Sword and grappling

[Charlie Kondek]

Hi, all. Me and some of the judo folk are having a disussion on sword work and grappling. I was hoping to entice any of you folk that have any knowledge of the two over to the judo forum to contribute. There's some technical questions on the table, but also some questions addressing classical jujutsu and swordsmanship. Earl Hartman, your name was dropped, but I'd love it if anybody with any insights could drop by. The URL:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=198222#post198222

[Jock Armstrong]

Daito ryu and TSKSR have some moves ; unarmed against sword, and also what to do if someone tries to pin your sword arm. I've seen the Daito ryu stuff in the annual Aikikai demos. These are available on video but beats me where.

good luck

[James Williams]

This relationship between sword and grappling is the subject of my workshop at the Aiki Expo. You can check ou the link here http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/editor.asp?id=400

Regards,

James

[Jock Armstrong]

I wish I could get to that James.

[James Williams]

Jock,

Where in Japan are you located? I will be there in November for sure and possibly in July.

James

[kenanderson]

I've seen some grappling in this manner from the kukishin ryu.

[renfield_kuroda]

Wouldn't entirely call it 'grappling', but in the Mugairyu Iaihyodo wakizashi kumitachi, most of the kata end with an elbow or wrist grab. Now, since most of us learning the kata are lame, we suffice with just grabbing uchidachi's arm, but as Niina-gosoke demonstrated, these are really aikido-like immobilizations, capable of being used to throw/pin/unbalance uchidachi if he gets uppity.

James, when/where will you be in Japan in November? Would love to see what you're up to!

Regards,
r e n

[A. M. Jauregui]

Suio Ryu (so I hear) and Ono-Ha Itto Ryu have a bit of grappling. Hope that helps Charlie.

[Steve Delaney]

The line of Araki ryu that I train in also has a few grappling techniques in the kumiiai and kenjutsu syllabus.

Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu have a few techniques against swordsmen, both armed and unarmed.

[Charlie Kondek]

Haha! This is helpful, my friends, but I was kinda hoping you'd all go over to the judo forum and throw some comments in!

[Chidokan]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Haha! This is helpful, my friends, but I was kinda hoping you'd all go over to the judo forum and throw some comments in!

Throw!! groan:D off we go then...the aiki video I have from late 80's has some good stuff... i.e. try rolling with a sword and full armour... modern aiki guy nearly breaks back...guy in armour does sort of a backflip.

Tim Hamilton

[Bruce Mitchell]

Tendo-ryu has several techniques in which the naginata is dropped or thrown down so that the exponent can draw either their kaiken or tanto when the swordsman gets in to close. Several of these involve grabbing and off balancing the swordsman. There are also a number of kata in the kusarigama set which involve making body to body contact with the swordsman.

To call any of these "grappling" would be a stretch, but there is definetly joint locking and off balancing involved.

[Jock Armstrong]

James, I'm in Aichi ken on the Chita hanto. Its about 30 mins to central Nagoya by car or train. I'll be back in Aussie from JUly 19th till september but would be delighted to meet up if it's possible for you in November. Got some damn nice bars in nagoya! Hopefully get some training in too! My tel no is 0569 72 6102 or keitai 09018220890. Take it easy.:beer:

[Gene Gabel]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Hi, all. Me and some of the judo folk are having a disussion on sword work and grappling. I was hoping to entice any of you folk that have any knowledge of the two over to the judo forum to contribute. There's some technical questions on the table, but also some questions addressing classical jujutsu and swordsmanship. Earl Hartman, your name was dropped, but I'd love it if anybody with any insights could drop by. The URL:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=198222#post198222
...........................................................
I had a seminar with Carl Long Sensei (kudos to West Florida Aikido) a month ago in MJER Iaijutsu. There was some interesting things in that system using techniques where the wrist is grabbed or you are trapped tsuba to tsuba that required some un sword like movements and takedowns.. I guess that is why is is Iaijutsu, instead of Iaido. Sensei Carl reads this board so maybe he can add some insight.

Gene Gabel :smilejapa

[StanLee]

Kashima Shinryu kenjutsu has grappling techniques that involves take downs using the opponent's tsuka and also the use of one's own tsuka end (can't remember the japanese term for that).

Stan

[Steve Delaney]

Tsuka Gashira •¿“ª ;)

[Charles Mahan]

You'd be suprised. There's a lot more jujutsu type stuff buried in the details of MJER kata than many people think. If you don't believe me, get up to Boston and train for awhile under Warren Stanley-sensei. A very interesting take on things. It's a bit of a shame that there are no MJER Jujutsu instructors in this country.

[Ben Bartlett]

If I remember correctly, the book entitled "Shokai Iai Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu" has some really nice examples of this (I'll double check to make certain I am thinking of the right book when I get home). Not as good as a knowledgeable instructor, of course, but it's easier to come by, and gives you some idea of what the techniques look like.

[Chidokan]

Get over to the judo thread NOW...its dying while this ones getting better!!:D
Charles,
do you kae waza as well or just stick to 'basic' ones? There are some interesting variants in there as well, especially for tate hiza no bu...

Tim Hamilton

[Charles Mahan]

I've only seen a few of the kaewaza. I have not really practiced them. They are not part of the curriculum for students at my level of training. Shouldn't be too much longer though as I understand it.

[Earl Hartman]

My name was dropped? Not sure how much I can add, as I don't know any judo, but I can say this based on the experience that I have:

In Kidotai (riot squad police) kendo they used a lot of leg sweeps (in practice, anyway); whether this counts as grappling I'm not sure.

As others have mentioned, the two-man kata of MJER have a number of techniques that include escaping from attempted grabs to the sword or body grabs, IIRC; these involve wrist locks, take-downs, and punches, as I recall. I have no direct experience in these forms, unfortunately.

Many Nagao Ryu Taijutsu techniques involve unarmed defense against a swordsman.

That's really pretty much all I can say.

[Mike B. Johnson]

Hello,

I have a tape showing several sword disarms and such done in the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu that are pretty nice. I believe these are demonstrated by the current headmaster but the tape is in Japanese so iI'm not sure about that.

Also, the Aiki Expo tapes from last year include a demo by Sensei Threadgill of the Takemura ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu doing some very interesting counters by a swordsman against a jujutsuka attempting a disarm. I've never seen anything like this before and Sensei Threadgill's sword drawing is among the smoothest i've ever seen.

Another source of grappling with weapons I've seen is performed in the Bujinkan, however these always seems a little cheesy and theatrical to me. Those black suits don't help much.

Mike

[Arne Oster]

Hi,
I've only seen a few unarmed applications of MJER (and none in my original school, Mugai-ryu). Having learned sword applications of
some of the waza in Hakko Ryu Jujutsu, I'm experimenting a little
with techniques from both directions. Finding interested people is
a major obstacle, though.
Regards
Arne Oster

[kenanderson]

Another source of grappling with weapons I've seen is performed in the Bujinkan, however these always seems a little cheesy and theatrical to me. Those black suits don't help much.

Mr. Johnson,

The difference in Bujinkan dojos is can be quite dramatic. In some dojos, instructors take these concepts and get very cheesy, in others the instructor is very pragmatic in teaching weapon's grappling either directly from the historical kata or based on the principles of those kata. Your mileage may vary depending on the dojo. Hope this clears it up.

-- Ken Anderson

P.S. Those black suits help reduce the blood stains should we screw up in our weapons grappling! ;)

[dirithtai]

Having been thrown by swords, (not to mention the tsuka shots to the midsection and elbows before the actual throw) I can say from personal experience that however cheesey it may look, its dratted effective.

Most sword-grappling is done while the blade is still in the saya, then once the poor blighter is tied up hanbo style, the blade comes out and things get uglah. I imagine this is to protect the blade from being bent, as well as the user from flaying himself in the process.

I have, however, seen it done bare blade, and it changes a lot of the dynamic as most of the throw comes from threat of cut instead of actual pressure.

That's been my experience, anyway.

And don't knock our pajamas... :) :nin: