Obi position

[stevemcgee99]

Where along your waist/hips do you tie your obi? Above the hip bone, on the bone, under the bone/above the hip joint,etc.? Is it above your butt or across it? Do you have a gut or are you a skinny/popeye-type?

I have seen it different ways, and now have new instructors and am hearing new things, so I'm trying to sort it out. TIA.

[Douglas Wylie]

The top edge of the belt and hakama go at the bottom edge of the navel.

I can remember having to take off my uniform ON THE FLOOR in the dojo, so the sensei could show me the proper way to wear it.

Good thing I was wearing shorts underneath because I dont think he would have stopped if I had been au-natural. I think it was cold that day too, I would have made a poor showing. :D

[Charles Mahan]

Seems I usually place my obi so that the bottom edge of the obi rests on the top portion of the pelvic bone in the front of the hip. When the obi is tightened the bone seems to provide a little support for the weight of the sword.

[David T Anderson]

I wear my Iai obi on my hips, more or less level with the waistband of my hakama. I have a small [thankfully] amount of gut-overhang, so it fits there quite neatly and doesn't restrict my breathing as it would if I wore it higher. I find the most convenient place for my katana is right at hip level, so it all comes together quite nicely.

[pgsmith]

Hi Steve,
You should wear it exactly as your instructor tells you to wear it. There are quite a few different ways to tie your obi and hakama. The way it's tied will determine how it sits on your hips. If you aren't exactly sure how, ask one of the senior students in the class to show you before the class actually starts. They'll be happy to help you out, and will think better of you for asking rather than just doing it how you think it should be.

Good luck!

[Don Cunningham]

Personally, I like the ronin knot worn in the middle of the back and slightly toward the right hip. The most common is the clamshell knot, tied in front and turned to sit on the right hip. There are ways of tying the obi with the knot to the right side or front right side, but I think this is mainly for the real soft style man's obi, which wouldn't be too practical for iaido.

[Don Cunningham]

Actually, I've never seen it illustrated, but the "bad-boy" good guys in all jidai-geki wear their obi tied this way. It's sort of a double or triple twist rather than a real knot. I just keep seeing it and figured out how to tie it. I like it because it is (1) very simple and fast to tie and (2) there's no bulge created by a thick knot. It lays much flatter, if you understand what I mean. I'll try to find some photos, but I am not sure where there may be any since I've only seen it on television and in the movies.

[Don Cunningham]

http://www.tozando.com/images/iaido/howtotie_2.gif
Here's some photos of tying a kaku obi in a clamshell style knot.
This link is to a site with an unusual method of tying a kaku obi with the knot in front. (http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Obi1.html)

Here are some good articles about obi, but again, these show variations on the standard clamshell style knot for men.

Knotty Business (http://metropolis.japantoday.com/HealthandBeautyarchive349/326/healthandbeautyinc.htm)

The Kimono and Obi (http://www.ifccsa.org/kimobi.html)

I couldn't locate any photos of the ronin knot. Like I posted before, I just copied it from jidai-geki actors. When I was in Japan, they laughed and said this was the "ronin" style knot for tying kaku obi, usually around a kimono. If you ever watch Sword of Doom, the main character almost always wore this style of knot.

[renfield_kuroda]

Not entirely sure what the "ronin" knot is, but traditionally samurai who aren't wearing hakama would tie "katabasami":
http://otokono-kimono.info/kata1.html (Japanese, green button at bottom right goes to next page).
Note I don't know why, but this generally NOT used when wearing hakama. Anyway Gojyaku-san (http://www.gojyaku.com), one of the most active modern proponents of traditional wear, told me about katabasami because it's very easy and flat but simply does not come loose...I'll have to ask him why it's not used with hakama.

Also, in general the obi is angled, lower in front (below the gut if you have one) and higher in back (across the small of the back, over the butt.)

Standard knot for when wearing hakama is "ichi-monji":
http://otokono-kimono.info/obi-h1.html (Japanese. Note in this explanation the author intentionally ties the obi loosely in order to better illustrate the knot.) Generally the top of the hakama is just on or slightly below the top of the obi.

Then again we're always told "if it keeps the sword in place, who care how you tie it?"

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[hyaku]

The nice thing about the katabasami is that you can slip the hands inside the back of the hakama and give it another pull with having to undress again.

When wearing a pair of fairly heavy shinken one needs to make an adjustment after you have been wearing it for lengthy periods.

Hyakutake Colin

[renfield_kuroda]

Hyaku, I agree, but am I completely delusional in thinking katamasami and hakama don't go together? Can't find any reference anywhere...I really need to ask Gojyaku-san.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[A.J. Bryant]

I doubt this is the "ronin knot" but I was taught to simply wrap the obi around until there are about 12-18 inches or so left. Then, you tuck it under and around (multiple times) forming a wrap--like a roll. This is then positioned at the back. It's easy, tight and never seems to come loose... It also makes a good hiding place for kozuka or other such small weapons of last defense...

FWIW

Regards,

[Jeff Hamacher]

sorry, folks, for only skimming the contents of this thread, but i'll fire back and see if it helps anyone out.

the teacher should be the final arbiter of what the student does, including how they wear their training attire. advice from the teacher or seniors should be sought before making any final decisions. having said that, the members of my jo group all have their own little tricks to tying obi and hakama, all of which appear to meet with my teacher's approval.

if you want to follow kimono rules, the lower half of the obi's width should sit squarely on the hipbones. too high and it will restrict breathing, too low and it will restrict leg movement, not to mention cause the obi/hakama assembly to eventually ride up and come loose, necessitating a re-tie. you just have to keep trying different variations on position, tension, and so forth until you find an approach that works. i have yet to develop a sufficient belly to wear kimono without wrapping a folded towel over my lower abdomen, but i don't need it for jo (i reckon my keikogi is thick enough).

katabasami and ronin-musubi are essentially the same knot. neither this nor the kai-no-kuchi ("clamshell") are "proper" knots for formal hakama, but the ronin-musubi is the clearly superior choice for martial arts training: it doesn't come loose easily, lies flat, and as Hyaku points out, it can be adjusted quickly and easily without taking off the hakama to re-tie the whole mess. incidentally, the school of tea ceremony in which i train seems to encourage the exclusive use of ronin-musubi for men, regardless of whether a hakama is worn or not. the knot you'd want to use with formal hakama (assuming that it was long enough in the back) is called ichimonji; it produces a kind of bustle and makes the whole arrangement look a bit like that of a kyogen actor's costume.

i'm out of time, but i'll look forward to reading your responses.

[stevemcgee99]

Lots of great responses. I guess this is something everyone has experience with.

The ichimonji looks closest to what I was taught. My assumption is that the original knot was forgotten, and what I learned was an attempt to tie it. It was close, but "no cigar".

So, I'll ask about which knot for the different classes.

My main question was regarding where on the hips. I understand bodies are different, and the advice to just keep doing it until it works is sound to me. I had been wearing it high, above my hip bones/acreoss my navel.

Two instructors (both new ones) said my iaito was too high. I tried wrapping it around my bones, so the iaito would ride below the top of the hip bone and above the hip joint. It "rode up", presumeably because i have no gut.

I've seen others in class tie it so it wraps around the butt, pretty low looking. I think if I tied my hakama so that the obi was totally under the himo that might work for me, otherwise I'd nee to hem my hakama.

So, I'll ask each sensei about where exactly to put the wraps.

It's so nice to be studying with sensei who are aware of these details and expect me to follow them correctly. Unfortunately, my iaido classes are not as frequent as I would like. At least there's no rush, neh?

[Don Cunningham]

http://otokono-kimono.info/photo/12040019.jpg
This is the knot. Congratulations and hat's off to Renfield for finding this page.

Actually, I think I've been tying it wrong. I copied it from my observations of jidai-geki. It seems to me that they leave the flat (not folded) end of the obi pointing down to their left from behind. It sort of looks just like this one but reversed?

[hyaku]

The site Renfield found is very nice but its a Japanese man you are looking at.

One has to bear in mind that we are wearing the apparel of another nationality. Body length is different.

Average Japanese Zako (length of the body in a sitting position) is much longer. Its the legs that are shorter. That's why its easier to position everything and does make a difference. And although power is generated from the hips and below theirs dont stick out so much.

By the way ladies do not position the same as they have "hips'

Also it really depends on what you are doing when you wear Hakama. Modern styles wear a it with the hem cutting the ankle bone. This is far to long to do some of the older stuff and you will step on the hem for sure. You may look like you are wearing your younger brothers hakama but thats how it should be.

The pictures show a man dressing for Kimono Kitsuke and not for a Kobudo Embu. I do not do the same preparation in tying if I am not going to use wear and use a sword. Modern day hakama himo basicaly are insufficient. You may wear a kaku obi but some of the weight rests on these ties and its a good idea to reinforce them. The shopkeepers Ichimonji tie on the Hakama wont last long with some real metal thrust under the Obi

Practicality and not pretty is the key. Thats why there the tops are shorter for wearing with Joba Hakama and nor the skirtlike one shown on other pages

If your gut doesnt stick out it will after years of being told "Hara wo fukuramu zo" At least that my excuse and I certainly won't get fat on the food here thats for sure.

Hope this helps

Hyakutake Colin

[Jeff Hamacher]

Steve,

i'll repeat what i said above with a little more detail. imagine a line running right down the middle of the obi's width. as you wrap the obi around yourself, this center line should not fall below your hipbones (them two pointy parts of the pelvic bone). some seem to wear it lower, but i've had little success with that. when tied, the obi should not be perfectly horizontal, but rather incline slightly downwards from back to front. some people set the hem of the hakama perfectly level, but i set mine on a similar incline to the obi. in contrast to typical kimono wearing, i completely cover my obi with the front of my hakama; in fact, the front laces ride a good centimetre above the upper edge of the obi. i would be surprised if your teachers told you to use ichimonji, but they're the bosses.

Don,

some people wrap their obi clockwise and some counter-clockwise. i don't know if there's a difference in "meaning". the one variation on ronin that i've seen differs from your photo in a small way: the "flat" end (called tare in Japanese) doesn't go under the first outer wrap, it goes right underneath everything next to the kimono/keikogi. i use "your" method these days and find it more stable.

Hyaku,

i find kakuobi stiffer and less stretchy than many types of "iai obi", so i have the impression that a kakuobi would carry the weight of a sword more readily. i don't train in iai, but is my impression incorrect? i've also seen quite a few variations on hem length, with the majority preferring a slightly longer hem (as do i). again, i suppose this depends upon the art and the teacher's preferences. one last question: i wasn't aware of a fixed difference in length for similar sizes of umanori-bakama ("the legs") and andon-bakama ("the skirt"). could you explain?

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by Don Cunningham
http://otokono-kimono.info/photo/12040019.jpg
This is the knot. Congratulations and hat's off to Renfield for finding this page.

Actually, I think I've been tying it wrong. I copied it from my observations of jidai-geki. It seems to me that they leave the flat (not folded) end of the obi pointing down to their left from behind. It sort of looks just like this one but reversed?

FYI This is the site I always refer to, but as Hyaku noted this is a generic "how-to" site for traditional Japanese wear and therefore has no specifics regarding martial arts.

Which way the ends point simply depends on which direction you tie the obi -- do you start on the right hip with the tare pointing left and wrap clockwise, or do you start on the left hip with the tare pointing right and wrap counter-clockwise? I and as far I've noticed everyone I do iai with wraps clockwise, ties in the front, and then moves the knot clockwise to the back (don't shift the knot the opposite direction to the wrap or the obi will loosen up!)

Regards,
renfield kuroda

P.S. Yesterday at cutting practice, Gojyaku-san (http://www.gojyaku.com) gave me a really cool dress hakama! I guess he's encouraging me to wear my kimono more often. I was so surprised I forgot to ask him why katabasami isn't used w/hakama...

[renfield_kuroda]

I got a response from Gojyaku-san, who basically said:
katabasami, being flat, doesn't look good w/hakama. The ichimonji knot isn't flat and therefore looks cooler with hakama.

Regards,

renfield kuroda

[Don Cunningham]

"Average Japanese Zako (length of the body in a sitting position) is much longer. Its the legs that are shorter."
As a 6-foot Westerner who has tried often to buy Western-style clothing in Japanese department stores, there are a lot of differences in body shapes. If the sleeves fit, the waist was off and vice-versa. Japanese men seem to have longer torsos and shorter limbs in proportions.

By the way, I don't claim to be an expert in Japanese traditional wear. I like the flatter ronin knot because it is easy to tie and lies flat underneath a hakama. I know the Japanese style is to have the hakama protrude from the back, but I don't feel comfortable that way.

Finally, the ronin knot doesn't require as much obi end to tie. As obi seem to have shrunk considerably as I get older, this is also becoming a serious consideration. :D

[Richard Elias]

My two bits.

The "ronin" knot I've also seen refered to as "han musubi"- half knot, or "fujiyama musubi" for it's visual similarity to the mountain.

In regards to the obi riding up. When you put the obi on try standing with you feet together (completely together with the insides of the feet touching) and standing straight up. Do the same when putting on the hakama, and (if possible) don't change your position until you've put on both. When you're done and you stand "normal" your hips open-up a bit and help things stay in place. It may also tighten up a little bit more on your sword so adjust accordingly.

We always leave about a 1/4-1/2" lip of the obi sticking up above the hakama. It makes it easier to put in and remove the sword(s) and other toys.

[renfield_kuroda]

Here's another site for tying katabasami:
http://www.kimono-taizen.com/wear/w_kaku2.htm

That site has many good photos on proper wear:
http://www.kimono-taizen.com/wear.htm
Note the angle of the obi and the manly gut; gotta a love a culture that finds such protrusion attractive and desirable!

Regards,

renfield kuroda

[Jeff Hamacher]

further to Renfield's tip, the webmaster of the site has published a paperback that contains the majority of the basic information from his on-line home about buying, wearing, storing, and taking care of men's kimono. you'll find an advertisement for it at the site, and at a mere 780 yen, you can't beat it for a Japanese-language print source on the subject.

[ulvulv]

Just a small obi-conversation i heard years ago, between a seventh dan an a shodan in iaido: Seventh dan: "Do you put your obi three times around your waist?" "Yes, I do." "Lucky you".