Dojo Conventions (Iai)

[DCPan]

Questions!

1. Do you have the policy of not cutting toward each other during iai practice (i.e. not cutting while someone is directly in the line directly in front of you, but out of range).

2. Do you have the policy of not cutting toward shomen? If so, do you not cut toward the actual kamiza, or is not cutting toward shomen defined as not cutting squarely toward the wall that represents shomen?

Thanks!

:D

[renfield_kuroda]

No and no. We generally try to not line up single file because it makes it harder for the instructor to see everyone, and also because your eyes tend to focus on the person in front of you. For general safety we spread out as much as possible, often staggering if in rows.
Some techniques are specifically meant to be done directly facing shomen, others at different angles. Actually, we generally try to avoid turning our back to shomen: all of the kata when turned around face back at an angle, not back 180 degrees. Sometimes during practice though we'll do things facing back directly, so that the instructors can see and so that we can check angles (make sure we're cutting 180 degrees behind, etc.)
Practice is more focused on making the most of our time, so often we worry more about the techniques than the protocols of etiquette, and thus will face whichever direction gives the instructors the best viewing angle, etc. However when officially demonstrating/performing/competing, proper protocol and proper technique are both required.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[DCPan]

Hi Ren,

I suspected as much.

Another question. I've heard a reason given for not cutting toward each other (i.e. line up facing each other for practice in a long narrow dojo) because of avoiding accidents in the event that the blade or menuki breaks.

Have you heard that before?

Are there other reasons for avoiding having someone in the direction of your cutting plane when they are clearly out of reach?

Thanks!

David

[Earl Hartman]

Menuki? You mean mekugi, right?

[socho]

David,
different strokes for different, um, styles. The aikido guys are sensitive as to what direction you face when practicing. I am curious as to what other groups emphasize this. If your sword is about spiritual development, or harmony, or something similar, then it is unnecessary and probably rude to cut towards someone. On the other hand, if you are looking for the mechanics of a stroke that will cut a person, it just makes sense to have someone in front of you occasionally so you can see what kesa looks like, or gyaku kesa, or suihei, or tsuki, IMO. I don't suggest you do this without the knowledge and permission of your instructor and training partners. Distance is certainly a factor, but that is something that needs to be learned anyway, for at least kumitachi or tameshigiri. Mekugi should be checked before practice no matter what direction you are facing. On the flip side, it makes it easier to judge someone's seme', body position, follow through, etc., if they are cutting towards you or in a kamae threatening you.

Renfield,
I am extremely disappointed at not being able to come to your two tai kai. I hope that these are both a great success and that perhaps you will visit the East Coast next time.
Regards,
Dave

[Chidokan]

I always get my students to stagger rows, purely because there are a lot of beginners and there is no guarantee that they will 'look before you cut'. Its a pure safety thing for me... and I prefer to keep my students in one piece...:D
Most of the waza I teach(MJER)are towards the front, if you are stood in front of kamiza, you cut towards kamiza.

Tim Hamilton

[hyaku]

I'm with Chidokan on the safety aspect. With me I need "space". Preferably when there is no one else in the dojo.

The only time I cut and not face direct front is at shrines. Do some of you guys practice in Shrines? Most people practice using Shimoza, Shinza and Kamiza. Bow to the center one and then take one side.

Hyakutake Colin

[Charles Mahan]

We have a general policy of staggering students also. It's just safer that way, and you don't have to worry so much about the speed of the guy in front of you. There is also a generaly accepted policy of slowing a cut if there is someone directly in front of you for safety's sake. This is pretty rare however. And like Dave said, the mekugi should be checked at the beginning of every class. I have a tendency to check mine occasionally during class as well.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Earl Hartman
Menuki? You mean mekugi, right?

Yeah! :D Mekugi...you can tell I "really" check mine huh? :D

Originally posted by socho
I am curious as to what other groups emphasize this. If your sword is about spiritual development, or harmony, or something similar, then it is unnecessary and probably rude to cut towards someone.

Oh, my question started due to simple logistics. I practiced with some folks that trained in a long narrow dojo where the shomen is along one of the longer walls.

Between not being able to cut with the shomen or each other, an inordinate amount of time is spent on readjusting the group formation rather than "training". I simply found it frustrating.

With seitei having cuts in all 8 directions between the various kata, what should one do? Turn 22.5 degrees off center so you won't have to cut toward shomen without readjusting your starting position through the 12 katas?

In my mind, I see two possible reasons for avoid cutting toward shomen/kamiza and toward each other.

In terms of safety though, I rather have someone cut toward me so I can avoid if someone does break and come at me then have a flying blade blind-side me.

In terms of etiquette, I would observe it during demo, but frankly, like Ren said, I'd focus on other stuff in a group training situation and bow to the logistics of actual space available rather then blindly adhere to these etiquette to the point where training is constantly interrupted because "oops, I'm facing shomen or each other again, darn it...."

:D

[Charles Mahan]

We do cut towards shomen. Shomen and shinzen are on different walls of the dojo. Of course we have cuts that are aimed at the wall with the shinzen, but I've never heard of a reason to not cut towards it.

[Jack B]

In fact at the end of practice we intentionally peform Ipponme Mae towards shomen as an offering of our practice. We do not do our usual practice facing shomen, but that is mostly because of the shape of our dojo. In Japan the classes pretty much all faced shomen for practice as well as reiho.

We were counseled by sensei once on a visit that we should observe waza from directly in front, because if you are off to one side you cannot see the angle of the kata correctly.

[hyaku]

I suppose a lot of it boils down to dojo management as to where your kamiza, shinza is. I know lots of people use rented facilities and really can't move doors and walls about to suit. Do some teachers still let students in with blades that will snap? I hope not. If that happens i would hope to find another dojo to go to. I would have said you have more chance of cutting yourself than others.

One place I go every year sets up gradings with tables to the right of a Kamidana. It really leaves one little choice as to where one cuts. But I find a lot of the body avoiding cuts to be very useful. One can start by facing shinza but complete the cuts at an angle.

From a point of view of daily practice if one staggers the students and sets up seniors at a distance on the opposite side it leaves one free to find a safe place and observe.

In kenjutsu when doing individual practice the teacher stands directly opposite but at a distance to provide a visible target.

However if he is close cutting direct is an absolute no no.

It really does bring up the point that in more modern arts its a very straight on attack. In theory both people would be injured if they were opposite and close.

Hyakutake Colin

[renfield_kuroda]

Yup. To sum up: practicality of having a safe, useful practice dictates that, depending on the shape of the dojo, students should be staggered, generally facing the same direction (so that everyone is moving in generally the same way) when doing the same thing, with each student having as much space as possible.

Last night Niina-gosoke ran us through his post-practice-Hour-of-Pain, and he first had us all face left and do the first kata 'shin', then after 20 minutes had us all face shomen (towards him) and do shin for another 20 minutes. Looking from the side he commented on alignment of the hips and shoulders, looking from the front he commented on blade angle of the final, diagonal cut. Note that instead of him moving around us, we faced as we are told and stayed seated in front. Then again he is Soke, so we do what he says!

Anyway, safety is ALWAYS concern #1. Always check your mekugi, even on a mogito. If a sword has too much rattle/play, really make sure it's safe. If there just isn't enough room (too many students, etc.) we will stagger, break into smaller groups, etc. to make sure everyone can practice safely and effectively. If we practice in pairs (to check distance, point of cut, line of site, etc.) we either use bokken or, for a quick demo/point from the instructor, flip the sword around and SLOWLY bring the mune (not the ha) towards the opponent to demonstrate for example cutting angle. We never NEVER *NEVER* cut towards someone (with a shinken or mogito) when there's even the slightest possibility of reaching/cutting them.

Regards,

renfield kuroda

P.S. SochoDave, bummer you can't join our seminars! Stay tuned though we're trying to put together something for the east coast as there seems to be lots of interest in the DC area.

[socho]

Renfield,
Not sure what group(s)in the DC area you are in contact with, but if you do consider coming out this way, I would be happy to help host your group, as far as lodging and training space, and could arrange for mats/stands etc. I know my group would be interested, and there are several sword/kendo groups within a few hours that might support. We could invite the PA and FLA gangs to make it more worth your while. Both Big Tony and Bob Elder have visited, so they could tell(um, warn) you about my guys :) . Email me if you are interested.

Thanks,
Dave

[renfield_kuroda]

Dave, I sent you an email regarding east coast seminars. Hope to set something up soon!

Regards,
renfield kuroda