Got Ki?

In my 25 years of study in Karate I have heard and read much about Ki (like we all have) but never once has any teacher, seminar, book, video, or any other source "really" explained or teach any technique on how to find it, let alone use it.

My theory is that this is one of those things that is handed down and most teacher talk about it's importance but rarely ever really know what it is.

Ever since I began studying Chen Style taiji I have been exposed to many teachers, explanations, a plethora of theories, dozens of exercises ohow to first find out what Ki is, how to recognize it, then how to generate it, then how to utilize at will. The CHinese interanl arts (and some external) deal with the subject of Ki very matter of factly with no mumbo-jumbo, you're not ready to learn that, no mistery. I still practice and teach Karate and hI am beginning to fill the vid inmy practic and find out how Ki can fit into karate kata. But I would have never learned of it's meaning and understanding unless I had gone outside the karate world.

This knowledge has changed my karate from being a completely external art, to one that is flourishing internally. If you feel that your karate is becoming like an "old worn shoe" I would recomend to study and research Ki via an internal art.

I am wondering if any of you have had any similar experiences, and/or your thougths.

Thanks.

[Akshel]

So is there anyway you can elaborate or perhaps describe what chi/ki is in a tangible logic? Thank you.

That is a tought thing to answer in a forum like this without a huge multi page essay. But let me condense it as best as I can:

Martial Ki (or Qi in Chinese) is based on utilizing one's internal force. This is already a common explanation in hundreds of volumes which I have read over the years in many karate related publications, magazines, etc... but nowhere has it ever to my knowledge been explained how to achieve this. It is a concept often quoted and refered to with little to no scientific and practical guidelines. But I am going to try......

1)
Looking at internal Chinese systems and Aikido which is the one of the most widely know (non Chinese) arts to display the usage of Ki, one can find a common thread, and this is the first thing one must achieve in order to even begin to attempt to find Ki- RELAXATION!

Without it one is stuck in the external power realm, and will utilize muscle tissue and muscular tension to exert outer force. This being the case then only those of superior physical strenght will most likely win a fight (given the 2 opponents have equal martial skills) this is not the vision of what superior martial skill is about, otherwise only the young and powerfull will prevail. The old masters who lose external physical strengh offset this loss by the lifelong buildup of the skill to 1) recognize KI, 2) know how to gather it, 3) know how to utilize at will through the body and focus it to a weapon (i.e fist, foot, hand, shoulder etc...).

Being external is not a bad thing necessarily and it is a natural progression like in life you are young and (dumb) and then you grow older and you are supposed to mature. Same thing with external power, then you are supposed to migrate to using internal power as you mature and you get older. But this does not happen automatically, and some Senseis have said that if you practice your kata 100,000 (for example) you will magically have the Tinker-karate-bell drop magic Ki dust on you and you will graduate to that level. Funny as this may sound, I have heard stories similar to this (except without the tinker bell park), but just as ridiculous.

If practice of external forms would do it, we would all have Ki after we hit the magic number right? Aint't gonna happen.

In order to find Ki, one needs to know know to properly relax the body so that it is in the middle range from too stiff to too floppy without any substance. This is why many old masters look very relaxed doing their forms so they look like they have no outwardly visible power (very misleading) to the onlooker, but watch out!

Under the state of relaxation one needs to know certain techniques to recognize Ki and know how to buld it up. In internal systems the basics of this is the "standing pole" exercise which looks very silly but it is very important and the foundation of Ki buildup. Once you recognize your Ki, then you need to know how to move your body in concentric, independant circles, inside outside, smooth flowing, with no interruptions.

This is very difficult to do and this is why so much has been written lately about how Modern karate kata with "it's stop-and-go" movement and tempo, and the "freezing on Kime" with the body all "tense" to show how physically strong one is is not condusive toward proper martial power.

Let's face it if you are as stiff as a board, you are surely going to get defeated by anyone who is relaxed, and you will do most of the defeating yourself.

2) Breathing is all important, and there are2 specific ways to breathe 1 of which relate to martial arts and is not commonly practiced today. One is the normal breathing where the belly expands upon inhaling, and contracts upon exhaling. The other is reverse breathing with is the opposite. This is what is commonly used when the practitioner wishes to apply internal force in an outburst of energy.

3)
There are specific exercises called "silk reeling" that some (not all) internal arts use to teach one how to develop Ki recognition and generation, without this, it is virtually nearly impossible to achieve.

4)
Then one has to train the mind to coordinate with this relaxation in a "total body integration" using a concept very common to chinese internal arts called "mind intent" which is sort of like "focusing", that is the best way I can explain it in a karate sort of way.

4) When you put it all together it works like this:

a- the mind is the chief. The mind commands and creates "intent".
b- Intent pushes the Ki towards the "intended body part" which will be the weapon used.
c- The Ki is converted to force/power upon contact with the opponent.

This is a very simplistic readers digest version of a very complex system of study which takes years upon years of study but it is very common in chinese arts, but it is very rare to find external karate-ka who have a true "command and control" of it. I have been very fortunate to have found and trained with 3 individuals who have different levels of this skill in different ways, one is Sensei TIm Rodgers (Shorinjiryu), another is Sensei Toshihiro Oshiro (Shorinryu and Yamanni ryu), and the third is Sifu Qichen Guo (Chen Style Taiji quan).

I do not make claims that I master this, but I do claim that I am legitimately studying it under a Taiji Master in Los Angeles and I have at the very least a mental understanding and a good working picture of the "thing" as a blueprint to follow. And this is very important because without this "blueprint" how can one build a foundation towards a bigger goal.

I grew up a Karate ka, I have hundreds of books and videos and I have researched quite a bit. My stint as the editor of Bugeisha magazine opened so many doors and gave me access to many Masters and the priviledge to make contact with many things that I would never have access to. But with all this, there are no readily available resources which I have ever found to even touch base on what I wrote about on the subject of "KI" above.

The irony of it all, is that all this well documented and available readily by chinese internal teachers in tons of books and publications. Something definately got lost in the migration of Karate from Okinawa to japan and the rest of the world. I think we will sadly never really know how much or how little this aspect of Karate was part of the "closed" sessions in the days of Sakugawa, Matsumura, to the pre WWII masters. So much was lost in the Battle of Okinawa in terms of people, documentation, books etc... But all is not Lost for it all came from China originally, and China is still alive and vibrant with masters who are passing the torch. It is all there all you have to do is find the time and do the work.

Although I am studying Chen Taiji and feel like a new beginner (which is a great feeling to do all over again!) studying something that is so rich in culture and content, with much more complexity and detail than the external karate I first learned; I find that this internal knowledge is allowing me to redefine and elevate my karate to a new level that would have been impossible for me to reach if I just continued doing the same old thing I was doing. I hit a plateau and was stuck. And I know that many of my karate peers feel the same way and that this is a wall that all external artists (of any style and or culture) will inevitably hit one day where there is nowhere else to go, and you find yourself asking the BIG question-
"is there anything more to this"?

I am happy to say that YES there is plenty more, but one has to have an open mind, empty the cup, and put away all rank and ego in the closet. There are some good resources I can recomned that are very detailed (not an easy read at first) but excellent:
Chen Style: The Source of Taijiquan by Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, David Gaffney (find it at Amazon),

also many works of Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming at his website
<http://www.ymaa.com/>

Hope this helped (my fingers are tired).
Sayonara

[Striking Hand]

nincho.

Great to see another Chen TJQ person on here.
I really liked your last post, very well written.

BTW, there have been recently a few heated debates about the existence of Qi on some forums here.
So you might not get much feedback here.

Cheers.

P.S.: Am I correct in assuming that you are studying "Large Frame" style or is it "New Frame".
Myself I am studying "Small Frame".

[Akshel]

Thank you so much, this helps quite a bit to my understanding. As you said, most chinese internal art focuses on KIs as well as Aikido. But does Aikido truly capture or instill the same essence ingrained? Many practitioners will tell you that sometimes Aikido is a bit complicated, or not too effective when you are against ferocious opponent(s), which would require combats prowess of a hard style. And some will argue that they dont much focus on KIs, just meditation and dojo etiquettes. But most for the part love Aikido. But my question is, does it really focus on KI like Tai Chi? Just curious. Intense explanation. Practicing Karate, did you even feel that you could not defend yourself from opponent who was bigger than your or far superior in strength and speed but does not hold same karate skill as you? Thank you. :D

[CEB]

Mr. Lemus will be very well recieved by some of us here. I became interested in Taijiquan when I saw a Yang Style form and realized how some of the postures were simliar to postures from Shisochin. I've practice with a local teacher who I believe has helped my Goju Ryu quite a bit. In Goju Ryu we do hard and soft forms of Kakie. We try to develop a lot of the same basic things but go about it in different manner. Silk reeling and push hands have helped my kakie. The sensitivity required for the Taiji exercises have helped develop my sense of muchimi, I think.


My instructor really likes ChiGong. He always closes class with this one Chi Gong. I can't tell you what chi is but I always feel better after a Taijiquan workout. I can't always say that about our Goju workouts, as I limp home from the dojo :)

I dabble in Taiji, Victor here has practiced Taiji for a long time. Kusanku is also has a taiji background I believe. Its all good here in the karate forum. The members lounge gets a little crazy though, a lot mean spirited people hang out there. Not as warm and loving as the Karate forum.

Glad to have you 2 guys here.

[Goju Man]

I think I'm pleading the fifth.

Johnny, he beat you out.:D

[Akshel]

This may add onto redundancy of my nature, lol. But here is a topic being discussed here relevant to what Mr. Lemus was saying, when people get old, they have to rely on their internal power or soft art.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=21280

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=12

[Akshel]

But is chi really applicable to self defense? I mean when you are doing some kinda taisabaki and evasive maneuvers, avoiding the attack and applying some kinda restraint on the attacker, things you'd see in Aikido, tuite aspect of Karate, Chin-Na, and Tai chi, aren't you pretty much applying well memorized techniques taken from your mind in synched with your muscle memory, and hence adapting to whatever the attack might be by using these principles behind the techniques? Either way, the fundamental is getting your opponent(s) down to the ground by redirecting their "energy" or attack. Of course it would be foolish if an opponent intends to drive knife to your kidney while you set yourself up for a reverse punch to his spleen. Now that's a game of chicken, who's gonna land the blow first? Hehe. So joint locks and throws would be the best in such situation, not atemis, and this would work well for any individual, despite power or age, well as far as I think from Judo. Of course I only mean it in a definite relatiivity, you really wouldn't expect a 10 year old to win nor a frail 70 year old man with little MA skills over the years to do the same. Thank you.

[hobbitbob]

Does it , perhaps, depend on the martial skills of the Taiji practitoner? We had an Ikkyu at the Shotokan Dojo I trained at in Baltimore who taught Taijiquan at a rec centre,and her Taiji was definately a martial art!
On the other hand, I took Taijiquan many years ago at the U. of Wyoming (yes, tehre is a university in Wyoming!) as a PE class, and it was as far from martial arts as one could get. It was "soft and cuddly" , definitely not Budo. the instructor emphasized that it was for "health, and ahd studied for about a year before he began to teach.

[Striking Hand]

Akshel.

Qi is in everything you do in TJQ may it be offensive or defensive, often the same move but differently applied.

Too many people, IMHO, confuse qi with jing.

TJQ can be practiced for either health or martial application, but you will not get the full health benefit unless you train for the martial side this includes weapons, push-hands, Silk reeling, Zhang Zhuang, etc.

Cheers.

[Gene Williams]

It is very difficult to define ki...try to define spirit...??? I'm not even sure that a definition is that helpful. Remember the story about the baby fish that asked its mama, "What is a fish?" The mama fish just swam all through the water effortlessly, jumped, darted, flipped, and just did all kinds of fishy things. The baby fish said,"oh." And that was it. It may be easier to come at ki through an understanding of shibumi (shibui), most often defined as "effortless perfection", or "effortless power." Every accomplished artist has "ki"....concert pianists, painters, sculptors, dancers, writers Greg Maddux, Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Joe DiMaggio. But just try to define what it is.... It has a lot to do with spirit and focus, and years and years of practice. Know what? I bet none of the above mentioned spent much time trying to define what it was they "had." Gene

[Akshel]

Ya, it's a very ambiguous term isn't it? lol. I mean internal art works on your muscle and energy. But so does external art, it will work on your flexibility, give muscle mass, and hence feeling good and feeling fit, and doing 1000 jumping jacks if you feel like it, if leads to reconciliation would mean you're harnessing your ki right? At least from one aspect? So it's not necessarily so that the external art becomes obsolete when challenging an internal one in a challenge or bout? If you're talking about internal art culitivating your spirit, well, even an external art should do the same, refine a person's character and judgement, but depending on the teacher though.

[Gene Williams]

Millia, I think you are artificially separating the internal and the external arts. Each is both. I think you are getting tangled up in the words. Ki is not something you come at intellectually. You just have to let it happen. Gene

[Striking Hand]

Akshel.

In CMA ALL the styles includes some forms of Qi-Gong (Ki-Ko?? in japanese).

If I remember correctly San-Chien form is designed to develop internal principles.
As are some 2-man exercises and drills.

Most of the external arts don't lay the emphasis on internal skill till you reach quiet a high level in the Art.

As a rough (disliked) guideline see it as follows:
External MA = external --> internal
Internal Ma = internal --> external.

or

External MA = enhance your current capabilities.
Internal MA = Change your current habits and attributes and than enhance them.

Either way they are simply different roads to the top of the same mountain, at the top there should no longer be a style but pure skill.

Cheers.

[Akshel]

Originally posted by nincho
Without it one is stuck in the external power realm, and will utilize muscle tissue and muscular tension to exert outer force. This being the case then only those of superior physical strenght will most likely win a fight (given the 2 opponents have equal martial skills) this is not the vision of what superior martial skill is about, otherwise only the young and powerfull will prevail. The old masters who lose external physical strengh offset this loss by the lifelong buildup of the skill to 1) recognize KI, 2) know how to gather it, 3) know how to utilize at will through the body and focus it to a weapon (i.e fist, foot, hand, shoulder etc...).


if you failed to read all the posts, I was leading off to one direction. I am pretty much on this discussion adhering to the principle that Mr. Lemus said, when you're old and your muscle rots, lol, internal arts perhaps will assist you overcome someone with sheer strength when challenged. I never said they are not perhaps the same coin with two sides. But you do realize that some of the arts seperated, some are purely external and some are purely internal. So you cant stay if you're studying one style, you'll cover both!

[Gene Williams]

AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!! You guys have got to quit trying to define it! All right everybody, 20 pushups on your knuckles, hit it!!:D Gene

[Akshel]

Like Gene for example here. He needs some internal art ki therapy. The extreme emphasis of external arts has turned him senile. LOL. J/k.

[Gene Williams]

If I put my hand on my screen, will you give me a reiki adjustment? :D

[Striking Hand]

Originally posted by Akshel

But you do realize that some of the arts seperated, some are purely external and some are purely internal. So you cant stay if you're studying one style, you'll cover both!

I disagree with this.
At low level I think this holds true, but not at high level after many years of study and good tuition.

Cheers.

[Gene Williams]

I think I'll wander over to the Men's Room to the Japanese Bikini Thread for some "external" appreciation and low entertainment.:D They're better looking than you guys, anyway.Gene

[Striking Hand]

Gene.

Enjoy it, and no drooling on the keyboard.
;)

[Akshel]

So you're telling me purely competitioned based dojos (not McDojos) that teach karate, muay thai, or TKD would teach "developing" ki once they pass shodan level? LOL. I got a reality flash, most don't. I mean lets take Mr. Lemus for example, I hope to train in his arts, but he himself clearly stated what today's karate lacks concerning ki that was lost during the transition, chinese internal art covers.
You should visit the url below and check some things out about what this guy thinks about karate, really, he's good, but condescending at times.

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/00_plan.html

[Striking Hand]

Akshel.

You don't teach "developing Ki", ki develops as a side-effect of good, long, hard and most important correct training automatically.

BTW, the internal/external classification is very new in CMA, just a bit over 100yrs.
Wing Chun an "external art" shares a lot with TJQ.

FYI, Chen TJQ has a some Shaolin influences and forms in it, and it's execution often looks like shaolin KF more than the TJQ often seen.

Seeya.

[Akshel]

Im sure. And that's what I meant when I said in my previous posts a while back that feeling good in your art is probably harnessing ki. But my point was strictly concerning what Mr. Lemus posted when he defined ki from his perception.

Dear Striking hand,
Thanks for the kind words. I am not intersted in getting into it with anyone who argues the existence of Qi. I my opinion anyone who says it does not exist simply has not experienced and the argument is moot. It is like arguing over the meaning of Love.

I am studyin Chen Style XinJia Yilu (new Frame part one) at this time, i knwo the whole form (83 postures) and I am concentrating now with my teacher on how to move the body with circles. I am really lloking forward next to learning the Cannon Fist (Er lu Pao Chui).

This Taiji is incredible, I cannot emphazise what at awesome deadly martial art it is. You are lucky to have found it, especialy Chen style which in my opinion is the only one that truly represents a martial art!

[Striking Hand]

Originally posted by nincho
Dear Striking hand,
I am studyin Chen Style XinJia Yilu (new Frame part one) at this time, i know the whole form (83 postures) and I am concentrating now with my teacher on how to move the body with circles. I am really looking forward next to learning the Cannon Fist (Er lu Pao Chui).


I am still on Xiao Jia Yilu, but then my teacher goes slow, it takes us about 1yr to learn the movements and spend a few more perfecting it.

Our teacher only teaches us a few movements at a time and we need to get them right before we are shown new material.


This Taiji is incredible, I cannot emphazise what at awesome deadly martial art it is. You are lucky to have found it, especialy Chen style which in my opinion is the only one that truly represents a martial art!

Yes, I was lucky a Chen Family member is living fairly close to me. :D

But agreed it is tough to find good TJQ.

Cheers.

Looks like I opened up a good can of worms here. I 'll hit up some of your replies all in one shot:

Quote from Akshel
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But is chi really applicable to self defense?
-----------------
This is a truly great question because it hits the nail right in the head. If Qi were not applicable in self defense why is there so much reference to it in martial arts? it is not a bunch of mumbo Jumbo. The fact that most people have not been exposed to it and taught about it does not mean it does not exists, and that it is not real. The answer is an absolute YES of course it can be utilized in self defense, and using it no matter wether you are small or big it will only magnify your output. it has nothing to do with the outer circumstances as you mentioned in your post, wether you are moving, evading, punching, trapping, it does not care. The deal is that you are going to be doing all those things anyway the difference is, that without the ability to use Qi you are just using external force with has it's limitations. Using Ki, you are definately more adept at controlling and executing with far greater control and damaging potential.



Quote from hobbitbob
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It was "soft and cuddly", definitely not Budo. the instructor emphasized that it was for "health,
-----------------
There are many styles of Taichi, some are soft and cuddly as you put it. The most popular is Yang style which is done slowly and in a monotenous tempo.

Chen style (the original style is a true martial art) it is fast and slow, hard and soft, low and high, has leaps and stomps, punches, kicks, elbows, sweeps, takedowns, palm strikes, down blocks, uppercuts, more elbows, knee kicks, heel kicks, knife hand chops, chicken heads, throwing, breaking arms & elbows, wrist locks, jumping double kicks (like Chinto and Kusanku), body strikes, shoudler bumps, neck breaks, crescent Kicks, backfists, need I go on?

Now do you want to ask me why I really like Chen style? it is awesome!



Quote from Gene Williams
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Every accomplished artist has "ki"....concert pianists, painters, sculptors, dancers, writers Greg Maddux, Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Joe DiMaggio. But just try to define what it is.... It has a lot to do with spirit and focus, and years and years of practice. Know what? I bet none of the above mentioned spent much time trying to define what it was they "had."
-----------------
Gene this is true, Qi is a natural occurrence in the human body, and Ki is expressed in many ways. Hard work and practice with lots of spirit and focus is all good. But if you are a martial artist trying to find out what Ki is, then what does one need to practice to develop it? Is it just do your kata a lot, or punch a makiwara alot? If someone (I am not implying you) has never trained in an art that specializes in the development and use of Ki, it would be hard to understand how deep and detailed it can really get. There is much more to it than physical labor, and repetition of an activity with a spirited attitude.



Quote from Akshel
-----------------
So it's not necessarily so that the external art becomes obsolete when challenging an internal one in a challenge or bout? If you're talking about internal art culitivating your spirit, well, even an external art should do the same, refine a person's character and judgement, but depending on the teacher though.
-----------------
Another good point, but I want ot make it clear that this discussion is not about "this external guy, can beat this internal guy or vice versa" that would be a silly point and I am not going there. This is about a very personal revelation that can happen to anyone with the right teacher, proper training techniques, time, practice and much patience. The term cultivating the spirit is another esoteric term, what does that really mean? It could mean all kinds of fluffy, warm and fussy things that are best discussed in another forum.

I am talking about clear, definable, demonstrable results. I am talking about being able to do things that if you use all your might, with muscle and strenght you will not achieve the results, and when you are relaxed, and use the Qi you can do things that you would have thought impossible to do without muscle power.
I have done and felt some very cool things that allow me to make these statements from personal experiences. I weight 5'9" 215 pounds built like a truck, my Taiji teacher weights 130 lbs, and is about 5'4". There are times when he can knock me on my ass with one finger. I cannot do the same to him with both my arms and hands. Can I pick him up over my head and throw him thru the air with my physical strenght like a 130 pound sack of potatoes? of course I can. But he would have to let me do it. if he did not express his martial arts prowess with Qi, then I would surely be the superior opponent simply by sheer bulk and skill. But that is not the case.


Quote from Gene Williams
-----------------
AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!! You guys have got to quit trying to define it! All right everybody, 20 pushups on your knuckles, hit it!! Gene
-----------------
OK Gene tonight in my class we did 30 push ups! LOL

Ya'll be cool!

[Goju Man]

Angel, I still don't understand the self defense utilization of chi. Most people remember chi from the old days of people performing "super human" stunts. Even if that were true, they often had to go into some trance or some other steps to prepare, which is not going to happen in a street situation. When you refer to Aikodists using chi, I can tell you that there are scientific explanantions for every thing they do, just like being able to move a huge amount of weight with a lever and a fulcrum, it's not chi. I remember being in an Aikido class where the instructor was to perform randori with several members of the class. When a couple attacked simultaneously, no technique was able to be applied. So how do you turn it on or off in self defense?

[Striking Hand]

Goju-Man.

Those stunts are as much Qi as a stage performer performs magik feasts.
:D

Qi is a metaphysical concepts, nothing tangible, mystical.

Cheers.

[CEB]

Taiji people have a acute sense of balance or an acute sense of their opponents balance. I have seen them off balance people without grabbing. The Taiji people I’ve seen seem to have more luck at doing this than the local Aikido people I have worked out with. In karate we work the same concept. We call it muchimi. It is like grabbing without grabbing, It is a sticky quality we try to develop. We use to crooks in the back of the hand, the hooks in the wrist a, our palms, our forearms to push, pull and manipulate our opponents bearings and balance. This is the practice that comes to my mind when I think of directing and redirecting qi. I don’t think it is any different than what Judo people refer to as Seiryoku Zenyo, Judo’s principle of maximum efficiency. Hector started Judo when he was very young so he my have never had this experience because it may have always been instinctive for him. I know Manny plays some Judo, I don’t know how many other old Judo player read this forum, but for me randori was a hard process for a long time. Then finally one night during randori I caught my opponent just right and I threw him for ippon. For second I kind of freak out because it was like I lost track of my opponent because he was airborne. The throw was literally effortless. The really good throws are like that. It just happen no grunting no lifting just the effortless administration of a flying lesson. I find more use of ki among good Judo-ka than any of the Aikido-ka I have seen. (my exposure to Aikido is limited). The Taiji teacher I know gets into some Daoist alchemy stuff that I just can’t comprehend, but like I said I always feel better after his class. Maybe it is old psychosomatic mind trick, I have no idea. But on a theoretical level Taiji and Judo aren’t necessarily that far apart are they?

Quote from Ceb
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But on a theoretical level Taiji and Judo aren?t necessarily that far apart are they?
---------------------
Taiji, Judo, Aikido, Jujutsu, Chin-Na all have areas of overlap, like for example the Happo no Kuzushi (8 stages of off balance) all use the principle of Ju (yielding), all use mechanics, momemtum etc.... all these things require contact, closeness, and the ability to FEEL the delicate or course actions that an opponent makes while in contact with you, which allows you to sense what is happening and react to it.

All this are external function which require specific training. One reason Karate ka ingeneral lack skills in these is because for so many years they have practice long distance figthing just punching and kicking. Doesn't it make sence? I am not bashing Karate ka remember I am one of them. I am just speaking the facts.

Yet again we all have Ki and use it even thought one may not even know it is there. But without training in how to generate it and use it on demand, thenpredominately a martial artists in relying 99%-100% on external power and is not tapping into this available resource. Let me make what is probably a bad analogy but here it goes- If you do not speak a foreign language you cannot use it, but you can still communicate with that personvia other means, sign language and pointing. Thus, it is not as effective as understanding and having a working use of the full language.

Again all I can stress here is that I encourage you to find a teacher if you want to know more and possibly explore and expand you skills into an area that would elevate your martial potential. All this talking about it is pointless, becasue ultimately it is a physical endeavor. but all this talking abotu it is good becasue it spreads the words and via this forum we help each other, we share things of interest. I know some are tired of hearing about this, but that is OK, I was once young and oblivious to this and all I wanted to do is kick and punch and mix it up. All these discoveries and expansion of my skills have happened in teh past 5 years and I am now 42 (old fart) so it does take a willingness and dsesire to learn beyond the external aspects of the art.

Good Luck.

[hector gomez]

Michael Jordan,Tiger Woods,Andre Agassi all of these athletes have a knack for being able to get into the zone or another expression often used is getting into the groove.They all seem to get into this zone a lot easier than most other humans that are playing their particular sport.


These special athletes have the mental abilty to tune into the human mind and make it work more effortless with the body and soul and yes even the breathing becomes united as one.


Most athletes know about this thing called the zone,ki,chi,or whatever,the problem is that most that do get into the groove sometimes don't even know how they got there that day,they just know that everything is ticking like a swiss watch.





Hector Gomez

[CEB]

Not me I was talking about sensitivity and maximum effciency and how I think Judo-ka seem to know more about Ki than the AiKIdo-ka I've seen.

[hector gomez]

Ed,I did agree with your assesment.


Hector Gomez

[Machimura]

All good MAs are a combo of internal and external principles. It is natural for the beginner to be stiff, unnatural and involved with "thinking" about a tech.. Tha aim of many traditional Okinawan and Chinese arts is to take someone with little knowledge of himself and his body and make him much more relaxed with "self".

Those arts that claim to be external, often become less so (in appearance and application) once the practitioner has reached a certain level of proficiency. The progression being hard, hard/soft, then eventually soft. Still there are moments of external force, but as my sensei says "all techniques are internal"; you deliver external force from you to whatever you're striking or attacking, thus it becomes internalized in the target.

Judo is soft, but is it nejia in the traditonal sense? The same goes for Aikido. Is Shuai Chiao an internal art? I don't think it can be totally classified as such. When you are grappling, sensitivity and flow allow you to become one unit with your opponent. There is usually a moment of external exertion, such as when you are trying to sink a technique in, or perform a lock in a dynamic "explosive" fashion. Judo is physically demanding, and that would imply external principles. Lots of sweat and hard work. Many Tai Chi practitioners would caution against "sweating" your chi out.

Tai Chi is of the Shaolin tradition. Yet it is not like Shaolin in that many styles have forgotten their combat efficacy. Without the external you have no internal. Relaxation, sinew strengthening (vs. bone/muscle), proper structural support and alignment (which you don't get from the "wandering" dantien that accompanies styles that do exaggerated, unnatural stances) are some components of chi. The mental aspect plays a huge role too. I know--"duh"!

Tai Chi sounds cool!

Bryan Cyr

[Kimura]

Quote from CEB,
No not me I was talking about sensitivity and maximum efficiency and how I think that the judoka seems to know more about Ki than the aikidoka I have seen.



Ed,the reason this could be true and I know I keep using this word over again time after time but here we go again "live resistance training"holds the key to real sensitivity and maximum efficiency.

If you ever have the chance to roll with a genuine BJJ black belt it feels like rolling(newaza) with a slippery wet mammal that uses no effort whatsover and a hell of a lot of leverage with minimum effort or strength.


How do these grapplers achieve this level of expertise,sensitivty,great intuition,along with a sixth sense of positioning and leverage?Many long hours of here goes that word again LIVE RESISTANCE TRAINING.


Hector Gomez

[Goju Man]

I still fail to understand the Ki part of it. Sensitivity training is done through actual work or sparring, not by chi kung exercises. I'm all for feeling good spiritualy and even physically through chi kung, yoga, meditation, etc. It's the old mystique about the superhuman powerful force being able to knock the wind out of someone without touching them. I still haven't seen it. That feel that judo players and bjj guys have comes from hundreds of thousands of hours on the mat with, dare I say, a live resisting opponent.

[Striking Hand]

Originally posted by Goju Man
I still fail to understand the Ki part of it. Sensitivity training is done through actual work or sparring, not by chi kung exercises.


Chi-kung can assist the process, by teaching you to relax and be more sensitive to your own body.

In TJQ we got a saying:

During kuen(Form) practice you learn to know about yourself, during Tui Shou (Push hands) you learn to know others.


It's the old mystique about the superhuman powerful force being able to knock the wind out of someone without touching them. I still haven't seen it.


Only time I seen it myself was in DragonBall.
:D

As my Sifu sez, if we could do it why do we waste so much time with weapons training. And we got plenty. ;)


That feel that judo players and bjj guys have comes from hundreds of thousands of hours on the mat with, dare I say, a live resisting opponent.

or Tui shou and San Shou in the case of TJQ.

[Gene Williams]

I still believe this is a problem of definitions, and definitions for ki are very difficult to come up with. Everyone is throwing around a lot of words and concepts, but Manny is probably closer to it than anyone just because it may be simpler than anyone thinks (imagine that). Gene

[Striking Hand]

Originally posted by Machimura

Tai Chi is of the Shaolin tradition. Yet it is not like Shaolin in that many styles have forgotten their combat efficacy. Without the external you have no internal. Relaxation, sinew strengthening (vs. bone/muscle), proper structural support and alignment (which you don't get from the "wandering" dantien that accompanies styles that do exaggerated, unnatural stances) are some components of chi. The mental aspect plays a huge role too. I know--"duh"!

Tai Chi sounds cool!

Bryan Cyr

Nice post.

One problem I see is that not many people are familiar with the internal arts perse.

Most of them only see the slow forms done by beginnners.
Not many people know about the 2-man practices, forms, weapons and the strength trainign exercises that are included in the art.
Fully agree that external and internal go together, and that both concepts need to be present in any good MA system.

Just look at the mis-translation of Taijiquan " Great Imperial Fist" it should be "Great Polar Fist" as both Ying and Yang are contained and expressed in it.
This should be visible in any TJQ style regardless of lineage.

[Striking Hand]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
I still believe this is a problem of definitions, and definitions for ki are very difficult to come up with. Everyone is throwing around a lot of words and concepts, but Manny is probably closer to it than anyone just because it may be simpler than anyone thinks (imagine that). Gene

I agree it is simple, but at the same time difficult to define or describe.

If you feel it, you will know what I mean.
;)

Striking Hand said:
------------------------
One problem I see is that not many people are familiar with the internal arts perse.
Most of them only see the slow forms done by beginnners.
Not many people know about the 2-man practices, forms, weapons and the strength trainign exercises that are included in the art.
------------------------

Bottom line is it is very hard to understand any of this stuff if you have never tried it. There is no equivalent in Karate to Push hands or anything that would transmit the same experience. In addition Silk reeling is non existant in many if the Taiji styles and there is nothing like it in most external styels. many people get caught up in simantics like you put it, and confuse the issue with metaphysical stuff, touchy feely spiritual stuff, and sensitivity training.

This all gets boiled in a pot a you have a hearty "confusion stew". This is an interesting thread, but there are limits to what one can do by talking about it. I think this one has hit that mark, this is one of those things that has to be experienced more than talked about in the end.

I just had a kickass hardcore old fashioned get down and dirty Karate seminar with Sensei Tamas Weber of Sweden who is visiting in So Cal. So I had definately my external hardcore karate hat on tonight. I am tired and sore as hell. Goodnight!

[yoj]

I've been trying to find an article i had read on chi kung, but alas it eludes me, however, if i recall the gist of it was...

Research had shown that practising chi kung helped to train the muscles of say the legs, back into a normal state of being. Which is, there are 2 kinds of muscle fibres - fast and slow. As tensed up grown ups we use the fast for everything, the muscles don't appreciate the need to do anything else. After much chi kung, the muscle gets bored of burning up with the fast fibres (the sweating and tiredness you start with in chi kung) and 'remembers' to use the slow fibres for a 'relaxed' state, and engage the fast fibres for movement.

This was the results of proper research, paraphrased as best i can. But it makes sense, as hunter gatherers we would have spent a lot of time in an unlocked knee position, croching to spear something or whatever. But in our nice safe world we move everywhere as adults with locked knees - so the muscles forget stuff. As kids playing, the same applies, and kids have a lot of energy.

But as adults say freesparring, being told to stand there with offlock knees, we get tired fast and cant move very quickly, even though thats the point of unlocking your knees. And it's because the muscle has locked holding it there. If it can be trained to hold it's position using the slow fibres, all the fast ones are available for explosive (relaxed) movement.

This isn't completely pertinent maybe, but it's something i read, casts some light onto 'how do you do stuff relaxed in the heat of the moment' (you don't the muscle just does it's thing) and is kind of interesting....

[MarkF]

I may be wrong, but it seems you are talking about "conditioned reflexes and responses." I don't think it necessarily takes experience with an internal art, you just have to move that way. Jigoro Kano spoke to this early in his study of various jujutsu technique. At the proper time, there is a need for strength, quickness and the muscles used, but it is momentary and should be discarded as soon as possible.

One uses muscle to remain in a relaxed state just as one uses them for the opposite. Kano didn't deny the use of muscle and strength, he simply stated that the window for this is very small, and only certain ones are necessary. Otherwise, breathe, center and relax, but if you get to an age or place when this becomes difficult, taiji may be the prescription you need.


Mark

[bruceb]

I usually don't post over here, but I saw this discussion when I checked out new posts.

Most of what ki is or is not ....well ... most of it has been posted in this thread, believe it or not.

Hard work.
Observation of techniques.
Internal connection of body and mind.
Application of physical training.
and, learning to relax ...

What impressed me was that there was an observation of throwing a partner during randori that felt like nothing, and a question of there being a mind trick, or a disconnection from normal perception allowing all forces available to come together so both physical forces allign and mental forces allign .... which is the key to ki and the explanation we need to understand when we search for ki. Yes, it is like being an exceptional athelete where everything feels like next to nothing because you have alligned the forces available, and your thinking perception is somewhat other than normal.

There are two other aspects to explore.

Emotional triangle, that is, the use of emotions to send signals to you mind and body that draw upon activators for not only your physical efforts, but send signals to your opponent so they react with an involuntary reflex.

Use of polarity, or understanding the human body is an antenna that recieves stimuli and that these stimuli can be blocked either physically or mentally so that you are not subliminally or physically affected to respond from this stimuli. In effect, neutralize the technique of someone who seems to push you over with one finger. Look for it in Kata, and in forms ... it is in there.

I am just starting to understand the theory of polarity sending signals the human body interprets as signals we call pathways, much like electricity follows the path of least resistence, so too these signals seem to be like electricity between two people when techniques are used. Diverting, or lessoning someones strikes so they are nearly inneffective is one means of understanding this process.

It is often found in postures, attacks, and techniques that striking or manipulations are more effective when the allignment of body, mind, and emotion/mind is used rather just one of two of these. The theory of doing a technique, form, or practice 100,000 times is the impractical application and roadmap to find this to be true.

If you begin to see these messages, and can interpret them from your hours of training, whether it is consciously or unconsciously present, it will advance your ideas of what ki is because you will have a roadmap of what works and what does not.

Got ki?

Consider not just the physical indicators, but the mental aspects of emotion, and combination of thoughts it takes to effect the perfection of physical application, and you will have a roadmap to get ki.

Of course these are my opinions, so you should take your own notes, make your own conclusions.

If enough of us come to the same conclusions .... well ... then we should explore why we have come to the same conclusion.

Maybe then, we can all get a handle on ki.

[CEB]

Originally posted by nincho

There is no equivalent in Karate to Push hands or anything that would transmit the same experience. In addition Silk reeling is non existant in many if the Taiji styles and there is nothing like it in most external styels. many people get caught up in simantics like you put it, and confuse the issue with metaphysical stuff, touchy feely spiritual stuff, and sensitivity training.



Your profile says you have degrees in Goju Ryu. I am wondering what is it you see in push hands and silk reeling exercises that have no parallel in Goju Ryu? I always kind of thought of Kakie as our push hands. We start out with harder forms of kakie where practitioners push straight back and forth and techniques are setup by varying the amount of resistance, but at more advanced levels we use softer kakie, up and down kakie, a more circular kakie. I've been introduced to some silk reeling and the goal in silk reeling in don't see as being all that different from our goal of muchimi development. Just curious exactly what you see in Taiji that you can't find in Goju.

There is a lot of Goju Ryu in the US now. I suppose it is possible you are not from one of the more orthodox lines. If so I apologize. Thanks for your input.

CEB Said:
---------
I am wondering what is it you see in push hands and silk reeling exercises that have no parallel in Goju Ryu?
-------

Exellent question! I am very familiar with Gojuryu's curriculum and it's kakie practices which is more than traditional Shorin even offers, for it does not really have Kakie like Goju does. Although Gojuryu's Kakie exercises are definately one step closer to providing a continuos and flowing form sensitivity training, it usually ends up being a muscle tugging, exercise where both participants do have the opportunity to feel each others tugs and pulls, and one can definately begin to instinctively react to the sensations and input.

But Goju Kakie and Taiji push hands are worlds apart in their execution (and this is not a criticism of Goju kakie, I am merely pointing out the differences for those that have not had the opportunity to experience both therefore cannot appreciate the differences and intricacies between them). Taiji relies on relaxation where one is NOT trying to overpower an opponent, and thus will use the opponents own force against him.

I equate Kakie with how Judo has ended up being more of a brute force and musclebound activity where both contestants are fighting for grips, and trying to controll each other while trying to tear each others heads off. this is one reason I eventually stopped competting in Judo, in order to compete with the evergrowing trend of Judo competitors developing gorilla muscles bodies, I saw no point in continuing to keep up with it cause to me it was counter productice to Judos original goal of "JU" giving way. Plus by th eearly 80s I was fully into Karate and I always felt like elbowing or kicking the gorillas and I began to loose interest in it.

Getting back to Kakie and Push hands, Push hands practice also emphasises many different techniques, were you are not just pushing the hands, there are head pushes, body pushes, shoulder pushes etc.... it is also done in different stances, and positions and the fact that you are not supposed to offer force (only enought to effectively feel called -Peng energy) the way it feels inside is and the results one gets go in an opposite direction than what you get with kakie. Nothing wrong with Kakie- I don't want Gojukas thinking I am bashing their beloved art cause I am one too. Just pointing out teh differences, and hopefully to make the point that Kakie does not lead to teh same experience and results as Taiji push hands.

[Sokudo]

Hola,

I came in "mid-movie", but I wanted to address a question that was posed by Akshel. That being: "But is chi really applicable to self defense?..."

Chi/Ki is definitely applicable to self-defense, but it is not a requirement in order to defend oneself. Muscle memory, strength, stamina, skill and luck will suffice.

There are different facets to Chi/Ki, in that there are different energies that can be utilized. Each one of the energies applies to specific principles or situations that when properly used, can help minimize energy expenditure and maximize power generation and technique execution.

Knowing how to use internal energy is especially beneficial in close-up scenarios. People who know how to use their internal energy can generate a huge amount of power without the need to swing or the need of huge momentum building techniques.

This is very important in self defense because if one does not stop an attacker during the long or medium ranges, then it will boil down to short range. If one knows how to generate a lot of power in a very small amount of space he/she may be able to incapacitate the attacker before the fight becomes very ugly.

Short range can easily become a wrestling match as most people will get taken to the ground and this becomes very tiring and potentially dangerous for the slim and weak (me):D .

[Ginko]

Sokudo,

Great points & welcome to the Forum!

[Sochin]

Yes,
you are welcome to this place, Sokudo.

please sign every post with your full name as per the rules on the bottom of every page...

Thanks,

[Sokudo]

Ginko Sensei!

Hola! Thanks for turning Sensei on to this forum. This is a really great thing.

I hope to see you within the next couple of months.

Thanks, Sonchin. I tend not to notice the fine print.

[Machimura]

Originally posted by nincho
CEB Said:
---------
I am wondering what is it you see in push hands and silk reeling exercises that have no parallel in Goju Ryu?
-------

Exellent question! I am very familiar with Gojuryu's curriculum and it's kakie practices which is more than traditional Shorin even offers, for it does not really have Kakie like Goju does.

Are you so sure all Shorin Ryuha have no exercises similar to kakie? In Matsumura Orthodox, alternating partner circular blocking drills, as well as 2-man sensitivity/fighting drills abound. These are done at almost full speed and strength. The former is a flowing exercise. Fluidity and decisiveness is the key in partner drills. Kata training done correctly is good Chigung. Walking correctly, breathing correctly, acting benevolently and thinking lucidly are all good chigung.

Energy spent vs. energy gained or retained must be balanced. When one can exert 60% of their energy and still be exemplary or superior to an opponent expending 90-100% then you have realized some aspects of ki.

We must not get the words chi and ch'i mixed up. As explained earlier chi as in Tai Chi means "Great Polarity". Chaos' division into Yin and Yang results in "Chi" or the duality of all- the polar opposites comprising our reality. "Ch'i" refers to the black and white "dots" embedded in its polar opposite. The black and white circles seen in the traditional representation of Yin and Yang. These "seeds" of chaos/order are actually the vital force interrupting the structure of existence. Defined "Ch'i" literally means "gas" or "ether". The Chinese used "ch'i" to represent the breath in the body or vital energy. Neo-Confuscians redefined ch'i as vacuum energy. Put another way "the fluctuating field that looks like energy arising spontaneously out of nothing in continual interaction with the body and mind.- F. Wolf, Ph.D."

So it is not energy. Vacuums produce energy, just as quickly as they retain it. Now the opening of Kusanku, where "Ku" is represented by creating the Delta or Triangle sign with both hands, makes more sense, huh? "Ku" is "the vacuum from which all things spring eternal". Cool, huh? Does Goju use this beginning movement in any of its forms?

Information is consatntly flowing from the past and the future into the present. Those who understand physics understand this. The past provides us with lessons and a reference point (among many things) and the future- hope, renewal breaking of unmanageable rules etc.. Ancient Chinese philosophy provides a picture of ch'i as a form of energy which in actuality is not energy at all. It is far removed from that simple term and an enigma.

Yuan Ch'i is the creator of chaos. Constant chaos was "upsetting" so it divided into 2 parts, Yin and Yang. The soul which has failed to recover from this division, now faces the possibilities of the fundamental act of creation or magic from which all trouble arises. Matter and energy space-time separartion, male and female energy division, all duality. The "karma" of the soul is that which is continuously trying to put things in order or some flow, or regain its balance (which blurs Yin and Yang); "karma" is bouncing back and forth into chaos and into the primal ch'i with every conscious action.

So is ch'i real? Only if the universe/multiverse is. Can one "harness" and "cultivate" ch'i? Who's to say? I think so and so do many philosophers and theoretical physicists. It can be supported by numbers, and science is now taking it seriously. If you believe in God and a soul then you have to believe in Ch'i. Very deep, but easy to perceive if you let yourself. This is why some people excel at traditional training and others do not. Understanding what you are learning is key. Real traditional MAs training based on the Chinese template will enhance ones "ch'i". "Chi" (sans apostrophe) is something altogether different ;)!

Do you have "good ch'i"? :)

Bryan Cyr

[Gene Williams]

So, what you're saying is ki is key...:D

Bryan,

Wow you are getting into some pretty heavy stuff here, had to read it more than once to follow it (you're getting into phylosophical, metaphysical, religious stuff, I think a bit more than what this thread was oroginally about, but interesteing nonetheless!).

I agree that some ryus have flowing drills as you mention and some are intended to promote sensitivity and such, your comments are excellent in explaining what your style and curriculum cover.

My original point still is that taiji 2 man push hand drills are unique and very different than exercises in Karate styles that employ 2 people due to the nature of Taiji which which is unlike any Karate, kungfu or any external style. There is nothing I have seen even in any Karate style that is an Apples-to-apples equivalent.

As far a Chi in my post, I am talking about the term generally used in Chinese martial arts meaning "breath" - life force - internal energy, and it's relationship to how it is used in the martial arts (keeping it simple).

I enjoyed your reply please keep it up.

[bruceb]

I don't think that this discussion is gettting too far out, philosophical, metaphysical, religious because all the clues to finding the activators and motivators for Ki have been covered.

Put the puzzle together.

Physical forces for increasing the energy of the human body, forces available, thoughts that activate the use of these forces, and the efficient use of stimulators that can increase the out put of energy from the body and mind.

You guys are right on track for discovery and use of the many elements that will give you the power of mind over body.

The Side Bar to this element is knowing, or even sensing what is harmful to your minds health, or your bodys physical health. These elements are often overlooked in the balance of overextending yourself into the arena of injury. Yes, it is an injury. Not always seen because of its slow deteriorating effect, or slow physical effect to damage health, but it is there none-the-less.

If you continue to advance into the health aspects of using this tool, you will seek out a health regimen that keeps your mind and body in balance as not to become physically injured, or mentally injured as the deception of using ki is a partial disconnect from normal everyday thinking mind that obeys the body's prompts from pain and sensory input.

I think I have said too much ....

Don't forget to learn the physical health standards that will help to keep your health strong, and the mental exercises that will let you keep your mental health.

Reread this thread, and consider ....

Physical aspects of the body's health, mental aspects of visualization, and using the tools or elements available to their full potential. These down to earth considerations are neither far out, nor are they impossible to learn.

Don't neglect your normal training, but take mental notes to see if some of the things we talk about in affecting strong Ki/ chi do not come out with the stronger training partners you meet in your own style.

You guys are on the right track .... now ... put the pieces together.

[CEB]

My knowledge of conversational Japanese is very limited. But if I understand correctly, If someone is sick it is said they have byouki (weak ki,I think ). If someone is very healthly and robust then it is genki.

Homophones get me in trouble all the time with Japanese. Is the kanji for ki as in genki and byouki the same as in Ki when used in regards to budo? I've assume so but I have been burned a few times making likewise assumptions. If it is then we are dealing with a concept that is one of the most basic concepts in the daily life of Japanese culture. If the two different ki are the same thing it becomes kind of silly debating if it exists or not.

[Kimura]

Once a Major League Baseball player starts thinking and overanalyzing along with feeding the brain excess"Mierda"his ability to hit a baseball really suffers.


Hector Gomez

[Goju Man]

Not only baseball, but golf, for example, if too much analysis is made on all the points of the swing, it goes to doodoo. Many golfers have a similar motto: grip it and rip it.

[Gene Williams]

Ed, If you are having trouble with Japanese homophones, stay out of the gay bars over there. Gene

OK Bruce,

I am with Kimura, Gojuman, and Gene, this is getting way off topic and into the "over-analyzation" realm. What I tried to do here was to offer explicit "not implicit' explanations, and actual examples to cover this difficult topic with short and as clear as possible comments.

I relaize that one can can go way off the deep end on this topic but the last few posts in opinion do not help to clirify matters but to further plunge it into teh "what was that?- what did he say?- Abbys". I know it's all with god intentions, but to me going in that direction has never helped to clarify things only confuse things and them harder for anyone to grasp. when talking about Chi, it's use, how to generate it with Chinese teachers who don't master the english language, I can understand them better than some of these posts.

It is hard and difficult topic and technique to master, but the laguage and examples to explain and teach it do not need to be hard to understand. I always believe in "keeping it simple".

[Machimura]

The reflection of a rain puddle distorts our perception of how deep the impression, depression or hole may be. It may seem to be deep and enigmatic, but in reality it is probably quite shallow. Depth is entailed in all existence, and often easy to understand. You might have to step in it to understand this fact.

So "Ch'i" which is what you guys are talking about (not "Chi"), can be defined simply as "a fluctuating field that looks like energy arising spontaneously out of nothing in continual interaction with the body and mind". It is not energy per se, but the "vacuum which produces energy, quickly grabbing it back. Bubbling and frothing continuously".

Does that make it simpler? This is the "gas or ether" (ch'i) you guys are talking about. "Chi" is the black and white field which surrounds the "seed" of the other aspect i.e. the black circle in the white field and the white circle in the black field- this is "Ch'i".

Yin/Yang proper (excluding its antithesis "seed" or circle) is the Chi/Ki that is being used in this thread. The thing is you have the right explanation of what "Ch'i" is, but the wrong character/term is being used (Chi). 2 different words altogether, but inextricably related. That's all I'm saying. It's not complicated whatsoever.

Keeping It Simple Stupid is a relative statement based on one's knowledge base. It is easy and it is all One. All paths may lead to the top of the mountain, but the circuitous route or dangerous shortcuts often deviate your course. The journey will be that much tougher, and longer, and you may never reach that destination.

Bryan Cyr

Dude, you definately got a heavy way with words, I dig it, and I would not be surpriced if you are a poet!

But your eloquent words are not making things any clearer for the folks in this thread (in my opinion) who are asking to understand the basics. That is all I am going to say about this. I am done here.

[Gene Williams]

Bryan, You don't work out enough. You like gobbledygook too much. Give us a break. You are starting to sound like your buddy Kusanku. Maybe you two are Siamese twins joined at the mouth. Gene