Martial Arts infidelity

[kage110]

This is another spin off of the Dojo Dating thread...

Is it proper, permissible, acceptable - call it what you will - to train in one main martial art but go off and dabble in other arts at the same time? Should we, dedicate ourselves to one art alone or are we allowed to be 'unfaithful' and try multiple arts, even at the same time?

This is a different question to whether it is a good idea, from the point of learning a martial art, to train in multiple arts at the same time.

Personally I am studying MA to master myself through the study of personal combat rather than trying to master a particular art. I get very upset at the idea that sensei A will not allow me to train with sensei B because of thoughts of disloyalty.

Where do you stand?

[Ade]

The man who chases two rabbits at once catches neither.
(Unless he has a shot gun and a lurcher in which case it's rabbit stew again!)

[StanLee]

The rule at Shiseikan dojo (my own sensei's teacher Inaba sensei) states that one must not practice another art unless they have been given authorisation by their headmaster.

By the way, there's judo, aikido, kenjutsu, kendo and kyudo at the shiseikan.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

I study 2 arts mainly because they complement each other.

I really don't see what harm it can do, I think some teachers are scared about letting the teachings of there arts out to other people and also because thry might loose students.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Ade
The man who chases two rabbits at once catches neither.
(Unless he has a shot gun and a lurcher in which case it's rabbit stew again!)

True but unless you tasted rabbit, beef, chicken, pork or even kangaroo, you wouldn't know which meat is best for you.

I do agree that it is usually more productive to dedicate oneself to one style but only if you are sure that you are doing what is best for you. Until then, shop around.

[Budoka 34]

I study Karate and Jiujitsu with my Shihan and his cadre of Instructors.
He has given me permission, at times, to train in Karate, Kobudo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Judo, and Several styles of Chinese MA and TCM all with instructors he felt would benefit my long term growth and understanding as a martial artist.

One thing I have come to truely believe(IMHO)is that all martial arts are related either physically, emotionally or spiritually.
Focus on your art, but not at the cost of developing a deeper understanding of it.

As I've said in the past it's all related.


:smilejapa

[kirigirisu]

Matter of respect and your own personal relationship with your instructor.

Personally, I wouldn't cross-train unless my instructor knew I was crosstraining (getting his "approval" or "permission" notwithstanding. That's a dynamic based on whatever the terms of your student-teacher relationship is).

I've been fortunate enough to have had instructors who have no problem with cross-training with the caveat that until I've developed some semblance of real understanding that I keep the training "separate" and somewhat compartmentalized.

Not a problem with me, might be with others.

[Shitoryu Dude]

I rather think that taking up two arts at the same time is best left until you have reached a very good understanding of the first one. You are most likely not the best judge of how well you know your primary art, but can most likely tell if you are going to start getting your kata styles all screwed up.

Learning additional arts is usually a good idea for most people as it allows you to develop a deeper understanding of both styles.

:beer:

[glad2bhere]

I study and teach Yeon Mu Kwan Hapkido. I have been studying since 1985 and teaching since 1995. Before I started training in Hapkido I trained in Shudokan Karate, Taekwondo, and Aikido. I feel that it was fair to shop around and find the art that best reflected what direction I hoped that my MA career would take. The difference was that once I found Hapkido and dedicated myself to it (Black Belt) there is not the option of studying something that does not directly supprt my Hapkido. For instance, I know that traditional Hapkido is weak in ground work when compared with something like BJJ. Fine, I take the art as I find it. On the other hand Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido has used Kendo/Kumdo for its swordwork, causing me to seek out being accepted by an exceptional swordsman here in Chicago and I have incorporated more traditional Kum Bup into my Hapkido than the more Japanese oriented Kendo-esque material.

If I am reading myself right, what I am advocating is making the art of your selection better as opposed to stepping outside of your own art to another art and trying to meld the two together.

I am afraid this isn't coming out very clear but I know what I am trying to get across and in short, I don't support trying to blend to separate arts. However, if by attending a, say, BJJ seminar, you find yourself doing your traditional Judo better, I think that is part of our responsibility to our arts. Does this make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Evan London]

My teacher actively recommends occasionally training in other MAs. It challenges your skills and gets you thinking about where you need work when you work on your main art.

Ev

[Kusarigama]

It goes like this guys.

If your Soke/Instructor/Trainer/Sensei/Sifu/Whatever says "don't do it", "DON'T DO IT".

He/She have their reasons and if you don't like them find another place or Martial Art to study.

Most Traditional Ryu take what they do VERY seriously. They tend to be very zealous in protecting their traditions and the purity thereof.

Out of respect for their traditions, you should either comply with their request or move on.

On the other hand, if they say it is ok, Go for it until they direct you otherwise.


:D

[kirigirisu]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
I rather think that taking up two arts at the same time is best left until you have reached a very good understanding of the first one. You are most likely not the best judge of how well you know your primary art, but can most likely tell if you are going to start getting your kata styles all screwed up.
:beer:

Goes without saying, usually.

But then again, some idiot 20-year old with aspirations of becoming an "Ultimate Martial Arts Hardcore Matrix Fighting Warrior Ninjer Master Guy" by combining some Tae-bo, stuff he learned from watching UFC's II through whatever the hell number they're up to now, the three years of TKD he had back in Middle School because his parents thought it would help him with his ADD, and free "trial" lessons from the 3 local McDojos has many more problems to begin with than screwing up kata from different schools.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by kage110
Is it proper, permissible, acceptable - call it what you will - to train in one main martial art but go off and dabble in other arts at the same time? Should we, dedicate ourselves to one art alone or are we allowed to be 'unfaithful' and try multiple arts, even at the same time?
We did discuss this once before in another thread, but:
No, cross-training is a betrayal of your sensei. Your sensei is your parent and the most important person in your life. You cannot bertray them in this fashion; even attempting to do so should make you feel bad. That's the ethical consideration.
Now for the practical one: you are far better off training in one art four times a week than in two arts twice a week. You won't advance twice as fast with the single art; you'll progress even faster, as there is no conflict of style, and because understanding ("enlightenment") of the art is cumulative.
So from both ethical and practical perspectives, you should stick to one art.

[meat]

We only train 2-3 times a week at my jujutsu class, due to my sensei's personal commitments, so I have had to seek out additional training. I study Chen TaiChi once a week and am thinking of adding a judo class or going back to bjj once a week. The judo/bjj are both derivative styles of what I am already doing, so I feel they can only help my jujutsu. My Sensei actively encourages us to go out and see other schools, train with them etc, because it's important to gain exposure to what else is out there and how other people train.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by meat
My Sensei actively encourages us to go out and see other schools, train with them etc, because it's important to gain exposure to what else is out there and how other people train.
Your sensei encourages you to dojo break?!

[kage110]

My sensei has no problem with me trying other forms of training. In fact he actively encourages me to do so but does not always do so with other people. I guess he makes his decision on a student by student basis

Bruce (glad2bhere) said it first:

If I am reading myself right, what I am advocating is making the art of your selection better as opposed to stepping outside of your own art to another art and trying to meld the two together.

I am not out to learn a set of techniques, I am trying to learn skills to help me survive in any situation.

I am probably too keen on maintaining my own individual freedom to allow myself to tie myself to one particular art or one particular sensei. Different strokes for different folks.;)

[Kimpatsu]

So you'd steal from your sensei if it helped to improve your financial situation? What about stealing from your parents? Would you do that, too?
Tying yourself to a sensei is what being a budoka means. If you're looking for shortcuts, buy a gun. You cn't act like Obi-Wan Kenobi that way, but you can't in self-defence for real, anyway. And a gun is a lot more realistic than dojo-hopping in search of quick and easy answers.

[kage110]

So you'd steal from your sensei if it helped to improve your financial situation? What about stealing from your parents? Would you do that, too?
Tying yourself to a sensei is what being a budoka means. If you're looking for shortcuts, buy a gun. You cn't act like Obi-Wan Kenobi that way, but you can't in self-defence for real, anyway. And a gun is a lot more realistic than dojo-hopping in search of quick and easy answers.

I am not sure what you are getting at, Tony. How do you get from 'being encouraged to learn from many sources' to 'stealing from my teacher'? I don't steal from my sensei in a financial sense as he does not make a living from teaching the MA. I don't steal his techniques as he gives me what he thinks I should have on the basis of what he knows about me. He encourages me to learn and develop in all areas of my life and acknowledges that he can't teach me everything I want, or need, to know. This man is my friend even more than he is my martial art teacher and as he is not as well off as me I have actually helped support him in a number of ways, inside and outside of the dojo.

As far as stealing from my parents...My family means a lot to me and I support them in many ways, including financially when required, as they support me. However, my relationship with my surviving parent is not a typical parent/child relationship in that I have always been encouraged to go out and make my own way in the world. My parents never, ever claimed to be the last word on anything and they have always supported me in whatever I have done, even if that was counter to their basic beliefs.

I actually envy those of you who have a really close student/teacher tie where you have apprenticed yourselves to one art and perhaps one person but it doesn't work for me and there is no reason it should work for everyone. Believe me, if I can find that one person who can teach me all I want to know...I will stick to them like glue! However, I do not believe anyone is the last word on anything and certainly not over my own judgement.

Respectfully,

[Vapour]

I have to agree with kage here. If you paid your fees and the instructor taught what you paid for, it is called commercial transaction not stealing.

If you getting into whole issue of instructor is giving you more than that, flip side is that he is demanding more than money from you. It is still exchange transaction if not commercial. I'm not saying it is entirely bad if you like whole respect and honour stuff. Just that I found this "do martial arts and become a better person" thingy to be bit :moon:. The worst manifestation of this is in taichi, another arts I practice.

My judo instructor (another Japanese national) actually tell every senior student (as in not being teengager) to call him by his first name outside dojo. To be honest, I find it impossible to call him by his first name when I'm talking to him in Japanese. But we both know that it is matter of etiquet and not because my instrucot is a better person.

[meat]

I agree with everything that was said in the post above, but would also like to add something. For starters, jujutsu is my main art and always will be, just because I choose to do something else for some fun does not mean I am betraying my sensei. If you went to an archery class and then decided you'd like to learn the flute on a free day, where is the problem? I'm not talking about stealing techniques from anyone. I want to go out and see what other people's points of view are. Just because someone does something differently it doesn't mean I should just pretend it doesn't exist. Knowledge is power, only listening to one person's view and shutting out everything else is stupid.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Vapour
I have to agree with kage here. If you paid your fees and the instructor taught what you paid for, it is called commercial transaction not stealing.
Commercial transactions are the antithesis of budo. This is not about being a karateya; pay me $5 and I teach you one technique; pay me another $5 and I teach you the next technique. Your sensei is your parents, but he's also your wife. If you don't sleep around, why play around with arts other than the one to which you vowed loyalty, forsaking all others, just like marriage? For that, and that alone, is true budo.

[Vapour]

Just to bring an example, Morihei Ueshiba learned Aikijujitu from Takeda Sokaku in exactly the fashion you described. Morihei paid for each technique. Takeda Sokaku also demand all of his kyoju dairi (instructor certificate holder including Ueshiba), 2 (or 3) yen for each student they teach, a considerable sum at that time. Of course, students did maintain respectable relationship to Takeda Sokaku but money do always come into it if it is Iemoto system.

Anyway, I did mention different exchange relationships, the one based on money and the other based of respect (obedience?). In reality, there are no purely respect or money based relationship. Even in marriage, money is BIIIIG problem, isn't it.

The one thing you are missing here is that at least in non feudal soceity, any sort of exchange relationship whether it is based on money, respect or love (in case of marriage) should be concensual. As title indicate, some people do indeed get pissed off if someone don't date him/her exclusively but there is absolutely nothing you can do about it except of disegaging relationship. But if you are charging him/her money, at this point, I think you sort of taking yourself out of that disengaginment option, IMO.

And I should remind you that instructor can have as many students as he like just like having many wife is o.k. in some society while wife (student) can't have as many husband (instructor) as s/he like. This bring to the core of the problem.

This arrangement work because there are underlying assumption of inequality between husband/wife and instructor/student. Now I don't go like feminist nazi and go around insisting calling every instructor by their first name even if they prefered to be called sensei. I just do it as etiqute, not because of my feeling that good student (wife) is a obedient one.

You might think respect thing is essential to budo. True, but more correct thing is to say that respect=obedient thing is essential to ORIENTAL martial arts. And one can have teacher/student relationship with respect without obedience.

[Amir]

Mt teacher is actually teaching more then one M.A. and so he can actively recommend some students to shift Art or add another M.A. to their studies.

He also encourages us to learn from more then one source, I.E. find other GOOD teachers and learn from them, at least for a while. Each teacher has a different concept of Budo and Martial practice. If one is to find his own way, one must find more sources of info.

He often compares this to the person who read just single book on a subject versus the one whom has read several books. The first may have chosen a great book, by a well known writer, but he would only get that writers point of view. Any claims that contradict the writer are likely to escape him. The second reader, is much more likely to have encountered disagreement between the writers, and had to think to himself. Hence his understanding of the subject will be much better...

As for the moral issue: It's only a problem if you make it a problem. If you are honest and doesn't hide anything from your teacher, why should there be any problem ?
I know my system founder learned more then one Koryu style in early 20th century Japan. One of our Shihans has been learning Koryu weapons styles before he joined our system, in the 50s & 60S Japan, those teacher recommended each-other and sometimes wouldn't accept him, unless he went to learn something else with another teacher first (He wanted to learn Ksarigama, they sent him to learn Naginata first who sent him to learn Nito as well who sent him toKenjutsu and Wakizashi study ...). And there are numerous older and well documented prominent figured in budo, whom have learned more then one style. So why should it be wrong ?

The only infidelity could be in the deception of your teacher. If you don't do that - I can see no problem!

Amir

[kage110]

If you don't sleep around, why play around with arts other than the one to which you vowed loyalty, forsaking all others, just like marriage? For that, and that alone, is true budo.

Tony, that seems to be a very Christian definition of what marriage is about. And again, it is down to the relationship you have with your teacher or your wife. If honesty is present then what is the problem? Adultery is about betrayal, it does not have to be interpreted as ‘having any relations with someone other than you wife/teacher’.

Going back to me for a second :p, I would be happy to learn one art to the exclusion of all others. I even know the art I want to learn but I cannot follow that path right now because there are no teachers available near where I live. Even if there were the only ones I would really want to devote myself to are in Japan so I would have to make major changes to my life to accomplish this. In the meantime I learn what I can from who I can and try to be honest with everyone I meet.

[Kimpatsu]

Agreed; adultery is about betrayal.
So don't adulterate your art, and don't betray your sensei.

[kage110]

Agreed. But it is only betrayal if it is against their wishes. If my instructor wishes for me to cross-train then by not cross-training I would be betraying him, wouldn't I?

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Agreed; adultery is about betrayal.
So don't adulterate your art, and don't betray your sensei.

Infidelty works both way, husband and wife. If student is not allowed to have any other instructor, why instructor can screw around by having as many students as he can at one time. If someone think martial art adultery is wrong, s/he should apply the standard to himself/herself first by exculsively devoting to one student at one time.

The argument that husband (instructor) can deal with four wife (student) don't work in my view. That only work if you lower your teaching standard. In top level sports, there is one coach (or even more) per one athlet.

Lastly, if any martial instructor demanded such standard in feudal time, he wouldn't have had any students. It was matter of life and death to know all aspect of combat from sword, hoseriding, archery and jujutu to spear. So every *practicing* samurai learned from as many good teachers as they can. So I really wonder where the idea of loyalty-to-one-martial-arts-instructor-essential-to-budo come from?

[kage110]

Lastly, if any martial instructor demanded such standard in feudal time, he wouldn't have had any students. It was matter of life and death to know all aspect of combat from sword, hoseriding, archery and jujutu to spear. So every *practicing* samurai learned from as many good teachers as they can. So I really wonder where the idea of loyalty-to-one-martial-arts-instructor-essential-to-budo come from?

Exactly!

This reminds me of a e-mail exchange I am having with someone else recently (is that e-mail adultry?:D ). What does 'traditional' style, or 'traditional' methods of teaching, or 'traditional' Japanese mean? How far back do you go to become 'traditional'? 100 years? 300 years? 500 years? 1000?....

Tony, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't Shorinji Kempo a relatively new style, ie. codified in the 20th Century? I know it's roots go way deeper and I am not implying that it is not worthy because it is new (far from it, SK - sorry - seems like a very interesting art from my perspective) but is it's emphasis on loyalty a new idea or an older one?

[Kimpatsu]

Old, Hugh. The idea that you don't cross-train has been around in Japan since the year dot. Not only is it a slap in the face to your instructor, turning up at another dojo is an automatic challenge to that dojo's authority.

[Iain]

From a practical perspective, it's best to shop around for a decent dojo and settle down for a good long while when you find one. After you have a decent grounding in your art of choice, you can go on to cross-train or maybe even take up a second art altogether. It makes you a more rounded and competent fighter, and it also exposes you to new ideas that will allow you to improve your existing skills.

From an ethical position, you should find out whether or not your dojo approves of cross training. Of course, if your doing as you should and staying around for the long haul, the dojo mentality should be obvious to you by the time cross-training even becomes an issue. I know students who have left Korean dojos and owe their lives to the fact that their instructor was a raging alcoholic and couldn't put the kick where it was supposed to go (not to cast aspersions on said instructors skills -he was amazing- he was just a drunken jackass).

Personally, if it were my decision alone, I could care less where people under me train as long as they do what they're supposed to during class, it makes no difference to me whether they go to another dojo, go the strip club, or pour melted chocolate on their nipples and let their cat lick it off. If however, you attend a dojo that espouses Tonys point of view, then abide by the rules set down. If you want to train somewhere else bad enough, straight up quit and start anew.

[Jock Armstrong]

Tony, I have to disagree. Instructors in Japan would often recommend students to other teachers and give students letters of introduction. It was the same on Okinawa. Miyagi recommended that students who really wanted to develop their kicking skills go to Chotoku Kyan. Guys who wanted " real time" combative training went to Motobu Choki. They did this while still training under their regular instructor. Funakoshi didn't like his students training with Motobu because he thought he was, frankly, a thug- then again Motobu considered Funakoshi to be a snob so they were hardly likely to get along- but Funakoshi couldn't stop them from doing so.
Lots of bujutsu ryuha can trace their origins to an instructor who studied at TKSR and then went off on his own to teach what he had learned there and in other places . They injected their concepts and experience into their teaching, made new kata to illustrate their points. It doesn't make the later dojo less legit. I've been at this game for 23 years now. I've trained in quite a few different arts. What I teach is goshinjutsu. There are elements in there that come from karate, kempo, boxing,jujutsu, aikido, kali/arnis and judo. Sometimes all I learned was that I didn't want to do things that way but it was still a learning experience. My original instructor is still my sensei. He recommended me to instructors when I travelled to other places. As a result I learned variations of technique which I wouldn't have learned otherwise. I improved my throwing and grappling [my sensei was foremost a kick/punch guy but taught basic grapple/throw- he recommended a jujutsu sensei he knew because I expressed an interest and some natural ability in that area]. In Australia the Karate Instructors Association -KIA [gotta love that!!]- actually had jujutsu and judo teachers in it. We used to hold seminars and learn from each other. MA wise it was the absolute best time of my life. I've trained with Benny the Jet, Wally Jay, Inoue sensei [Hontai Yoshin Ryu] and Cacoy Canete of Doce pares arnis and I'm the richer for it.
I admire your loyalty Tony. If you want to train exclusively in one art please do so but be careful of using words like betrayal or stealing- I've betrayed no-one. My senior students have brought back tech from other dojos over the years which have been added to our curiculum to good effect. They've cross trained a lot but always come back to share.
I encourage it. :beer:

[Kimpatsu]

I understand the mitual dislike between Motobu and Funakoshi, but to say that Funakoshi "couldn't stop his students going elsewhere" simply isn't true. He could have refused to teach them at any time.
Besides, Jock, what of the political problems in Shotokan these days? Membership of one organisation autmoatically disqualifies training at dojo belonging to the other. I don't know all the ins and outs of this, but I know of one person caught out by it. It's like a turnstile; you can go through to the other side, but can't come back again.
Cross-training has traditionally been frowned upon in Japan. Were Motobu and Funakoshi both Shotokan? Because if so, there's no conflict there. Just try going to, say, a Kyokushin dojo while a registered Shotokan practitioner and see where that gets you. Your very presence will be regarded as a challenge, and dealt with as such.

[Vapour]

I have a feeling that someone is deliberately avoiding to respond to my comment.

Firstly, serve-one-lord only is fedual japanese concept. Now this got somehow adopted to *modern* martial arts. As I said, in feudal time, saumrai practiced multiple arts. Being loyal to my MASTER to the death is a budo concept even though in practice, quite few samurais changed his employment hence his master.

Secondly, as I stated, this "studen't having multipe instructor = *morally* wrong" is pretty much same as saying that husband can have four wives but it is morally wrong for wife to have multiple husband. Or put more simply, men can screw around but women can't. It's plain feudal. Since many people including women still adher to such value, I'm not suprised that some feudal value is still common in some section of martial arts. .

Thirdly, if people do want to get into this kind of relationship, it is not my business. Hey, if a girl want to covert to religion where some sect say women aren't even allowed to drive a car or obtain formal education, it is not my business to stop her. Just don't complain when I express my view that such practice is plain backward because it's just is.

Fourthly, I don't have problem when instructor advice student not to train in other arts because, say, particular arts is not good mix or what he expect from student in term of training commitment just won't allow extra arts or other *practical* reasons. My instructor advice me not to practice in one particular judo dojo, which I ignored. I paid for my ignorance by my left knee injury.

Lastly, even though I can't stop people from converting to or evangialsing this quasi religious practice, I'm still hoping that force of capitalism would eventually drive such outdated practice out of business. There are so many martial arts school and instructors who deliver the same quality of service without making demand for exclusive deal. And when students start to dry out, we will see whether "money is just token" cliam is really true or not.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Vapour
Firstly, serve-one-lord only is fedual japanese concept. Now this got somehow adopted to *modern* martial arts. As I said, in feudal time, saumrai practiced multiple arts. Being loyal to my MASTER to the death is a budo concept even though in practice, quite few samurais changed his employment hence his master.
Samurai changed their "employment" by defecting to the winning side in battle, or going AWOL. How is this not betrayal?
Originally posted by Vapour
Secondly, as I stated, this "studen't having multipe instructor = *morally* wrong" is pretty much same as saying that husband can have four wives but it is morally wrong for wife to have multiple husband. Or put more simply, men can screw around but women can't. It's plain feudal. Since many people including women still adher to such value, I'm not suprised that some feudal value is still common in some section of martial arts.
This is a strawman argument. A better analogy to use would be that of children and parents. Husbands and wives are equal, but sensei and student are not. Sensei can have more than one student, the same that parents can have more than one child.
Originally posted by Vapour
Thirdly, if people do want to get into this kind of relationship, it is not my business. Hey, if a girl want to covert to religion where some sect say women aren't even allowed to drive a car or obtain formal education, it is not my business to stop her. Just don't complain when I express my view that such practice is plain backward because it's just is.
But to use your own metaphor, people wishing to cross-train shouldn't then call what they do "budo".
Originally posted by Vapour
Lastly, even though I can't stop people from converting to or evangialsing this quasi religious practice, I'm still hoping that force of capitalism would eventually drive such outdated practice out of business. There are so many martial arts school and instructors who deliver the same quality of service without making demand for exclusive deal. And when students start to dry out, we will see whether "money is just token" cliam is really true or not.
Money is a token. The art is thus kept from being corrupted as a karateya, which is grubby and unethical.

[Jock Armstrong]

I think you'll find that the "political" problems in Shotokan or any other system come down to money, or rather the way its shared out.

Also, define "traditional". If you mean medieval Japan, the idea of complete loyalty to one school of MA doesn't hold up. As I mentioned before, people were given letters of intro to go and study under different teachers. "Traditional karate" has only been around since the thirties and shorinji kempo has only been around since the post war period [in its present form]. This does not invalidate them as arts- I have the utmost respect for these arts and their practitioners- I'm just find the term "traditional" an odd one to use for things of such recent derivation. What most people mean is Japanese,
If you mean Edo period Japan, you are looking at a time of stagnation, repression and control, utterly at odds with the spirit of previous times in Japan. Everything, even kabuki, until then a developing and dynamic form of entertainment was codified into the rigid conformist form it is today.
As for the SJK sensei refusing the KYKN guy- thats his perogative.
Since I don't know whether he wished to do both arts [though I suspect it] or he wanted to change over completely I can't comment on his attitude.
I've been to Kyokushin dojos in my own dogi [black] and wearing my own rank. It wasn't a challenge though I think a couple of younger fellas wanted to try out the gaijin.I had fun and no-one got hurt except for a winding [hit the big fella, he'll return the compliment]. If I went to learn kyokushin or any other system per se I'd wear a white belt. If I started Shorinji kempo I'd wear a kempo dogi and a white belt and pay attention.

If I went to challenge someone there would be no question of my intentions, believe me. Anyway, as smarter men than me have said before, you do as you will and be true to your own code of behaviour. Even if what you believe was the samurai way was indeed that, I'm not one- I have my own warrior tradition [Scottish border raiders]. I'm not trying to be one. After studying Japanese history, who'd want to be. I would like to emulate their best qualities however.
Plenty of Japanese crosstrain. I know a highly ranked Aikido instructor who regularly travels to Europe and the US who has ranks in Judo, karate and kenjutsu/iajutsu. He didn't get them by staying in his aikido dojo. :beer:

[Vapour]

Thank you for your response. :)

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Samurai changed their "employment" by defecting to the winning side in battle, or going AWOL. How is this not betrayal?


Ah no, that is lord switching their alliance. I'm talking about samurai changing "employment", that is him leaving a lord because he didn't like the job and getting the job from another lord just like how people switch or get fired from job in modern time. It happended. So let leave at that.


This is a strawman argument. A better analogy to use would be that of children and parents. Husbands and wives are equal, but sensei and student are not. Sensei can have more than one student, the same that parents can have more than one child.


Children can't have multiple parents not because it is morally wrong but it is physically impossible. Since we are talking moral imperative of *choice*, your analogy is just not on. Since we are talking about adults making *choice* of joining or not joining martial arts school, relationship between men and women (or for that matter men and men or women and women for political correct nazi) is more appropriate analogy.

Anyway, your instructor is your father/mother analogy enforce my view that it is based on assumption that instructor is somehow superior in some moral sence so s/he can enforce moral code which doesn't apply to him/her. As I said, one can believe what they want. But don't complain if someone call such belief backward.


But to use your own metaphor, people wishing to cross-train shouldn't then call what they do "budo".


Firstly, quite few japanese called Rickson Gracie, an obvious cross trainer, a samurai because he *fought*.

Anyway, anyone who make claim to being samurai should be able to do harakiri and all other sort of feudal practice. Or why women allowed to practice with men in martial arts. To be honest, I'm weary of "we are ancient samurai warrior :redhot: " nonsence. If someone want to be warrior, join army or at least become cop on the street instead of musterbating on fantasy of ancient warrior. And hey, you can't serve multiple country because these people do indeed fight to death. Martial arts school don't fight to death against each other and the fact that one hasn't fought in real battle doesn't seem to disqualify anyone from becoming martial arts instructor.

I give respect, if not agree, view expressed by veteran about the code of soldiers. But these people walked the walk.

I don't find problem when people take *inspiration*, like respect and dicipline, from some ancient practice. But in that case, you are obviously adopt what is good and discard what is bad. So I like to take blind obedience out from respect. Preaching such value in quasi fundametalist way is as stupid as saying that adulter should be stoned to death.


Money is a token. The art is thus kept from being corrupted as a karateya, which is grubby and unethical.

No, money as well as belief can corrupt. Have you heard of cult. Blind belif is as dangerous as naked greed while enlightend practice/belief and responsible business practice make school (or entire martial arts community) prosper in my view.

Anyway, I noticed that you practice Shorinji Kempo. Aren't they registered as a religious organization. In that case, why are we arguing. You are talking about faith, I'm taling about arts.

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by Vapour
You are talking about faith, I'm taling about arts.

Great post!

I crosstrain - I believe it is good for the spirit. It squashes egos, forges discipline, and encourages critical thinking. It instills self discipline and requires personal sacrifice.
Crucially, by providing more than one perspective on the anatomy of conflict, it provides the cross-trainer with additional tools for resolving or preventing conflict.

Ergo: cross-training = budo.

Slavish and uncritical devotion to the "one true path" = cult.

Cheers,

Mike

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Without cross training then how would you learn to defend against another style? I think the 'best' way to know how another style works is to have done it yourself. I think the best way to improve your martial arts is to have a few (not too many) that can compliment each other.

I don't think it would work if you did Tong Long Kung Fu and Caporeia, that would not make it fluid, maybe a korean kicking style with some Wing Chun chucked in :D (being cheeky)

Some of the best martial artist have studied more than one style, in fact I know this may sound brash and may well be wrong and some cases but I think many legendary martial artists have studied more than one style in there lifetime.

Obviously i'm not saying in 10 years time i'll be a Soke of Tai Rang Wing, but keep the practise of the 2 as 2, 2 different schools, 2 different teachers, 2 different gradings, 2 different uniforms.

But you are only 1 person, so it got to be used as one, knowledge acumulated and used to the best of its uses via entertainment or in a real like situation.

Cheers

[shugyosha]

there is the difference between the chinese philosophy and the japanese one regarding budo,
in china, the individual is what matter and if one needs the seek out another master to growh this will be encouraged

in the japanese culuture, you are just a part of a system, so if you start to claim your own independence, this is a betreyal of your ryu

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
Slavish and uncritical devotion to the "one true path" = cult.
No, devotion= loyalty. maybe you just haven't found anything worthy enough of such devotion.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, devotion= loyalty. maybe you just haven't found anything worthy enough of such devotion.

Devotion is when you put your time, effort and money (in some cases) into something you feel you should or wish to do, just because you are loyal does not make it a good thing, etc people who are loyal to Sadam Hussain...

Not questioning what people do or say and going along with it's thinkings as the devine truth is a cult as what many people do in the martial arts, people need keep an open mind and never get to absorbed in the things you do.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Vapour
To be honest, I'm weary of "we are ancient samurai warrior :redhot: " nonsence.
when did anyone here call themselves a samurai? Are you reading the same thread? :confused:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Devotion is when you put your time, effort and money (in some cases) into something you feel you should or wish to do, just because you are loyal does not make it a good thing, etc people who are loyal to Sadam Hussain...

Not questioning what people do or say and going along with it's thinkings as the devine truth is a cult as what many people do in the martial arts, people need keep an open mind and never get to absorbed in the things you do. On the other hand, Matt, you are not qualified to question Sensei, because you have the understanding of a 3YO in relation to the art. Sensei is your parent, remember.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
On the other hand, Matt, you are not qualified to question Sensei, because you have the understanding of a 3YO in relation to the art. Sensei is your parent, remember.

But your sensei is only a person the same as you and me, of course I respect him and treat him accordingly...but never take it as complete truth until you discover it for yourself, what works for one may not work for another.

A students style is never his Sensei's style, and if you suck to your sensei you will not develop as yourself. And you've got to remember that your sensei was a student as well so therefore you are not learning the 'Origianl' in the frist place, as soon as it goes away from the creating source it is never the original.

no one is the same, everyone does it differently...yes there is a technique but due to different body shapes this will never be concrete.

Martial Arts (in my view) is about adapting to your surrondings, to the people around you and most of all, and probably hardest, is adapting within yourself.

[heatMiser]

Tony,

I don't normally like to use examples in place of rational argument, but I'd like to know how Morihei Ueshiba fits into your ideas.

He trained in many arts, and had in Sokaku Takeda a Sensei in the traditional sense of the word. Was he a traitor for studying more than just Daito-Ryu, and for forming his own art? And are you saying that his studies were damaged by not sticking to one art?

If the student is obliged by the Sensei to train only with him, what demands is in acceptable for the student to make from the Sensei to justify this dedication?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
A students style is never his Sensei's style, and if you suck to your sensei you will not develop as yourself.
Are you really at the ha or ri stage already? How long have you been training?!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by heatMiser
I don't normally like to use examples in place of rational argument, but I'd like to know how Morihei Ueshiba fits into your ideas.
He was a genius. So was Kaiso. They can study more than one art because they can handle the overlaod. Besides, in Kaiso's case, he didn't cross-train so much as learn one art completely, and then move to the next.
It always causes me to grind my teeth on this site when people compare themselves to men of that stature. Get real. No one on this board is in their league.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
when did anyone here call themselves a samurai? Are you reading the same thread? :confused:

You justified your view on the argument that your way is essetnail to budo = "the way of samurai". I'm merely pointing out that it is rather stupid to justify your view solely on the basis thas samurai did it that way, because (1) historical reality didn't reflect the idealised version of the reality (2) even some samurai did practice blind loyalty to the house (not the arts, important distinction here), that is not justification for such practice at all. As I said, some society (even now) stone adulter to death because "god tell them to do it" or "that the way from the time eternal".

As I said, there is nothing to argue if it is matter of faith. But you have to justify your case on *practicality* rather than *faith* if there is more than point in being loyal for it's own sake.

However, there is no question that cross training is beneficial. Japanese police usually train in kendo, judo and aikido. Given that it is essential for police to know how to use banton (kendo), how to grapple (judo) and how to restrian suspect(aikido), cross training is matter of pracitical necessity for them.

Some karate may claim that they have grappling techniques but any honest karate practioner would know that they are no match in grappling against judoka or BJJ practioner. Many arts such as aikido, hapikdo practice weapon but it is unlikely that they have better teaching than some koryu school which specialised in one weapon such as sword, staff or naginata. Nor any of them think that they can outbox boxer because they use atemi.

The plain truth is that specialised school give better instruction to their specialised purpose. I can certainly accept the an argument that it is more *productive* to wait for cross training until one reach 3rd dan if you train every day. And if you wish to pursue the path of coaching, you wouldn't have time to waste your time on other arts (as in case of judo, for example).

So far you have given no single *practical* reason why one shouldn't cross train at all. All you seems to say, in essence, is that "this aint' right". That is why it is plain obvious that your view is matter of faith. And again, let me remind my view that such view is backward because it is just *impractical*.

[Ade]

Originally posted by Ade
The man who chases two rabbits at once catches neither.
(Unless he has a shot gun and a lurcher in which case it's rabbit stew again!)

I hate to quote myself.

But.

I have been the kenshi that walks through the door and when the teacher says "what have you done before?" told him the truth.
"I've tried 16 different martial arts and hold belts in about half of them."
The look on their faces would illustrate the dojo breakers thread perfectly.
I've also been the teacher on the end of such responses.

Ignoring the raging debate about betrayal, what about the confusion?

I've seen good kenshi quit because they were too confused to carry on.

It took me at least a year to stop re-chambering my back hand to my waist upon my return to Shorinji Kempo in 1990.
It confused me and disillusioned me.

I currently have several cross training kenshi in the club at junior level.
They'll never amount to anything until they make their mind up to catch one rabbit at a time.
Because they're learning to walk and trying to do so in two directions and two different ways as directed by two teachers.

Learn one way, then another, if you want.

But learn one way first.


Ade

PS My original teacher, Sensei Peter was at a drop in session with Jui jitsu and the teacher asked him "what do you want to do?

his reply "Treat me like a white belt, that's what I am in your dojo, a cup that's full has to empty itself before it can receive."

I am my teacher's student.

[heatMiser]

He was a genius. So was Kaiso. They can study more than one art because they can handle the overlaod. Besides, in Kaiso's case, he didn't cross-train so much as learn one art completely, and then move to the next.

'm well aware of the gulf between myself and such people. No pretentions were intended.

But I think that if you're going to train as hard as they did, then you are going to have to be at their level or do it the way your instructor/teacher recommends.

If you're like me, and you don't train that seriously, should you really have to make such a commitment to your teacher? If they are ok with it, and so am I, how can you criticise?

People who know more than you do about their respective arts are welcome to tell you what is and isn't acceptable in thier arts. You are saying that all cross-training not vetted and approved by a suitibly qualified person is betrayal. This is far too sweeping to be true.

On the other hand, On the strength of this thread alone, I'd be reluctant to dabble in Shorinji Kempo. You're saying that it is only for those who are dedicated and focused on it, and since I don't know better, I'll take that at face value. But only for Shorinji Kempo. Not for arts you don't have experience of.

[Ade]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
He was a genius. So was Kaiso. They can study more than one art because they can handle the overlaod. Besides, in Kaiso's case, he didn't cross-train so much as learn one art completely, and then move to the next.
It always causes me to grind my teeth on this site when people compare themselves to men of that stature. Get real. No one on this board is in their league.

Tony

Every man, woman and child on this board is worth exactly the same.
Nobody is above or beneath us.
I don't worship Doshin So, or Morihei Ueshiba, they have little to do with me or my sphere of experience.
Comparisons are worthless.
Don't try and deify Doshin So.
He had feet of clay, so do the Japanese, and the English and the rest of the world.

Ade

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Are you really at the ha or ri stage already? How long have you been training?!

No I am no were near those and I don't think I will for a long time because I still have alot to learn and my technique still needs ALOT of developing which will take a life time as will I always be Shu in a way.

Just because you are an independent thinker does not mean you don't respect and learn from your teacher.

Ha and Ri is not about magically waking up from a trance. It's about constantly developing yourself, Ha and Ri are Japanese ways of thinking that acompanies the japanese way of life, i am not japanese nor do i think like one.

Practice makes you better, not a person, they can only point you in the right direction and help you avoid obsticles and show you the right way.

Lean on them too much and you will never go forward...

It's a journey, not a destination as sometimes your way of thinking comes across, Ha and Ri are destinations.

If one has got their eye on the destination, they only have 1 eye left to find the right path.

Cheers

p.s.
If you really want to know (I've been chopping and changing for about 10 years, but i've been doing Collective Korean styles i.e. stuff from Taekwondo, Hwa Rang, Mook Duk Kwan etc. and Kamon Wing Chun for 4 1/2 years, training at 3 nights a week and all day Sunday.)

[heatMiser]

Ade,

being responsible for bringing the subject up, I should say that deification was not my intent, I was only poining out that there are martial artists who both practise multiple arts and whose abilities are not up for questioning.

Tony's comments were pitched to include these people, and I felt that this needed to be pointed out.

[Ade]

Originally posted by heatMiser
On the other hand, On the strength of this thread alone, I'd be reluctant to dabble in Shorinji Kempo. You're saying that it is only for those who are dedicated and focused on it, and since I don't know better, I'll take that at face value. But only for Shorinji Kempo. Not for arts you don't have experience of.

Mate

We're not all that intense.
Some of us live in this world.

Ade

[Ade]

Originally posted by heatMiser
...being responsible for bringing the subject up, I should say that deification was not my intent, I was only poining out that there are martial artists who both practise multiple arts and whose abilities are not up for questioning. Tony's comments were pitched to include these people, and I felt that this needed to be pointed out.

Tony's a big boy, his comments are his own. I have no doubt that Tony will stand by them, has anybody ever known him to admit that he's wrong?


Ade

[heatMiser]

Excellent. :)

Though I'm not given to dabbling in any case. (Bar an unfortunate end to my three months of Shaolin Kung Fu, but that's another story.)


:D

[heatMiser]

Originally posted by Ade
Tony's a big boy, his comments are his own. I have no doubt that Tony will stand by them, has anybody ever known him to admit that he's wrong?


Ade

What do you mean!?!

No-one has ever known him to BE wrong :D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by heatMiser
If you're like me, and you don't train that seriously, should you really have to make such a commitment to your teacher? If they are ok with it, and so am I, how can you criticise?
Because dilletantism is wrong in any endeavour.
Originally posted by heatMiser
People who know more than you do about their respective arts are welcome to tell you what is and isn't acceptable in thier arts. You are saying that all cross-training not vetted and approved by a suitibly qualified person is betrayal. This is far too sweeping to be true.
People who believe that don't understand the purpose of budo. You can bet good money on it.
Originally posted by heatMiser
On the other hand, On the strength of this thread alone, I'd be reluctant to dabble in Shorinji Kempo. You're saying that it is only for those who are dedicated and focused on it, and since I don't know better, I'll take that at face value. But only for Shorinji Kempo. Not for arts you don't have experience of.
You can't "dabble" in Shorinji Kempo; if you're not committed, don't come and waste our time, or yours. Go down the pub, instead. You'll find it more suited to you. I've seen groups where people lack commitment, and they aren't arts. They social clubs.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Ha and Ri is not about magically waking up from a trance.
Until you reach the stage of ha, you are not qualified to question what you are told. You can't make up a symbol "x" and say that henceforth, it will replace "d" in your lexicon. You are beholden to your sensei, and should do as he tells you becasue he knows so much more, and better, than you do.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by heatMiser
What do you mean!?!
No-one has ever known him to BE wrong :D
That's because I never AM wrong. :D

[Mike Williams]

Tony, would you mind addressing the point I made earlier:

Originally posted by Mike Williams
I crosstrain - I believe it is good for the spirit. It squashes egos, forges discipline, and encourages critical thinking. It instills self confidence [I originally wrote "discipline, but I was repeating myself] and requires personal sacrifice.
Crucially, by providing more than one perspective on the anatomy of conflict, it provides the cross-trainer with additional tools for resolving or preventing conflict.

Ergo: cross-training = budo.


If the characteristics described above are true, then how is crosstraining in conflict with (your) budo ideals?

If you feel the characteristics of cross-training are false, then why do you believe them to be so?

(side note to Ade: there is a world of difference between the glazed-eyed dojo-hopper who has dabbled in 16 different things, and the serious student who cross-trains in order to round out his martial skills. The "16 different things" guy is never going to be in it for the long run anyway - if he can't quit for another MA, he'll quit for a different hobby)

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Oh, and another excellent post by Youji Hajime. Keep 'em coming.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Mine too...

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
People who believe that don't understand the purpose of budo. You can bet good money on it.

Are you saying that historical samurai who cross trained in many arts (various weapons, jujitu, horseriding and so on) didn't know what the way of samurai (budo) was. ;)

Oh well, enough trolling. Anyway as of problem of confusion, I would say that when the art is totally different like kendo and karate or judo, it will cause less confusion. Another case which cause less confusion is when particular style practice set technique/kata in what one may say "natural" manner, that is judo or bjj or kendo, i.e. sparing based arts. On the other hand, karate, aikido, kung fu for example, perform technique in manner which are not meant to be done in real fight. In this case, confusion is certainly a problem but it would be less of a problem if instrucotr can explain to the student why certain technique/kata/forms are performed in such manner, especially in relation to the principle where such artificial form performance are aiming at.

I used to wonder why karate/kempo chamber their punch. I noticed while ago that, this will prevent beginner from raising shoulder. If beginner take boxing stance from the beginning, s/he will pick up bad habit of tense shoulder which may take long time to correct. Plus, with chamber, it is much easier to envision the power being generated from the hip. Obviously actual practioners of karate or kempo could lecture me far more about this topic but it just remind me that as long as one understand the proper context of training, there is no wrong way of training. This also apply to cross training, IMO.

[Kimpatsu]

The way of the samurai was bushido.
Anyway, I'm talking from a modern context, as all existing martial arts are modern.

[Ade]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
(side note to Ade: there is a world of difference between the glazed-eyed dojo-hopper who has dabbled in 16 different things, and the serious student who cross-trains in order to round out his martial skills. The "16 different things" guy is never going to be in it for the long run anyway - if he can't quit for another MA, he'll quit for a different hobby)

So glad I'm not serious and I quit.

I just don't seem to have an ability to remember having done so.

Ever heard of a job that forces you to travel when you're young?

Ade

3rd Dan Branch Master
For the past 10 years

[Mike Williams]

Hi Ade - I wasn't referring to you! Sorry if that's how it came across!

You mentioned (I think) your disdain for the kids who show up wanting to train after having dabbled in 16 other arts previously.

My point was that those kids are probably quitters anyway - and in any case are a rather extreme example of the dangers of cross-training.

Cheers,

Mike

[monkeyboy_ssj]

The sort that will say "Ooh! I've done that, and that, aaannd that."

Then you ask what grade and they'll never give you a straight answer ;)

Dojo jumping is never cross training, that's just doing many arts.

[charlesl]

Kimpatsu wrote:
The way of the samurai was bushido.
Anyway, I'm talking from a modern context, as all existing martial arts are modern.


Oh. Didn't know that. Do you ever get down to the koryu section of the board? Or do feel that those arts are modern becaused they're still practiced in modern times? Or what?

-Charles

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by charlesl
Do you ever get down to the koryu section of the board?
No, because I don't practice koryu. For the same reason, I never visit the Karate, Aikido, or other forums.

[elder999]

I’ll try to just say a few things, here.

Kyokushinkai, for starters, was influenced by many martial arts. Oyama’s group used to train with Yamaguchi Gogen’s, till they had a falling out, and when I was a child, Oyama Shigeru’s Kyokushinkai school was housed in a judo school, and we were encouraged to practice both. The way this art is practiced now also owes a great deal to muay thai.(OWW!)

As far as koryu goes, it was-and is-fairly common to be sent from one instructor to another, either when one had achieved menkyo, or for an area of specialization that the original instructor felt was best served by another instructor.

Since we are speaking of budo:I think it’s a fairly rare Japanese instructor who hasn’t attained dan ranking in at least one other art-probably judo, scholastically-and there are repeated instances of multiple dan rankings-though they come to only practice, teach and specialize in the one, more often than not.How can they help but be influenced by what they learned in those other arts, though?

I think it’s pretty much up to “whatever sensei says” for this one, and common sense-you really can’t chase two rabbits at once, and there really isn’t much point in constantly dabbling. My jujutsu teacher actually encouraged participation in other forms of martial art, as long as you were open and above board about it with the other instructor, and it was okay with them-that often included other forms of jujutsu, though he might let you know just how little he thought of any particular martial art or particular instructor you were interested in. In Tony's case, he's chosen a particular way-whether it's perception on his part, or an actual promise that kenshis all take, well, I don't know. In any case, he believes he's doing what his teacher requires.:"whatever sensei says," though it seems that not all his fellow kenshi agree with him. There are teachers that require that exclusivity, though, and if you want to "cross-train," you shouldn't even bother being their student......

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, because I don't practice koryu. For the same reason, I never visit the Karate, Aikido, or other forums.

That seems apparent, as calling an art founded in the 1400's, like TSKSR "modern" seems to be stretching the term more than a bit. As far as I can tell, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and many other pre-Meiji arts still exist by the score, and all are 'martial' by any definition of the word.

"Bushido" (http://www.koryu.com/library/kfriday2.html), however, as an even remotely comprehensive ethical code, is a modern idea.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
That seems apparent, as calling an art founded in the 1400's, like TSKSR "modern" seems to be stretching the term more than a bit. As far as I can tell, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and many other pre-Meiji arts still exist by the score, and all are 'martial' by any definition of the word.
Anyone whop claims that kind of lineage is deluding themselves, David, like the idea that TKD is thousands of years old. Pre-Meiji arts are dead; their offshoots are alive and well, but in reality, all arts are "modern" in the sense that judo is probably the oldest of them all.

[Soulend]

What??? That's the most bizarre thing I've heard anyone claim on these boards! TKD never had a ryu system. So all practicioners of koryu are basically full of it? Their scrolls and lineage, what..fraudulent?

Pretty odd that scholars such as Dr. Friday and Ellis Amdur believe it to be genuine.

[elder999]

Originally posted by Soulend
What??? That's the most bizarre thing I've heard anyone claim on these boards! TKD never had a ryu system. So all practicioners of koryu are basically full of it? Their scrolls and lineage, what..fraudulent?

This should be good...:rolleyes:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
What??? That's the most bizarre thing I've heard anyone claim on these boards! TKD never had a ryu system.
There are TKD practitioners who claim such. The big political splits in TKD in Europe is due to this.
Originally posted by Soulend
So all practicioners of koryu are basically full of it? Their scrolls and lineage, what..fraudulent?

Pretty odd that scholars such as Dr. Friday and Ellis Amdur believe it to be genuine.
I don't know who these people are, but the Edo period is gone. Claims of 600YO lineages just don't stand up to close scrutiny, today.

[Soulend]

Pick a koryu, Tony, and show me precisely where their claimed lineage is in error.

Why do you think this? Because they are simply too old to be believeable? Have you examined the documents of any koryu?

What of sumo? Presumably it was made up by overweight judoka in the 1950's?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
Pick a koryu, Tony, and show me precisely where their claimed lineage is in error.

Why do you think this? Because they are simply too old to be believeable? Have you examined the documents of any koryu?

What of sumo? Presumably it was made up by overweight judoka in the 1950's?
Sumo isn't so much koryu as a sport; it's wrestling to please the gods. Even so, it has undergone changes across the ages.
Let me ask you: can it really be possible to have an art completely unchanged since the 1400s?

[heatMiser]

I would contend that it is unlikely that a system can remain unchanged through a single generation. Changing over 600 years is no more hostile to the concept of a continuing art than is changing over fifty years.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by heatMiser
I would contend that it is unlikely that a system can remain unchanged through a single generation. Changing over 600 years is no more hostile to the concept of a continuing art than is changing over fifty years.
Which poses an interesting conundrum, Ev; how far must it change before it is no longer recognisable to its originators? Once an art changes that much, it is no longer the same art, even if it carries the same name. Modern medicine is nothing like the "medicine" or physic practiced 600 years ago. It may carry the same name, but the content has changed beyond all recognition.

[Soulend]

No one said it was completely unchanged. Nor did I intend to give the impression that I believe Sumo is a koryu.

So, if an art evolves in the slightest, say the current headmaster adds a new kata, then it should be called something completely different, and voids any previous lineage?

AFAIK, the original scrolls contain the same kata and techniques still practiced today by many ryu.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
So, if an art evolves in the slightest, say the current headmaster adds a new kata, then it should be called something completely different, and voids any previous lineage?
If it changes to the point where, if the founder were to timeslip and couldn't recognise it, then it's no longer the art they founded. It has been modernised.

[Soulend]

I posit that in many cases the founder would recognize the art he founded, because it has been transmitted in a ryu system.

[charlesl]

And if it doesn't change to the point where it's still recognisable, then it's ok with you? What if it was modernised in the 1700's, but not overly different since that time period, would that work?

It's kind of a funny thing.

If I remember rightly there were some koryu systems whose main tenets included adapting to the current times, so that as new technologies or methods were realized, they could bring those in as well. Would that be an exception to your ruling? (of course, I could be remembering wrongly, I have a knack for that).

-Charles

[Jock Armstrong]

Tony made boo boo. Seriously - TKSR has documentation going back to Choiisai sensei in the 1400's. Recognised as such by the Japanese government, it recieved the accolade "Intangible cultural asset". Koryu arts have documentation Tony, verified and recognised by historians and government . I agree that karate, shirinji kempo and the like are modern arts. koryu are not. It's that simple.

[matasaburo]

Pre-Meiji arts are dead; their offshoots are alive and well, but in reality, all arts are "modern" in the sense that judo is probably the oldest of them all."

Hear hear, As I see it, no existing koryu reflects even a fraction of the arts technical heritage as practiced in eras past. The koryu today are just pretty dancing. This will upset those who believe they are practicing an unchanged samurai art with a 400 year lineage - but its the truth I believe.

Lineage is just evidence of the arts pedigree, and too many get caught up in the paper chasing and the politics. If it wasn't for judo, many of the jujutsu ryuha would have gone the way of the dodo; and kendo was the reviver of the kenjutsu ryuha - all of which were in decline by the mid-Meiji period. This is fact.

What's so wrong with this fact? Why are so many koryu people upset by this? I dunno? I am proud to practice a koryu that can adapt and change to meet new methods of combat and address modern realities. The strategies and concepts remain the same as when the art was founded but the art is ever-changing to meet the needs of the student who needs it to work. Isn't this the original concept of the arts invention in the first place? Not to become frozen in time, a mere antiquated museum peace for those who parade around believing they practice the self-same arts of the samurai.

I think in many instances, there are notes in the mokuroku as to what changes were made, and by which headmaster. I'm sure there are stylistic differences (that is individual style based on the persons stature etc.) between each headmaster but the core curriculum should not change much... I think. :D But what do I know...

Steven

[Soulend]

I believe you're right, Charles. Some encouraged innovation, some stagnated and died.

Just think, what we are talking about here are systems whose weaponry could for the most part no longer be carried around after the Meiji Restoration, and was for all intents and purposes obsolete. How would a ryu that teaches an obsolete battlefield weapon 'modernize' when the weapon is no longer used and there are no longer much in the way of battlefields in Meiji Japan anyway? At least to the point that they would no longer be recognizable to the founder of the art...

There are ryu whose fuzoku bugei include techniques for besieging castles and delousing armor. There is at least one hojutsu ryu that teaches loading, aiming, and firing of the arquebus. Lot of innovation and modernizing going on there..:rolleyes:

[Kimpatsu]

Just another lightening raid by the Orthography Commandos:
When you talk of a style, you say XXX-ryu, but the word for a style on its own is "ryuha".

[Soulend]

I was taught that a ryuha is a branch from the main tradition. Thus we have things like the Toda-ha Buko Ryu and the Ono-ha Itto Ryu. Wayne Muromoto seems to agree with this definition, (http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/whatisryu.html) so I believe I'll keep it. :)

And what are you 'lightening', Tony? Is the orthography heavy?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
I was taught that a ryuha is a branch from the main tradition. Thus we have things like the Toda-ha Buko Ryu and the Ono-ha Itto Ryu. Wayne Muromoto seems to agree with this definition, (http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/whatisryu.html) so I believe I'll keep it. :)
I'm going by what I was taught. Hold on... Just looked it up in the Kojien, which says that "ryuha" or "ryugi" are the correct terms. Maybe Wayne would like to argue with them?
Originally posted by Soulend
And what are you 'lightening', Tony? Is the orthography heavy?
Well, I do carry the burdens of the world...

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I'm going by what I was taught. Hold on... Just looked it up in the Kojien, which says that "ryuha" or "ryugi" are the correct terms. Maybe Wayne would like to argue with them?


Maybe he would... Doesn't the character for 'ha' used in 'ryuha' mean 'faction'? Or is another character used? So a faction of a ryuha would be a ryuhaha? :D

Since many other knowledgeable (far more so than I) and Japanese-fluent martial artists use 'ryuha' the way I do, I wonder if the fact that the Kojien is not compiled by followers of the various arts which use a ryu system could have anything to do with it?

For example, the entry for 'boot camp' in Webster's says the following:

'The primary training station for enlisted naval personnel; so called because of the leggings or boots worn by the recruits.'

The second half of this definition is kaka; it is called 'boot camp' due to the stiff leather collars on the old uniforms, Marines were once called 'Bootnecks'(forerunner to "leathernecks"), or "boots" for short. Had nothing to do with footwear. So Webster's offers a layman's definition.

Does the Kojien differentiate between a naginata and a nagamaki?

[Daniel Lee]

Tony,

I think your assertion that all martial arts (as with any human endeavour) change is a good one, but your original claim that no art exists today with a 600 year old lineage is clearly a different issue to this. Change exists in varying degrees from art to art, but there are still several old ones left out there with historically verifiable 400 - 600 year old pedigrees. :)

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Daniel Lee
I think your assertion that all martial arts (as with any human endeavour) change is a good one, but your original claim that no art exists today with a 600 year old lineage is clearly a different issue to this. Change exists in varying degrees from art to art, but there are still several old ones left out there with historically verifiable 400 - 600 year old pedigrees. :)
But how much have they changed, so as to be unidentifiable from their original form?
Originally posted by Soulend
Does the Kojien differentiate between a naginata and a nagamaki?
Hang on...
Yes, it describes them as both bent-up blades, and mentions that they were used by infantry against cavalry, but after that, the definition of Naginata goers on to explain how its main puglitic role was during the Heian period, and then fell from grace to resurface after the Warring States period in the Tokugawa era, with the handles decorated by black lacquer and gold leaf, as decorative weapons and a form of women's budo.

[renfield_kuroda]

Mugairyu Iaihyodo has a very clear lineage dating back to its foundation in 1693. Would the founder Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi recognize the art we practice today? Yes, in as much as I see the origins of the art when I look at photos and drawings of techniques from 100 years ago.
I think what's more relevant is that every Soke would recognize the art practiced by the Soke before and after him. Stretch that out across 16 generations, and yes things change. Sometimes the techniques change dramatically. But Niina-gosoke told us something very interesting once. He said:
All these moves we do, all these kata, they don't mean anything. 20 kata, they're all just variations of one. They're just a way to help you understand the single, true theory of Mugairyu.

Mugairyu Iaihyodo, as a koryu, is far more than a collection of physical techniques. The techniques are actually quite malleable and, in that sense, irrelevant to the 'truth' of Mugairyu that we hone by practicing. There's been a tradition that the Soke adds a kata, so 100 years ago they didn't have several of the kata we do now. The kata themselves change depending on what you're practicing; ma-ai, speed, balance, timing. Many kata have several variations, a cut across the face, or across the raised arms of your opponent, or actually you miss on the first cut...

Let's not get caught up in the physical techniques and the fact that few people wear two swords to practice, or the fact that people are generally taller now, dictating the use of longer swords, or the fact that we wear modern cotton and silk uniforms...a koryu is a koryu not just because of how it's practiced, but WHY it's studied.

So, if Tsuji Gettan Sukemochi came to practice tomorrow, he would see us pursuing the "one truth" ("ippo jitsu mugai") that he didicated his life to perfecting.

Regards,

r e n

[Mekugi]

Pre-Meiji arts are dead; their offshoots are alive and well, but in reality, all arts are "modern" in the sense that judo is probably the oldest of them all.

Who wrote this??

Anyway...have you seen the 1906 photo with all the different representatives of Koryu with Jigoro Kano?

Those Koryu lent themselves to Judo. Kano himself based Judo off an existing Koryu. Those same koryu still survive today relatively unchanged. SO in that sense- they were never really dead.

-R

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mekugi
Those same koryu still survive today relatively unchanged. SO in that sense- they were never really dead.
I think the qualification is "relatively". As I asked once before, how far must an art change before it is no longer recognisable to its founder?

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
As I asked once before, how far must an art change before it is no longer recognisable to its founder?

Why don't you answer this question for us, Tony? Is it the addition/removal of one kata? Two? The adaptation of one waza to deal with changing clothing styles or social situations? Two modified waza? Three?

If an art evolves during the founders lifetime, does this invalidate its lineage?

How much has Shorinji Kempo changed since its founding? Is it evolving? When will it become unrecognisable to the founder?

Cheers,

Mike

[Mekugi]

How about the same techniques in a densho dating back 200 years that we practice today?

There is another one I study that has older techiques....exactly the same as they were.

Albeit they are encrypted and sometimes the order they were taught was changed to make them easier to learn, they are the exact same thing.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
I think the qualification is "relatively". As I asked once before, how far must an art change before it is no longer recognisable to its founder?

[Soulend]

Quite a bit, I reckon. In the case of one school of naginatajutsu, the kata around today are lifeless and seemingly ineffectual; the footwork appears more like atarashii naginata than anything that would have been used on the field. Given the legendary status and battlefield exploits of the founder, it is hard to believe that these techniques are the same that he taught and used.

Others, like TSKSR, have lost some kata and even whole weapons systems - it apparently once included kyujutsu, for example. What remains, though, is very extensive. To claim that it is entirely different art today, and would be unrecognizable to Chosai is quite a pronouncement indeed, especially for one not of this tradition.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
Why don't you answer this question for us, Tony? Is it the addition/removal of one kata? Two? The adaptation of one waza to deal with changing clothing styles or social situations? Two modified waza? Three?
How would you describe a modified waza? Our hokei is set, but the great masters will place a different emphasis on execution from time to time.
Originally posted by Mike Williams
If an art evolves during the founders lifetime, does this invalidate its lineage?
How does it evolve without ceasing to be hokei?
Originally posted by Mike Williams
How much has Shorinji Kempo changed since its founding? Is it evolving? When will it become unrecognisable to the founder?
None, no, and thus never. We follow hokei, as prescribed by the kyohan.
HTH.

[larsen_huw]

First of all, could you tell me what 'hokei' means. It's a term i've never come across before.

Secondly, you say that "the great masters will palce a different emphesis on execution from time to time". Would it not be possible, over several generations, for the great masters to slowly alter the emphesis, causing the execution to drift so much that the technique now becomes unrecognisable to the founder?

I'm not saying that this would be done deliberately ... merely that one generation of great masters' interpritation might be slightly different to the great masters of the previous generation, and if this were to happen over several generations the technique would become unrecognisable to the founder.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by larsen_huw
First of all, could you tell me what 'hokei' means. It's a term i've never come across before.
"True form"
Originally posted by larsen_huw
Secondly, you say that "the great masters will palce a different emphesis on execution from time to time". Would it not be possible, over several generations, for the great masters to slowly alter the emphesis, causing the execution to drift so much that the technique now becomes unrecognisable to the founder?
No, becasue they have the baseline described in the kyohan and the syllabus.
Originally posted by larsen_huw
I'm not saying that this would be done deliberately ... merely that one generation of great masters' interpritation might be slightly different to the great masters of the previous generation, and if this were to happen over several generations the technique would become unrecognisable to the founder.
But that would be deviation from hokei, so no.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
How would you describe a modified waza? Our hokei is set, but the great masters will place a different emphasis on execution from time to time.

How does it evolve without ceasing to be hokei?

None, no, and thus never. We follow hokei, as prescribed by the kyohan.
HTH.

Tony,
hokei are hokei, I agree, and Kyohan gives the rules. However, the understanding of them has developed, particularly throught the theories of Mori Sensei and others, and the contemporaneous "computer graphics" analysis. Hombu now teaches in a much more technical way than it did say ten years ago, to our benefit I'd argue. The point is that developments are made by the masters. I guess I'm trying to reason that the understanding of hokei has deepened, but the hokei are unchanged, which is after all what they are there for.

Let's not forget there is henka within hokei, some acceptable, some BS.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony,
hokei are hokei, I agree, and Kyohan gives the rules. However, the understanding of them has developed, particularly throught the theories of Mori Sensei and others, and the contemporaneous "computer graphics" analysis. Hombu now teaches in a much more technical way than it did say ten years ago, to our benefit I'd argue. The point is that developments are made by the masters. I guess I'm trying to reason that the understanding of hokei has deepened, but the hokei are unchanged, which is after all what they are there for.
Let's not forget there is henka within hokei, some acceptable, some BS.
Yes, David, but it's still hokei. we don't have people adding their own kata, for example, or dropping other kata or techniques from the syllabus, which is what Huw and the others were talking about.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Yes, David, but it's still hokei. we don't have people adding their own kata, for example, or dropping other kata or techniques from the syllabus, which is what Huw and the others were talking about.

I thought I was agreeing with you Tony :confused:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
I thought I was agreeing with you Tony :confused:
And I'm agreeing with you.
Now go support me over the dogi issue. ;)

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Yes, David, but it's still hokei. we don't have people adding their own kata, for example, or dropping other kata or techniques from the syllabus, which is what Huw and the others were talking about.

Actually Tony, i wasn't talking about the adding of dropping of techniques or kata, but of the slight change of one technique over a long time period until it becomes unrecognisable as the same technique to the founder.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by larsen_huw
Actually Tony, i wasn't talking about the adding of dropping of techniques or kata, but of the slight change of one technique over a long time period until it becomes unrecognisable as the same technique to the founder.
OK. With hokei, that can't happen. Even with branch masters at ha level (or even ri), the techniques are recognisably those ofthe founder. So even 1,000 years from now, were it possible to timeslip, the art should be recognisable.
So, who was it on here was talking about adding kata and dropping them?

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
OK. With hokei, that can't happen. Even with branch masters at ha level (or even ri), the techniques are recognisably those ofthe founder. So even 1,000 years from now, were it possible to timeslip, the art should be recognisable.
So, who was it on here was talking about adding kata and dropping them?

Thanks for the information Tony, from your answer i assume a branch master is the lowest person able to have an influence on how students perform their techniques (apart from the students themselves! :p ).

I notice you say 'should' rather that 'would' .... is that doubt on your part? allowing for unforeseeable cicumstances? or just me reading too much into your choice of words? :)

As for who was tlaking about the addition and dropping of kata ... i dunno ... but it wasn't me!

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by larsen_huw
Thanks for the information Tony, from your answer i assume a branch master is the lowest person able to have an influence on how students perform their techniques (apart from the students themselves! :p ).
Absolutely! Students must follow shu, ha, ri, so they don't get to make up stuff. Thing is, to master even a simple technique like kote nuki or uchi uke zuki requires understand of so many things, they will take a lifetime to enumerate. Consequently, a sensei might focus on just one or two of those elements--the most you can hope to pick up at a single time--for many months, only changing the focus and emphasis of approach after you've been doing it one way (and believing you were now quite good at the technique), just to add to the sum of your understanding of the technique. Often as not, this floors you, and your technical qualit dips, so although the learning curve is ever upwards, there are peaks and troughs. (Or, in my case, all downers.)
Originally posted by larsen_huw
I notice you say 'should' rather that 'would' .... is that doubt on your part? allowing for unforeseeable cicumstances? or just me reading too much into your choice of words? :)
Yes, don't take that too seriously. Just, if there's a nuclear war in the next 1,000 years and everyone mutates into having three legs, for example, kuzushi is gonna be a bummer... ;)
Originally posted by larsen_huw
As for who was tlaking about the addition and dropping of kata ... i dunno ... but it wasn't me! Fair enough; someone mentioned it. But once you drop kata or add new ones to the syllabus, I doubt our hypothetical founder would recognise the art any more. By contrast, have you ever seen a movie from the early 1970s called "Sister Streetfighter", starring Sonny Chiba? There's Shorinji Kempo in that, and it's instantly recognisable to all those of us who are kenshi.
Best,

[Mike Williams]

Tony, would you mind addressing the point I made earlier:

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I crosstrain - I believe it is good for the spirit. It squashes egos, forges discipline, and encourages critical thinking. It instills self confidence and requires personal sacrifice.
Crucially, by providing more than one perspective on the anatomy of conflict, it provides the cross-trainer with additional tools for resolving or preventing conflict.

Ergo: cross-training = budo.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

If crosstraining (or training in a combative sport, or koryu bujutsu, or anything that isn't Shorinji Kempo) does [I]not possess the above characteristics (in your view), then why not?

What prevents study as outlined above from being budo?
Is it just the colour of the uniforms? Do you in fact believe that only Shorinji Kempo is budo?

Cheers,

Mike

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
What prevents study as outlined above from being budo?
Is it just the colour of the uniforms? Do you in fact believe that only Shorinji Kempo is budo?
No, there are styles of Karate, for example, that forbid cross-training. For something to be budo, it must have a specific ethical dimension that is taught explicitly. That is the difference betwen budo and bujutsu. In bujutsu, the ethics might be there, but they are not articulated. In budo, they are specifically written down and learned as separate gakka from the techniques.
Then there's kakutogi, which is sport combat; K1 and kickboxing, or Muay Thai, fall into this category, for example.
And finally, there's bugei, which is the kind of marketplace demonstration of feats of skill in which they pass the hat around afterwards.
The reason I dislike the catch-all "martial art" is becasue all four terms are translated as MA, where there are clear differences between them.
HTH.

[Mike Williams]

Fair enough.

Assuming the ethical dimension is taught explicitly within an art (The prime directive being, I assume, to end/prevent conflict") - then why is it also necessary to only serve one master (and to only wear crisp white dogi) for the art to be classified as budo?

If two "do" arts with similar ethical ideals (say judo and karatedo) are studied simultaneously - do they negate each other? How is there a breach of ethics in this case?

Cheers,

Mike

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
Assuming the ethical dimension is taught explicitly within an art (The prime directive being, I assume, to end/prevent conflict") - then why is it also necessary to only serve one master (and to only wear crisp white dogi) for the art to be classified as budo?
If two "do" arts with similar ethical ideals (say judo and karatedo) are studied simultaneously - do they negate each other? How is there a breach of ethics in this case?
Because budo is an apprentice system, and you can only apprentice yourself to one master. If you apprentice yourself to two, what happens if they give you conflicting instructions? Anyway, you can only serve one master, surely?

[monkeyboy_ssj]

I think what it boils down to is Tony does not like change, he is a traditionalist, which is fair enough, but he does expect everyone else to take on his traditionalist views.

As other change and develop, tradistionalist will be left behind.

It's like when we learn defending from seiza, sure it's good, but in the west we sit on chairs, surely it would better to adapt it to fit the times and the surrondings?

If the Japanese never changed and stuck by their views they would never have trained gijin, and we would never be doing martial arts.

Tony wants to be Japanese, but although it is impossible it won't stop him from trying and maybe he will subconsiously think he does fits in.

It seems tony looks for flaws around him instead of looking at himself first, or maybe he is afraid of what he might see.

Ok, Oops, this sounds really harsh, i don't mean any offence, and if it does I do agologise deeply, it's just a way of putting across some thoughts...

Cheers

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
As other change and develop, tradistionalist will be left behind.
No, traditionalists will stay pure when all else around them has been corrupted. What makes you think you're good enough to change the founder's vision?

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Because budo is an apprentice system, and you can only apprentice yourself to one master. If you apprentice yourself to two, what happens if they give you conflicting instructions? Anyway, you can only serve one master, surely?

Conflicting instrutions? go kill your mum, don't kill your mum?!

You find out which is best for YOU, cross training gives you options, what if everything you try does not work from one system? You're screwed, learn to merge skills and you are less preditable.

Budo is within, not through rankings and working to an apprenticship.

Serve one master? no...the way your saying it is that you don't think as an independent person, so if this master said to do something that you felt was wrong you would do it...

The way you're speaking it's like your saying it's good to be brainwashed* (*strong term...)and serve your master...?

Your master teaches you an art, so does another...you are learning 2 different things.

Just because you can program a VCR and drive a car it does not mean that you are going to do both at the same time or that you are better at one than the other.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, traditionalists will stay pure when all else around them has been corrupted. What makes you think you're good enough to change the founder's vision?

No, traditionalists don't realise things evolove. If you don't evolve you will be left behind. I've never said anything about changing an art, you think that what you do is a perfect copy of what your founder did? People change things, you can't help it.

The founders are people the same as you and me, not Gods, sure they are amazingly talented and would be proud to have 1% of there skill, but they are only people. everyone has a different vision, why do you think there are more than 1 martial art?

Origins from Shoalin Lohan- Shoriji Kempo, i think you will find alot has changed...

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Conflicting instrutions? go kill your mum, don't kill your mum?!

You find out which is best for YOU, cross training gives you options, what if everything you try does not work from one system? You're screwed, learn to merge skills and you are less preditable.
Not true. You're screwed for conflicting instructions. Bottom line: find a system that suits you from the outside. Do a little research. I did.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Budo is within, not through rankings and working to an apprenticship.
Budo is also an apprenticeship.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Serve one master? no...the way your saying it is that you don't think as an independent person, so if this master said to do something that you felt was wrong you would do it...
As a child, if your parents told you something was wrong, did you do it? Your sensei is your parent, remember. How many more times do I have to explain that? You are not old enough to decide for yourself.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
The way you're speaking it's like your saying it's good to be brainwashed* (*strong term...)and serve your master...?
So your parents brainwashed you as a child, did they?
If you don't serve your master, how can you expect him to teach you?
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Your master teaches you an art, so does another...you are learning 2 different things.
Impossible, because you can't have two masters. Can you also support two football teams?
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Just because you can program a VCR and drive a car it does not mean that you are going to do both at the same time or that you are better at one than the other.
This is a bogus analogy. To say you are trying to watch two differnt TV programmes on two separate channels at the same time would be better, but au fond, your analogy implies that the TV is your master...

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Not true. You're screwed for conflicting instructions. Bottom line: find a system that suits you from the outside. Do a little research. I did.

Who says you conflict? When you have got 2 different options you see which one works best, Or are you one of those people who sits there still trying to choose while everyone else is eatting at a resturant?

Originally posted by Kimpatsu


Budo is also an apprenticeship.

Fair enough...

Originally posted by Kimpatsu


As a child, if your parents told you something was wrong, did you do it? Your sensei is your parent, remember. How many more times do I have to explain that? You are not old enough to decide for yourself.



When you are a child you are still learning skills as a human being, that is the difference between child and adult. Just because you are young does not mean that you are stupid. Parents don't get it right, they are learning as well. So is you're Sensei.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
.

So your parents brainwashed you as a child, did they?
If you don't serve your master, how can you expect him to teach you?

Impossible, because you can't have two masters. Can you also support two football teams?



You don't serve them, that's the point, you learn from them. Anyway, what sort of conflicting emotions could they put on you??? So if you do martial arts you can't play football? those are 2 different things arn't they?

oh and of course toy can support 2 sides! Chelsea and England for instants...

Originally posted by Kimpatsu


This is a bogus analogy. To say you are trying to watch two differnt TV programmes on two separate channels at the same time would be better, but au fond, your analogy implies that the TV is your master...

No because I don't do 2 martial arts at the same time, I think you will find you can watch 2 differnet programs, one after the other.

[Justinm]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
you think that what you do is a perfect copy of what your founder did?

I doubt even what the founder did is a perfect copy of what the founder did the year before. If the founder had died 5 years earlier or later, the art we now study might have been a different thing all together. Maybe better, maybe worse.

So do we try to do what they did, or do we try to go where they wanted to be? Certainly an area of significant debate in my part of the world - aikido.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Justinm
I doubt even what the founder did is a perfect copy of what the founder did the year before. If the founder had died 5 years earlier or later, the art we now study might have been a different thing all together. Maybe better, maybe worse.

So do we try to do what they did, or do we try to go where they wanted to be? Certainly an area of significant debate in my part of the world - aikido.

Exactly my point!

Good post :cool:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
No, traditionalists don't realise things evolove.
What you're advocating isn't evolution; it's corruption.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
What you're advocating isn't evolution; it's corruption.

No it's not, Evoling in one's self is to develop, just because you change does not mean you are corrupting yourself.

you are not changing the martial arts so how can you corrupte it???

I think you're getting your wires crossed.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Who says you conflict? When you have got 2 different options you see which one works best, Or are you one of those people who sits there still trying to choose while everyone else is eatting at a resturant?
Budo is not a buffet where you go in and pick and mix what you want to eat; you're the apprentice in the kitchens to the cordon bleu chef. He tells you what to do, and that includes cleaning the grills and swabbing the floor. It's how you start.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
When you are a child you are still learning skills as a human being, that is the difference between child and adult. Just because you are young does not mean that you are stupid. Parents don't get it right, they are learning as well. So is you're Sensei.
When you are young, you may not be stupid, but you are ignorant. Some parents are better than others, but all that means is that you should choose them wisely. You can't choose your biological parents, but you can choose your sensei. So choose well.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
You don't serve them, that's the point, you learn from them. Anyway, what sort of conflicting emotions could they put on you??? So if you do martial arts you can't play football? those are 2 different things arn't they?
Of course you serve them you're apprenticeed to them. AND you learn from them. That's the contract; your service for their teaching. That is the meaning of budo.
I didn't say you couldn't play football; I said you can't support two teams at once. Pay attention.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
oh and of course toy can support 2 sides! Chelsea and England for instants...
Differnt leagues; differnt game. You can't support England and Germany at the same time, now can you? Or Chelsea and Arsenal? You're mixing apples and oranges... again.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
No because I don't do 2 martial arts at the same time, I think you will find you can watch 2 differnet programs, one after the other.
Yo uare not trying to watch two programmes one after the other; you are tring (and failing) to watch them simulataneously. To watch them consecutively (to follow your metaphor), you would have to first finish watching one before you start watching another. So, you see, you would have to end your training under one master before you enter into the service of another. Get it?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
No it's not, Evoling in one's self is to develop, just because you change does not mean you are corrupting yourself.

you are not changing the martial arts so how can you corrupte it???

You are corrupting the ideals, one of which is you are not following hokei. And what of shu, ha, ri? There are reasons for these concepts.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Differnt leagues; differnt game. You can't support England and Germany at the same time, now can you? Or Chelsea and Arsenal? You're mixing apples and oranges... again.

Yo uare not trying to watch two programmes one after the other; you are tring (and failing) to watch them simulataneously. To watch them consecutively (to follow your metaphor), you would have to first finish watching one before you start watching another. So, you see, you would have to end your training under one master before you enter into the service of another. Get it?

Ok, you can support England and Germany...

I can, so can many people (if I like Germany that is)

you can't because that's the sort of subborn person you are, you've got to realise that everyone is different from you, don't push your views and treat them as fact.

No you are not trying to watch them at the same time, you are thinking it impossible due to using they eyes to watch TV, this is martial arts.

How do you know I am failing just because i do 2 martial arts. Many people have said it helps me develop in the other one.

You still haven't proved that doing 2 martial arts will make me fail, you've only said "it's wrong becasue i say so..."

Look at Kevin Chan my Kamon Wing Chun master, took up Jujitsu and his WC knowledge helped him become Light weight champion, also his Ju jitsu helps him with his Wing Chun grappling.

You think Samurai only did sword work? And surely they are the heart of Budo to you? Right?

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
You are corrupting the ideals, one of which is you are not following hokei. And what of shu, ha, ri? There are reasons for these concepts.

I already taked about this and gave my aswer. (about half way down)

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21409&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

to quote from these:

"Ha and Ri is not about magically waking up from a trance. It's about constantly developing yourself, Ha and Ri are Japanese ways of thinking that acompanies the japanese way of life, i am not japanese nor do i think like one."

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Ok, you can support England and Germany...

I can, so can many people (if I like Germany that is)
So, what you mean is, you just hitch your wagon to whoever's in front? Less emotionally costly, perhaps, but ultimately you have nothing to which you can claim you are loyal.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
you can't because that's the sort of subborn person you are, you've got to realise that everyone is different from you, don't push your views and treat them as fact.
No, not everyone is differnt from me. Budoka aren't.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
No you are not trying to watch them at the same time, you are thinking it impossible due to using they eyes to watch TV, this is martial arts.
Of course you are trying to watch them at the same time. Which is why you end up absorbing neither.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
How do you know I am failing just because i do 2 martial arts. Many people have said it helps me develop in the other one.
Hokei?
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
You still haven't proved that doing 2 martial arts will make me fail, you've only said "it's wrong becasue i say so..."
It's wrong because it's a betrayal of your master. But of course, you don't feel loyalty to anything, so you obviously can't feel betrayal, either.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Look at Kevin Chan my Kamon Wing Chun master, took up Jujitsu and his WC knowledge helped him become Light weight champion, also his Ju jitsu helps him with his Wing Chun grappling.
Wing Chun? That's not budo! It's Chinese, for a start! And jujutsu is bujutsu, not budo!
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
You think Samurai only did sword work? And surely they are the heart of Budo to you? Right?
First you tell me you are a Chinese stylist, then you compare yourself to a samurai?! You are really muddled.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
"Ha and Ri is not about magically waking up from a trance. It's about constantly developing yourself, Ha and Ri are Japanese ways of thinking that acompanies the japanese way of life, i am not japanese nor do i think like one."
Which is why you are not practicing budo.
But I now know that from your last post. You're mixing Chinese styles and bujutsu. Well, good luck to you. Just don't call it budo.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Which is why you are not practicing budo.
But I now know that from your last post. You're mixing Chinese styles and bujutsu. Well, good luck to you. Just don't call it budo.

Either are you then because you are NOT Japanese. Budo is a concept, not a race, creed or colour.

I apply concepts to my arts to therefore it is budo.

Define Budo if you can.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Either are you then because you are NOT Japanese. Budo is a concept, not a race, creed or colour.

I apply concepts to my arts to therefore it is budo.

Define Budo if you can.
What you practice is not budo. Definition of budo:
The word "budo" comprises two characters, "do", or "the way", and "bu", which itself comprises three elements, the number two, representing two people, the verb "to stop" (transitive), and a spear, repersenting violence. It is therefore literally, "the way two people stop fighting."
This is achieved through the application of budo discipline: apprenticeship to a single master, and obedience to that master's instructions.
As the concepts you apply are not these, they are not budo. I know these are not the concepts that you apply, because you haven't mentioned them.
Oh, and "budo" can only apply to Japanese MA, not Chinese or Korean.
Yours (graduate in Japanese studies, University of London School of Oriental and African Studies),

[CEB]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
....You're mixing Chinese styles and bujutsu. Well, good luck to you. Just don't call it budo.

I thought that was what So Doshin did ?

[Mike Williams]

OK, let's re-cap:

To qualify as "budo", a martial art must feature:

1) Explicit ethical teaching as a core element of training
2) An apprentice system - requiring exclusivity on the part of the student, and lifelong loyalty
3) Techniques that never change, and are performed exactly as the art's founder performed them
4) A crisp white dogi (to signify purity)
5) The absence of competition (sport)
6) Modernity
7) [EDIT] Japanese origins

Have I left anything out?

Assuming the above to be true - name one art that meets all the criteria.

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Ed, Bingo! ;)

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
What you practice is not budo. Definition of budo:
The word "budo" comprises two characters, "do", or "the way", and "bu", which itself comprises three elements, the number two, representing two people, the verb "to stop" (transitive), and a spear, repersenting violence. It is therefore literally, "the way two people stop fighting."
This is achieved through the application of budo discipline: apprenticeship to a single master, and obedience to that master's instructions.
As the concepts you apply are not these, they are not budo. I know these are not the concepts that you apply, because you haven't mentioned them.
Oh, and "budo" can only apply to Japanese MA, not Chinese or Korean.
Yours (graduate in Japanese studies, University of London School of Oriental and African Studies),

No, that's your definition of Budo, budo is about Martial spirit, being honest to one's self, trying your hardest, and respect to everyone round you. Everything that you have said above (apart from the one master bit) is what i think is right, it does not say anything about 1 master in many people definition of budo.

I think you can apply all of those to other forms of martial art. In that case, Shorinji Kempo is not Budo due to it having a direct Chinese origin.

And surely boasting is not Budo like, anyway, my Ex graduated from SOAS too, but that does not make her an expert in the martial arts.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by CEB
I thought that was what So Doshin did ?
He was a genius. Monkeyboy is not. A point I keep making, regarding shu, ha, ri, as well, but the point seems lost on you all.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
OK, let's re-cap:

To qualify as "budo", a martial art must feature:

1) Explicit ethical teaching as a core element of training
2) An apprentice system - requiring exclusivity on the part of the student, and lifelong loyalty
3) Techniques that never change, and are performed exactly as the art's founder performed them
4) A crisp white dogi (to signify purity)
5) The absence of competition (sport)
6) Modernity
7) [EDIT] Japanese origins

Have I left anything out?

Assuming the above to be true - name one art that meets all the criteria.

Cheers,

Mike

PS: Ed, Bingo! ;)

yeah! I'm with these guys!

I think you will find many of your ideals are faulted to be a perfect martial art.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
OK, let's re-cap:

To qualify as "budo", a martial art must feature:

1) Explicit ethical teaching as a core element of training
2) An apprentice system - requiring exclusivity on the part of the student, and lifelong loyalty
3) Techniques that never change, and are performed exactly as the art's founder performed them
4) A crisp white dogi (to signify purity)
5) The absence of competition (sport)
6) Modernity
7) [EDIT] Japanese origins

Have I left anything out?

Assuming the above to be true - name one art that meets all the criteria.

Just one?
Shorinji Kempo.
But then, I could also mention In'yo Karate or real Shotokai or whichever branch of Aikido it is (I don't know all the names) that obeys all these strictures, or...

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
He was a genius. Monkeyboy is not. A point I keep making, regarding shu, ha, ri, as well, but the point seems lost on you all.

Never said i was :) just putting my point of view across, not trying to push it upon people like some.

Call us Matt too...my user name is silly, but don't use it as an insult :)

I don't think you understand Shu Ha Ri either...(bait) :D

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
No, that's your definition of Budo,
No, that is THE definition of budo. Look it up in the Kojien. Or even an ordinary Kokugo Jiten, if you prefer.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
budo is about Martial spirit, being honest to one's self, trying your hardest, and respect to everyone round you.
No, you're thinking of the eightfold path.

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Everything that you have said above (apart from the one master bit) is what i think is right, it does not say anything about 1 master in many people definition of budo.
It doesn't matter what you think; you can't go changing the meaning of words to suit yourself. Or are you Humpty Dumpty?
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
I think you can apply all of those to other forms of martial art. In that case, Shorinji Kempo is not Budo due to it having a direct Chinese origin.
Wrong again, because Shorinji Kempo is a JAPANESE martial art. I think you can indeed see the difference, and are just being perverse.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
And surely boasting is not Budo like, anyway, my Ex graduated from SOAS too, but that does not make her an expert in the martial arts.
No, but if she studied Japanese, it makes her an expert in Japanese, which is what this is all about: Japanese etymology.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Just one?
Shorinji Kempo.
But then, I could also mention In'yo Karate or real Shotokai or whichever branch of Aikido it is (I don't know all the names) that obeys all these strictures, or...

WRONG!

surely Shorinji Kempo comes from Shaolin, and Doshin changed an awful lot.

Karate changed also, why do you think there are so many styles of it? Many things were added and taken away as goes with the development of Aikido.

Try again.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu

Wrong again, because Shorinji Kempo is a JAPANESE martial art. I think you can indeed see the difference, and are just being perverse.

No, but if she studied Japanese, it makes her an expert in Japanese, which is what this is all about: Japanese etymology.

I think it's funny how you find yourself and expert after studying at SOAS for 4 years! She is still studing in Japan at the moment learning more and more by the day. It just shows the way you perseve yourself.

I can't be bothered to continue this discussion, because you are too stuborn to understand other peoples points of views,

I respect yours emencly, you do not respect mine. I don't see why I should carry on with someone who can't see past they're own nose.

Good day.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
surely Shorinji Kempo comes from Shaolin, and Doshin changed an awful lot.
As I said, he was a genius. Us letter mortals are obligated to apprentice ourselves to one master. BTW, that's what Kaiso did too: he never cross-trained, but stuck with one style until he'd mastered it, and then moved on.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
Karate changed also, why do you think there are so many styles of it? Many things were added and taken away as goes with the development of Aikido.
Karate is a generic term, unlike Shorinji Kempo. I cited styles of karate which adhere to the definition of budo. And there is one style of Aikido (which may also now be regarded as generic, given the number of splinter groups) that remains loyal to the founder's ideal, I believe.
Do you understand now?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
I think it's funny how you find yourself and expert after studying at SOAS for 4 years! She is still studing in Japan at the moment learning more and more by the day. It just shows the way you perseve yourself.
I WHAT myself?
Actually, formal study is four years, but you never stop learning. If your girlfriend has takne longer than that, she must have repeated a year.
Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
I can't be bothered to continue this discussion, because you are too stuborn to understand other peoples points of views,
I cqan understand it; you're just wrong. As Richard Dawkins said, "I'm not a hostile person to meet. But I think it's important to realize that when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
WRONG!

surely Shorinji Kempo comes from Shaolin, and Doshin changed an awful lot.

Karate changed also, why do you think there are so many styles of it? Many things were added and taken away as goes with the development of Aikido.

Try again.

Let's not forget Shorinji Kempo tournaments: http://shorinji.hp.infoseek.co.jp/taikai-ef.htm


And all the "splinter groups" of Aikido are not budo? Interesting...

Cheers,

Mike

[monkeyboy_ssj]

How you find yourself an expert...that's what i said.

EX-girlfriend ;) she did a diploma course first, 1 year intensive.

Yes he was amazing, but you are contraditing yourself, you same you should no change the original, so what did he do? So basically it's wrong but Doshin is an exception.

"You come right out a comic book Mr. Han man" as Jim Kelly would say.

there's nothing to understand...because it's just your point of view.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
He was a genius. Monkeyboy is not. A point I keep making, regarding shu, ha, ri, as well, but the point seems lost on you all.

I don't know Monkeyboy. I was just curious about this and I knew you would know. The legend I read was that So Doshin learned Shoalin Su Kempo while in China and that is the origin of Shorinji Kempo.

Very interesting story I don't know how much is truth and and how was hype. But what is more important anyway an exact account of how a martial art came to be or a great legend that feeds one spirit. Both have their purpose. My sensei practiced Shoriniji as a boy and young man. Numeric symbolism comes in to play in our Goju Ryu forms. I think Sensei brings a Shorinji outlook into understanding their meaning. For example one of our forms is 18 hands. Sensei has said that the 18 Rakan ken is what a master knows. Therefore he has inferred that 18 hands is a masters level form. I believe Shorinji has has had an impact on Sensei's beliefs that is where my interest in this lies. As far as this peeing contest concerning somantics I am not participating. This is the kind of thing that should be left for Kuchi Bushi.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
Let's not forget Shorinji Kempo tournaments: http://shorinji.hp.infoseek.co.jp/taikai-ef.htm
We don't have tournaments; we have taikai. There is a subtle difference.
Originally posted by Mike Williams
And all the "splinter groups" of Aikido are not budo? Interesting...
The faction that I described don't hold them to be.
---
The bottom line here, Mike, is that I speak Japanese, and you don't. So why are you arguing with me over the definition of a word in a language that you don't understand? (See the Richard Dawkins quote above.)

[Dave Pawson]

Ok now I'm really confused, doesn't take a lot I'll agree:D
but according to the link that mike posted there is a line which says

39th Kanto University Competition
Tokyo University Shorinji Kempo Club has got the 3rd position on total score.

Now it says Competition, and Tony states it is not a competition but a Taikai, (social gathering) if I understand it correctly. But if two individuals train / compete together and are marked on how they perform and one is declared a winner surely that is a competition.

Also slight subject change and if need be we can take it else where to discuss, but looking back at an old BBC program with Shorinji Kempo it was stated that , "Practice should be done in pairs, and that practice should be the equivalent of prayer" Now in my limited knowledge a prayer is normally directed at a "God" as in a spiritual service. If that is the case and accepting that the founder of Shorinji was a genius, was he also asking for worhip? Because this flies against everything Tony has ever stated in regard to his Athiest beliefs.

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
So why are you arguing with me?

Haven't you worked that one out yet?

Dave - superb post, thanks!!

Cheers,

Mike

Going back to the lineage and change issue raised a few pages ago...

I don't get it... What exactly would be the difference of the Hokei (in SK) and for instance a transmission scroll (i.e. various mokuroku) in a koryu (ryuha) when married with the oral teachings?

Steven

[Vapour]

Wow, isn't Tony the master of troll or what. Away for a half a day and there are five extra pages of comments which I can't bothered to read all. Tony, I grant you the title, <a href="http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame11.html">L'Enfant Provocateure</a>. :D

As of you practicing budo and not bushido, don't you think your argument is purly semantic?

Firstly, your idea that one as a student (retainer) ought to be loyal to your instructor (master) is based on Bushido, the way of samurai, often described in Japanese as "The way of Hagakure", based on writing called Hagakure from Nabeshima Clan, where I happen to come from (called Saga prefecture now). I should remind you that historical reality didn't always reflect the idalised version of code of conduct.

Here is a link to translation of Hagakure.

http://www.hut.fi/~renko/hag1.html

The idea, which your view obviously have taken inspiration from, was that you ought to be loyal to your house/lord to the death. Incidently, in the context of samurai, being loyal to the lord and furthering the prosperity of the house is the purpose, studying of martial arts is the mean in which to serve that purpose so it was absolutely necessarily for samurai to cross train and become a better solider.

If you want to follow budo, martial way, then I cannot follow your logic because there is no way you could be a better fighter without cross training. Cross training is counterproductive only if you are somewhere in coloured belt rank. And even that, it depends on the type of combination and context. If you want to be a better fighter/samurai/kenshi or whatever, cross training is a must. What is the point of being a fighter who only know one art.

Now, I can understand your logic that budo is modern adaptation of old way. However, you seems to have adapted the bad ones and discarded the good ones. Instead of being loyal to budo, the way of becoming better fighter, in which studying different arts is the mean, you adopted the way in which being loyal to a style of martial arts or even one instructor of this style become the purpose in which way of pursuing the martial way, budo, are to be sacrificed.

i should also mention that kenshin can be generic term, not specifically limited to Shorinji Kempo. One could translate kenshi as the one who use his/her fist for greater purpose.

So we come back to the same point I have been repeating. Your logic only make sence in religious term but not in practical sence at all. You are pusuing the moral logic of idealised version of samurai, which is plain feudal and backward, while at the same time discarding the practical logic of what samurai actually did to become better fighters.

P.S. As of koryu, granted that there are dogey lineage or completely fabricated transmission scroll but existence of number of koryu can be authenticated by corraboration of different historical source such as written record from fuedal province attaining to existence of such style. Plus, I'm not saying that koryu did not change the flavour or practice, but one of the characteristic of koryu is that they practice their arts in the exactly the same way as in the transmission scroll. So any change which was made can be discovered by analysing the transmission writing.

This is in someway similar to Japanese sword. I don't believe that Japanese produced the best sword in the world. There are many different culture and country which produced equally original sword in term of practicality and beauty. However, our past ancestor paid meticurous care in preserving their sword. Collection of ancient sword is very rare in other country. But If you collect Japanese sword, it is not at all rare to come across sword which is half millenium old or more. One of the reason being the collector of Japanese sword is said to be far more interesting than sword collection from other ocuntry.

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by monkeyboy_ssj
I think what it boils down to is Tony does not like change, he is a traditionalist, which is fair enough, but he does expect everyone else to take on his traditionalist views.


Actually I think the problem is not that Tony is a traditionalist and believes strongly that techniques should be passed down untouched from the founder inperpetuity. The problem is that he does not believe any other style besides his is capable of doing so.

Koryu changed over time. They adapted to new situations, new battlefields, and new political realities. Koryu were not a holy relic to be preserved at all costs. They were a tool to make sure the practitioner was preserved at all costs. If the tool did not do the job, then it was adapted until it did, or there would be no one left to pass on the tool to the next generation. When the sword arts stopped being used regularly, most schools put a halt to technical innovation, recognizing that it was no longer possible to test the theories.

[heatMiser]

Any time I'm in a preserved period house here in Dublin, I have to duck low to go through doorways or risk painful head injuries. This is good, hard evidence that between 100 and 150 years ago, people were a lot shorter than they are now. This evidence is backed up by large amounts of contemporary writing.

Even though I am significantly different in many ways from the people of C19th Ireland, I fairly sure that they, and I are both bona-fide Homo-Sapiens. I believe this because the essence of being human has nothing to do with how tall one is, or any other physical characteristic. We look different, act different and seem different, but we ARE the same.

The same goes for martial arts.

[kage110]

Youji Hajime my friend, you are wasting your e-breath. Even though (as I understand it) you are a native-born Japanese, currently living in Japan, don't you understand that Tony is more 'Japanese' than you will ever be? Tony is the font of all knowledge on matters of Japanese language, history, culture and budo (not to mention the (non)existence of God and Reiki).:rolleyes:

Perhaps someone in the Shorinji Kempo world, who is senior to Tony, would like to tell him to wind his neck in - on all topics - because he is not currently a good advertisement for your art. I, for one, have lost all interest in finding out more about SK, even though in many ways SK sounds like the sort of art I would love to try. As Tony's point is that, 'your sensei is your parent' and, 'you don't do anything that you sensei wouldn't want you to', I can't see how his behaviour reflects well on his sensei.

I don't imagine anyone expects to agree with everything everyone else on this forum says - I certainly don't - but there is no mileage to be had having a debate with someone who will not allow other people to have a their own views. Tony makes many valid points in some of his posts but even when I agree with him he annoys me with his lack of willingness to civilly acknowledge another person's point of view.

Apologies to all, but I would love to see an interesting e-conversation that did not revolve around the Cult of Kimpatsu.:mad:

[Dave Pawson]

amazing what information you find when you look back over years of research into various arts.

I found this to be interesting;

"After Doshin So in 1981, A senior Monk Master Sazuki is in charge of the religious and acedemic side, and two other monks are in charge of the training in the fighting art" Source is Way of the Warrior from the BBC.

Now to my way of thinking it would appear that Religion has a major influence on the Art, so if a student didn't follow all of the art he would surely be changing the fundamentals of the system to fit his own beliefs and as a result would not be following what the head of the system had intended.

So to fully support the system in this case Shorinji Kempo, you have to be a follower of the religion else you have fallen from the path.

Tony also how do you feel that within the art is taught Seiho, that is part of a medical system especially when it belongs to the old "woo wwo " systems. And the fact that senior people wouldn't be able to pass the test you are so famous for promoting.

Because if you omit the religion and the seiho are you also not fundamentally altering the teachings of the art, and are therefor not a traditionalist at all. And if you do practice them, you then run into conflict in you beliefs as you promote them on the board to eveyone else.

This is not an attack on Shorinji Kempo just an observation. I have seen these guys train and they are amazing to watch, definately worth doing if you get chance.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by kage110
[Perhaps someone in the Shorinji Kempo world, who is senior to Tony, would like to tell him to wind his neck in - on all topics - because he is not currently a good advertisement for your art. I, for one, have lost all interest in finding out more about SK, even though in many ways SK sounds like the sort of art I would love to try. As Tony's point is that, 'your sensei is your parent' and, 'you don't do anything that you sensei wouldn't want you to', I can't see how his behaviour reflects well on his sensei.

Kage, it has been pointed out before that the views of Tony are not necessarily the views of the World Shorinji Kempo Organisation. Sometimes they are, sometimes not.

Most Shorinji Kenshi do not make a habit of criticising others for their views. As far as I'm concerned the discussion is fruitless. If you want to learn more about Shorinji Kempo, Edinburgh is a pretty good place to start. Or try Rupert Cox's book. (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0700714758/qid=1063310556/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_0_2/026-5236774-1338050) He is the branchmaster of the Edinurgh dojo.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Dave Pawson
"After Doshin So in 1981, A senior Monk Master Sazuki is in charge of the religious and acedemic side, and two other monks are in charge of the training in the fighting art" Source is Way of the Warrior from the BBC.


Dave - Mizuno Sensei, then and now Chief Instructor of Shorinji Kempo in the UK was shall we say, disappointed with that episode, and wrote letters to the effect to the BBC and I believe the martial arts magazines. Please don't treat that programme as a definitive guide to Shorinji Kempo.

Seiho, is at least partially a verifiable theory. Hitting kyusho has demonstrably repeatable effects. Realigning the skeletal structure is nothing more than (reputable) chiropractics do. Muscle massage is not woo woo.

Religion? Well serious philosophy would be better. There are no supernatural beings in Kongo Zen, and Shorinji Kenshi are encouraged to analyse the world in the here and now and take an active interest in human affairs.

[Dave Pawson]

David

Thanks for the update, as I stated I was not intending to knock Shorinji Kempo. it was just that some of the things Tony has stated are his beliefs fly against what is descibed in various documents.

Kyusho being one of them, Tony has stated on many occasion that Kyusho and meridian's don't exist, which is fine in it self if that is a personal view. But to state that anyone who believes in them are in Woo Woo land, and then trains in a system that believes and teaches them is slightly hypocritical in my opinion.

As this thread started out in the can you have two masters scenario, it has descended into an apparent my art is the only true art syndrome. Utterly meaningless, The art is only as good as the practisioner, whether that is the instructor or a student IMHO.

Lets get back to the origional question, can you study two seperate systems which are fundamentally different from one another.
I would say no, not to any great extent. You could learn extra techniques that you as in individual could benefit from, but you could never add these to your origional system and pass it off as that art. That is reserved for the Soke etc of the system.

Budo to me is a system which is deeply routed in Japan, and does not have it near past in China or any other country or in a sports environment.

[Ade]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
...Actually I think the problem is not that Tony is a traditionalist and believes strongly that techniques should be passed down untouched from the founder inperpetuity. The problem is that he does not believe any other style besides his is capable of doing so....
Originally posted by kage110
... don't you understand that Tony is more 'Japanese' than you will ever be? Tony is the font of all knowledge on matters of Japanese language, history, culture and budo....Perhaps someone in the Shorinji Kempo world, who is senior to Tony, would like to tell him to wind his neck in - on all topics - because he is not currently a good advertisement for your art. I, for one, have lost all interest in finding out more about SK, even though in many ways SK sounds like the sort of art I would love to try....I don't imagine anyone expects to agree with everything everyone else on this forum says - I certainly don't - but there is no mileage to be had having a debate with someone who will not allow other people to have a their own views. ... Originally posted by David Dunn
Kage, it has been pointed out before that the views of Tony are not necessarily the views of the World Shorinji Kempo Organisation. Sometimes they are, sometimes not....

Tony.
You have one mouth and two ears.
Use them in that proportion.
Listen to others.
They have a right to an opinion.

Ade

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Dave Pawson
39th Kanto University Competition
Tokyo University Shorinji Kempo Club has got the 3rd position on total score.
Like the use of "religion" on English language pages, it's open to misinterpretation in the West, but the notion is definitely rooted in cooperation, not competition; embu is the ultimate form of cooperation, after all--it's like a marriage. (That metaphor is always used as Shorinji Kempo weddings.) For something to be competition, you're attempting to prove you're better than the others, whereas the spirit of Shorinji Kempo is intended to foster cooperation between embu pairs. In essence, the only person with whom you're in competition is yourself: to be better each day than you were the last.
HTH.

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Dave Pawson
Lets get back to the origional question, can you study two seperate systems which are fundamentally different from one another.
I would say no, not to any great extent. You could learn extra techniques that you as in individual could benefit from, but you could never add these to your origional system and pass it off as that art. That is reserved for the Soke etc of the system.

The obvious answer is that you can train in as many things as you like, as often or as little as you like. Is it beneficial? Depends what your criteria are. It may well make you a better figher, but so will getting into and surviving lots of fights, or arming yourself to the teeth. My criteria are different. I try to take the 'do' part of budo seriously, which means that I follow one teacher who I trust to criticise me and guide me. I would feel unhappy with myself to say the least if I went and studied somewhere else as well. I want to study and master the hokei of Shorinji Kempo. I want to be the kind of person that is self-reliant.

My understanding of 'budo' is that do is more important than the bu, but that the bu gives you the confidence to follow the do. Shorinji Kempo is budo in that sense. You can choose to follow the do or not, but I think ultimately what you get will be more valuable than aiming to simply become a double-hard b@stard.

I'll happily be quite opinionated about Shorinji Kempo, but it's not my place to tell non-Shorinji people how they should conduct their training. By the same token I might not ask non-Shorinji people how I should conduct my training.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ade
They have a right to an opinion.
No, they have a right to an informed opinion. And how can they possibly know more about Shorinji Kempo that you or I? (You even mispronounce "dogi"!)
Forthe same reason, I never venture into the Aikido or karate forums (unless, as in the case of karate, it was to ask a question.)
Do you argue with your doctor over medical advice or your lawyer over legal advice? So why argue with me over this?

[David Dunn]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
Like the use of "religion" on English language pages, it's open to misinterpretation in the West, but the notion is definitely rooted in cooperation, not competition; embu is the ultimate form of cooperation, after all--it's like a marriage. (That metaphor is always used as Shorinji Kempo weddings.) For something to be competition, you're attempting to prove you're better than the others, whereas the spirit of Shorinji Kempo is intended to foster cooperation between embu pairs. In essence, the only person with whom you're in competition is yourself: to be better each day than you were the last.
HTH.

Tony, if all your posts were this way you'd antagonise far less people :laugh:

[elder999]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, they have a right to an informed opinion. And how can they possibly know more about Shorinji Kempo that you or I? (You even mispronounce "dogi"!)
Do you argue with your doctor over medical advice or your lawyer over legal advice? So why argue with me over this?

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21495 :rolleyes:

[Mekugi]

Just as a reference here,

Didn't So Doshin study different kinds of Budo, from different teachers?

Ueshiba did, Kano did, Funakoshi most definately did. All of them studied from different people and had no accusations of being a Budo Philanderer.

Now, being a big "practice what you preach" type of guy myself, it seems that they really didn't practice that at all, and I am not sure if they preached it (other than what may be So Doshin, from what I Am reading). How can anyone today be expected not to do the exact same things? I study a couple myself, and I am well rounded for it, IMHO.

I know others, such as Mister D.F. Draeger, who studied a few in his time. Many of the prominant Koryu people around in the USA (and that includes Dave Lowry, who has written on this exact subject)and in Japan have studied other martial arts.

This is not uncommon, and historically it seems this attitude was never really practiced.

always,

-Russ


BTW, Judo started out with just a white uwagi and a fundoshi. I think we should all get back to basics in the hot weather...;)
:toast:

[Ade]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, they have a right to an informed opinion. ***YOURS***
Do you argue with your doctor over medical advice or your lawyer over legal advice?*** yes, it saved me my sight in one eye and a fortune on buying my house*** So why argue with me over this? ***Like them you've got an agenda?***

Tony

I've just come back from a session in which my club captain, a Spanish man, thinks you're a pr*ck.
You told him that the Spanish language was wrong.
You redefine arrogant.
And are putting people off Shorinji Kempo.
Geddit?

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by David Dunn
Tony, if all your posts were this way you'd antagonise far less people :laugh:
That's only because people aren't listening, David.
I'd rather be principled than popular.

[Soulend]

I believe it depends on a few things:

The arts, your level of experience in your core art, and what you wish to accomplish.

If the arts are fairly similar, like two striking arts, I think I would get confused, especially if I had not reached a level of competency in my core art before pursuing another. If one were to practice boxing and iaido I don't see that they would conflict.

If you wish to become a better fighter, it would seem that some cross-training over a period of years is a good idea; adding grappling, striking, weapon arts and ground fighting to your tool box. Each martial system is comprised of what worked for a particular person or group of people at one time under particular conditions. A straight boxer is at a disadvantage when on the ground with a Greco-Roman wrestler, just as a TKD exponent who relies on his high, powerful kicks is going to have problems fighting in deep snow or ice.

As to whether this is somehow "cheating on" your sensei, guess it depends on your sensei. However, martial artists of all sorts (including Kano, Ueshiba, and Funikoshi) studied different styles under different sensei, as did quite a few outstanding bushi of old.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
However, martial artists of all sorts (including Kano, Ueshiba, and Funikoshi) studied different styles under different sensei, as did quite a few outstanding bushi of old.
The operative word here, David, is "outstanding". Geniuses like Fanakoshi, Kaiso, Ueshiba, et. al. can cross-train without fear of confusion; mediocre plebs like you and I can't.

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, they have a right to an informed opinion. And how can they possibly know more about Shorinji Kempo that you or I? (You even mispronounce "dogi"!)
Forthe same reason, I never venture into the Aikido or karate forums (unless, as in the case of karate, it was to ask a question.)
Do you argue with your doctor over medical advice or your lawyer over legal advice? So why argue with me over this?

Well I don't know about others, but I wasn't arguing with you about anything. Merely pointing out that it is somewhat hipocriphal to tell other people that their arts are delusional if they think their lineage is legitimate, while claiming that your art will remain 100% pure 1000 years from now.

Didn't even post for your benefit at all really. Just amazed by the audacity and authoritarian nature of your claims enough to comment.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Mekugi
Didn't So Doshin study different kinds of Budo, from different teachers?
Yes, one at a time, not all at once. And he was a genius; these "philanderers" (not my word) are not.
Why do dojo-hoppers always compare themselves with people of the stature of Kaiso and Ueshiba for justification? (Rhetorical question, but...)
Why don't they compare themselves to their fellow dojo-hoppers? Becasue it would undermine their position?

[Soulend]

The operative word here, David, is "outstanding". Geniuses like Fanakoshi, Kaiso, Ueshiba, et. al. can cross-train without fear of confusion; mediocre plebs like you and I can't.

Perhaps this is part of the reason why they were outstanding - they were exposed to a variety of different techniques and principles. As the goal of a sensei is to produce students that are progressively better than those who came before- thus strengthening the art - it is self-defeating to not at least attempt to emulate the truly great, and instead choose an easier path which leads to mediocrity.

All styles are limited in scope and application, these men chose to not be limited by them. If they, and hundreds (thousands?) of others had, we would still be bashing each other with stones, as that would be the extent of our martial knowledge.

That said, to me it's a personal choice. If you choose to study different styles, good. If you choose to study only one, also good.

And actually I can and have, though I certainly won't deny being a mediocre plebe :D.

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Ade
I've just come back from a session in which my club captain, a Spanish man, thinks you're a pr*ck.
You told him that the Spanish language was wrong.[/B][/QUOTE]
No, I said their use of Japanese was wrong. Pay attention.
Originally posted by Ade
You redefine arrogant.
As in "arrogant now means principled enough to stick to the truth in the teeth of massive opposition"?

[Tripitaka of AA]

Hello. Don't worry, it's just me :wave:

I have avoided this thread until tonight. The title alone made me wary of what I might find. Sure enough it has been one of those threads :rolleyes: .

Have you ever had two people say the same thing to you, where one of them made you smile and agree and the other made you want to punch them on the nose. My wife had a really great boss, who knew how to talk to people and get he best from his staff. The guy who took over just managed to get everyone fuming and ready to plot a hideous murder. After a particularly fraught meeting with him (which was followed by immediate phonecalls to job agencies that within a few weeks led to a new job elsewhere), we reflected on what he'd actually said. In the end, we realised that the original Boss could have said exactly the same things and all would have been rosy.

Kimpatsu has some of those qualities. That probably qualify him to be an excellent Uke ;)


Having said that. I have seen some awesome posts on this thread and anyone who contributed has done an outstanding job of remaining calm and civil. To have managed to do so in the face of something as irritating as Kimpatsu the Unabashed, is worthy of praise in itself. I sometimes worry that there might be too much testosterone among all these fighting warrior types, but you have shown how well you can follow the spirit of Budo, by restraining yourselves.

It is a good job that Tony can be funny sometimes. I'm told that he buys a round when required too, so he can't be all bad.

He even encourages me to post more, despite my lack of knowledge and lack of recent training. I see how his views could represent the public face of Shorinji Kempo, and I have to try and offer an alternative. Don't worry, it's just me:wave:

[Kimpatsu]

That's a point on which I've written before, David:
People oppose what I write not becasue it's wrong, but becasue it's ME who's saying it. People ignore the content, and attack the man. All style, no substance.
Where's the rationality in that?

[Mekugi]

Jigoro Kano was given his first taecher rank in spite of his inexperience or skill- it was dropped in his lap. Gichin Funakoshi simply took several kata from two different prominant branches of "Koryu karate" for lack of a better term, and brought it to mainland Japan. Funakoshi himself was under the opinion that he was fairly unskilled when he was teaching and that he was merely the vessel.

It seems to me that when these two men were cross-training there was nothing "exceptional" about them. It also seems to me that Kano and Funakoshi were still in the process of learning and changing things when they died.

Ueshiba, well, there is more unknown about him than there is known. He seems to have been proficient in Daito Ryu before he was cross training- but he still managed to train in a few others all the while.


-Russ

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
That's a point on which I've written before, David:
People oppose what I write not becasue it's wrong, but becasue it's ME who's saying it. People ignore the content, and attack the man. All style, no substance.
Where's the rationality in that?

No Tony, I like you a lot. I think you're a good fellow. We simply have different views on some things. Ergo, you're wrong.:laugh:

[Kimpatsu]

Originally posted by Soulend
No Tony, I like you a lot. I think you're a good fellow. We simply have different views on some things. Ergo, you're wrong.:laugh:
No, you are. ;)

[Tripitaka of AA]

#It ain't what you say, it's the way that you say it...

I think I made it clear that Tony is despite appearances to the contrary, actually quite a nice chap. It is only the way that he speaks/types that causes the trouble.

But enough of the One-Man Thread Drift, how about a topic where Tony can't take over and make it his own. Perhaps we can talk about something Japanese that Tony isn't an expert on.... nope, not likely to find that ;)

How about; "Top 100 ways to dye your Dogi"

"My new Kata, how I came to improve on Sensei's teachings"

"My Karate Sensei taught me this brilliant Wing Chun move that I used at my Aikido class and it knocked out the TKD guy just as we started the Randori competition"

"Poll: what colour should my Hakama be this season?"

[Soulend]

No, you. :p

[Soulend]

But enough of the One-Man Thread Drift, how about a topic where Tony can't take over and make it his own. Perhaps we can talk about something Japanese that Tony isn't an expert on.... nope, not likely to find that

'Koryu: How I based my authoritative conclusions upon zero knowledge whatsoever'

Alternate title: "Who are Donn Draeger, Karl Friday, and Ellis Amdur? Forget about them and that Otake Risuke guy! Let me enlighten you about pre-Meiji bugei!"

[Mekugi]

I think you would really enjoy this book Tony:

Keiko Shokan (http://koryu.com/store/ks3.html)

It has a lot of topics that are up your alley, and some very fine Western writings on subjects I think you would find interesting.

(Five Stars)


-R

[Dave Pawson]

Tony

You stated in an earlier post

"People oppose what I write not becasue it's wrong, but becasue it's ME who's saying it. People ignore the content, and attack the man. All style, no substance.
Where's the rationality in that?"

Where did I (that is me personally attack you, All I was asking was a simple set of questions to elicite a debate.

That said, it is good that you have such a strong feeling about your life within Budo, it is to be commended. What I was asking was how do you personally get around(probably wrong wording here) ideals that appear so against your own beliefs.

One example Seiho.

Not an attack, just a question. But by branding anyone that opposes you purely based on who you are is not always correct. There is no rational in that either.

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
No, they have a right to an informed opinion. And how can they possibly know more about Shorinji Kempo that you or I?
Forthe same reason, I never venture into the Aikido or karate forums

Umm, have a look where this thread is located? This thread isn't about Shrinji Kempo, it's about martial arts generally. I'm perfectly willing to accept everything you say as applicable to Shorinji Kempo - what I take issue with is the notion that yours is the one true way.

The operative word here, David, is "outstanding". Geniuses like Fanakoshi, Kaiso, Ueshiba, et. al. can cross-train without fear of confusion; mediocre plebs like you and I can't.

I can and do cross-train without confusion - in fact, since I started cross-training, my ability in my core art has improved tremendously. I guess I'm not a "mediocre pleb". I suspect David isn't either. Tony, if you had just left out the words "like you", nobody would be arguing.

Originally posted by Kimpatsu
People oppose what I write not becasue it's wrong, but becasue it's ME who's saying it.

Nope, sometimes you are just wrong. I have never attacked you about atheism, because - as annoying as your debating style is - you are broadly right. Here, by presuming to force your own value judgements and blinkered world view on the rest of us mediocre plebs, you are just wrong.

:p

Cheers,

Mike

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Cross training is like riding a bike.

If you've only got one pedal you can only push once until you have to ease off and let it rise.

If you have got 2 pedals you can push each one individually, not pushing the pedals at the same time, if you push each one individually then you get along the road more efficiantly.



That sounded better last night :rolleyes:

Cheers

[Mike Williams]

Cross-training is like training for road-racing and mountain-biking simultaneously. While you may need to focus just on one if you want to be the next Lance Armstrong, doing both will certainly make you better equipped for cutting through the filfy streets of London.

Cheers,

Mike

[monkeyboy_ssj]

I think yours makes more sense ;)

[Tripitaka of AA]

Cross training is bad attitude.

I always prefer happy training.

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Cross training is bad attitude.

I always prefer happy training.

Lol! I hate you Billy Bully punch bag!:mad:

Cheers

[Mekugi]

Good one!

I hafta steal that....I love dry humor.

BTW, I feel that Tony is entitled to his opinion just as everyone else, and I don't take offense at the way he speaks; primarily because I have met him and undestand his tone. That makes all the difference, methinks.

-Russ

Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
Cross training is bad attitude.

I always prefer happy training.

[Vapour]

As far as Morihei are concered, he never bothered. I read this akikidoka who decided to practice from Taiwanese taichichuan master. Quite few senior students made fuss about it in the same line as Tony so the guy just went to Ueshiba Morihei and asked. The answer was "Do whatever you want."

As of only masters can do cross training, this is plainly not the case, Literaly 10 of thousands of police men and women in Japan cross train in Judo, Aikido and Kendo because they *need* to do so. If you want to be a better fighter, there is no question as to the benefit of cross training.

Tony, as of you emphasising DO in BU-DO, you seems to implies that Shorinji Kenshi are less of a fighter than people who cross train. Plus, if ultimate purpose of budo is to improve oneself, what's wrong with cross training and becoming a better budoka?