Comparative Study

[Sandifer]

I am working on a comparative study between the Soeishi no Kon series and the Shushi no Kon kata series. I have practiced the Matayoshi version of Shushi for several years. Recently, I was shown a couple Ryukyu kata the student said were Shushi no Kon and Shushi no Kon Sho. However, I knew them as Soeishi. I am searching for as much information as I can gather on these along with the kata Shuji (suji) no Kon. Are some or all of these the same kata? Some sources suggest as much.

I am especially hoping to view the Soeishi kata from an official source.

One last hope here, I was also passed a Bo vs. Sai Yakusoku several years back. I think the lineage is Kobayashi Shorin Ryu. I would like to compare notes with an authority and fix any mistakes that have creeped in over the years.

The teacher which imparted these kata to me has long since departed for others and is no longer a resource. Much appreciated for any help.

[Shikiyanaka]

Hello,

I can't answer your questions directly but maybe I am able to give you a piece to puzzle.

There is a possible main misunderstanding in who developed the Shushi no Kun Kata. Most people think it was Chinen Sanda from Yamanne Ryu who developed Shushi no Kun.

However, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten on page 911 of the 1978 edition states, that the founder of the Kata was Soeishi. Soeishi was the trainer of the Kings bodyguards, thus a high ranked Pechin, which is also indicated through his names Soeishi Udun or Soeishui Dunchi. It was maybe through his job as an instructor that the Chinen (Yamane) family came in contact with him.

While Sakugawa taught Chinen Kana his Sakugawa no Kun, which was the foundation of the Yamane Ryû, Soeishi's lineage also entered the Yamane Ryû with the Soeishi no Kun, Choun no Kun and - as the BRD states - the Shushi no Kun, and also through his disciple Chinen Shikiyanaka's Bo form, the Chinen Shikiyanaka no Kun.

Thus, Soeishi was a real main man Ryukyu Kobudo. Shikiyanaka continued his teaching together with Sueyoshi, another high ranking Pechin of Ryukyu kingdom. Sueyoshi's style was a "no uchi" style; it was inside the clan (one reason for the fact that virtually nothing is known about him).

Greetings from Duesseldorf

Andreas Quast

[Nyuck3X]

Mr. Deer,
As far as the Kobayashi/Shorin-ryu is concerned,
it has been my experience that most practitioners
lineage run though the Yamanne-ryu line. Iha Sensei
studies bo under Kishaba and and Nakazato Sensei
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) studied directly
with Chinen.<sp?> Here's a link to the Shorinkan:
http://www.karateshorinkan.com/main.html

I hope this helped.

[Rob Alvelais]

Originally posted by Shikiyanaka
Hello,

While Sakugawa taught Chinen Kana his Sakugawa no Kun, which was the foundation of the Yamane Ryû, Soeishi's lineage also entered the Yamane Ryû with the Soeishi no Kun, Choun no Kun and - as the BRD states - the Shushi no Kun, and also through his disciple Chinen Shikiyanaka's Bo form, the Chinen Shikiyanaka no Kun.


Andreas Quast

The Choun no Kun of Yamane Ryu is of recent development and was authored by Chogi Kishaba. There is a different kata, done in Matayoshi circles, that is also called Choun.

Rob

[Sandifer]

I thank everyone for their replies thus far. Is there somewhere I can view what the Soeishi kata series looks like? Or a video to purchase. I see through the Nakazato site that he put out a video with Yamanne no Shusi (as the site spells it) included. Also, does anyone have a comprehensive list of the Kobayashi Kobudo kata curriculum? Thank you again for all the help in my research.

Sandifer M. Deer

[Shikiyanaka]

Hello Rob,

my fault.

Andreas Quast

[Gene Williams]

Hi, We practice the Matayoshi version of Shushi no Kun. It came to us through Shogo Kuniba, who trained in weapons with Sakagami Ryusho and Taira Shinken. I cannot speak to the other kata you mentioned, but if you want to compare notes, that's fine. I've been doing the kata for about 20 years. Gene

[Rob Alvelais]

Gene,

How is it you do the Matayoshi version and not the Taira version, when Sakagami used to head up a branch of Taira's Kobudo org? I would have guessed that Mr. Kuniba would have done the Taira/RKHSK version and not Matayoshi's version.

Rob
Originally posted by Gene Williams
Hi, We practice the Matayoshi version of Shushi no Kun. It came to us through Shogo Kuniba, who trained in weapons with Sakagami Ryusho and Taira Shinken. I cannot speak to the other kata you mentioned, but if you want to compare notes, that's fine. I've been doing the kata for about 20 years. Gene

[Gene Williams]

That's a good question,Rob. He just told us that this was the Matayoshi version of the kata. Kuniba was famous for teaching versions of kata from several ryuha to different groups at different clinics. I must have learned four ways to do Bassai Dai over the years :( Now, whenever I see a different version of a kata, I just shrug and keep doing what I've been doing all along. My guess is that Kuniba did several versions of the kata...he was a sponge, anyway. I must have seen ten different ways to do Tokumine no Kun. Ho hum....Gene

[Pavel Dolgachov]

How is it you do the Matayoshi version and not the Taira version, when Sakagami used to head up a branch of Taira's Kobudo org?
But, please, don't forget that Taira collected big ammount of kata and Matayoshi Shimpo taught kobudo for different peoples too. I saw him and Taira at one picture. Probably, Taira knew Matayoshi's version too. Probably...