Ono Ha Itto Ryu and Daito Ryu

[cguzik]

Tokimune Takeda said in his interviews with Stanley Pranin that practice of Ono Ha Itto Ryu is integral in the practice of Daito Ryu. Based on this comments, it is clear that he was taught kenjutsu by his father, as an integrated practice with the jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aiki no jutsu of Daito Ryu. He also stated that while it is integral to the study of Daito Ryu, that it would take too much time to teach it to *all* students.

In comparison, from what I have read, Ueshiba Sensei did not teach Ono Ha Itto Ryu, even in the days when what he was teaching was clearly recognized as Daito Ryu. This seems strange, does it not? Does anyone have any information regarding to what extent Sokaku Takeda Sensei may have taught Ono Ha Itto Ryu to Ueshiba Sensei?

Can anyone comment on what level of consistency exists across Sokaku Takeda Sensei's students with regard to incorporation of Ono Ha Itto Ryu with their teaching of Daito Ryu? What level of emphasis is placed on kenjutsu study within different branches?

Best,

Chris

[glad2bhere]

Dear Chris:

Only as far as the oral tradition that the Hapkido Arts relate to Daito-ryu AJJ can I speak to the relationship that you mention. Indeed many if not most of the Hapkido arts have weapons work and many times this includes sword work. However, my experience has been that this tends to be more a function of the need to represent the particular art in question as a Mu-Do or martial way (Jap: Bu-Do) than because the underpinnings of Hapkido may have been Daito-ryu and so would likewise include sword. If I were to draw a parallel the first thing that comes to mind is the work of the late Sensei Mochizuki as compared to Tomiki. Had DRAJJ and OHIR been truely integrated it would stand to reason that both traditions proceeding from the root would have represented the material equally, yes?

Just as an observation from an outsider, I have noticed that the level of sword work within Daito-ryu seems to represented very un-evenly across the range of various groups. This is usually a pretty good indication that the true relationship between the MT Hand work and the sword work was pretty tenuous in my book. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Nathan Scott]

Hello,

Tokimune Takeda said in his interviews with Stanley Pranin that practice of Ono Ha Itto Ryu is integral in the practice of Daito Ryu.

This is a well known quote, but it is interesting that other Daito ryu teachers who were also students of Tokimune's father did not state similar feelings. The only other well known teacher who is known to have included Itto ryu into their curriculum is Sagawa Sensei, and he learned these lines from other teachers.

Based on this comments, it is clear that he was taught kenjutsu by his father, as an integrated practice with the jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aiki no jutsu of Daito Ryu.

Your jumping to conclusions, even if it is a logical conclusion. While it may be accurate to say that Daito ryu is based on sword techniques and theories, it would also be accurate to say the same about other jujutsu styles.

The subject of Tokimune and Ono-ha itto ryu has been discussed at length before on the Aikido Journal forum. There are other dynamics involved with this subject that are not generally known. But these discussions are worth reading:

Sokaku's instructors (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000028)

Ono-ha-Itto-ryu (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000029)

Kondo & ono ha itto Ryu (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000143)

Itto-ryu kenjutsu (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000147)

People who received menkyo kaiden from Takeda Tokimune (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000041)

He also stated that while it is integral to the study of Daito Ryu, that it would take too much time to teach it to *all* students.

That is an interesting statement, and to me, is not logical. Most koryu would teach a number of methods/weapons under an integrated operating system. Teaching sword and jujutsu together is not something that should be unrealistic, especially if the two are so closely connected.

In comparison, from what I have read, Ueshiba Sensei did not teach Ono Ha Itto Ryu, even in the days when what he was teaching was clearly recognized as Daito Ryu. This seems strange, does it not? Does anyone have any information regarding to what extent Sokaku Takeda Sensei may have taught Ono Ha Itto Ryu to Ueshiba Sensei?

Up until ca. 1898, it would appear that Sokaku focused primarily on weapons methods, sword in particular. In 1898, Saigo Tanomo is said to have taught Sokaku the Aizu-han Oshikiuchi art, and advised him to focus on teaching empty handed methods from then on. It looks like Sokaku may have taught Daito ryu jujutsu and Ono-ha itto ryu for some time after, but at some point Sokaku stopped formally teaching OIR.

My guess would be that Sokaku did not teach OIR to Ueshiba, which is why Ueshiba researched other sword styles in later years. I suspect most if not all of the other students of Sokaku who formed branches that are still extant were also not taught (or licensed in) any large amount of OIR formally, which is why it is not taught within these branches.

Can anyone comment on what level of consistency exists across Sokaku Takeda Sensei's students with regard to incorporation of Ono Ha Itto Ryu with their teaching of Daito Ryu? What level of emphasis is placed on kenjutsu study within different branches?

Nope.

Some branches may contain more or less kenjutsu study than others, but I would be surprised if any of the branches encouraged their students to go cross train in other arts that specialize in sword.

IMO, having an firm rooting in swordsmanship can help a student of jujutsu better understand their techniques - and most certainly, the clear relationships between the two arts. However, those jujutsu-ka that don't know swordsmanship can obviously still learn jujutsu methodology. They will simply have a different perspective on why things work and why techniques were put together in a given way. It doesn't hurt to know swordsmanship, but I wouldn't say that someone without such knowledge could not understand and excel in jujutsu, necessarily.

Regards,

[A. M. Jauregui]

Sent you a PM Chris Guzik.

Since I am leaving in a few days please do not repost or PM anyone my PM to you. I do not have time for a question and answer session... Sorry.
I truly hope that what little information I have provided is useful to you.

[cguzik]

Bruce, Nathan, and Ana,

Thank you all for your replies. Very helpful and very much appreciated!

Chris