)
Kukishinden Happô Bikenjutsu - Hatsumi Masaaki
Kukishinden Tenshin Hyôhô - Shihanke Takatsuka Eichoku Michitaka
Minaki-den Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu - Tanaka Fumon
Sôden Kukamishin-ryû - Tanaka Fumon
Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyôhô - Tanaka Fumon
Tenshin Hyôhô Kukamishin-ryû - Tanemura Shôtô
Hontai Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu - Tanemura Shôtô
Shinden Kitô-ryû Bôjutsu - Tanemura Shôtô
Hontai Kijin Chôsui-ryû Kukishinden Dakentaijutsu - Kobayashi Masao's son

There might be some more Kukishin-ryû branches, but I can't remember of the top of my head.
Amatsu Tatara is held by many of the above Headmasters in some form.

Here is 2 sites on Kukishin-ryû outside the Takamatsu-den:
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html
http://www4.justnet.ne.jp/~s.kenniti/Fkai/fkaiA.html

Onto Takagi-ryû

Takagi-ryû/Kakuno Takagi-ryû Jûjutsu - Kusuhara Takano
Takagi Yôshin-ryû/Hontai Takagi Yôshin-ryû Jûjutsu - Kaminaga Shigemi
Hontai Takagi Yôshin-ryû Jûtaijutsu - Hatsumi Masaaki
Hontai Yôshin Takagi-ryû Jûjutsu - Tanemura Shôtô
Hontai Yôshin-ryû Jûjutsu - Inouye Tsuyoshi Munetoshi

Inouye Sôke has done extensive research, even finding the founders grave.

Here is a website on Hontai Yôshin-ryû:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum/8136/

Shinden Fudô-ryû is well recorded too, but a lot of the info I have and have seen isn't fully translated, there are 3 branchs of this ryûha too!

Kotô-ryû has a lot of info too, but nowhere near the above ryûha.

Seems that Gyokko-ryû, Togakure-ryû, Kotô-ryû, Kumogakure-ryû and Gyokushin-ryû have to be verified before Takamatsu sensei's existence. So far all that is known, looks good, but we need more sources to confirm them.

Anyway, hope this helps!? :D

Enjoy the links!

[Joachim]

First and foremost: Thank you all for your replies.

But this still leaves me with some doubts, because your posts do not really answer my questions. :confused:
To say that one ryu taúght in the Bujinkan is real because its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful. :)
To list Tanemura as another Soke of one of these ryu, again, does not help very much (in light of his claims about Amatsu Tatara
and Hakuun ryu). All the other listed ryuha seem to have close ties to the Takamatsuden too.

But your posts helped me in clarifying the problem. What kind of proof can there be?

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by Joachim
First and foremost: Thank you all for your replies.

But this still leaves me with some doubts, because your posts do not really answer my questions. :confused:
To say that one ryu taúght in the Bujinkan is real because its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful. :)
To list Tanemura as another Soke of one of these ryu, again, does not help very much (in light of his claims about Amatsu Tatara
and Hakuun ryu). All the other listed ryuha seem to have close ties to the Takamatsuden too.

But your posts helped me in clarifying the problem. What kind of proof can there be?



Go read the 3 links I posted, some of the ryûha mentioned are not even connected to Takamatsu-den. Takagi-ryû for example, Hontai Yôshin-ryû. And some of the various Kuki arts, Minaki-den Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu, Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyôhô, Sôden Kukamishin-ryû.

There are some densho, makimono, menkyo and letters I believe in the possession of these Kakuno-den ryûha that are from Ishitani sensei directly. You can ask Tood S. or Daniel Lee about that as they know much more then me on the subject.

[Just some guy]

Hi there. Okay I know exactly how you feel about the Hatsumi claims. I was there myself and I want to share what little info I have on the subject. And don't worry, If this doesn't cause some flaming, nothing will. I can only give hard facts about the kukishin ryu but I will state a general fact that many people have over looked on this topic. First off, many people believe that Hatsumi is a Soke of 9 ninjutsu ryu. This is a mistake. Hatsumi has never claimed this in his life. Though he does claim to be a ninjutsu teacher only 3 of his schools are ninjutsu schools and of those 3 only one has been taught. I personaly feel that this is because none of the actual teachniques survived and the ryu exist only as consepts now, but this is purely my opinion. Before I go on let me add that I am NOT A Bujinkan student.
I can say that the Kukishin ryu is very much a true Koryu and no this is not because of Hatsumi being the Grand master. It actualy has a very close conection to Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. This comes from the two traditions shareing the same Soke for about 8 generations. Though I can not get the scrolls of the two schools and show you where they share these soke, I can tell you that Hasumi has been recognized as the soke of Kukishin Ryu by a Hontai Yoshin Ryu teacher in Germany I believe. I know I have read the statement, I just can't remember on whose web site. I can also say that the Liniage that Hatsumi Gives and the Liniage of Hontai Yoshin Ryu do match up perfectly at this time as they should.
This relation can also be seen in the schools teachniques. Particularly the Bo Kata. Both of the ryu developed the Bojutsu from the Kukishin Line. The method and consepts are almost identical.
I would also like to add that the Kukishin Ryu is NOT a ninjutsu school.
As for Takagiyoshin Ryu. I am afraid that I know very little. I would asume that is comes from the sharing of kukishin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu Grand Masters. but I can not be Certain. I can say that the Techniques of Taka Giyoshin and Hontai Yoshin Ryu are almost identical and I belive they even share the same organization (though I would have to look that uip to be sure).
As for most of the other ryu, I am afraid I know very little of their history. I have been told by a very reliable source who I won't mention here because I do not wish to misrepresent him that though Togakure Ryu has Kuden that strech back to Daisuke Togakure, the actural Ryu was not written down until Takamatsu himself did which does in a way make it Genbai Budo.
Well, that's all my information here. before I leave let me ay that this is all from my knowledge and all of the information and mistakes are of my own doing. I am not reprersenting anyone except myself. I hope this helps you out a bit. If you don't mind me asking, are you training in something else now?
Chris Baker.

[MarkF]

May I give you some advice, Chris? First, don't announce that you are going to start a flame war. You won't last long. Second, when you do research and want to post "fact" as opinion, you may want to get your research in order. This way, you don't come off as someone who knows exactly nothing, and can only represent himself because he didn't think it important enough to back up opinion with, at the very least, the web pages where you got your information.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Shinobi
>Go read the 3 links I posted, some of the ryûha mentioned >are not even connected to Takamatsu-den. Takagi-ryû for >example, Hontai Yôshin-ryû. And some of the various Kuki >arts, Minaki-den Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu, Nakatomi Shinden >Tenshin Hyôhô, Sôden Kukamishin-ryû.

OK. I mistated this. What I meant is this: There may be other authentic branches of the ryu outside the Bujinkan, but this does not say anything about the branches INSIDE the Bujinkan. AND it does not say anything about the authenticy of the seven other ryu in the Bujinkan. I was in fact looking for some outside (of the Bujinkan that is) evidence for the autheticy of the Takamatsu-den ryu-ha.
This was meant by my reply:

Originally posted by myself
>To say that one ryu taúght in the Bujinkan is real because >its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful. :)

[Joachim]

Sorry, got the quotes all wrong on the first try:

Originally posted by Shinobi
Go read the 3 links I posted, some of the ryûha mentioned are not even connected to Takamatsu-den. Takagi-ryû for example, Hontai Yôshin-ryû. And some of the various Kuki arts, Minaki-den Kukishin-ryû Bôjutsu, Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyôhô, Sôden Kukamishin-ryû.


OK. I mistated this. What I meant is this: There may be other authentic branches of the ryu outside the Bujinkan, but this does not say anything about the branches INSIDE the Bujinkan. AND it does not say anything about the authenticy of the seven other ryu in the Bujinkan. I was in fact looking for some outside (of the Bujinkan that is) evidence for the autheticy of the Takamatsu-den ryu-ha.
This was meant by my reply:

Originally posted by myself
To say that one ryu taúght in the Bujinkan is real because its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful. :)

[Mark Brecht]

Joachim,

Dr Hatsumi received beginning of the year the Shakai Bunka Korosho (something like the Japanese cultural distinguish award). It was given to him by the Emporer of Japan, for his contribution and work for the Martial Arts in Japanese Culture (Ninpo included, he was recognized as the only living grandmaster of Ninpo traditions). He was only the 92nd person in the last 50 years to receive this award.

:smokin: Brauchen Sie noch mehr Beweise???

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Mark Brecht
:smokin: Brauchen Sie noch mehr Beweise???

Ja. Because this isn't

[Tetsutaka]

Originally posted by Joachim
To list Tanemura as another Soke of one of these ryu, again, does not help very much (in light of his claims about Amatsu Tatara and Hakuun ryu).

The issue about Hakuun ryu has been explained by Michael Coleman in another thread in this forum.

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=907

As with most anything of this ilk, you can believe what you want.

As far as Amatsu Tatara is concerned, I believe that was passed on to him either by Sato Kinbei or Fumio Akimoto. Here is a quote from the Kuki family site:

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/impact_e.htm
The techniques of Takagiyoshin Ryu were passed on to Sato Kinbei in Tokyo from Takamatsu Chosui, and now Tanemura Shoto instructs them in Tajima, Matsubushi cho, Kita Katsu gun, Saitama prefecture.

It is my understanding that those who received grandmastership also received the Amatsu Tatara teachings. There is also an interesting connection made by the Kuki family to the Amatsu Tatara in their site:

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/current_e.htm
We have been reproducing the original text of Amatsutatara Hibun Kaidokuhen by Takamatsu Chosui; it was unfortunate that the undertaking was interrupted by the Hanshin earthquake for a while.

So it would seem that the Amatsu Tatara is intertwined with the Kuki family arts inasmuch as the Takagi Yoshin lineage.

Anyone care to comment or correct me on this?

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-29-2000 at 08:45 AM]

[Mark Brecht]

Hm, there seems to be evidence enough, that the Emporer of Japan, believes in the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi`s lineage...

If this is not good enough for YOU :cry: than i dunno what i can say...

In any case i am not aware of any other Japanese Martial Art, which attracts so many professional modern day warriors (Security, LE, Intelligence or Military), as the Bujinkan does. There was also a while ago an article in the Japan Times, which mentioned some of the organiztions who send their people here to train. CIA,FBI, SF, Scotland Yard, Mossad, etc...

Hey, how about coming into the chat room, i am there right now...

[Tetsutaka]

Originally posted by Mark Brecht
Hm, there seems to be evidence enough, that the Emporer of Japan, believes in the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi`s lineage...

I think Eric Weil pointed out [in a different thread] that there are several lineages that "parallel" each other that were passed on to different people. I'm not concerned about that. Whether or not the Emperor recognized someone as the ONLY one of any martial genre is irrelevent, at least for the purposes of this conversation.

John Lindsey also stated that it is possible that the Togakure ryu teachings may actually stem form the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi. I personally have no problem with that.

Everybody else can "itch and scratch" with those details. I have more "fundamental" work to do. ;)

[Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-29-2000 at 09:28 AM]

[Just some guy]

Mark,
First off my name really is Chris. Full name, Christopher John Baker.
Second, I'm afraid I'm just a bit lazy and sice I didn't remember the web sites off hand as I was writing the post I didn't bother including them. All the information I used in relation to Kukishin Ryu can be found on the Hontai Yoshin Ryu links at www@koryu.com and you can look them up there.The ideas of Kumogakure and yokkoshin ryu were, as I stated in my post completely my opinion and had nothing to do with any web site anywhere. This is also true of what I said about Takegiyoshin ryu, which was also clearly stated in my post. The information about Hatsumi teaching only 3 ninjutsu schools and the rest being simple Koryu Bujutsu is simple fact and can be found anywhere.
As for my anouncing a flame war, that was the farhtest thing I wanted to do. I just had seen a similer thread on the Bujinkan forum which turned into a flame war very fast and and I jut felt it was a matter of time before this did as well.
I hope I've cleared up any misunder standing that I my have caused by not being clear. I would like to leave by saying that I never said that Hatsumi was not telling the truth and I don't believe that either. I think he is a wonderful martial artist, I just don't choose to study under him. If I can help any more, let me know.
Chris Baker.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Mark Brecht
Hm, there seems to be evidence enough, that the Emporer of Japan, believes in the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi`s lineage...
If this is not good enough for YOU :cry: than i dunno what i can say...


There can be all kinds of motivations for the Tenno to do that. I'm not a politician and not the Emperor of Japan. I don't know why he did it. That's my POINT.
Some historical proof would be nice. I'm interested in the HISTORICAL aspect of the Bujinkan, not if the things the Bujinkan TEACHES are real or not. BTW: In my opinnion, they are. So why are you people so worked up about this?


Originally posted by Mark Brecht
In any case i am not aware of any other Japanese Martial Art, which attracts so many professional modern day warriors (Security, LE, Intelligence or Military), as the Bujinkan does. There was also a while ago an article in the Japan Times, which mentioned some of the organiztions who send their people here to train. CIA,FBI, SF, Scotland Yard, Mossad, etc...


Does that say anything about the lineage and its authenticy?

[Mark Brecht]

:smokin:[b] I think it does,

nearly 900 years in the making...

so you should expect an realistic, practical and effective Warrior tradition...[b]

[Richard A Tolson]

Mark,
900 YEARS!!!!! None of the Koryu go back that far. Neither does the Ryu system, nor the Shogunate (who, BTW, popularized the use of spies). Be careful with the hyperbolic statements. Too many people take them seriously.

[MarkF]

Mr. Baker,
Please excuse me for assuming it would be OK to use your first name in addressing you. Also, I know the site well, and have read most of what is said concerning the legitimacy of Hatsumi's ninjutsu.

I wasn't disagreeing, just passing on some advice which was given to me at one time, and that was all that was meant. I apologize for posting it in a curt manner. This is certainly not my area of expertise (judo is), and to this day, I am caught making statements without listing my backup for giving an opinion, or proof citing research.

I know the folks by way of the net at Koryu.com, so if you had said "according to John and Jane Do, of koryu.com" and gave the webpage or book in which you were refering, as you did here, I certainly wouldn't have said a word. Even if I didn't believe it or didn't believe the source, this not being my area, I certainly would not go on record saying anything about it. Again, it was only meant in the context of not having some source to back up your facts.

[Undmark, Ulf]

Let me add a few of my thoughts without actually trying to answer the question itself...

The huntingskills have been fostered by individuals and groups since the dawn of human history. If this fits the definition of ninjutsu *and* the definition of *Hatsumi's* ninjutsu, we can expect it to be as old as Adam and Eve.
However it would definitly *not* be Japanese in origin, but rather African...

If the definition is: Japanese, but not related to the first actual use of the term, but rather to the use of stealthskills, it would be expected logically (but not tracable) to be as old as the first Japanese communities.

If it is defined as organized in ryuha, it can't be older than the ryuha system itself, as Richard mentioned, can it?

If we want to trace it to the first usage of the term "ninjutsu", I really do not know how old that would make the art. Perhaps 16'th or 17'th century?

If we want to PROVE a specific tradition to be as old as 400 years, it must have left *significant* traces from that period. Then it would be up to researchers to validate those traces, with whatever result / outcome.

It's all pretty much up to definitions and existing evidence, as viewed by researchers and historians. Not that many ryuha can prove to be as old as they claim. Some can, but I doubt that goes for Hatsumi's supposed 900 years old traditions. But if they can't be proven, they can't be disproven either? Important to some, unimportant to others.
Interesting in any case.

The founders secret, isn't it?

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Joachim]

Ok. Since this discussion has taken a slightly different route than I imagined, I'd like to post some questions about ninjutsu and its history, that bugged me during my training in the Bujinkan (six years).

1. Why is ninjutsu (the art of stealth, assasination and spying) organized into ryuha at all? Wouldn't such visible and official organizations be shut down by the authorities, at least in the time of the Tokugawa police-state?
BTW: I know, some in the Bujinkan might say that Hatsumi said that ninjutsu isn't the art of spying or assassination, but an art to preserve peace and freedom. The methods (stealth, poison, weapons, which double as entrance tools, etc.) are the same, aren't they?

2. Why are there sword techniques in the Togakure ryu? Did the Togakure ryu only train Ninja from Samurai descent? Wouldn't it be preferable for peasants (ninja) to train in weapons which are either not as visible or weapons for the possession of which you wouldn't get executed on the spot?


And a question on a almost completely unrelated point:

3. Is Hatsumi soke of a) KukishinDEN ryu Happo Hikenjutsu (stated in almost all of his books), b) Kukishin ryu (Stickfighting Book by Hatsumi), c)Kukishin ryu Taijutsu (stated on the Bujinkan dan certificates) or d) all of them?

[Undmark, Ulf]

Most traditional Japanese arts were organized in ryuha and as these (ninjutsu)were quite common principles in warfare they were organized for the same reason and in the same way as other similar arts. The only reason to shut such a ryuha (that would contain ninjutsu) down, would be that there were not much use for that knowledge during the peace. During war, most warriors would use these principles at some instances, orginating from systemized traditions or from experience or plain common sense.

During the first 500 years of samurai history, any peasant could become a samurai if he wished. Also, a ryuha could decide if, or if not, to teach non-warriors. Katori shinto ryu has always been open to everybody, including peasants and they taught ninjutsu.

Another point is that, most likely, the majority of the warriors were not taught martial arts in organized traditions, but from experience and from friends. Ryuha training, I guess, was a possibility for the lucky few.
Probably, not many farmers had such an opportunity at all. And probably, ninjutsu would not have been a first choise.

My guess is that most of those skilled in stealth, earned their skill from experience...not organized training.

As far as weapons training in Bujinkan or other aspects of their organization...I'm not qualified at all to answer.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

I just wanted to make a brief observation on this thread, since nobody moderates the koryu forum currently:

Someone asked for help with basically historical research in regards to the authenticity of the ryu-ha taught in the Bujinkan.

So far, no one has come forth with any documentation or reasonable resources or references. Just "Hatsumi said so", "it is in all of Hatsumi's books", "the Emperor gave him an award" and a few web sites that also have unsubstantiated information. (I still don't know what qualifies the Emperor to judge koryu exponents, but it is a cool credential to receive anyway I guess)

I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm not implying anything for or against the arts taught in the Bujinkan or Hatsumi Sensei.

I'm simply pointing out that this whole thread has turned into an unorganized series of opinions and heresay, that will probably turn into a flame war soon if left on it's present course.

Unless someone on the Koryu forum is willing to assist with any tangible research, I'd personally suggest taking discussions of this nature back to the Ninpo forum.

For example, maybe someone could start with the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten? I'm sure some, if not most of the ryu-ha are listed in there. I know Togakure ryu is. I also have heard that the author was friendly with Takamatsu Sensei, and put an interesting bit in the jiten about the origin of modern day Ninjutsu! I don't have access to my copy right now, nor the time to translate it or I'd volunteer to help myself.

Any takers?

I hope no one minds me offering an outside point of view, but this thread in it's current state really does not belong here.

Regards,

[jmharris]

I have my raincoat on and ready for all the rotten fruits and vegetables that are about to be thrown. Let me add, as expected on this board!!!

The question of the Bujinkan authenticity was ask by the late Donn Dager, from what I have been told (albeit 3rd party) he was not pleased with the research he found. I will leave it as that.

J. Harris

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by jmharris
from what I have been told (albeit 3rd party)


More grapevine crap :smash:

If you don't have the facts straight, don't reply. Arigatô! :smilejapa

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Shinobi
Originally posted by jmharris
from what I have been told (albeit 3rd party)

More grapevine crap :smash:
If you don't have the facts straight, don't reply. Arigatô! :smilejapa

I think, he was reffering to this article at koryubooks:
http://koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html


A friend told me about the above article a few days ago. I found it to be very enlightening. Whether you believe the statements or not is (of course) your choice.

[Just some guy]

Mark,
Please don't "Mr Baker" me, Chris will be just fine. I just thought that you believed I wasn't using my real name because you put "Chris" in Quote marks. I may not be the greatest person in the world but I will stand and be counted when I have something to say.

EVERYONE ELSE
On a completely differant note, I have to agree with some of the other coments said. This tread has wondered way off course. The only thing being asked was the Historical background of the Ryu of Hatsumi's Bujinkan. And I might add that Joachem was wanting information from OUTSIDE of the whole ninjutsu craze. If you want to support Hatsumi, do so with hard evidnce, such as the Begei Ryuha Daijitan or with historical fact.
We could all learn a lot here. Let's try and grow.
Chris BAker.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Just some guy
If you want to support Hatsumi, do so with hard evidnce, such as the Begei Ryuha Daijitan or with historical fact.
We could all learn a lot here. Let's try and grow.
Chris BAker.

Hi Chris,

Actually, I would not use the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten to gain any hard evidence or use it as fact. It is a dictionary. And most historians wouldn't use it as a primary source. Maybe for a secondary source. It also has many mistakes. And just to let everyone know, at least in the 78 edition, every ryuha that Hatsumi Sensei has, lists him as soke of each of his schools.

I don't think it is Hatsumi Sensei fault that people don't believe him. It was Takamatsu Sensei who gave the ryuha to Hatsumi Sensei. So, basically he has faith in what his teacher (Takamatsu Sensei) told/gave him.

And really, the problem is finding Toda Shinryuken Sensei's records. But, I have heard that they might have found something on him.

The ryuha (with the exception of Gikan Ryu) that he received from Ishitani (Ishiya) Sensei can be verified. And he was asked by Kuki Takaharu to teach Kukishin Ryu at his organization (Shobukyoku) back in 1919. I don't think Kuki Takaharu would have let him taught if he didn't have his "paper work" in order.

As for Hatsumi Sensei's Kuki related ryuha, the school's official name is Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu.

[Mark Brecht]

Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
Mark,
900 YEARS!!!!! None of the Koryu go back that far. Neither does the Ryu system, nor the Shogunate (who, BTW, popularized the use of spies). Be careful with the hyperbolic statements. Too many people take them seriously.

Mr. Tolson,

The teachings and methods of various traditions started and developed far before they were considered a ryuha (formalized and named...)...

Hm, taking things serious is a good point. Looking at your claims regarding "Arashi ryu", people might confuse it with parts of the movie Bloodsport (where the kid learns the secret family traditions from his Japanese teacher...). What was the name of van Damme`s Sensei in there again? T.. T.. T... Gee, i forgot. Can you help me out here???

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by Mark Brecht
The teachings and methods of various traditions started and developed far before they were considered a ryuha (formalized and named...)...
[/B]

Very true, people rant and rave that Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô-ryû is thee oldest proveable ryûha. But most forget about where and what ryûha influenced it. So this theory of ryûha only being from 1500ish onward is hogwash! Katori Shintô-ryû being founded in 1447 and its influnces earlier then that, one would think............ but I guess not. Kukishin-ryû is very well documented and its from the 1300's so................


Looking at your claims regarding "Arashi ryu"


Doah :smokin:

[Undmark, Ulf]

I believe it is said that Katori shinto ryu is the oldest *proven* ryuha, not the ryuha that *claims* to be the oldest.

There are also legends about Okuyama Nen Ami Jion, said to have founded the Nen ryu around 1368 (according to records from the Higuchi family) and the Chujo family is said to have taught martial arts in Kamakura since the 13'th century. According to legend, the Chujo ryu is supposed to have been formalized or revitalized shortly after Nen ryu.

I guess there just doesn't exist much to prove such legends.
Also the ryuha system were barely developed, wich ofcourse doesn't mean that organized training wasn't carried out.

Claims are not the same as proof. I believe that the Kashima shinto ryu is well in their 64'th or 65'th soke...counting from way back to guardians of the Kashima jingu (perhaps back to the 7'th century). But still, this ryuha is not really considered to be older than from the early 16'th century. I guess the Japanese Emperor was considered a God (or being decendant from the Gods) until quite recently...but I doubt he could prove those claims... and I don't think as many still believe he is today.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Richard A Tolson]

Mark,
No logic to back up your statement, so once again you go on the attack. Pathetic!!!
BTW, I NEVER claimed to have learned a "secret" art, or to have studied with a "secret" instructor. Again, please get your facts straight.
Another thing, go back and read your last 20 posts (besides the ones where you are trying to sell something). Notice a pattern? Most are attacks on others.
Now go back and read my last 20 points. Golly gee whiz, most deal with ideas and are informational. And I am not even a moderator here!

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by Undmark, Ulf
I believe it is said that Katori shinto ryu is the oldest *proven* ryuha, not the ryuha that *claims* to be the oldest.


Thats what I meant, its "proven" to be the oldest! :toast:

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Shinobi
Originally posted by Undmark, Ulf
I believe it is said that Katori shinto ryu is the oldest *proven* ryuha, not the ryuha that *claims* to be the oldest.


Thats what I meant, its "proven" to be the oldest!

Hi Eric,

I think you were close enough. "...Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô-ryû is thee oldest proveable ryûha..."

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by George Kohler
I think you were close enough. "...Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô-ryû is thee oldest proveable ryûha..." [/B]

Arigatô George-san :smilejapa

[Undmark, Ulf]

Eric and George,

Yes, that is true and I think there actually are some legends about Iizasa's teacher as well (including a name of an individual). But I do not know much about that, they are probably mostly legends, and I'm not sure if the extensive records within Shinto ryu mentions any other ryuha around that time. But that, ofcourse, is still being stuck with the idea that training is only organized if it fits the ryuha pattern, which is not true. I believe that one of the first martial arts institutions were formed around the 9'th century. Also, archery has, to some extent, been formalized earlier than the 14'th century.

So, basically, it's a matter of definitions when speaking of ryuha and organized martial training. And the oldest *proven* doesn't mean *the* oldest, but everything else would on the other hand be not much more than speculations I guess.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Edited by Undmark, Ulf on 09-01-2000 at 02:39 AM]

[Undmark, Ulf]

Oh, I forgot...many speculate that the influences of those earliest ryuha come (or atleast where inspiration for them) from what has been called Kashima no tachi and Katori no ken...Not really ryuha I guess, and maybe not that martial in their nature, but the legend of Kashima no tachi goes back to the 7'th century at least. This may have inspired the idea of formalizing knowledge and experience that may have come from the efforts of individuals (or possibly earlier ryuha / organized training of some sort...).

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Don Roley]

In regards to the original question,
The versions of Takagi and Kukishin ryus as taught inside the Bujinkan today share a same lineage up to a person named ishitani who taught Takamatsu and another person by the name of Minaki. Today there are two lineages called the Takamatsu-den and the Minaki- den from the respective sources. Both show proof back to the same teacher, and from Ishitani the traditions are well known and documented well before this century.
In addition, Takamatsu was well known and respected by the Kuki family and is commonly credited with the preservation of many aspects of the art. He could have gained a lot more fame and prestige off of these facts alone, but seemed to avoid a lot of fame when he could.
As for the Togakure ryu, there is a lot of circumstancial evidence, but very little in the way of solid proof. For example, according to the tradtion in the Togakure ryu, the school was founded by Nishina Daisuke of Togakure village who had to flee to Iga after his lord (Kiso Yoshinaka) was defeated. Independant researcher Koyama Ryutaro found references to Nishina in a document called the Genpeiseisuiki.
Now, it may be that Takamatsu found this information out himself on his own research in a obscure book and then never made mention of it to anyone, letting it be found by someone much later, but it seems a little strange to sugest that. There are also a lot of other similar, circumstancial facts that basically fit the catagory of things that Takamatsu really should not have known, but did, unless he was telling the truth about his experiences. I would reccomend Koyama's books (in Japanese) "Kore Wa Ninjutsu Da" and "Shinsetsu, Nihon Ninja Restuden" for a more detailed explination, but the Ninshina quote is also mentioned in the prefaces to Hatsumi's Hanbojutsu book.
The problem is that Takamatsu does not seemed to have held on to many documents like this. Between the time he was said to have been taught, and the time he started teaching the current head, there was almost 50 years, two world wars, several changes of location and the repeated fire bombing of his native city of Kobe. The only photograph I am aware of him from before the war comes not from his records, but from the Iwai family collection. If you want definate proof, you have to rely on the pysical evidence from sources like the Kuki and Iwai families to back up what he says about being part of the Takagi and Kuki tradtions. And a lot of his claims are still being looked into by some people, but not very frantically since a lot of the Japanese just do not seem to care.
I once thought about writing a long article or maybe even a book about the subject of ninjutsu and the Togakure ryu in more detail, but decided it really wasn't all that important myself.
Hope I was of help

Don Roley

[Joachim]

Hi everybody!

I would like to thank all the people who have contributed to this thread so far, whether their replies were directly to my questions or not. All of it was very enlightening.
This thread has, since the original question, disintegrated into three sepperate discussions about Dr. Hatsumi's schools, ninjutsu's authenticy and the ryuha system in general. Some of my questions didn't belong in this forum either.

I'm not the forum moderator, but don't you think, we should close this thread down and open new ones in the respective areas?

Just a thought.

[Undmark, Ulf]

Don, regarding the name, I have a question that is better placed in the research forum. Please visit there.

Regards,
Ulf Undmark

[Mark Brecht]

Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
Mark,
No logic to back up your statement, so once again you go on the attack. Pathetic!!!

Hm, others saw the logic, you didn`t. Guess that`s YOUR problem than...

BTW, I NEVER claimed to have learned a "secret" art, or to have studied with a "secret" instructor. Again, please get your facts straight.

Secret, as in nobody has ever heard of it...

Another thing, go back and read your last 20 posts (besides the ones where you are trying to sell something). Notice a pattern? Most are attacks on others.

Yeah, why should i attack myself, that wouldn`t be logic, would it???

Hm, first you delete and slander me, and now you pick on the biz. I guess, you did not take it to well that i ignored you inquiry. You should have read the notice, in regards to authentic or legitimate arts...


Now go back and read my last 20 points. Golly gee whiz, most deal with ideas and are informational. And I am not even a moderator here!

The ones which where taken out for spamming? Or the ones attacking Don`s book?

Hm, i guess you come here, as it is too boring "somewhere" else...

BTW, i am still looking to see a post somewhere were you praised ebudo???

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by Jeff Mueller
Everyone keeps saying that Hatsumi Sensei recieved KukishinDEN Ryu HappoHikenjutsu from Takamatsu. Once more, I would like to point out that the Menkyo Hatsumi Sensei has on his wall, (available for all to see on the 1993 Daikomyosai video opening montage) reads as follows:

Hatsumi Masaaki
Kaiden Souke Dan Menkyo-su.
Shouwa Sanjuunana(shichi)nen Sangatsu Juuninichi
Kukishin-ryuu Bujutsu Souke
Koudou Senyoukai Shoubuyoku
Sousai Juusan-i Shishaku Kuki Takaharu
Shihan Takamatsu Toshitsugu

Now, why does Sensei call it Kukishinden Ryu HappoHikenjutsu? I am not sure, but please stop making statements about him only having some silly Hatsumi Ha, or KukishinDEN amalgamation Ryu... His Menkyo was signed by Kuki Takaharu and it is for Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu.


The Bugei Ryûha Daijiten ('78 edition) refers to it as Kukishinden Happô Bikenjutsu, Takatsuka's branch is called Kukishinden Tenshin Hyôhô, and Tanaka Fumon's Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyôhô. When the "DEN" is added, it appears in Kuki related arts there is not "ryû" after the name. Den and Ryû in this sense mean almost the same thing, so Kukishinden Happô Bikenjutsu is the proper way to refer to this tradition of Kukishin-ryû. You can also call it Kukishin-ryû Happô Bikenjutsu, but Kukishinden-ryû is reduntant, reduntant, reduntant........ :D

But I have heard Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura-san even, refer to it as both. I prefer Kukishinden or Kukishin-ryû. :smokin:

[siralec]

Both Kukishin and Takagi Yoshin ryu are well known. It is possible that some of what we call Togakure-ryu comes from a Kukishin related scroll (Amatsu Tatara hibumi) called ryusen no maki.

Hello

This is very interesting indeed.

I always thought Togakure Ryu came from Toda.

If it came from this Kukishin scroll, would that mean it came from Ishitani?

Do you have any more information on this?

by the way I have recently found an excellent thread on the whole topic here on Budoseek: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4672

IMO we need to focus on the question of whether Togakure Ryu is koryu (from before 1868) and NOT get sidetracked into the other Bujinkan schools or the Bujinkan as a whole.

Regards
Alec Courtney

[paradoxbox]

sorry to bump an oldish thread.

I believe what Mr. Lindsey was talking about some information Takamatsu sensei transfered from ryusen no maki into the togakure ryu teachings he received. From my limited understanding of that situation, the Togakure ryu Takamatsu sensei received was not quite the same as we practice it today; it was what you might say incomplete, some of the teachings had been lost. According to Tanemura soke, it's probable that Takamatsu researched teachings he knew to be (or felt to be) part of the ancient and full Togakure ryu, and as soke, re-added them to the ryu.

I cannot verify any of this information personally but it is in the magazine Amatsu Tatara published by Genbukan, but I have no reason to doubt its authenticity.