Anonymous hate mail

[Shitoryu Dude]

I received this little gem earlier today from Hiemfror@aol.com

i read your home page and i dont even know why you have a home page here
i looked up forclosed homes and your name popped up
what the hell is your purpose on the web?
not all long haired people who live in trailer parks are drug addicts not everyone woth a tattoo is a drug addict !!!
are you a skin head ?
cause if you are then i would understand your "purpose in life"
to ¤¤¤¤ off!!!

Hiemfror, apparently not familiar with the ways of the Internet, was still online when I turned on IM a couple minutes later.

This could be fun. :cool:

[Shitoryu Dude]

Ah, this is so fun.

His new name is shitbreath.

He also panics easily when I told him to stand by while I uploaded a virus to his computer.

Anyone out there on AOL want to post his "profile" here for me? I'm guessing he's about 15 or so.

:beer:

[A. M. Jauregui]

Could be a high-jacked AOL account. The next door neighbor that I mention now and then had a password so easy to guess that spammers... I made sure that her new password is a lot more complex and random.

Eat this person alive if you want but be open to such possibilities as mentioned above.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Well, his AOL profile has been blanked out and he's still online - chatroom. No doubt he's a kid, the whole thing just reeks of it.

I think it would be just great if perhaps one of his parents found some trace of what he has been doing.

:beer:

[Julian Gerhart]

being in constant contact with a buunch of dumb*** 14 year olds has taught me nothing if not to ignore this kind of thing.

[Shitoryu Dude]

The excitement has already passed :(

About once a year I get something like this - usually from some pre-adolescent twit that I can scare the crap out of easily. Once I got a very upset, rather distant relative that was just totally scandalized that I wasn't a "good christian". She proceeded to preach at me for several paragraphs, concluded that I must live a miserable worthless life, and I was certainly going straight to hell unless I went to church immediately.

I told her in no uncertain terms that not only did I never want to hear from her again, she could go shove a splintery stick up her tw*t and f*** herself to death with it. I found sending that email to be very satisfying :)

:beer:

[adroitjimon]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude


.

I told her in no uncertain terms that not only did I never want to hear from her again, she could go shove a splintery stick up her tw*t and f*** herself to death with it. I found sending that email to be very satisfying :)

:beer: [/B]


what no "Iron claw"?

[kirigirisu]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
The excitement has already passed :(

About once a year I get something like this - usually from some pre-adolescent twit that I can scare the crap out of easily. Once I got a very upset, rather distant relative that was just totally scandalized that I wasn't a "good christian". She proceeded to preach at me for several paragraphs, concluded that I must live a miserable worthless life, and I was certainly going straight to hell unless I went to church immediately.


Heh. I've got to deal with the occaisional Jesus Freak relative urging me to repent before I go to hell with the Jews, Catholics, Athiests, Heathens, and Homosexuals. Usually give them the Hitler Salute and a few hearty shouts of "Jesus Uber Alles" followed by some Ministry-of-Funny-Walks-type goosestepping until they get pissed off and leave.


I told her in no uncertain terms that not only did I never want to hear from her again, she could go shove a splintery stick up her tw*t and f*** herself to death with it. I found sending that email to be very satisfying :)

:beer:

Hmm. Gonna have to try the "ram it up your c**t" approach next time :laugh:

[glad2bhere]

I'm surprised that a shock-value response actually has any productive effect on a shock-value attack. Most of the folks I have run into on various Nets seem bound and determined to spout their unpleasantness independent of the response. In fact, the more logical one attempts to be with such people the more they seem to pour it on. Seems like the anonymous nature of these discussion groups and the typical great distances between folks encourages people to act-out. I wish it wasn't that way, but there does not seem to be much to cause people to act in a mature fashion as long as they are sure they won't be held accountable. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kirigirisu]

Er, usually not. However...

Another martial arts board I once frequented (which shall remain nameless) had this one loudmouthed Goodfellas-stereotype-italian of a New Yorker running off his yap, insulting people, dropping racial slurs left and right and telling people he'd eff their mothers after beating the hell out of them. Typical idiot of a 14 year old.

I asked him if he kissed his mother with that mouth. And if he slipped her some tongue, because of the mommy fetish. And if her moustache tickled when he did.

More rabid squawking by the greasy little schitt, now mainly because like the little bitch he was, he was most adept at dishing it out but had no stomache for taking it. Also, the big bad chinaman said something bad about his mommy.

From then on he was pretty much trying to goad me into meeting up somewhere in NYC for some idiotic death duel. Even gave me an address. I passed on the info to "a few friends of mine" in New York and let the little prick know just that. Scampered off like a little bitch and hasn't been heard from since.

Oddly enough, said "duel" had been set up by our boy to take place on September 11th.

2001.

Eventually left the board since the mods let things get that far before doing absolutely nothing about it.

[kirigirisu]

Originally posted by Julian Gerhart
being in constant contact with a buunch of dumb*** 14 year olds has taught me nothing if not to ignore this kind of thing.

Not saying I believe wholeheartedly in corporal punishment, but nobody, NOBODY is above an ass-whupping.

All depends on if you'd rather get it at the end of daddy's belt or some stranger's tire-iron.

[Gene Williams]

Harvey, quick! Grab Kimpatsu and run to the nearest church! You are both being pursued by the fiery ¤¤¤¤-demons of Hell! Maybe there is hope for you yet! BTW, please will me your guns. gene

[Shitoryu Dude]

In a further development, I have received word that a variety of people had a fair amount of free entertainment by hunting down our little twerp and messing with his head online. :D

Mission accomplished

:toast:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Harvey, quick! Grab Kimpatsu and run to the nearest church! You are both being pursued by the fiery ¤¤¤¤-demons of Hell! Maybe there is hope for you yet! BTW, please will me your guns. gene
I am a fiery demon from hell, Gene.
And you can have part of the gun: the bullets. :shot:

[Kinteki]

too bad we kids have such a bad rep :(
we're not all bad ;)

[Shitoryu Dude]

Heh. I've got to deal with the occaisional Jesus Freak relative urging me to repent before I go to hell with the Jews, Catholics, Athiests, Heathens, and Homosexuals. Usually give them the Hitler Salute and a few hearty shouts of "Jesus Uber Alles" followed by some Ministry-of-Funny-Walks-type goosestepping until they get pissed off and leave.

A friend of mine sent me this link (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp) today along with the heading:

"Hate Somebody? Send them a weekly subscription to this stuff."

Truly, an evil plan if there ever was one.

:beer:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
A friend of mine sent me this link (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp) today along with the heading:
"Hate Somebody? Send them a weekly subscription to this stuff."
Truly, an evil plan if there ever was one.
:beer:
Chick Tracts are really fun to read, though, Harvey. Try it when stoned; they make more sense. :toast: :beer:

[Shitoryu Dude]

Well, for fun I read through a few of them during lunch (sorry, no Scotch allowed at work), and I was just so amazed at the sorry-ass level of intelligence at work for these things. Simplistic to the extreme, stereotyped, bigoted, wrong data, moronic arguments - a typical 10-year old should be able to tear the "logic" apart in his sleep.

What sort of idiots are actually recruited by this BS? :confused:

I've put up with a fair number of door-knocking assholes in my time, but this stuff just takes the cake.

:beer:

[Kimpatsu]

For an antidote, Harvey, try the Chick Parody site. (http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/links.html)
Best,

[boku_wa]

Originally posted by Kinteki
too bad we kids have such a bad rep :(
we're not all bad ;)

forget about kids. "jesus freaks" are getting a bad rep in this thread. :) in either case, i think it's just the extremists who are producing the hardship for the rest of us.

note for the "jesus freak" victims: it is stated in the Bible that it is our duty to let you know that if you don't repent, you are going to hell. :) that's why some "jesus freak"s feel compelled to tell it like it is. don't want to detract from the topic of this thread. just wanted to let you know that. :)

now, my own story of where "jesus freak" meets the obnoxious adolescent....

a youth from our church youth group sent out an email to 30+ people including me warning about some bogus internet scam. me, thinking i'd be the nice parental figure, replied to her and everyone else stating that it was fake and not to worry about it.

out of left field comes a response from none other than a user named "jesusfreak", who despite the name lashed out at me with more 4 letter words than a sailor stating that he/she didn't know who i was and i had no need to tell him/her anything.

apparently this "jesusfreak" was a friend of the church youth originally included on the email list; i thought for a few seconds about responding in kind, but realizing that it was perhaps not the right thing to do, took a few deep breaths and deleted the email.

the "jesusfreak" username though was so contradictory. no kindness or compassion there. to this day, that very phrase/name takes me back to that unfortunate incident.

ah, the days of being young and stupid. too bad some of them just then grow up to be old and stupid.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by boku_wa
forget about kids. "jesus freaks" are getting a bad rep in this thread. :) in either case, i think it's just the extremists who are producing the hardship for the rest of us.
note for the "jesus freak" victims: it is stated in the Bible that it is our duty to let you know that if you don't repent, you are going to hell. :)
The Bible also tells you it's OK to sell your sister into slavery, stone your neighbour for working on the Sabbath, and that women are subservient to men. It also confidently asserts that the universe was created in six days, that the Earth is flat and supported by four pillars, and that Adam and Eve were the first people. It also says there was a great flood that covered the whole planet. All of this is either morally repugnant, or scientifically absurd. But no more than any of the other claims, like the existence of hell and the fate of those of us who don't accept this bullying, self-contradictory, egotistical whiner called "god".
Originally posted by boku_wa
that's why some "jesus freak"s feel compelled to tell it like it is. don't want to detract from the topic of this thread. just wanted to let you know that. :)
Do you think they're right?

[Shitoryu Dude]

Your religion may tell you to go out and spread your foul lies and mind control to those with puny intellects, but I have the right to live unmolested by trash such as you.

Keep your evangelizing away from me.

[kirigirisu]

Originally posted by boku_wa
forget about kids. "jesus freaks" are getting a bad rep in this thread. :) in either case, i think it's just the extremists who are producing the hardship for the rest of us.


The deafening silence you're hearing right now is the sound of my complete and utter apathy about your plight.

Your "hardship" is merely frustration at not being able to coerce every single living being to live under your particular set of social control mechanisms.

Another case of "Save-the-world-or-at-least-make-it-safe-for-my-fragile-little-ego" syndrome.

Yawn.


note for the "jesus freak" victims: it is stated in the Bible that it is our duty to let you know that if you don't repent, you are going to hell. :) that's why some "jesus freak"s feel compelled to tell it like it is. don't want to detract from the topic of this thread. just wanted to let you know that. :)


Must be wonderful living your life based on the befuddled translation of a befuddle translation of an incomplete and heavily edited group of essays and parables and just plain old silly assed fairy tales concocted by a group of sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals from bits and pieces of essays, parables, and just plain old silly-assed fairy tales they borrowed, assimilated, or just plain plagiarized from other groups of sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals.

Of course, you must be thinking that said group of sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals (whichever group, they all suck and I'm glad they're dead) must have been divinely inspired and as such said canon of essays, parables, and just plain old silly-assed fairytales must be the "true word of the Loh-wurd."

For a chuckle, I'll indulge that particular premise.

Okay, even IF said sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals WERE divinely inspired, let us take a look at what our hypothetical diety has to work with:

Take your typical sweaty, unwashed modern-day middle eastern tribal given to either suicide-bombing his sweaty, unwashed modern-day middle eastern tribal neighbors, taking away his sweaty, unwashed modern-day middle eastern tribal neighbor's land so he can build communes upon them, fighting with their sweaty, unwashed modern-day middle eastern tribal neighbors over what is essentially a really crappy piece of real estate IN THE FREAKING DESERT, or otherwise doing typically vicious and unspeakable crap to everyone all in the name of their sweaty, unwashed petulant little girl of an angry man diety, or some combination of the above.

Now subtract roughly three to five thousand years of scientific and social development, education, medicine, technology, etc., etc., etc..

What you're left with is a sweaty, unwashed middle late-bronze-age middle eastern tribal barely out of the trees, still flinging his own feces and rooting around in his own filth like the pigs he's forbidden himself to eat.

Now, say our hypothetical deity comes around and explains to him the secrets of the universe and a methodology for self-improvement and enlightenment and compassion for one's fellow living creatures.

Well, folks, you can't really pour a pitcher of knowledge into a shot-glass of a mind.

You're gonna get the equivalent of giving a retarded five-year-old a thirty minute crash-course in quantum physics and then telling said "developmentally challenged" child to give a lecture to his fellow "developmentally challenged" peers.

Said sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribal's not going to remember the bulk of it, just the bits that he found somewhat interesting and could find purchase upon the folds of of his largely unused grey matter, and he'll probably borrow some stuff from the neighboring tribe's fairy tales to fill in the gaps, plus he'll just make some stuff up that makes him and his tribe look good.

Of course, given that he probably can't read or write, he's got to transmit this stuff orally until he finds someone who CAN read and write and is interested in jotting this stuff down. Of course, stuff starts to change with every iteration of the oral transmission, and by the time he's found some semi-literate member of his tribe or the neighboring tribe, it's probably already significantly different from whatever it was our hypothetical diety had told him. And then there's the matter of the scribe and whatever spin he's going to put on things...

Well, it might be all well and good if the basic idea is to let our sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribal know that he's got to treat himself and his neighbors better, he shouldn't steal his neighbor's stuff or screw them over, and he probably should take up some semblance of hygene so's he and his tribe can continue to live and prosper, instead of eating certain animals which, due to their own appalling lack of hygene, are sure to give him the squirts.

Of course, all his fellow sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals are going to think this is just another quaint little fairy tale just like the other ones they tell around the fire after undercooking some pork. Now, how are you gonna get these folks to pay heed and spread the word, hmm? Hey, I know! Let's tell them that our hypothetical diety has COMMANDED that they live by his law and convert all to his teachings! Yeah, that's the ticket. Of course, it goes against the whole enlightenment and compassion thing that our sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribal really wasn't that interested in, but it'll get the job done.

Hell, it could still work today, given the amount of mental midgets still roaming the planet.

But you've got to figure that there are those of us who don't necessarily need an imaginary invisible petulant little girl of an angry man stern daddy-figure to keep us from killing people, stealing from our neighbors and effing their women, or touching ourself in an unclean manner whilst eating pork, shellfish, cows, or whatever.

[kirigirisu]

And in conclusion, ram it up your c**t.

Heh.

That was a fun bit of ego gratification.

Thanks for the suggestion, Harvey :D

[boku_wa]

hmmm...looks like i opened the proverbial can of worms, huh? :D

perhaps i should have been a little more careful with my language. i didn't and don't intend to tromp on anyone's religious belief or lack thereof. i was simply stating why the previous posters may have had their encounters with the "jesus freak".

and the "hardship" that i'm referring to is exactly what i'm receiving right now. i'm not even trying to change people's beliefs and yet people have already lumped me with the same bunch of "convert or go to hell" crowd. and fyi, i don't espouse the "convert or go to hell" speech.

i thought i had sprinkled the post with enough smileys to make it light-hearted, but i guess religion will always be a touchy issue. :D

i'm perfectly happy if you stay the way you are (as long as you aren't breaking any laws) :D , and i don't want you to change. and again, for those that didn't catch it the first, second, or third time, i am not trying to convert anyone !!! :D

note to self: don't post about religion on e-budo

[Shitoryu Dude]

One of the better explanations I've heard for the origins of religion.

Though I am pretty sure that 5000 years ago at least some of them were brewing beer - which led to such traditions as "the keg party" and "Animal House". Assuredly, these people their game on. :D

[Shitoryu Dude]

The problems with evangelists....

[kirigirisu]

Hell, I've heard that beer was one of the reasons why civilization had even STARTED in the first place.

Given that grass seeds are a pretty piss-poor source of nutrition compared to whatever it was they were hunting and gathering before, and the first grain "breads" were virtually inedible, some have theorized that they were actually part of a primitive mashing process to convert the starches in the grain into those oh-so-lovely sugars for the wee beasties to munch upon.

People had to take up farming grain because finding random patches of a particular grass seed was a pain in the keister. Easier to have your favorite grass seeds readily available. First the baking of crushed seeds into loaves to malt the grain, then breaking them up into pieces and mixed with water in great clay jars. Then the priestess would come over and stir the mixture with her magic wooden spoon (just teeming with yeast from the previous batches), cover, and in a few days, happy-juice.

I think Anchor or some other company actually made some brew according to this ancient methodology, found on a Summerian tablet from Ur or some such archeological dig.

Of course, some proto-purtian killjoy mucks up the works and starts telling folks to eat the LOAVES before they're made into happy-juice.

And then there was bread.

[kirigirisu]

It was the Summerians and later Babylonians and Egyptians that did most of the brewing.

The Aramaeans were a miserable little tribe of sand-barbarians given to robbing, stealing, raping and pillaging their neighbors until they'd assimilated some semblance of civilization through osmosis or pillaging or whatever. Too bad they went the proto-puritan route and developed a sense of self-importance and self-righteousness they would pass on to their many descendants, both genetic and intellectual.

You figure they'd lighten up had they assimilated the whole beer thing...

:beer:

[boku_wa]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for the thought provocative response.

>The Bible also tells you it's OK to sell your sister
>into slavery, stone your neighbour for working on the
>Sabbath, and that women are subservient to men. It
>also confidently asserts that the universe was
>created in six days, that the Earth is flat and
>supported by four pillars, and that Adam and Eve were
>the first people. It also says there was a great
>flood that covered the whole planet. All of this is
>either morally repugnant, or scientifically absurd.
>But no more than any of the other claims, like the
>existence of hell and the fate of those of us who
>don't accept this bullying, self-contradictory,
>egotistical whiner called "god".

The portion you are referring to is the Old Testament,
books which were written prior to the arrival of
Jesus. Although there are various Christian faiths
that still hold steadfast to the Old Testament, my
particular faith primarily follows the teachings in
the New Testament, books written about the life of
Jesus as well as Christianity after His death.

So, to make a long answer longer :), I don't prescribe
to selling my sister into slavery, stoning my
neighbors, and definitely a no-no for the female
subservience.

Universe created in six days? Time is relative.
Maybe His "days" are longer than ours. It is not
stated with the same point of reference. Our days
being measured by rotation of the earth.

Four pillars? Earth flat? I'll have to check on that
unless you can point me to the exact verses. I don't
recall coming across that.

Adam and Eve? Yep. Whether it's just some messed up
tale or not, I can say that despite all logical and
scientific reasoning, I do believe it. :) Strangely,
before converting to Christianity, I heard old folk
tales in our own culture of the beginning with just a
male and a female. Maybe it's a collective madness.

>quote:
>------------------------------------------------------
>Originally posted by boku_wa
>that's why some "jesus freak"s feel compelled to tell
>it like it is. don't want to detract from the topic
>of this thread. just wanted to let you know that.
>------------------------------------------------------
>
> Do you think they're right?

I think it's fine that they try to inform others of
their beliefs...BUT I don't think it's reasonable to
bring it about in a "convert to Christianity or you're
going to hell" tone. From my own experience, the
Bible states that we are to inform. God will take
care of the conversion. In that sense, then, I do
feel that the "jesus freaks" encountered in the posts
have been a bit unruly.

If Christianity or any religion for that matter can be
scientifically proven, who in their right mind would
not accept it? The beauty or curse of faith is that
one believes without seeing. Same applies for every
religion obviously and that's why there are so many
religions.

There are varying levels of Christianity as with any
religion. I hope you don't group us all into the same
boat because of a few "jesus freaks". Likewise, we
only hear about the radical Islamic fundamentalists,
but we seldom hear about the accomplishments or
contributions of the moderate Muslims. The general
public runs a risk of associating Muslims with radical
terrorists.

At any rate, no one likes to have anything rammed down
his/her throat...particularly something so important
as religion. I do acknowledge though that the "change
or go to hell" speech serves to alienate more than
bring people to Christ. For my own sake and the
youths that I help, I try to instill religious
tolerance within them.

Christianity, at its heart, is about love. The love
that Jesus had for us...and the love that we should
have for each other. What eventually ends up on the
"street" is something less than that most of the time.

Anyway, I've ranted enough. Again, thanks for the
questions. And if I can serve to confuse you any
further, please let me know.

BTW, what ethnicity is "Kehoe"? You're living my
dream in Japan!! :) Ah, the things I should have done
when I was single.

Thanks,
Laly

[elder999]

Here we go, again.....:rolleyes: :D :p ;)

[boku_wa]

Originally posted by elder999
Here we go, again.....:rolleyes:

waitaminit!!! i already threw in my disclaimer. :p

dangit....

*gets into flame retardent suit* :D

[Kimpatsu]

This reply was badly parsed, without quotes, but I'll do my best to decipher and answer it. Here goes:
Originally posted by boku_wa
The portion you are referring to is the Old Testament,
books which were written prior to the arrival of
Jesus. Although there are various Christian faiths
that still hold steadfast to the Old Testament, my
particular faith primarily follows the teachings in
the New Testament, books written about the life of
Jesus as well as Christianity after His death.
So you practice a buffet-style Xianity in which you pick the bits you like, and reject the rest? Well, as that's what everyone else does, too, on one level it may be OK, but the fact remains that the exhortation to commit these atrocities are right there in the Bible. Why do you only pick the parts you like? Do you do the same with the laws of your country? "Oh, I like the not stealing laws, so I'll obey them, but I disagree with taxation, so I'll ignore the laws that say I have to pay taxes..."
Originally posted by boku_wa
So, to make a long answer longer :), I don't prescribe
to selling my sister into slavery, stoning my
neighbors, and definitely a no-no for the female
subservience.
So you just ignore those parts of the Bible with which you disagree to begin with? OK...
Originally posted by boku_wa
Universe created in six days? Time is relative.
Maybe His "days" are longer than ours. It is not
stated with the same point of reference. Our days
being measured by rotation of the earth.
This is a weasel attempt to reconcile Biblical superstition with current scientific knowledge. Genesis was written as a literal account of creation, as revealed to some pre-scientific Middle Eastern shepherd who'd been chewing hashish. For millenia, it was believed to be real (Bishop James Ussher of Armagh even calculated the date of creation as October 2004 BC based on the Biblical account back in the late 17th century), but modern geology and astronomy have firmly consigned such twaddle to the dustbin. But let's play your game for a moment; even assuming the day/age argument, the order of creation is still wrong. Plants did not come before the sun, and nor did the Earth. You're just trying to wriggle out of the fact that the creation myth in the Bible (or, rather, both of them) are factually inaccurate. They were written by pre-scientific people to explain their existence, and the existence of the universe. As such, they are a cosmology and a biology... and they are completely wrong.
Originally posted by boku_wa
Four pillars? Earth flat? I'll have to check on that
unless you can point me to the exact verses. I don't
recall coming across that.
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)
Originally posted by boku_wa
Adam and Eve? Yep. Whether it's just some messed up
tale or not, I can say that despite all logical and
scientific reasoning, I do believe it. :) Strangely,
before converting to Christianity, I heard old folk
tales in our own culture of the beginning with just a
male and a female. Maybe it's a collective madness.
No, it's a pre-scientific attempt to explain life. It's also an anthropocentric viewpoint; because humans procreate sexually, it's easy to assume that the gods must do so too, and creation myths are often sexual metaphors. Look at the Shinto creation myth of Japan.
But this brings me to my main point: All religions start with a creation myth; they are a cosmology and a biology, a pre-scientific attempt to explain life. And they are all completely wrong. Why have faith in something that is demonstrably wrong? Do you also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Both are more probable than the Xian god.
Originally posted by boku_wa
I think it's fine that they try to inform others of
their beliefs...BUT I don't think it's reasonable to
bring it about in a "convert to Christianity or you're
going to hell" tone. From my own experience, the
Bible states that we are to inform. God will take
care of the conversion. In that sense, then, I do
feel that the "jesus freaks" encountered in the posts
have been a bit unruly.
The Bible also says that you must stone unbelievers. What's with this buffet style pick'n'mix Xianity? Either you accept the teachings of the Bible as 100% divine revelation, warts and all, or you admit that there is no divine inspiration behind what is really a collection of Middle Eastern histories, fairy tales, and propaganda.
Originally posted by boku_wa
If Christianity or any religion for that matter can be
scientifically proven, who in their right mind would
not accept it? The beauty or curse of faith is that
one believes without seeing. Same applies for every
religion obviously and that's why there are so many
religions.
In other words, faith is belief without the evidence, or contrary to the evidence. What use is that? With evidence, faith would be superfluous. Such irrationality is neither beautiful nor cursed; it's just plain stupid.
As to the reason for so many religions: the Abrahamic religions grew out of each other, but other religions (Zoroastrianism, Shinto, etc.) are, as I have said, pre-scientific attempts at cosmology and a biology that arose independently of each other, hence the discrepancies. You'd think an all-powerful god would at least have scattered her word to all the peoples of Earth, instead of confining it to a bunch of Bronze Age Middle Eastern shepherds.
Originally posted by boku_wa
There are varying levels of Christianity as with any
religion.
Stop right there. Why is the supposed Divine Word open to such misinterpretation? You'd think that if god really wanted to teach everyone her purpose, she'd be unambiguous. Instead, she has contradicted herself so many times within her own book, she displays an uneven writing style. There are much better non-divine authors with greater insight into the human condition, including William Shakespeare, Thomas Paine, and Dr. Seuss.
Originally posted by boku_wa
I hope you don't group us all into the same
boat because of a few "jesus freaks". Likewise, we
only hear about the radical Islamic fundamentalists,
but we seldom hear about the accomplishments or
contributions of the moderate Muslims. The general
public runs a risk of associating Muslims with radical
terrorists.
You are all Jesus Freaks, if you believe in the literal truth of the New Testament. It's just some of you are more obnoxious than others. We could create a scale, with 10 as supremely obnoxious, and 1 as tolerable in ordinary social conditions so long as you don't start spouting testament. A 10 is the kind of fundie who goes to funerals and tells mourners that their loved one is burning in Hell for their sins. A 1 doesn't tell anyone about their superstition, and keeps it to themselves.
As to Islam (another Abrahamic religion, note): The Koran explicitly tells Muslims to kill infidels. At least the 9/11 terrorists, obnoxious though they were, were obeying the strict letter of their creed. This wishy-washy nonsense that the Abrahamic religions are somehow about love simply isn't true. Stop being intellectually dishonest, and accept the Bible (or the Koran) for what they are, warts and all.
Originally posted by boku_wa
At any rate, no one likes to have anything rammed down
his/her throat...particularly something so important
as religion. I do acknowledge though that the "change
or go to hell" speech serves to alienate more than
bring people to Christ. For my own sake and the
youths that I help, I try to instill religious
tolerance within them.
By being dishonest to the teachings of your own Good Book. And is religion really important? It's impact historically has been immense, but it has been a force of great evil rather than good, and still does damage today. Also, why do you want to bring people to a carpenter who's been dead for 2,000 years?
Also, one very important point: If you're right, then the Muslims and Jews must de facto be wrong. Are you trying to convert them, too? Do you honestly admit to Jews and Muslims that you believe them to be completely off the mark? You preach contradictory philosophies, so you can't all be right. Are you honest enough to tell them so?
Originally posted by boku_wa
Christianity, at its heart, is about love.
Oh, really?
Genesis:
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all.
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals.
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all.
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better.
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous".
God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family.
"And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday.
After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control.
Exodus
God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised.
God will make sure that Pharaoh does not listen to Moses, so that he can kill Egyptians with his armies.
"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." Who else could be so cruel and unjust?
God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel."
"The Lord is a man of war." Indeed, judging from his acts in the Old Testament, he is a vicious warlike monster.
Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed.
God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor." "And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men."
Leviticus
God's treatment for leprosy: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering.
"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Couldn't we try spanking first?
Both parties in adultery shall be executed.
Homosexuals must be executed.
Shall I go on? Lot of love there... :rolleyes:
Originally posted by boku_wa
The love that Jesus had for us...and the love that we should
have for each other. What eventually ends up on the
"street" is something less than that most of the time.
So, you're saying those people have got their Xianity wrong? But of course, you're there to tell them the correct way to worship, just so they don't go to hell by mistake...
Originally posted by boku_wa
Anyway, I've ranted enough. Again, thanks for the
questions. And if I can serve to confuse you any
further, please let me know.
Answer my questions above, without obfuscation, and I'll be happy.
Originally posted by boku_wa
BTW, what ethnicity is "Kehoe"?
It's a corruption of the Irish "MacEiodh" ("Son of Owen").

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by elder999
Here we go, again.....:rolleyes: :D :p ;)
Yeah, isn't it FUN????!!!!! :D

[boku_wa]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Answer my questions above, without obfuscation, and I'll be happy.



i wish i could answer all your questions...i'd be even happier. :D



It's a corruption of the Irish "MacEiodh" ("Son of Owen").


so, an approximate pronounciation would be "mac-kee-hoed"; hence the "corruption"? neat name.

laly

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by boku_wa
i wish i could answer all your questions...i'd be even happier. :D
So you don't even understand what you profess to believe? Goerge Orwell called that "double think".
Originally posted by boku_wa
so, an approximate pronounciation would be "mac-kee-hoed"; hence the "corruption"? neat name.
The final "D" is silent; it was anglicised by English troops who couldn't speak Gaelic. Personally, I prefer the original...

[kirigirisu]

You forgot about the utter bibliographic mess that is the New Testament, which our stalward Christian Soldier prioritizes as self-contradictory canon over the much pou-pou'd Old Testament and its bloodthirsty, petulant little bitch of a diety as anthropomorphised by a particularly miserable group of late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals.

Given that J.C., avatar of a diety who may or may not be the same pull-the-wings-off-of-flies brat of a supreme being that his forbearers believed in or not, didn't actually write a single scrap of the New Testament and everything else is either second or third hand accounts by people who WEREN'T EVEN THERE (yeah, yeah, the conjectural John, James, Matthew, and Luke, plus that Peter guy were probably there if what is written is taken to be true, but they themselves most likely didn't write whatever it was that's attributed to them).

On top of that, you have this rabble rouser creep named Paul going around telling folks that Junior told him that he's now going to run the show. Of course, J.C. somehow neglected to inform his eleven closest buddies of this fact, but no matter. What started out as a reform movement in Judaism has now been co-opped by a closet homosexual with misogynistic tendencies and anger issues regarding his own sexuality, not unlike J. Edgar Hoover or Freud.

So you have about six or eight books that have the slight possiblity of having been written by possible eyewitnesses to Junior's deeds upon this planet, but were most likely written by their followers, plus some more by someone with questionable legitimacy at best, plus the bad acid trip at the end.

Again, quite the mess to base your life upon.

And let us not forget what is now deemed the Apocropha and all the wonderful stuff Holy Mother Church or the Elders or whoever the eff it was that's taken it upon themselves to edit as they please have decided to conveniently leave out of the Good Book Part II.

The moral of this story: If you're a Supreme Being, there are better choices of people to filter your message through than sweaty, unwashed late-bronze-age middle eastern tribals.

[Shitoryu Dude]

If I remember correctly, the bible itself was created around the 4th or 5th century. It was decided that a selection of various texts would be "representative" of the religion as a whole. This is why we get groups like mormons who go about and yammer on endlessly about how the bible is "incomplete" and refer to other texts that were left out. Its true, but hardly relevant.

The bible accounts for about .001% of all the various xtian "books" out there that could have been included. The bible is hardly the definitive reference point, it is just the beginning of a large amount of meaningless drivel, most of it contradictory.

:beer:

[Kimpatsu]

...but I get to have the last word. :D
Now, to business: If anyone reading this thinks that the Gospel accounts of Jesus are historically accurate, do me a favour: Write down the chronology from the crucifixion to the resurrection, using all four Gospels. But--and here's the kicker--you mustn't leave anything out.
Many have tried, but no one has yet succeeded... ;)

[bruceb]

But ALL of you are as wrong as you are right.

Humanity created religion, including the BIBLE, and being flawed in thinking we have observatons that may be correct but interpretations that may not. Hence, in using quotes from stories that have been rewritten at least a dozen times to change their meanings to adapt to a culture or a society. The confusion is not in story themselves but the interpretations of events by humanity.

Since we are part of a PRESENT humanity .... we too are no less flawed and open to interpretation.

At some point, the mystical and fiction of a story is just as real as someone who lived and died, because each is taken from strengths and weaknesses of the human condition and the reflection of that condition is what makes the lesson of the story valuable enough to be told and retold for countless generations.

In a way, as much as I hate to admit it, I must agree that TK has a point about accepting the failability of placing all your faith in words written to record events and are rewritten to inspire faith. Accepting the writings for what they are, warts and all, as lessons of a past generation for future generations, not as the end all to how you should be forced to live and force others to abide by the same religious faith is a valid point.

I don't know how many sermons and services I have sat through in my lifetime, and that includes a few from other than the Christian faith, but the manner in which humanity percieves an individual to connect to the forces within planet earth or the universe seems to be as simular as they are dissimular.

I really hate people who come to my house and want me to feel the power of love from JESUS, or whatever they are selling, but by the same token, I understand why they have been sent out in to the world to get a feeling for what is outside the protected walls of their faith.

We all put up walls when our mind meets with something we can't or won't understand, it is only natural. Sometimes there is anger and turmoil from this, and sometimes it is blocked out to the point of amnesia, or partial amnesia, yet ... the resolution of emotions, faith, and turmoil is at the heart of all religions. A means to find peace and love within ones lifetime.

I don't care how many quotes you have from the BIBLE, or the KORAN, or any other book ... if you can not find a means to understand how to exist in this world and co-exist with your fellow human beings on your own terms, you won't find a resolution to these underlying thoughts that are the cause of humans creating religions and writings about religion.

The DAMN HUMAN CONDITION is what this is all about.

Get a grip on who wrote what, why they wrote it or why events were portrayed in certain lights, and then you will have reached one of the middle levels to enlightenment.

Every religion starts with simple faith, and encourages you to build upon the simple faith to the complex knowledge needge for enlightenment. It ain't gonna happen if you are quagmired in the theology of this person did this, or this person wrote that, because you are now depending upon the absolute validity and interpretation of that one source.

It might be correct, but then, just as any proof, it should be provable in a number of ways and be valid in a variety of situations, not just one all encompassing faith, or religion, should it?

So, as much as I hate to say it ... TK does have a valid point, but ... it is just one point in the ladder to enlightenment.

Each of us must educate ourselves in order to climb that ladder, and each of us is not the same for becoming enlightened, or in some cases disillusioned, in climbing that ladder.

The point is .... we have only the time we exist in this universe, this lifetime to do whatever it is we were created to do. It seeking that mandate we are taken to creating numerous erroneous thoughts, ideas and religous doctrines. Why? Because each of us has simular but different prioritys for our lives, to do things simular but different from other human beings, and to interact with our planet earth and its inhabitants, so being separate entitys we each percieve and think on simular and yet different terms.

Confusing? Isn't it, though?

On the other hand, if one uses a leap of faith, now and then, it all becomes quite simple in terms of what you know and understand for this moment, also.

If humanity had any sense .... we would be writing down the stories of present miracles and saints who walk among us today, and let the past be but a lesson to humanity, not a religion.

My opinion, of course.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I imagine the little people in your TV are confusing to you Brucie. Have you figured out how they live in there and where they come from? And why is it that Big Bird isn't on more often?

:beer:

[bruceb]

No .... I don't think about such things, but obviously ... You DO Harvey.

Oops! I should have written "unknown" to stay with the theme of Anonymous hate mail?

Gee, it must be awefull to live in Seattle and not be happy?

Oh, well.

I have 10,000 of your friends and relatives that should "GO WEST".

Maybe if we raise the realestate values again they will move out that way? Chop down some more trees, will ya? Ya got company coming, and they need some homes.....

[Kimpatsu]

Bruce, could you send me a dollar every time you write stream-of-consciousness rubbish, using the phrase "Oh, well"? You'd be bankrupt within a week.
BTW, have you ever heard of the shoulders of giants? And do you know what it means?

[Alex Parks]

I would like to point out a few facts about the Bible and the reasoning why it appears that some Christians pick and choose what they will and will not follow from Scripture. This may not satisfy some of the questions I've seen here and, as a matter of fact it may just raise even more. However, I don't intend to write a book but, just provide a couple of details to give people some things to think about.

First of all I'd like to point out that the Ten Commandments, as given to Moses by God and, the subsequent laws of the OT, were put in place by God to provide a standard of morality for the Jews and their covenant relationship with Him. The Ten Commandments were never meant for anybody else but the Jews. Read account in Exodus and let that idea sink in for a while and simmer. Gives a whole new light into the illegitimacy of having the Ten Commandments up on our federal buildings and schools. I know what you're thinking, Ok Alex, if the Ten Commandments aren't for everybody then how is it that Christians claim a covenant relationship with God? I know, most of you probably weren't thinking exactly that or even close to that just allow me some artistic license. Let's go to my second point, where Jesus comes in and the appearance of the picking and choosing seems to come into play.

Ok, onto the NT and at least a partial answer to my rhetorical question. Jesus' introduction and importance is very crucial at this point. The reason being is that Jesus is the bridgehead that allows Gentiles (aka non-Jews) to have that covenant relationship to God. It is Jesus' death on the cross that fulfilled the OT, Jews-only, covenant with God and the beginning of the NT covenant with God that made it possible for everyone. Why is this important? It takes away the legalism that was inherent to the OT way of doing things. Following the law became a means to an end for the Jews. So much so that they had created some pretty ellaborate loop holes to jump through in order to circumnavigate the literalness in which they interpreted the law. They had lost God's purpose for the law, which was to bring them to a closer relationship with Him. Thus, God sacrificed His son upon the cross which, by this ultimate gift extends to all people God's grace. This gives us the ability to have that close relationship with God and to follow His laws, not because we have to but, because we want to.

This is a very short answer that actually requires a bit of study to fully understand. I know this opens up several cans of worms but, like I said before I didn't intend to write a book. I'll just do my best to answer the questions that these statements create.

Regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
First of all I'd like to point out that the Ten Commandments, as given to Moses by God
You should really say, "According to the mythology, the 10 Commandments were given...", because there's no evidence that they are anything other than man-made.
Originally posted by Alex Parks
...and, the subsequent laws of the OT, were put in place by God to provide a standard of morality for the Jews and their covenant relationship with Him.
No, they were created as rules for their day. They were fine in their time, but they are completely outmoded now.
Originally posted by Alex Parks
Ok, onto the NT and at least a partial answer to my rhetorical question. Jesus' introduction and importance is very crucial at this point. The reason being is that Jesus is the bridgehead that allows Gentiles (aka non-Jews) to have that covenant relationship to God. It is Jesus' death on the cross that fulfilled the OT, Jews-only, covenant with God and the beginning of the NT covenant with God that made it possible for everyone.
Once again, you're talking about mythology as if it's history. You should make this clear at the beginning.
Originally posted by Alex Parks
Why is this important? It takes away the legalism that was inherent to the OT way of doing things. Following the law became a means to an end for the Jews. So much so that they had created some pretty ellaborate loop holes to jump through in order to circumnavigate the literalness in which they interpreted the law. They had lost God's purpose for the law, which was to bring them to a closer relationship with Him. Thus, God sacrificed His son upon the cross which, by this ultimate gift extends to all people God's grace. This gives us the ability to have that close relationship with God and to follow His laws, not because we have to but, because we want to.
Why would allowing your son to die fulfill a covenant? Pretty stupid, really. And what sort of sacrifice was it? In the mythology, the son doesn't even stay dead.
Originally posted by Alex Parks
This is a very short answer that actually requires a bit of study to fully understand. I know this opens up several cans of worms but, like I said before I didn't intend to write a book. I'll just do my best to answer the questions that these statements create.
The Romans tried and executed Jesus; so worship the Romans.
Here's a question for you to answer:
The Riddle of Epicurius
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Answers on a postcard, please.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
This is a very short answer that actually requires a bit of study to fully understand. I know this opens up several cans of worms but, like I said before I didn't intend to write a book. I'll just do my best to answer the questions that these statements create.


Well, no, it's actually the sort of neo-CHristian twaddle one hears all the time from people who've been force fed a book that's only 1500 years old.

Jesus's teachings are completely summed up in the first of the Ten Commandments-entirely Jewish teachings extended to everone.

[Cady Goldfield]

What so many folks don't consider, is that Judaism was - and is - a tribal faith that was part of the cultural and societal system for a population of Middle Eastern Semitic people. It was never intended for "outside consumption." No more so than you'd expect non-Japanese to adopt Shinto.

It ceased to have relevance once non-Semites in non-Middle Eastern cultures adopted Christianity. How can they relate to Jesus's Jewishness, if they do not know what it means to "think like a Jew.

In fact, many aspects of ancient Jewish writings are no longer relevant to contemporary Jews, being that they live in a non-pastoral environment now, and have ceased to live by the ways that were relevant to their scrub-dwelling, beduin-like ancestors. We have evolved into a different people and culture from that of our ancient forebears.

I view the entire Torah and other ancient scrolls as a combination of versions of ancient Semitic creation myths, actual human history, and various and sundry embellishments on the truth from a slew of author-historians over time. The authors were very much people of their time and place, and the bloody tales and harsh values reflect that.

However (Orthodox/Hasidim aside, as their intepretation of the Torah continues to be literal), many of us continue to value the Torah and other old writings as a compendium of our collective ethnic history. Instead of handing down oral traditions, as Native Americans did, we have it in writing.

In that respect, the Torah is precious to me, because the events of the past century have pretty much made it impossible for my immediate family to trace its direct ancestry. I have records of my family that go back only two or three generations; but, with the Torah and other Aramaic and Hebrew scrolls, I have records of my ancestry that go back 6 millennia, to the beginning of Semitic civilization.

[Alex Parks]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, they were created as rules for their day. They were fine in their time, but they are completely outmoded now.

So you're saying that guidelines for basic human decency are outdated? Interesting.

Why would allowing your son to die fulfill a covenant? Pretty stupid, really. And what sort of sacrifice was it? In the mythology, the son doesn't even stay dead.

Jesus told his disciples that there was no greater love than a man give up his own life for his friends. Then he willingly went to the cross and died on it. Not so stupid. Very powerful actually.

The Romans tried and executed Jesus; so worship the Romans.

No they didn't. Pilate washed his hands of the matter and told the Jews to deal with Jesus themselves because he could find no wrong in the man.

Here's a question for you to answer:
The Riddle of Epicurius
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Answers on a postcard, please.

I'll answer that this way. If you believe there is darkness, you are wrong. Darkness is but the absence of the presence of light. If you believe there is cold, you are wrong. Cold is but the absence of the presence of heat. In the same way evil is the absence of the presence of God.

I'll address the mythology statements in another post.

Regards,

[Shitoryu Dude]

"basic human decency"? That isn't in the bible. Slavery, rape, murder, infanticide, genocide, etc - that's in the bible.

sheesh.

[Cady Goldfield]

And it's all human history, nothing more. Certainly not meant to be guidelines for urbanized civilizations.

OTOH, it's because of that harsh way of life that insightful people such as Moshe tried to introduce simple rules for just and compassionate living, and to instill order among the people.

There is a lot of violence and cruelty in the Torah, a compendium of a culture's history. But, there is also a lot of wisdom.

[dirithtai]

Originally posted by Alex Parks


So you're saying that guidelines for basic human decency are outdated? Interesting.

Those particular guidlines that involved stoning people who worked on saturday, killing adulterers, witches, and anyone with a big gold cow? As a person who spends the majority of his saturdays buttoned up in a kitchen working to keep myslef fed, I'd say yes, laws requireing someone to kill me for that are pretty damn outmoded. The ten commandments are the famous bits, the rest of the "divine law" that came at roughly the same time is a pile of outmoded, and decidedly machiavelian rubbish.



Originally posted by Alex Parks


Jesus told his disciples that there was no greater love than a man give up his own life for his friends. Then he willingly went to the cross and died on it. Not so stupid. Very powerful actually.

Since, by the same stories, he was the son of god, and therefore immortal and destined to be resurected in 3 days...and even if he wasn't resurrected, he knew he was going home to see daddy...no, actually its about as moving as me playing the bullet-sheild in a game of counterstrike, IMHO. Okay, it hurt a lot, but still, pain to the omnipotent really shouldn't be that big a deal.


Originally posted by Alex Parks


I'll answer that this way. If you believe there is darkness, you are wrong. Darkness is but the absence of the presence of light. If you believe there is cold, you are wrong. Cold is but the absence of the presence of heat. In the same way evil is the absence of the presence of God.

...
....
.....
Since cold and darkness are ohysical phenomena provably occuring from the lacks of heat and light respectively, I'll grant the first 2.

However, the last one pre-supposes the extance and benevolence of a supreme being, and denies that evil is
A.) a social construct based on man-made moral codes, and
B.) a product of human will.

It also denies the extance of a Malevolent force in the universe that is not a lack of god, but rather its antithesis, which, if you read the story of Job carefully, you'll find the bible espousing in the first place.

[Cady Goldfield]

The idea of Shabbat - a day of rest - was invented out of compassion for both humans and the beasts of burden they had. The day was to be used for resting and worshipping god.

But, societies and governments are notorious for taking a good thing and warping it for the sake of control or personal gain. So, humans (most certainly males, and obsessive-compulsive males, at that) created laws that forced the keeping of Shabbat, with dire consequences if one failed to do so.

Talmudic law has long since debated and ammended the decisions made by ancient control freaks. ;) If you refer to the Talmud and modern Jewish texts, you'll note that generations of rabbis have determined that there are many instances in which Shabbat can be broken (to save a life, for example) or loopholed (the "eruv" - a magical boundary that allows Orthodox Jews to wheel baby carriages, drive ambulances, etc. on Shabbat within a designated area).

Also, stoning is not an option, and hasn't been for a long time.

[Alex Parks]

Originally posted by dirithtai
However, the last one pre-supposes the extance and benevolence of a supreme being, and denies that evil is
A.) a social construct based on man-made moral codes, and
B.) a product of human will.

It also denies the extance of a Malevolent force in the universe that is not a lack of god, but rather its antithesis, which, if you read the story of Job carefully, you'll find the bible espousing in the first place.

I don't believe it denies those points at all. In fact it supports them because it's the absence of the moral aughtness of God in man's will and Satan pushing forth his own will and not God's in the cases you described.

[dirithtai]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
I don't believe it denies those points at all. In fact it supports them because it's the absence of the moral aughtness of God in man's will and Satan pushing forth his own will and not God's in the cases you described.


aughtness...?

Is that even a word? I can't find it in a dictionary. A definition would be enilghtening.

Do you also realize that you just contradicted yourself in the space of one sentence? That takes a special talent. If satan pushes forth his own will, then the direct cause of evil is satan, and not the absence of God. If god left, and satan was busy getting hammered with Thor and Poseidon in the divine bar down the street, there would be neither good nor evil, just neutrality. Zero, if you want to look at it mathematically.

And it still presupposes the extance of god (and anti-god), which has yet to be proven satisfactorily. I continue to contend that the analogy is bollocks.


Cady-
I was just refering to the laws as put forth in the Talmud as originally written by Moses and his fellows, they involve stoning. Thus, even by modern jewish law, they aren't relevant anymore. If I'm wrong about the way they were originally written, sorry, but its been a long few years since my last theology course.

[Alex Parks]

Excuse me, it should be oughtness. In other words the duty of someone to behave morally. I don't see how I've contradicted myself but I shall not argue the point further.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
So you're saying that guidelines for basic human decency are outdated? Interesting.
Basic decency? Like Slavery, stoning witches :confused: and mistreating the disabled, all of which are sanctioned by the Bible.
Originally posted by Alex Parks
Jesus told his disciples that there was no greater love than a man give up his own life for his friends. Then he willingly went to the cross and died on it. Not so stupid. Very powerful actually.
No, stupid. He accomplished nothing. The evil that crucified him wasn't fazed in the slightest.
Originally posted by Alex Parks
No they didn't. Pilate washed his hands of the matter and told the Jews to deal with Jesus themselves because he could find no wrong in the man.
It was still the Romans who crucified him. And just think: if they'd used the electric chair, the electric chair would now be a Xpian symbol!
Originally posted by Alex Parks
I'll answer that this way. If you believe there is darkness, you are wrong. Darkness is but the absence of the presence of light. If you believe there is cold, you are wrong. Cold is but the absence of the presence of heat. In the same way evil is the absence of the presence of God.
False analogy. Evil is a positive action. It's very poetic, though.
And as god desn't exist, evil must be everywhere.

[Shitoryu Dude]

Ah, but to a true evangelical idiot, we all go directly to hell at the moment of conception unless we start sucking god's magnificent wanger and confess what horrible trash we are for existing.

No point in arguing with him Tony, he is stuck in a logic loop that refuses to allow any reality to intervene. I'm sure you've seen it before - if they actually admit they might be wrong they will go stark raving nuts. Everything will be twisted and perverted to conclude with the predetermined outcome.

:beer:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
I don't believe it denies those points at all. In fact it supports them because it's the absence of the moral aughtness of God in man's will and Satan pushing forth his own will and not God's in the cases you described.
Back up a moment, Alex, and first offer us evidence for the existence of this god, because without that, your theories, which are based on said existence, are worthless.

[Alex Parks]

You know what? You're right. This discussion is pointless as became evident when you resorted to personal attacks and name calling instead of just arguing the points. I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion but, when you slip into those kinds of tactics it is no longer fun to debate. Good day.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
You know what? You're right. This discussion is pointless as became evident when you resorted to personal attacks and name calling instead of just arguing the points. I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion but, when you slip into those kinds of tactics it is no longer fun to debate. Good day.
Fabulous ad hominem, Alex; I take it, then, that you in fact have no evidence to offer?
BTW, your outburst wasn't very Christian, now, was it?

[Alex Parks]

Ok, I'll bite for at least one more post here.

Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over the empty place, and He hung the earth on nothing.

Job 38:16 Have you gone to the springs of the sea?

Scientific facts only proved in the last century and yet this text was written over a couple thousand years ago. Even if you call the Bible mythology and the stories are just stories, the writer still had knowledge that no person could have possibly just known. How could he have known it without being devinely inspired? There are other texts to take into consideration as well, but I would think these should be sufficient.

Regards,

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
Ok, I'll bite for at least one more post here.

Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over the empty place, and He hung the earth on nothing.

Job 38:16 Have you gone to the springs of the sea?

Scientific facts only proved in the last century and yet this text was written over a couple thousand years ago. Even if you call the Bible mythology and the stories are just stories, the writer still had knowledge that no person could have possibly just known. How could he have known it without being devinely inspired? There are other texts to take into consideration as well, but I would think these should be sufficient.

Regards,
This is not a scientific claim! Don't be ridiculous! What on earth do you think this is saying? Please be specific. You think the Bible has scientific ingormation? Ity claims pi is 3, and that the earth is flat! It says that heaven is hotter than hell (the light of the moon times seven), that rabbits chew cud, that insects have four legs, and it mentions a talking ass and other mythical beasts!
The writer had NO scientific knowledge! What a dumb thing to say! Please explain to me what this is supposed to mean? :rolleyes:
TIA,

[elder999]

Even if the writer did have scientific knowledge of geology and astronomy, and you believe the Book of Job to be contemporaneous with the time of the patriarchs-circa 2000 B.C., say, there's every indication that a variety of cultures had this same knowledge gained through scientific means-i.e., observation.

Egypt comes to mind right away......

At any rate, "He... hangeth the earth upon nothing" simply expressed a Hebrew belief that the flat earth, although supported by pillars, did not rest on the back of Atlas or a turtle or an elephant, as their pagan neighbors believed. In this Job was right but not because he was inspired; otherwise, he wouldn't have said in the same context, "The pillars of the heavens tremble (see the graphics) and are stunned at his thunderous rebuke," (26:11). He thought the thunder was God's voice!

"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place and hangeth the earth upon nothing." An NAB footnote at this verse says, "The North: used here as a synonym for the firmament, cf. Is. 14:13," (emphasis inserted). Thus, we read, "He stretches out the dome (firmament) over the empty space." In other words, the dome was unsupported in the middle.

[Alex Parks]

Then how do you explain that they've used the most powerful telescopes available today to search the north sky and find no stars there?

Also you didn't address the second verse that talks about the springs in the sea, which refers to the natural springs of water that come up at the bottom of the ocean. Please explain that one away.

[Kimpatsu]

Thank you, Aaron. Very good. Where did this fundie come from, anyway?

[elder999]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
Then how do you explain that they've used the most powerful telescopes available today to search the north sky and find no stars there?

Also you didn't address the second verse that talks about the springs in the sea, which refers to the natural springs of water that come up at the bottom of the ocean. Please explain that one away.

Well, natural springs also exist all over the earth, and are readily apparent.

Springs are water.....

And the ocean is water...

It's only natural conjecture-all that water must come from somewhere..

As for the North sky thing....uh, that's just wrong!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Alex Parks
Then how do you explain that they've used the most powerful telescopes available today to search the north sky and find no stars there?
What do you mean, there are no stars in the north sky? Look at this picture! (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/stellar/scenes/seikei_e/s70.htm)
Originally posted by Alex Parks
Also you didn't address the second verse that talks about the springs in the sea, which refers to the natural springs of water that come up at the bottom of the ocean. Please explain that one away.
No, it doesn't refer to that at all. There are many possible explanations that are more likely. You are force-fitting the facts retrospectively in an attempt to prove your preconceptions.
Now, how about all the scientific inaccuracies I've pointed out?

[Alex Parks]

I guess the real bottom line here is this, to me the things I have stated are sufficient evidence for me to believe what I do. They aren't for you, which is too bad, but I can understand based on the arguments you've given. There are still too many questions and irregularities for you. I can see that. To be honest, I don't think there's any amount of "proof" that I could give you that would change your mind, short of God himself coming before you. Even then I don't think that would change a thing. I have just as much trouble with the big bang theory and the evolutionary theory that we came from apes as you do with theism. At this point I'm going to bow out of this conversation and concede that we will always disagree.

Regards,

[Kimpatsu]

You don't get it, Alex; what you call eviednec is nothing of the kind.
I'll give you something your god could do: just make me a believer, immediately, painlessly, with the knowledge why implanted in my mind in toto.
Failing that, resurrect my grandparents.
But don't call "evidence" what in reality is misinterpretation. It's a disservice to those of us who do deal in facts.
TIA,

[Cady Goldfield]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
This is not a scientific claim! Don't be ridiculous! What on earth do you think this is saying? Please be specific. You think the Bible has scientific ingormation? Ity claims pi is 3, and that the earth is flat! It says that heaven is hotter than hell (the light of the moon times seven), that rabbits chew cud, that insects have four legs, and it mentions a talking ass and other mythical beasts!
The writer had NO scientific knowledge! What a dumb thing to say! Please explain to me what this is supposed to mean? :rolleyes:
TIA,

You forgot to mention that it also states that women with normal menstrual periods are "unclean," and that women are just the baby-growing vessels for men's "seed," which is the sole source of a baby. If a women didn't get pregnant, it was never because there was anything wrong with the man's "seed," it was because her womb was defective.

Oh yeah, and "in the beginning," before Adam and Eve, there were people - men and women - on the Earth: "Male and female, made He them."

A natural science text, it ain't.