kendo kamae

[Daishi]

Idle thoughts were drifting through my head one day and one decided to stop. Chuden kamae in kendo is a forward facing, very linear posture, where as in many kenjutsu ryu the posture is very much more oblique. In aikido too, there is an oblique stance both in empty hand and (I think) aiki-ken. Any thoughts about the reason of this difference? This is just a theory of mine (I could be wrong) Is the overtly offensive nature of kendo make it more practical to always be ready to launch the quickest attack rather than avoid the incoming attack then strike, therefore rendering an oblique stance impractical for kendo.

Dale heisler

[John Lindsey]

I think the forward facing kamae is related to the footwork and the ability to move quickly. I have seen people doing Itto-ryu showing a similar forward style.

Here is an old kendo photo showing a more traditional style of kamae...

[IZA]

wow! the picture looks really old. when where was this taken? :)

[Charlie Kondek]

Interesting pic! Is the fellow on the left wielding not a sword but a jo? His left hand is forward, not his right, and it's quite a bit forward.

[Soulend]

There is an essay ('Where Do You Stand?') on this in Dave Lowry's book, 'Traditions', for those that own this book.

I had always assumed that this was due to a forward-facing stance being faster to go forward and backward, while a more oblique stance possibly being better to sidestep and avoid. Could be wrong though, of course.

[Charlie Kondek]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
Interesting pic! Is the fellow on the left wielding not a sword but a jo? His left hand is forward, not his right, and it's quite a bit forward.

Sorry, I meant the fellow on the RIGHT.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek


Sorry, I meant the fellow on the RIGHT.

That would be juken/bayonet.

FWIW, with limited target selections, there would be no "point" in taking hanmi (pardon the pun) :D

Also, by squaring the hips, you would get a better tobikomi as when hips are not squared, a lot of the pushing forward force would be absorbed by the left hip turning forward from the pushing off rather than moving you forward...

:D

[Earl Hartman]

The kendo stance is best for:

1) srtiking with a shinai as opposed to cutting with a sword
2) very quick in-and-out movement on a smooth surface
3) straight ahead stikes
4) quick 1-2 combinations suited for shinai sparring

A hanmi stance is best for:

1) cutting kesa (obliquely) with a sword
2) keeping a firm, stable stance for cutting impact
3) presenting less of a target to the enemy
4) keeping one's footing on an uneven surface

Based on what I have seen, while kendo insists on the right-foot-always-forward, straight-ahead stance at all times, traditional sword stlyes are much more flexible in their approach, offering a combination of both stances, depending on the situation (armored battlefield fighting or unarmored duelling). Also, as has been pointed out before by many other more knowledgable people than I on this board, many older styles eschew the straight ahead kendo style men-uchi, since it would be pretty much impossible (and uneconomical as well) to try to cut through a good kabuto with a standard katana, and base themselves on kesa cuts, for which a hanmi stance is more suited.

[Charlie Kondek]

What is a hanmi stance exactly? Is that the stance of the person on the left in the photo above?

[gendzwil]

Hanmi is turned sideways to some degree - both of the players are hanmi. In kendo kata the waki-gamae in yonhonme is hanmi, while hasso on the other side is not (although many people do that one hanmi as well).

[DCPan]

Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
What is a hanmi stance exactly? Is that the stance of the person on the left in the photo above?

Han-Mi = half-body (in kanji)

Are you saying you haven't practiced the kodachi portion of the kendo kata yet? :D (just poking fun, pardon the pun)

By the way the photo looks though, both people are in han-mi.

The kendo kodachi portion of the kata though, differs from other hanmi that I've learned, at least in the direction of the foot.

For the kendo kodachi kata, I was taught at some point to do it such that both feet are still parallel, but now they point somewhat to the left, 45 degrees for both.

In classic hanmi, I believe the leading foot still points forward, the rear foot points anywhere from 45 degrees to the side your body is facing and/or perpendicular to the leading foot direction, depending on how deep the stance is.

Again, your mileage may vary :D

[Charlie Kondek]

Haha! Very informative. Kata? What's kata?

:D

I have indeed practiced the kodachi kata, just never heard this word before. Why waste perfectly good Japanese on me, tee hee!

[IZA]

The guy on the right side- JUKENDO?

[John Lindsey]

Jukendo on the right is correct. This photo dates to before the war and was taken on board a Japanese navy ship...

[IZA]

ah! i see, thank you . its very interesting who could have won the match? kendo or jukendo?

[DCPan]

Originally posted by IZA
ah! i see, thank you . its very interesting who could have won the match? kendo or jukendo?

The thing is, the match isn't really fair.

The shinai is quite a bit longer than the katana.

The mock juken is the same dimensions as a real bayonet.

So, the swordsman has "more" reach than he otherwise would have with a shinken.

From the matches that I've seen, the kendo person usually has more reach with katate-tsuki, so... :D

[IZA]

i see no katate tsuki for the Jukendo right? otherwise... but he could use the gun right? :D