tate hiza- iaigoshi

[ulvulv]

As I have understood, iaigoshi was originaly both a outdoor sitting position, and an indoor sitting position, when you had not been invited to sit, but crouched down to deliver a message or whatever.
What about tate-hiza, what is the background, or setting, that the position originally was a part of? For most people, it is the hardest position to get used to. I had an introductory practise on tskr-iaijutsu many years ago, and found iaigoshi more easy to react from than tatehiza as I know it from msr.
There must be some historical background for using tatehiza and not iaigoshi??

[Chiburi]

All I know that I can't even sit in tatehiza, yet again do a kata from it! I realized that yesterday, once again. :( I remember being told why tatehiza was used, but I can't remember what exactly it was. The one that comes to mind is that it's the only position in which you can sit with yoroi and get up fast. But this might be wrong, though. Luckily I've never had to find out wearing one! :)

Cheers,

[A. Bakken]

Shimabukuro and Pellman writes in <i>Flashing Steel</i> (p. 99) that
Unlike <i>seiza</i>, <i>tatehiza</i> did not originate as a formal sitting position, but was the posture taken by <i>samurai</i> while relaxing. When you first experience the discomfort of <i>tatehiza</i>, you will find it difficult to imagine it as a way of resting. It is likely, however, that <i>tatehiza</i> was one of the few comfortable positions a <i>samurai</i> could assume while dressed in <i>yoroi</i>, the pleated bamboo battle armor, which may account for its common usage.

[Andy Watson]

While I think the Shimabukuro/Pellman article is an interesting one, I'm not sure that tatehiza was ever used by the feudal samurai. From what I can glean from Japanese authors and people such as Donn Draeger, the armored samurai would sit in iaigoshi.

I doupt there would be a need for him to sit for long periods and certainly wouldn't want to sit in tatehiza for long periods if it would compromise his ability to walk for a certain period.

What I would think is more likely is during the development and evolution of iaido through it's many masters, tatehiza was developed to resemble iaigoshi but still contain the statics found in seiza. The developers of iaido seem to have introduced aspects into the katas which would make initiation of the kata as tricky as possible (that was a wry remark before everyone gets on the defensive) so it comes as no surprise that MSR and MJER is scattered with tatehiza katas.

[ulvulv]

"What I would think is more likely is during the development and evolution of iaido through it's many masters, tatehiza was developed to resemble iaigoshi but still contain the statics found in seiza. The developers of iaido seem to have introduced aspects into the katas which would make initiation of the kata as tricky as possible (that was a wry remark before everyone gets on the defensive) so it comes as no surprise that MSR and MJER is scattered with tatehiza katas."

There must be more to tate-hiza than just being a didactic tool to torture the iaidokas who make an effort to learn koryu. is it only a bastardized and more "modern" version of iaigoshi? Chuden with iaigoshi in stead of tatehiza as the starting position would be quite fun.

I am quite comfortable with it now, but it took several years, and I still dont watch Bollywood-movies from tate-hiza.:D

"How was the movie, Sandeep?"" Beery Boring, only three hours, and no dancing !";)

[Rennis]

I unfortunately can't find the reference for this anywhere right now, but my research on this showed that tatehiza was basically the normal sitting style before the use of tatami became normal. Seiza wasn't really used much, if at all, until the popularization of a- tatami and b- the popularization of the tea ceremony (with all the changes in style, architecture, etc that it brought) and previous to the spread of these, tatehiza was supposedly used pretty much by everyone. Previous to this, people just had these little straw mats they would carry around and sit on that were much thinner and seiza would be very uncomfortable on these for obvious reasons.

As a side note, as I understand it, as tatami use spread (we are talking late Muromachi period if I remember correctly), there also came a shift in clothing style which made most kimono much tighter on the body which would make tatehiza a less usable posture since your legs would be sticking out of your kimono. Prior to this, even women suposedly sat in tatehiza as well. This might sound strange to people used to the MSR/MJER style tatehiza, however I've found that that particular style of tatehiza isn't terribly common. The more common type I have seen is with you sitting with the knee straight up and your fight foot flat on the floor. This is much more comfortable and would also be alot less unseemly for a woman to sit in when wearing the older style layers upon layers of loose kimono (several martial ryuha also maintain this style of sitting as well). Obviously as kimono became tighter, this pretty much elminated tatehiza's usage among woman. Anyways, according to what I found, tatehiza was simply just how people sat on non-tatami surfaces prior to the Edo period. If this is indeed correct (and it jells with everything else I have learned in school pretty well) it would readily explain why it is used in various martial ryuha as well.

Now if I can just find the reference for this, I've been trying to find it for months....

Rennis Buchner

[gmellis]

Rennis,
Tatehiza was the standard sitting position before seiza came into fashion? One would think that agura would have been the most common and comfortable position for people to sit in without chairs (and the one with the longest history among humans, especially in Asia). If you find that reference about its history, post it on e-budo for us Japan-bound folk to snoop around the libraries and Kanda haunts (must remind self to get life). Cheers!
Greg

[Ellis Amdur]

Greg -

Actually, the simple squat was the earliest way of sitting in East Asia (probably elsewhere too). In fact, I remember that there was an recon. photo of a group of men in a jungle clearing sitting cross-legged that was cited as evidence that there were American POW's still held in Vietnam or Laos. The squat keeps every part of the body, except for the feet off the ground, but as we all know, if you haven't done it since childhood, ankles and knees are too stiff for it to be comfortable.

On another note, I believe that a form of tate-hiza is still the form of sitting for Korean women, when wearing the formal very full kimono/skirt - one foot tucked under, one foot flat on the floor.

Best

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

[Rennis]

Originally posted by gmellis
Rennis,
Tatehiza was the standard sitting position before seiza came into fashion? One would think that agura would have been the most common and comfortable position for people to sit in without chairs (and the one with the longest history among humans, especially in Asia). If you find that reference about its history, post it on e-budo for us Japan-bound folk to snoop around the libraries and Kanda haunts (must remind self to get life). Cheers!
Greg

Now that I look it at it I wasn't clear enough. Obviously agura is the "natural" sitting position. Even after seiza came into popularity you can be sure agura was still the norm among the common folk, informal situations and such. The bit about tatehiza refers to more "formalized" (for lack of a better word) type sitting situations among members of the higher classes (i.e. court types, high ranking warriors [i.e. throw away former members of the court] and people of such similar ilk). You can be sure I will post the reference when I find it as the fact that I lost it has been driving me nuts for a long time now. I do know that is was in a history book of some sort and this information was used as a sort of introduction into the history of seiza and its effects on Japanese culture into the Edo period, etc etc.....

Rennis

[gmellis]

Ellis-
Good point about squatting. I guess to us modern folk, squatting for long hours would seem unbearable, but to people used to it, it must be comfortable. As for sightings, I see young tribes from the juku-rat clan squatting in their circles babbling in their primitive, incomprehensible mummering languages all the time on the trains and platforms here in Shinjuku all the time. Maybe I should take some photos and send them into National Geographic? By the way, do you get to Tokyo anymore these days? Some Katori mates and I wouldn't mind buying you some grub and du'rink (get you away from that "gruel" for a while (reference to other different thread)) in exchange for some koryu banter, tapping your brain...oh, and you have to reveal to us the ultra-secret, super-deadly Araki-Ryu Black Dragon Death Touch. Oh, and good point about Korean women. It didn't even occur to me till you had mentioned it. I wonder how far back that tradition of sitting in Korea goes? Any Korean scholars around?

Rennis-
Ahhhhhh! Now I gotcha. I know how it feels to have read something and then been unable to find it again. I've been thinking of using a more intensive form of reading lately and creating additional indexes to books for key quotes or facts in certain books. May be too labor-intensive though.

[Ellis Amdur]

Greg -

Hold that thought (re grub) Life has been pretty hectic for a while, but I'm hoping in the next couple of years to simply grab some weeks and return to Japan again.

Ellis

[ulvulv]

Maybe iaigoshi was formed because it is hard for a samurai to do a squat, without squeezing the tsuka between the knees and the stomach? If you lower the right knee to the ground, you make nice room for the tsukas. Just guesswork, I guess iaigoshi/tate hiza was a sitting position not only for swordbearing bushi.

If I look for a piece of information in a book, i usually find it in the last book in the shelf. The same goes for finding a missing or mislaid cd. it is alway the last you pick. I have solved it by looking in the last book first;) In my next life, i will be the chief librarian in Alexandria.:D

[Ron Tisdale]

Make sure you install fire detectors...

RT :)