Scrolls

[Kamuii]

Greetings...

I have seen that usually the Soke of each ryuha have a set of scrolls. These may vary and have different names for different puposes. Can anyone have a correct definition and name of each of the different scrolls given?

Example: Densho, Makimono, Torimaki, etc...

Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

[ghp]

The scroll that passes lineage is usually called Soden [Entire Transmission] -- there may be other names; remember, there is no single hard-and-fast rule when it comes to the Japanese language (especially in budo).

Various styles may have a particular name for their soden, such as MJER's Tora-no-maki [Tiger's Scroll]; but, it is still a "soden."

Regards,
Guy

[hyaku]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KAMUII
[B]Greetings...

I have seen that usually the Soke of each ryuha have a set of scrolls. Arnold Vargas.

...............................
As Mr Power says its all Soden.

I don't think there any hard rules to go by. Some Ryu have almost no written evidence as people were most reluctant to put anything that might get into the wrong hands. A lot of it is written in such a way that only a practitioner would understand. Without doubt there is almost no Shomen giri in my Ryu. But certain previous Shihan have written this to disguise the real intention, particularly during the Tokugawa Era.

Some time ago someone asked the present descendant of the fiefs Lord, (Tachibana Sama) if there was any written evidence of my Ryu. They were told no.The people in question have since moved on and those faithfull remain. Then one day when we sat drinking coffee the subject was brought up again. Tachibana said just wait a minute. He came back with a box full of scrolls written by previous Shihan of the Ryu.

NHK television did program on me some time ago. One viewer was a lady who's descendant was a shihan of the Ryu had left scrolls and notes with the family. Not knowing that the Ryu still existed they had handed them down through the family for generations. She came forward and presented them to me.

Without the practical experience the writings are not of much use. Like wise the practice tends to wander off track without a chance to refer to notes on fundamentals.

Hyakutake Colin

[Kamuii]

Thank you for your replies. :)

Ok, lets see if I get more detailed or specific...

Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

I would like to have a definition on these...is it possible?

Any replies are welcome again. Thank you. :)

Best,

Arnold

[Shinobi]

Originally posted by KAMUII
Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


Makimono is a scroll.


Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


TorA no Maki is as Guy said "Tiger scroll". This is just a name for a upper level scroll in some ryûha.


Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?


Densho means "tradition book" which is a book of x-ryûha and usually describes kata, etc.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by KAMUII
Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?
Arnold

Hi Arnold,

I've seen "torimaki" used in one book by Andrew Adams, but don't know if this is a correct way of calling it a scroll. In my dictionary it describes it as a "follower, hanger-on." Also, with the same Kanji it can be pronounced "Torimaku" meaning "surround, encircle."


[Edited by George Kohler on 09-12-2000 at 01:15 AM]

[Kamuii]

Thanks George and Eric for your replies too. :)

I get a better picture now, it was a little confusing when people sometimes talked about the scrolls of a ryuha and mentioned these three, so I had to ask. Thank you again all for your help.

Domo Arigato Gozaimashita! :smilejapa

Best,

Arnold Vargas
Genbukan Satoichi Dojo
&
Tsunami-Ryu Bujutsu

[ghp]

Eric is correct, but let me add my own readings:

Makimono is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Torimaki is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Densho is a scroll used for or what type of scroll is it?

Makimono [maki= roll; mono= thing]. "Scroll" Ageneric term (like "kimono") meaning "something rolled up." [Kimono means "something that is worn"]. A "kakejiku" is a hanging scroll.

Tora no maki [tora= tiger; no= possessive; maki= roll]. "Tiger Scroll." This is the senior ranked scroll of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. Whoever possesses this scroll may claim to be an inheritor. Earl Hartman has researched the Tora no Maki and finds there were multiple awards during any one soke's lifetime. Perhaps Earl will care to comment later.

Densho [den= transmit/transmission; sho= writing/book]. This may be in the form of either scroll or kirikami ["cut paper" -- so called (I think) because it is a sheet of cut paper, as opposed to a scroll). The densho may or may not transmit a school's teachings. Mine is more or less a document stating that I have been granted transmission of the ryu by the soke -- essentially, it states I am a "full-fledged" disciple instead of a student. In some styles the future soke is selected by the incumbent from only those who have been awarded densho.

Regards,
Guy

[Kamuii]

Thanks Guy! :)

All of you have been of great help. I thank you all again. :)

Best,

Arnold

[John Lindsey]

Interesting discussion. I was wondering how prevalent it is for a soke who claims to teach a koryu art to refuse to show their scrolls or any proof of their claims. It seems that it is just the opposite and that they are willing to show them to the right people and under the right circumstances.

[Nathan Scott]

I find it annoying when ryu-ha choose not to let some ligitimate research authorities inspect at least lineage related documents and records.

Besides giving crediblity to their claim (whether they seek it or not), it also helps historians track inter-relationships and what not between ryu-ha and other bodies. Every little bit helps.

I'm not saying the records should be available to the public on demand, mind you, but I don't see that harm in allowing a researcher to verify and inspect aspects of their densho.

Anyway, in regards to the term "kirigami", this was apparently in reference originally to a certificate that has a corner torn off of it, to be retained by the issuing party for future authentication if needed. Kind of like how a hanko is used now as a "wari-in" to register a certificate or document, a kirigami was a more crude way of registering a certificate.

I don't know that the practice of tearing the paper is still done literally, but many styles have retained this term. The level of transmission in which this is awarded seems to vary alot between ryu-ha.

Even Shinkendo uses this term in our ranking structure.

Regards,

[Earl Hartman]

Guy, et al:

I want to preface my remarks by stating right away that I am by no means an expert on transmission in MJER, although I have looked into it a little bit due to what appeared to me to be a strange lack of general knowledge of the career of my late MJER teacher, Masaoka Sensei.

That being said, I do not know of any scroll of transmission in MJER known as the "Tora no Maki" (the "Tiger Scroll", I presume). I am not familiar with any of the interim licenses in MJER, so perhaps such a scroll exists.

All I can say is that according to Masaoka Sensei`s book, and based upon a telephone conversation with Noda Toru Sensei, Masaoka Sensei`s senior disciple, the equivalent of menkyo kaiden in MJER is the "Kongen no Maki", the "Scroll of Origins" (Guy, perhaps this is the scroll to which you were referring). It is my understanding from Noda Sensei that this is the highest rank possible to achive in MJER and that the posession of the Kongen no Maki indicates that the holder is entitled to confer the Kongen no Maki on others (that is, he has the power of promotion to rank), thus continuing the lineage. It is my understanding that this means, in effect, that any holder of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately be considered the inheritor of the entire tradition. Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

Hope this helps. I am sure that Hyakutake san could give us more information on this, at least as far as it relates to MJER.

Earl

[hyaku]

It is my understanding from Noda Sensei that this is the highest rank possible to achive in MJER and that the posession of the Kongen no Maki indicates that the holder is entitled to confer the Kongen no Maki on others (that is, he has the power of promotion to rank), thus continuing the lineage. It is my understanding that this means, in effect, that any holder of the Kongen no Maki can legitimately be considered the inheritor of the entire tradition. Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

Hope this helps. I am sure that Hyakutake san could give us more information on this, at least as far as it relates to MJER.

Earl
............

Hello Earl
Iwata Sensei and Terao Sensei (Iwata sensei's student) tell me the same as you say, that only three people received Kongen no Maki. There is a picture of Shigeki Sensei's on my site.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword

I am not sure about Kongen no Maki being conferred on other inheritors of the tradition. As I understand Kongen no maki is MJER's name for Menkyo Kaiden. Iwata sensei received two being the inheritor and student of two of Oe Sensei's students.

Conveniently the only person to receive this from Iwata Sensei, Terao Yoshiteru sensei lives about 5 minutes from here. I will ask him next time I see him.

Regards Colin (Hyaku)

[Joanne Miller]

Hello all,
It's kind of side track from the MJER issue but since we are on the thread of MJER sucessions I was wondering if anyone is aware of an equivalent system of Makimono (If any) used in Muso Shinden Ryu and if the highest license issued in Muso Shinden Ryu is Menkyo Kaiden? ( I haven't heard of the Kongen no Maki used in Muso Shinden Ryu before and so was thinking it was soley unique to MJER)

Just curious does MJER practice in parts or in full anything similar to the "I Kumi tachi no kurai" sets as done by Danzaki sensei of Muso Shinden Ryu ? (i.e Daisho Kyo , Daisho Tachizume , Kuraidori, e.t.c) If so does anyone know if the waza share the same names?

Very interesting stuff in this thread so far

Cheers,

[ghp]

Earl,

"Kongen no Maki", the "Scroll of Origins" (Guy, perhaps this is the scroll to which you were referring).

You Sir, are correct, Sir. Just chalk it up to my dotage. I don't know how I replaced "Kongen" with "Tora" in my feeble mind ... but I did. Thank you for straightening me out.

Humbly,
Guy

[ghp]

Earl and Colin,

Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.

On the inside cover of Mitani sensei's Shoukai Iai: Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is a photograph of his scroll, signed by Yamamoto Takuji. Might this scroll also be Kongen no Maki?

Regards,
Guy

[Robert Reinberger]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman

Masaoka Sensei received the Kongen no Maki from Oe Masamichi Sensei, who apparently conferred it upon between 3-6 men (the three I know of are Hokiyama Namio S., Mori Shigeki S., and Masaoka S.)

Originally posted by hyaku

Iwata Sensei and Terao Sensei (Iwata sensei's student) tell me the same as you say, that only three people received Kongen no Maki.


On the site of Austrian practioners of Sekiguchi-ha, the lineage after Oe Sensei is given as:


18. Yamanouchi Toyokata
19. Kono Kanemitsu
20. Onoe Masayoshi
21. Sekiguchi Takaaki (Komei)

This might be of some interest, considering an information that was posted before the crash, regarding Sekiguchi Senseis recognition as MJER Soke by an esteemed Japanese Koryu society (I don't remember which one it was).

BTW, Sekiguchi Sensei will be teaching in Austria on September 23rd and 24th.

However, I now have some questions:

Does anybody have informations about Yamanouchi Toyokata?

Does anybody know if Kono Kanemitsu (Juku Dai of Sekiguchi ha) was identical or related with Kono Hyakuren, Niju Dai of Fukui Sensei's line?

Unfortunately Fukui Torao Sensei has passed away this year. Does anybody know if Ikeda Takashi Sensei has succeeded him as Soke of this line (Ikeda Sensei was described as Fukui Sensei's appointed successor, as far as I know). Are there any discussions about that?

I apologize for addressing the branch line of MJER succession instead of the main topic of this thread, but I thought it's kind of fitting in here.

Best regards,
Robert

[Earl Hartman]

Joanne:

In his book, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai Heiho Chi no Maki, Masaoka Sensei demonstrates all of the paired kata of MJER. There are a total of 48 of them. I don`t have the book in front of me, so I can`t remember exactly how the sets are divided up, but the ones I remember are: Tachiuchi no Kurai(standing), Tsumeai no kurai, (seated), Daishozume (daito vs. shoto) and Daikendori. I can check later.

Anyway, it seems from what I can tell that Muso Shinden Ryu is, essentially, Shimomura-ha MJER as taught by Nakayama Hakudo, so it is not at all surprising if the same paired kata are part of the MSR curriculum.

These paired kata are still practiced by Noda Sensei and his students in Kochi City in Shikoku (the original home of MJER) so far as I know. I assume that they are taught in some form in the other MJER lines carried on by the other Kongen no Maki holders that studied with Oe Masamichi Sensei. I know that the Jikishinkai under Miura S. includes at least the 10 Tachiuchi no Kurai in its curriculum.

As a side note, I am under the impression from Masaoka Sensei`s book that the Tachiuchi no Kurai were either formulated by Oe S. himself or were reconfigured by Oe S. when he rearranged and rationalized ther MJER curriculum.

Again, I defer to Hyakutake san on this issue and would be very interested in hearing any more information about this.

Earl

[Earl Hartman]

Hyakutake san:

Thanks for the information regarding Oe Sensei`s Kongen no Maki recipients. I look forward to any other information you can supply regarding the transmission of MJER.

Earl

[Joanne Miller]

Hi Earl,

Thanks for the info regarding the paired kata of MJER. Actually I share the same view that Muso Shinden Ryu is essentially Shimomura Ha Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu as well.

I have a feeling the name of the set found in Muso Shinden Ryu paired kata could be the same as those taught in MJER.
Danzaki sensei seem to list the names of the sets as Tachida no Kurai, Kuraidori,Daisho tachizume , Daisho Kyo , Tsumeiai no Kurai & Tsume no kurai. Maybe these names tally with the sets in Masaoka Sensei's book ?


By the way has anyone heard that there was a tori-nawa(arresting with cord) component in MJER or others?

Cheers,

[pboylan]

MEJR is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as possessing Nawatori and other things. But there isn't a lot of explanation. I've got a copy of an article from a Japanese journal that I'm working on reading that delves into the history and practice of MJER, but it's slow going with my kanji skills. My suspicion is that since it was primarily a country peasant art, over the course of it's history, a lot of different weapons probably came and went from the syllabus.

Peter Boylan

[hyaku]

Hello all,

Wow, lots of questions. I have put the answers to this and other threads here.

The first Kongen no Maki was awarded by Hayashizaki Jinsuke. After him there is no clear record of who awarded what to who until after the Kyudai (Ninth head) Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa. After him it is very clear who has received what.

Menkyo Kaiden received within Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu to this day are known as Kongen no Maki.

Oe Sensei formulated the Bangai Nobu.

It is not known who formulated the Tachiuchi no Kurai as in this case the records don't go back as far as the Waza. All that is really certain is that it originated from the Shimomura-ha. I do have a video somewhere from when it was reintroduced to Japan some 17 years ago as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu

Oe Sensei awarded a number a Kongen no Maki. However the wording in some of them is described as "ayashii" (dubious)
I am told that the only official ones he awarded were to Hokiyama Namio and Mori Shigeki.

The present successor of Fukui Torao Sensei is indeed Ikeda Sensei.

Don't want to get involved in Japanese Iai politics. This information is confirmed by a Menkyo Kaiden of the Ryu. Perhaps what is more important is who is continuing the Oe Masamichi tradition and practices in his name rather than who has the paperwork. A lot of "Ha" seem to come and go. For example Oe Sensei left the Shimomura ha leaderless in becoming the head of Tanimura. But it still continues today. Politics, politics!

On a lighter note I have discoverd that Miyamoto Musashi had probably been neutered. If I have to do anymore practice with my feet so close together I am sure to do myself a serious injury!

Hyakutake Colin

[Robert Reinberger]

hyaku,

thank you very much for the informations.

However - and without wanting to be involved in the politics myself, but only for personal reasons - I'm still interested in learning how Sekiguchi-ha is viewed (in terms of reputation, authenticity and legitimacy) in the Japanese Iai world outside of Komei Juku.

If anybody is willing to share his insights regarding that, I would also appreciate a personal mail, and of course offer to handle the answer discreet.

Thanks again,

yours sincerely,
Robert

[Edited by Robert Reinberger on 09-15-2000 at 10:40 AM]

[Earl Hartman]

Dear Hyakutake san:

Thank you for your reply on the subject of the Kongen no Maki.

I also have no particular intetrest in getting involved in iai politics, and although I appreciate your information, it rasies a number of troubling questions. Unfortunately, it seems that if you do iai with a particular teacher you are involved in the politics whether you want to be or not.

I have a number of questions, and while I realize they touch on extremely sensitive subjects, I ask them with all respect. I realize that these sorts of questions are not usually asked in Japan, but while I know that no satisfactory answer can be given, at least from my personal perspective, I feel compelled to ask them anyway. At the same time, you need not feel compelled to reply if you feel that it is inappropriate.

The only conclusion that can be drawn from your information is that, at the very least, the person from whom you received your information is of the opinion that the Kongen no Maki that Oe Sensei awarded to Masaoka Sensei is somehow illegitimate, or, as you say "ayashii" (suspicious/dubious).

This brings up a number of other questions, to wit:

1) Why would Oe Sensei award a Kongen no Maki to someone who did not deserve it?

2) By ayashii, is it meant that the scroll has been somehow falsified? If so, who falsified it and why?

3) If the scroll has not been falsified, but is simply incomplete, what would be the reason for this? What purpose could be served by awarding an incomplete scroll? What would Oe Sensei`s motivation have been, especially since other complete scrolls had been awarded to two other senseis, thus assuring the continuation of the school?

4) If Masaoka Sensei`s scroll was not "official", this indicates that there is some other criteria, other than the Kongen no Maki itself, that determines which Kongen no Maki were official and which were not. May I ask what these criteria might be?

These questions are, in some way, rhetorical. As I said, you do not need to answer them if you do not want to. I have done some research on Masaoka Sensei`s life, and it appears that there was a falling out between him and the other direct disciples of Oe Sensei, which seemed to have something to do with the fact that he left Shikoku to attend the Budo Senmon Gakko, and that after the war he was instrumental in forming the iaido department under the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, which appeared to be in competition with the Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei which had been established somewhat earlier, as I understand it. In addition, Masaoka Sensei seems to have had some sort of relationship with Nakayama Hakudo (how close it was I don`t know). According to what I have read, it does seem that some MJER swordsmen who had been associated with the ZNIR left and joined the ZNKR iaido group with Masaoka Sensei shortly after it was formed.

In any case, my efforts in this area are strictly in the service of impartial historical research. Masaoka Sensei was my teacher, and nothing will change that or my feelings about him. I only wanted to get to the truth of the matter.

Again, thank you for your efforts.

Yours,
Earl

[Bufu Ikan]

Hello All,

Interesting discussion, I read some of the post and would like to comment on the subject of viewing Makimono. Dealing with Makimono and Soke'ship is a very delicate matter to the Japanese masters. Unless a person is a long time discpile of a Shihan or a Soke of a Ryu getting answers or viewing certian documents sometime may be close to impossible. Imagine someone who you barely know ask you to show him your bank account info or even on a smaller scale to see your family photos.


Anyhow something to think about,

[pboylan]

Eddie Divantman wrote:

Interesting discussion, I read some of the post and would like to comment on the subject of viewing Makimono. Dealing with Makimono and Soke'ship is a very delicate matter to the
Japanese masters. Unless a person is a long time discpile of a Shihan or a Soke of a Ryu getting answers or viewing certian documents sometime may be close to impossible. Imagine someone who you barely know ask you to show him your bank account info or even on a smaller scale to see your family photos.
***********************

Actually, it's not usually that difficult. If you have good credintials/introductions, it's often quite possible to see all but the most closely held of secrets. Many of these documents regularly get published in books and magazines. The reason for this is that there really isn't very much information in most makimono. The real knowledge can only be gained through training.

Peter Boylan

[Scott Irey]

Robert Reinberger asked if there was any information about Yamanouchi Toyotake. I am by no means a historian on MJER and almost all of my information comes from oral transmission, so take my information for what you feel it is worth. I practice Yamanouchi-ha Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu under Sato Yoshio of Sendai, Japan. In our tradition Yamanouchi sensei is not veiwed as the 18th soke of MJER. He received his kongen no maki from Oe Masamichi. This made Yamanoudhi sensei on of several 18th generation inheritors of the style. Now my understanding is that upwards of 10 students of Oe Masamichi recieved kongen no maki but only Hogiyama Namio was designated as the formal successor of the lineage. However in the Yamanouchi-ha there is still discussion as to whether or not Oe sensei ever really intended for their to be a single successor to the style, but for the most part the Shisui-kai (the political body of the Yamanouchi-ha) regards Hogiyama Namio and not Yamanouchi Toyotake as the 19th Soke of MJER. I am taught that regardless of political position, a holder of kongen no maki is an inheritor of the style and does have the right to award kongen no maki to his/her own students. Judging by the information that Collin and Earl have posted this seems to be the concensous of the various lineages of MJER out there today. Yamanouchi sensei had many students and awarded Kongen no maki to some of them. I would have to ask Sato sensei the names of the other recipiants in Yamanuchi sensei's dojo that recieved Kongen no maki. In our heritage Yamanouchi Toyotake is followed by Sakagami Kaneo then by Uno Mataji followed by Kawakubo Takaji and finally Sato Yoshio. There are of course several other recipiants of kongen no maki through out the Yamanouchi ha history and I would assume that Sekiguchi Takaaki's line falls in here as the Shisui-kai has a formal relationship with the Komei-kai. I hope that was at least a little bit of the information on Yamanouchi Toyotake that you were looking for.

Regards,

[hyaku]

Very sorry Mr Hartman

I didn't know you had posted a message with regard to you're Sensei's certification. I like you try to keep out of the politics. I can see there are problems in the west but over here they are if anything more worse. I do know one teacher who plagued his teacher for a menkyo kaiden and in not receiving it has now joined the Sekiguchi Ryu. A lot of people who opted for the ZNKR Seitei Iai system some years ago jumped up a few dan grades.

I have also met some self proclaimed Soke here too, who don't even practice but take the title as they consider it a family right as there father was a eacher of a particular school etc etc

The list is endless and I suppose this has beeen going on for years and years. Hence the unanswered questions of who does what and where it comes from. I jokingly mention it to a well know Iai teacher. He said "Please don't expect too much. We are all humans". I nice comment from one of a race of people that usually uniquely think they "are unique".

I should heve been more precise in my last post. It seems the wording on the what seems to be numerous certificates issued by Oe Sensei are different. What this wording is I don't know and I suppose no one else will ever do so unless they could get there hands on a few scrolls issued by him and get an expert to translate them.

Again my apologies. I would not want to be the instigator a political feud. I was just trying to be helpful in passing on information from a Menkyo Kaiden of the Ryu.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

[Edited by hyaku on 09-29-2000 at 05:56 AM]

[Jack B]

Is Uno Mataji the same person as Onoe Masayoshi? Some of these names are close enough to make me wonder if they are readings of the same kanji.

Lineage 1 (Sekiguchi-ha MJER):
Yamanouchi Toyotaka 18th
Kono Kanemitsu 19th
Onoe Masayoshi 20th
Sekiguchi (Komei) Takaaki 21st

Lineage 2 (Yamanouchi-ha MJER):
Yamanouchi Toyotaka 18th
Sakagami Kaneo 19th
Uno Mataji 20th
Kawakubo Takaji 21st
Sato Yoshio 22nd (Shisui-kai)

I believe Ohmori Masao (Rakuto Eishin Ryu) was also a student of Uno Mataji.

Thanks,
Jack Bieler

[Robert Reinberger]

Mr. Irey,

thank you very much for the informations you gave.

Also thanks to the other posters, a lot of interesting contributions here!

Regards,

Robert

[Scott Irey]

Just to make things clear if I did not previously do so, the Yamanouchi ha does not cosider Yamanouchi Toyotake to be the 18th soke of MJER. Sato Yoshio to the best of my knowledge does recognise Hogiyam Namio's line as the legitimate line of soke in MJER. All of the teachers I listed in our lineage are recipiants of Kongen no maki and none considered themselves soke. Some in the Yamanouchi ha do not recognise any soke after Oe Masamichi, but none to my knowledge make any cclaims to any of the line being soke. Uno Mataji and Onoe Masayoshi are not the same person. Uno sensei awarded 2 Kongen no maki that I am aware of one went to Yamakoshi sensei of Kyoto (whom I believe is still teaching in Kyoto and last time I visited his dojo he had 2 students practicing MJER with nodachi...quite a site to see) and the other went to Kawakubo Takaiji of Sendai. Kawakubo sensei awarded Kongen no maki to Sato Yoshio and Sato Masaki (no relation). Yamakoshi sensei has awarded Kongen no maki to Takahashi Tsunoru. Takahashi sensei teaches with Sato Yoshio and Sato Masaki in Sendai. I hope there is no confusion on the stance of the Yamanouchi ha in regards to soke of the MJER.

[Earl Hartman]

This has turned into a wide ranging discussion.

MSR vs. MJER

According to Masaoka S., in the hidensho (secret scrolls) of the 9th headmaster, Hayashi Rokudaiu Morimasa S. (d. 1732) the name of the school is given as Muso (Peerless) Jikiden. The Shinden Ryu scrolls were created by the 2nd generation leader of the Shimomura-ha, Yamakawa Kyuzo Yukio S.(d. 1848), and a Shinden Ryu "hissho" (secret scroll) apparently gives the name of the school as Muso (Peerless) Shinden Eishin Ryu Batto Heiho. Most people in my practice group referred to it simply as Hasegawa Eishin Ryu. In any case, it seems quite obvious that both versions of "Muso" ("Peerless" and "Dream Thought") predate both Oe S. and Nakayama S. and obviously refer to the same school. It seems quite significant to me that the Shinden Ryu scrolls were created by the Shimomura-ha, so it appears that Nakayama S. thus had a valid historcal reason for choosing that name. This also pretty much seals the case that MSR is MJER Shimomura-ha, in my opinion.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists Nakayama S. as the 18th headmaster of the MSR, indicating that there was/is an opinion that the MSR is the continuation of an older school. If one accepts that MSR is MJER Shimomura-ha under a different name, this makes sense. In any case, Nakayama S. learned Shimomura-ha from Hosokawa Yoshiaki S. (d. 1923), the 15th generation of Shimomura-ha (15th generation in this case means 15th generation from Hayashizaki. I'm not sure how many generations he is after the split, probably four). Nakayama had approached Yukimune Sadayoshi S. (Shimomura-ha) and Oe S. for instruction but had been rebuffed since he was not from Tosa. Masaoka S. also shows Nakayama S. receiving instruction from Morimoto Tokumi S. of the Tanimura-ha, who was a contemporary of Oe S., both of whom learned from Goto Masakatsu S., the 16th generation headmaster.

Official Headmaster vs. Kongen no Maki

Masaoka S. never claimed to be the "official" 18th generation headmaster of MJER, and my purpose in researching this issue has never been to try to put such a claim forward. Regarding the Kongen no Maki, there is a world of difference between saying that the wording in the Kongen no Maki that Oe S. awarded to him was "ayashii" (dubious/suspicious) and saying that the various Kongen no Maki scrolls simply had "different" wording. I appreciate the input from the other iai practitioners who have provided more information regarding other Kongen no Maki awarded by Oe S. Oe S. spent his life making sure that his iai would live on in the post-Tokugawa world, which would probably account for the number of Kongen no Maki that he awarded.

As far as I can tell from my research, there were some who believed that Masaoka S.'s iai was not pure MJER due to his relationship with Nakayama S. Nakayama S. was from Ishikawa Prefecture, and Masaoka S. lived in Kanazawa, the capital of the prefecture, for many years after his graduation from the Budo Senmon Gakko in Kyoto, and then returned there later after spending the post-war years back on Shikoku. It is probable that Masaoka S.'s iai was influenced to some degree by Nakayama S.'s interpretation of the Shimomura-ha iai that he had learned. However, from Masaoka S.'s point of view, all he was doing was researching the other branch of his own school.

Earl

[Edited by Earl Hartman on 10-02-2000 at 04:10 PM]