The position of your foot (toes) while performing a mawashi geri

[Bob van Tuyn]

The position of your foot (toes) while performing mawashi geri

Because I’m not really agile I use a lot of low kicks (mawashi geri gedan) while sparring. Usually when I perform a low kick my foot is flattened “flexed” (like in gin geri) by this I DON’T mean that I hit my opponent with my foot this should of course always be with your shins!! A few weeks ago we had another sensei for our training, and he sad that you should pull up your toes (like in mae geri) when performing a low kick or for that any other mawashi geri. Because when you do this you will harden the muscles near your shins, and thus you will feel less pain when your kick is blocked because it can endure more strain. And your kick will create more damage to your apponent when it hits.

I want to know if this is the proper way (if there is any) to perform mawashi geri (gedan chudan or jodan)

Bob van Tuyn

[gmanry]

Wow,

Bob, that is a tough question, because there really isn't any good objective way to determine that answer (no scientific data on the subject), and an argument can be made for both shin and foot impact and pointing or pulling toes. Both will cause damage to the target given proper usage.

For example, if the kick is one that hits obliquely, using the flat of the shin, there is a good argument for letting the ankle bend to 90 degrees and pulling the toes back. Both for the reasons you site and that it naturally completes the motion of the round kick without antagonistic tension on the calf and hamstring. Ashihara karate sometimes uses this method, and according to your story, so do others.

If the kick hits more acutely, say TKD style, then using the top of the foot is more advisable. It can become like a blade that penetrates the target rather than smashing it. Both are advisable in certain situations. I have used both successfully for their intended purposes.

You certainly don't want to contradict your instructors, particularly if you are in the early stages of training (don't know in your case). However, after discussing this with them, maybe you can experiment with the variations and see what the results are for you. They may be interested in the results as well.

Sorry that is not such a definite answer, but the truth is that nobody has really put these types of questions through any objective test. People will tend to cling to their style's way of doing things and claim that this is objective, but it really isn't. However, if that works for them, then more power to them. I suspect that given the variations on mawashi geri, there is no singular answer.

[Bob van Tuyn]

First I want to thank you for your reply Glenn,

Re:
For example, if the kick is one that hits obliquely, using the flat of the shin, there is a good argument for letting the ankle bend to 90 degrees and pulling the toes back. Both for the reasons you site and that it naturally completes the motion of the round kick without antagonistic tension on the calf and hamstring.

So you’re seeing (like one of my sensai’s) that if you perform a “standard” low kick (Hitting with your shin the upper leg just above the knee joint) you should bent the ankle 90 degrees and pull the toes back.

I will keep this in mind next time I train because I have never done it like that, I have always held my toes in a pointing way (like in gin geri).

Re:
If the kick hits more acutely, say TKD style, then using the top of the foot is more advisable. It can become like a blade that penetrates the target rather than smashing it. Both are advisable in certain situations. I have used both successfully for their intended purposes.

I agree with you, because when we do Tamesi-wara we brake with jodan mawashi geri in this manner. And also in kumite I have seen it been used like in K1 when MIRKO CRO COP used it to hit the liver of BOB SAPP.


So thanks for the reply.

Bob

[gmanry]

I am not necessarily advocating the 90 degree bend in the low kick, but there is some argument for it. I do it sometimes and sometimes not. One reason I find for it is to hook the back of the knee allowing a pull on the leg to disbalance the attacker.

A friend of mine used to use that to devastating effect in setting up for the jodan mawashi geri.

Some people let the foot flop a little, again just completing the motion. In the Ashihara thread you can see the video clips that show the Japanese gentleman doing this. This is typical in Ashihara kicking mechanics, although I have noticed not everyone does it that way.

As always, play with it and see what your body can accomodate. For me all the years of pointing make the 90 degree bend a little awkward sometimes. In the long run don't just take somebody's word for it, unless they have some type of objective data. I don't, just telling you what has worked for me.

And, oh yes, liver and spleen damage are quite possible with the bladed foot. Very nasty stuff to be sure.

Keep up the questions. They make all of us have to think about what we take for granted. Plus it keeps us from talking about belt colors
:rolleyes: :D .

[Jock Armstrong]

Rule of thumb;

1] If you want to do a shin kick, point the toes [and foot] . It will stiffen and strenghthen the ankle.Low to the legs this kick should be a "cutting" kick Muay thai style- no retraction. Trg method- use imact shield held against the outer thigh.

2] If you want to strike a point, pull the toes back and use the ball of the foot as the weapon. This also works well wearing shoes or boots- it projects the hard edge of the sole into the target. Ole Troof nailed the point [no pun intended] about self def- more than likely you'll be wearing something. Trg method- use impact shield

3] If you want to do a snapping type kick [roundhouse] you can use the big toe knuckle , the one that corresponds to the seiken on your hand. It adds penetration to the tech. Its usually aimed at the temple or general face area but can be used on the solar plexus, float ribs etc. Trg method- use focus mitts.

I hope this helps.

[Bob van Tuyn]

RE:
1] If you want to do a shin kick, point the toes [and foot] . It will stiffen and strenghthen the ankle.Low to the legs this kick should be a "cutting" kick Muay thai style- no retraction. Trg method- use imact shield held against the outer thigh.

This tech. is the one we generally use in kumite, a kick with our shins to the femur. You suggest to point the toes (like in gin geri) but are there any advantage to pulling your toes up when performing this kick (your toes are like in mae geri). Someone sad that when you pull up your toes you will strengthening your muscles near your shins making them harder on impact.

Bob van Tuyn

[Jock Armstrong]

Pulling your toes back [low roundhouse would seem , in my experience to have no positive effect at all on the musculature around the shin. It would also cause a tightening of the hamstring and calf which would tend to lock up your kick and slow it down. that can't be good! Tight hams do rip [bad]. Try it if you like- extend your kick with toes back slowly and note the tightness location.

let me know what youthink.

[Bob van Tuyn]

Jock,

You’re mentioned that when you pull back you’re toes when doing a low roundhouse it would only lock up you’re kick and tighten the muscles.

When I tried it in slow-motion I could feel you’re point. You could almost use it as a stretching exercise.

To be honest it felt strange when I first tried it in the dojo. But because a sensai suggested it I thought there might be some truth in it. But I think that I will listen to my body (because it never felt right) and I will do it the way I always have done it.

Thanks for you’re thoughts on this
:smilejapa

[tamashi]

Bob:

This is a good question.

I am like Glenn, and hitorically point my toes.
always have and probably always will.

But, i have been introduced to the bent ankle
approach, and it too has its merits.
if you just sit and pull up the foot
you will feel the muscle contract on the outside
of the shin bone (not sure the name of the muscle).
so yes, that may lessen the impact on your bone.

many people in Kyokushin and all its derivatives
do kick in the way you have recently been exposed to.

Experiement with both and see what works for you.
:)
People who do the nonpointing way do not seem to
be slowed down for some reason.
Osu

[Hans Bachmann]

How do you point your toes while doing a shin block? I have seen it both pointed and straight down.

Hans Bachmann

[tamashi]

i point them down.
many people do the opposite though.

guess it is like the position for the kick
:-)