Leni-Lenape Indian Pow-wow ...

[bruceb]

Last Saturday, Sept 20, the local Leni-Lenape Indians had a little dance, a pow-wow to entertain the tourist at beautiful Smithville in Atlantic County, NJ while the Decoy and Duck Show in Tuckerton, NJ was going on at the same time.

It was a quiet day, and many traveling exhibitors did not make the trip due to the Hurricane, Isabel, and there was a fairly brisk but lighter than normal crowd at the Pow-wow too.

I, for one, don't enjoy big crowds, but the rather small village of Smithville and this particular education for the public, as well as getting a chance to make contact with the local population, was quite a stirring cross section of Americana that isn't always taught in the public schools.

How many you, around America that is, actually know or realize there are still tribes and Indian Reservations of some type near you?

Do any of you attend these social get togethers, or do you try to avoid these social get togethers?

I was just wondering?

Train in Budo, and yet ignore the spiritual and historical significance of local populations? Sometimes I think foreigners learn more about becoming Americans than Americans who are natural born citizens. Maybe we should all learn more about he spiritual significance of our native land before we endeavor to learn about the Japanese and the lessons of Budo?

What do you think?

[Soulend]

I think you're right. Native traditions are an invaluable cultural asset. Americans should endeavor to learn more, instead of just the history of the white man in the U.S. There is a wealth of history and legend in the numerous tribes throughout the U.S., Canada, and Mexico. I think we can learn from these cultures, and they sometimes seem far more interesting and pure than what is taught about "U.S. History" in schools.

[Kimpatsu]

Intersting point Bruce, and David. Just last Saturday evening, I was watching a documentary about the Miami Circle, which is a prehistoric settlement of the now-extinct Tequesta people, found on the site of a real estate development adjacent to the Miami river. Among the people interviewed was the property developer, who betrayed his ignorance when he said, "America is a young country. We only have 200 years of history, so how can there be a prehistoric settlement here?"
Guess someone should tell him about these people called "Native Americans"...

[A. M. Jauregui]

I think that you are absolutely right Bruce. The plight, teachings and historical significance of all Native American tribes and nations are overlooked by far too many.

Generally I do care to criticize governmental action but the Native America situation should most definitely be a call to arms. Because of my travels I find that the “average“ American believes that Native Americans are either well taken care of by Uncle Sam or rolling in affluence do to a casino. If only they have seen the things that I have seen.

[bruceb]

Although the Americans of todays settlements, and increased population density in a land of limited resources, yep throw out the old unlimited values, some values of our American sociey still ignore basic facts of ecology.

It has only taken less than sixty years, since WW 2, to reach the boundarys of what the land can support in human and animal population. The fact is there is not enough land put aside or properly interspersed in the human population to allow many of the former thriving animals to continue to safely roam free. In the veiw of a people who would make their nitch in a land where they lived with nature, it would seem the purpose of todays American is to subjugate, erradicate, and pervert the purpose of living on the land to personal profit and not use this life we are given to enjoy the lessons of being alive.

Native Americans will not outright tell you any lessons, but they will slowly get to know who a person is and what a person does. Observation of an overall character, and suspicion may seem to be contrary to the European way of thinking, but then you have to remember two things. One .... the Majority of the population of the North American Continent are from European Continent, and Two .... The east coast and the west coast of that continent seems to have been settled by ancestors of two different Continents, Europe and Asia. Separate the people of the same ancestors by 20,00 years, and two different identitys arise.

Many scholars are working on this puzzle, and with some insight most people can see how the intermingling of the two cultural settlers happened thousands of years before the first ships of the Eqyptian Age ever traded with the eastern merchants.

Sometime I wonder if there is a genetic connection of some human beings to understand beyond the sciences of the modern age and that is why we seek the myths and legends of past ages while pursueing this BUDO which eventually is a mix of the spiritual and practical applications .... much like the path of those Ancestors or cousins we call ... Native American Indians.

Genetically, and from tales of the storykeepers, there are recognized closer cousins of certain people around the world, not just other tribes or clans within nearby territories or states. The story goes that many thousands of years ago a small group was transported to turtle island by the mother earth during a great flood, and this land was given to those people.

Noah and ark all over again? Could be.

I think we should explore as much of the culture of the Japanese in our pursuit of our lessons of Budo, as the education of our youth should lead us to the lessons of those people who were in the North American Continent for as far back as 50,000 -75,000 years ago. ( At least that is what I am told if one compares the stories to actual volcano eruptions, floods, and other archeological evidence.)

The more I learn from studying the lessons of Native Americans, the easier it seems to be to understand the lessons of Budo.

It could be just me, but I don't think so.

As Far as A. M.'s comments of the plight of the Native American, I am sad to say that he stripping of cultural identification from ancestors of Native Americans has taken away some of the natural healing and adapation for psychological / physical ailments which are now identified as ADD, or other personality / learning disabilities among the general population. It would seem that the natural hunting and social skills developed were akin to the physical and genetic developement of these people to find a place and purpose for those who could do whatever they could do to benefit the family unit, clan, and tribal support structure.

Obviously, in the context of European Industrial social structure the thought process is not that much different but then again how much cultural developement is necessary for most students to become comfortable with the structure of Japanese Based Martial arts, and the concepts of Budo?

One adapts to the constraints of the environment, incurs social and physical constraints by the interaction of societys in that environment , and the human body adapts and changes to the nutrients and conditions of that environment. At least it would seem to be so if one is to believe the entire human race is the result of a few thousand survivors after the last great ice age.

After the purges and misinformation of the last 500 years of the European conquerors with their technology and religion, it would seem the resurgence of looking for the history of the human race is once again proving that humanity has risen and fallen with the world wide disasters of Planet earth. The theory that we are from one tribe does not seem to be holding up as more and more research continues.

Maybe it is just me, hearing the drums, the chants of the drumbeaters, and the songs that come alive like some forgotten memory pulled out of my very fiber, but somewhere in all of us .... is a connection to the land, a past lineage of ancestors, and an instinctual link to the living breathing mother earth.

If it can not be found with just the studys of Budo, may some augmented studys in the ancient people of where you were born might awaken those connections?

[koma]

Pow-wows rock. Being part Native American, I have been exposed to them since I was a small tyke. The feeling of togetherness, family, really stirs something inside. The singing, drums and dancing still make my head spin. I love it!
Whenever I travel here in the states, I always try to seek out the local Native American culture. Though there are fewer and fewer "old ones", there is something magical about making aquaintence with one and sitting and talking the evening away about their lives and the history of their people.

[G. Zepeda]

Yes, Europeans decimated just about every population they could find over here. If they could not destroy or enslave them outright, they would buy them off, gaining their trust, and back stab them with treaties and violence.
It's been happening since Columbus first landed, and continues to this day.

[bruceb]

I don't know if the land sale will hold up, but in 2800 AD the USA is supposed to give back all the lands it rented from the Iroquois.

But if history is any gauge of the Treatys that have been signed in the past, this too will not come to pass and western New York state will remain as it is, if any ancestors survive in eight hundred years.

As far as out Budo studies, I believe the studies in local cultures is a great benefit in understanding the many intricacies of Budo.

As silly as it sounds, I guess the Boy Scouts are a form of training in Budo? Or at least it should be. Maybe if a program to integrate the hunting and survival skills of local native cultures and the martial arts program of Budo were added to Scouting, we could weed out these Gay-Blades who seem to pop up in the news now and then?

Sorry gay boys, but if you want to like men, get a sex change. At least then you will be socially/ politically correct.

[Kolschey]

Good topic, Bruce. Here in RI, I am in close distance to the remnants of several original tribes.

On the other hand, it's a shame that you have decided to make an issue out of homosexuality, as a tangent off of this discussion.
While the basic topic of understanding and appreciating the local history and culture is is a good one, I really don't see the need to introduce inflamatory rhetoric about gay folks.

[Ron Tisdale]

On the other hand, it's a shame that you have decided to make an issue out of homosexuality, as a tangent off of this discussion.

AGREED.

Ron

[G. Zepeda]

"Thank goodness. If not for that, we wouldn't exist over here."

Hmmm, might be true, OTOH, we might very well exist over here without all that violence and oppression. So much so, that we now have distinct difference between "American" culture and "Native American" culture. Indigenous folks are the only ones that can truly call themselves Americans, even then, a borrowed and ascribed name.

Yes, it seems that the most homophobic are indeed the closet homosexuals.

[G. Zepeda]

No, I agree, if it wasn't for poor ol' Cristobal, we probably wouldn't be here. I also agree that we cannot relive history, only correct our mistakes of the past. We all make mistakes, and your existance here does not mean that mistakes were not made. Unless, you are perfect, and have 12 loyal followers calling you Hey-Zeus.
My kendo sensei is fond of saying that mistakes learned are mistakes repeated.:D
In other words, we don't have to continue to make the same mistakes our forefathers did, we can improve upon their vision(Not saying our forefathers were/ are entirely bad people).
That is part of what makes history a valuable tool. Of course, the winners write the history books, so there's not much responsibility in being ethnocentric; it is what we are taught.

[bruceb]

Maybe Columbus was the first to get here, but if he hadn't made the trip someone else would have in the next 100 years.

The developement of ships was progressing at such a rate it was virtually inevitable.

As far as my homophobia, my personal feelings or thoughts have nothing to do in my tolerance of people and how they want to live. Just my biased, silly opinion. Most homosexual men would retort to my statement with, " But My dear, I AM a woman on the weekends!" To which I would have to laugh at the irony.

Anyway ... enough of that.

Back to Budo and studying local cultures.

[Iain]

Honestly, I am surprised that when I talk to most people down in the states they know little or nothing about the native history within their area, even when they live near a reservation. Near Calgary we've got cree, blackfoot, sarcee, peigan, and a whole host of other Native-American bands living nearby. In the city, we've got a fairly large Inuit population along with the treaty Indian populations from the reserves. There is a fair bit of racism towards them, however. I've never immersed myself in Native culture, but I think it behooves us to study and understand our geographical predecessors at least to some extent. A lot of people don't know the difference between first nations people and native americans, or the difference between treaty Indians and non-treaty peoples.

I don't think 'thank goodness' is the appropriate term for describing the pogroms we undertook against the native populations. Yes they happened, and we -as descendants- can't really apologize for what our ancestors did, but we do have an obligation to honour the treaty agreements that were signed between ourselves and the native populations, and to pay reparations where contracts were coerced or broken. That's just obeying the law. We drafted purposefully vague agreements in a lot of cases, and used the natives lack of understanding of contract law to manipulate them. On other occasions, we outright broke our own law for the sake of expediency. A lot of people up here piss and moan that we're giving 'too much' to the natives in terms of financial assistance. I don't know how many of you have ever been to a reservation, but you couldn't pay me all the money in the world to willingly be born into a life like that. Reservations in many places are third world. Suicide rates are skyrocketing, drug abuse is rampant, and housing is inadequate even by the most basic standards. Now, I'm not saying the people are bad, they have a tough lot, and we signed contracts and passed laws obliging us to provide them with financial aid and the right to self-determination and self-government in some cases. We have an obligation to provide them with what we said we would, it's the law.

Anyway, Thanking anyone for the deaths of millions is a little harsh. The pogroms were a product of greed and merciless expansion. We are living off of land that -by our own standards- was not ours when we arrived here, and that was won through murder and trickery. There's not much that can be done now, but unless we acknowlege that all north american nations are founded on a certain level of dishonesty, we'll never have peaceful and productive relations with the people who got the short end of the stick

[G. Zepeda]

Well said Iain. I have heard that one of the poorest places in the U.S. is the Oglala Sioux reservation. I live very near two reservations, which are also fairly economically underdeveloped.

Bruce, Columbus was not the first person to come here, the indigenous peoples were. That is the point. There is even evidence to suggest he was not the first seafarer to cross the Atlantic in search of the East (speaking of Phoenician and Semitic seafaring artifacts found in South and North America). In hindsight, Manifest Destiny is not the best of policies to incorporate for the survival of all, including the earth. This is something we have learned for ourselves. Mistakes have been made, we must now endeavor to correct them, lest leave this earth ourselves.

[bruceb]

Originally posted by G. Zepeda
Well said Iain. I have heard that one of the poorest places in the U.S. is the Oglala Sioux reservation. I live very near two reservations, which are also fairly economically underdeveloped.

Bruce, Columbus was not the first person to come here, the indigenous peoples were. That is the point. There is even evidence to suggest he was not the first seafarer to cross the Atlantic in search of the East (speaking of Phoenician and Semitic seafaring artifacts found in South and North America). In hindsight, Manifest Destiny is not the best of policies to incorporate for the survival of all, including the earth. This is something we have learned for ourselves. Mistakes have been made, we must now endeavor to correct them, lest leave this earth ourselves.

Oh ... why didn't you say so in the first place ... my point exactly.

I know I am not always direct .. or to the point ... but there is a reason, even if it is a self-serving method of getting some insight into what someone I have never met is thinking.

My apologys Gil.

When I was in the Coast Guard, a number of Native American Indians who were serving their military service time for the Vietnam War would ask me what tribe I belonged to, as if my actions and words were not from being brought up in the European Industrial Sociey, and all I could tell them is that my mother's ancetors were German and Sicilian, and my father's ancestors were Swiss and English. As it turns out, there were a number of intermarriages within the Iroquois/ Six Nations/ Haudensaunee of New York State tribes. I have found ancestors that appear on both roles of tribes and as citizens in census images.

I am a not associated with any tribe or clan at this time, although my brother is presently under the tutelage of the turtle clan in the Senaca tribe ..... strange days are upon us ... the estranged children of two worlds.

I know there are many people who are in the same situation as I, ancestors who are Natives, and yet ancestors from other parts of the world. It really makes no difference of you are from another land, eventually, your children, and their children become part of the land, the culture, and grow a bond for the land they inhabit. They become natives to the land itself.

My point was not to extinguish the old ways, but to understand why and how they came about in light of the modern world and our new technologys that should become part of the harmony of this land. The simularitys to the old ways and the new ways of the European culture are not that far apart when you finally get down to brass tacks. Human beings reacting to and overcoming the emotional and physical problems of our lives.

I dearly wish we could understand many of the problems of the modern Native Americans who have such trouble adapting to the modern world, but the only way for this modern society to understand some of those psychological and physically induced problems is to understand the old culture and why many of the old ways addressed what we see as poverty, drug abuse, and the general problems of society we find in the modern Natives of the North American Continent ... yeah ... Canada too.

Some of the great warriors for the Military has been many a Native American Indian. There must be something in the genetic structure of this culture, the ways of this culture that we can learn from, steal, or use to advance our knowledge of connecting to nature or adapt for our use of learning Budo?

Maybe I am a dreamer, but a gunshot at a funeral to release the spirit of a love one, or the drums of the pow-wow seem to be as spiritual to me as the singing of a hyme at a church service, or a minister delivering a sermon.

Take a look around at the husbantry of the land and tell me we, the new modern society, are doing as good or better than the thousands of years of what has come before? Not that we can't make this modern society work, but we could take a few lessons from every culture in our search for the perfect society, couldn't we?

[G. Zepeda]

Yes, and a good Sweat Lodge will teach one all about religion and spirit. All cultures and races have strong warriors and weak people among them. It is just like the Elk herd. Some are strong and powerful, others are weaker and more sickly. I would not say that we are doing as good a job as some of our ancestors in stewardship of this earth. As a society and culture we are actively engaged in destroying the earth and much of the life on it. Whole ecosystems are brought down with every rain forest tree, the amphibians are in dire danger, the oceans are screaming for help, we are in a mess. If it does not affect us directly and immediately, it might as well not even have happened.

[John Lindsey]

Interesting discussion! First of all, there are many kinds of Indians and we should not group them together in a stereotypical fashion. Yes, I think we can learn from the Indians, but I don’t think they have any genetic disposition to be a warrior. While they were good warriors, I would not use them as a model of military tactics and organization. They won a few battles but lost the war and the land.

As for the Indian’s stereotype as ecologists, I wonder about this at times. Were they even capable of causing damage to their habitat with such primitive technology? Can me make the jump in logic that because the ecology was not damaged, that it was the Indian’s philosophy that was the cause? Don’t the immediate needs of the tribe out way any environmental concerns? For instance, driving hundreds of buffalo off a cliff and only eating what they can, letting the rest go to waste? Did such things happen? Maybe…

[Robinson]

Mr. Lindsey you have a valid point about not grouping all Native American together, either as good or bad.

Much of the idea of Native Americans as ecologists has come from what was written by/about Chief Seattle. However most tribes did understand the need to respect the earth and had some way of acknowledging that the earth was "giving" to them anything they took through hunting/gathering/farming. This point of view actually made it very easy for the first settlers to "take advantge" of the natives who could not fathom the idea of someone owning the land.

[bruceb]

Tribes, Clans, Totems of different clans, and different families within all ... good point John Lindsey.

Actually, human beings are no different in causeing their own lines of separation than the divisions of people found within any country, around the world.

There are, of course, cousins, and distant relations within the various Natives of the American Continent just as within the countrys of Europe, or Great Britian itself the clear lines of lineage and culture can be drawn with accents and identification to particular towns or districts.

I used to have a map of the different tribes in North America ... let me see if I can get a picture of it for you guys.

[bruceb]

Here is a map from a book about Lacrosse....


.....and ... where my house and Warren Pa is located ... kinda sorta....

[bruceb]

Map of the Northeast tribes from another book....

One must realize that these areas are general areas of settlement by tribes before 1700, or specific areas where artifacts have been found for these tribes.

[bruceb]

One more time ...

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by G. Zepeda
Well said Iain. I have heard that one of the poorest places in the U.S. is the Oglala Sioux reservation. I live very near two reservations, which are also fairly economically underdeveloped.


Yeah, the Pine Ridge Reservation, I believe, western SD. Ironically, it's only about 100 miles from Rapid City, the second largest city in the state and a heavy tourism center - the Black Hill, which, if I understand correctly, formerly a sacred site for the Sioux tribes. The U.S. Government promised the Hills would belong to the Sioux forever, but that only lasted until gold was found. Now there's a bunch of dead white guys carved in the face of a mountain there.

Indians West River have been getting screwed over quite frequently ever since.


Bruce, Columbus was not the first person to come here, the indigenous peoples were. That is the point. There is even evidence to suggest he was not the first seafarer to cross the Atlantic in search of the East (speaking of Phoenician and Semitic seafaring artifacts found in South and North America). In hindsight, Manifest Destiny is not the best of policies to incorporate for the survival of all, including the earth. This is something we have learned for ourselves. Mistakes have been made, we must now endeavor to correct them, lest leave this earth ourselves.

There seems to have been 3 waves of migration to the New World. The first wave appears to have been a people related to the Ainu - in indigenous people pushed out when the Japanese moved to the islands from the mainland.

[bruceb]

I saw something that really was interesting, it was that 5000 years ago the water level was about 150 feet lower than it is today. Now, if that is true, and the Ice Age lowered the level of the water even lower than that, what land bridges might have existed just with the topography of the world today?

Interesting idea, eh? The continents would be quite a bit bigger than they are today if the oceans of the world were 150 feet lower than today, and who knows what civilizations are simply underwater?

You know what? That road in near Bimini that was leading out into the Atlantic Ocean could very well lead to a lose civilization. What the hey, they just found Herculon near Alexandria, Egypt, and that was under water ...

I wonder what other legends of the longhouse will prove themselves out in future years as expolorers find more and more undersea cities?

Maybe this is getting off the topic, but just the possibility of land bridges, or short spans of water instead of the spans we have today, could change the face of modern Archeology, and science, couldn't it?

[seskoad]

Talking about colombus. History says tha he's the first westerner who stepped foot on american soil. But why your continental called america not colombia?

[bruceb]

I remember the continent being named by Verpucci Amerigo? Columbus discovered the Carribean and Amerigo the mainland.

Go to your search engine and ask, there should be something in there.

[Senjojutsu]

Bruce,

The correct name of the Italian is Amerigo Vespucci.

Two short histories about the man and how the "new continent" was named after him can be found at:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15384b.htm

http://www.studyworld.com/Amerigo_Vespucci.htm

Me, I would like to say the Mafia was behind this naming scam, but I don't want my legs broken.
:p

[bruceb]

I was surprised I remembered that at all, frontwards or backwards.

[bruceb]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Thank goodness. If not for that, we wouldn't exist over here.


In case you are wondering what this quote is in reference to, we were talking about how the colonials cheated, killed, and swindled the native population out of the land, when in fact the native population would put aside pieces of land where the new people could settle and integrate into the tribal system of the North American Continent.

I get ticked off when someone who is supposed to be well informed about the subject, like Phil Elmore , jumps in with such a stupid bigoted quote that entirely is innaccurate about how the many of the Native Population allowed settlements on this continent and fostered the growth of said settlements.

The fact is, when the settlers tried to live outside of the laws of each tribal nation, the real trouble began.


I really hate this type of bigotry in a post, because the fact is, we would still exist in this continent despite the twisted image that Sharp Phil seems to think is the correct one.

No wonder the Indian Casinos for the Native Americans are full of Americans who want to spend their money on games of chance? What kind of morality does that boast for our society?

I hope the Native Americans take the time to buy big chunks of property and annex them to the Reservations the same way the USA annexed property to the growing UNITED STATES in the days of Manifest destiny.

So there ...

Funny how what goes around ... comes around?

Not enough street people assaulting you in your neighborhood, Phil? Well ... the Casino is open .... ready to take house and home from any white man .... including ... Sharp Phil.

Don't mind me ... I am watching Imus in the morning.

I am just a little annoyed at the Thank you, Mr. Columbus attitude.