re we really nice people?

[william northcote]

Regarding this story, are we really all that nice to be who we are towards others?

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/3222321.stm)

Gypsy effigies burnt on bonfire


The Firle bonfire party has been criticised
Residents were shocked after a caravan with effigies of gypsies was burnt at a village bonfire party.
The caravan was wheeled through a street in Firle, East Sussex, before being torched.

Now the Commission for Racial Equality has called for those responsible to be prosecuted for incitement to racial hatred - which can lead to a jail term of up to seven years.

One resident has said she was sickened by the show on Saturday and that many others were shocked by what they saw.

Patricia Knight, who was at the bonfire with her seven-year-old daughter, said: "A caravan was wheeled down the street which portrayed women and children inside, with 'pikey' written on the back and the image of a scantily-clad woman standing in the door.

"I could see other people looking shocked and I could hear shouts of 'racists' directed at the bonfire society and 'shame'."


Villagers chose the effigies after gypsies were evicted from the area

Part of the celebration at Firle is said to be that no-one knows in advance what the effigy is going to be.

Villagers, who have asked not to be named, have said the effigy was chosen after the recent eviction of travellers from a nearby field.

After the event, images of the event were posted on the internet.

But Richard Gravett, chairman of Firle Bonfire Society, said: "There was no racist slant towards anyone from the travelling community. If anything, it's actually completely the other way.

"It is to try to make people sit up and listen and realise that these people obviously - as all of us do - need somewhere to live."

'Racial hatred'

Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE), said the organisers of the bonfire should be prosecuted.

He said: "Gypsies and travellers probably suffer the most discrimination in this country.

"This is clearly an example of incitement to racial hatred. You couldn't really get more provocative than this.

"The police have to take it seriously. If we are asked at the CRE, we will say this case should be pursued and the people involved should be punished - which can lead to seven years in prison.

"The idea that you can carry out an act like this and then apologise and get away with it, is exactly what produces a culture that says racism and discrimination and victimisation of people, because of what they are, is OK."


It seems that even in a way of trying to draw attention to a problem, they made things worse.

[kage110]

Stories like this make me lose any faith I had in our society...:mad: Seen in the best possible light it was an unbelievably stupid thing to do but I, for one, don't believe that it did not have very strong racist undertones, whatever the comments/apologies after the event said.

[william northcote]

The way the effigy was portrayed in a stereotypical manner along with a derogatory comment as a numberplate seemed not a good idea. Whoever thought of it decent to place the effigies in that light along with the numberplate either was not thinking or has some racist views towards travellers.

Even though some (not all) travellers are good people that live in a way that is not common to everyday people, they are people none the less.

[larsen_huw]

I think the movie Snatch sums it up nicely:

I f**king hate Pikeys

I really do.

Never met one who hasn't tried to rob me.

We had a load move in round the back of our school, took almost 5 years to get rid of them.

Our long jump pit was used as their toilet. They used to break into the school. They'd come into the playground at lunchtimes and start beating the younger kids for their lunch money. One of my mate's got attacked by one of their dogs. Me and a group of friends got attacked 3-4 times on our way home. They left the place ankle deep in rubbish, human waste and smelling like a sewer everytime the police managed to get them to move on. Then 3 weeks later they'd be back again, and the whole process would start again. The council tried putting bollards up, large concrete blocks were placed by the entrances, but they'd still break in and set up camp.

This went on for almost 5 years, until the land was turned into a 5-a-side football area with 7-8 pitches, and there was no-where for them to set up camp. We weren't bothered by them after that.

I'd be quite happy to see them roast, as to me they're a sub-human species incapable of a decent act. I'd like to be proved wrong, but i form these opinions based on what i've seen with my own eyes, and what i've seen is pretty damning.

[kage110]

Huw,

Pretty bad experience you have had. Personally I have had no problems with travellers of any decription and I do not know any who have, though a number will tell stories that the had 'heard from a friend' - if you catch my drift.

The issue surrounding travellers is complex and I do not pretend to have all the answers but there is one glaringly obvious one that stands out from your story: I don't know of anywhere in the UK that has set up facilities so that travelling people can come into an area and set up camp in a safe and hygienic manner. No council provides hard-stands to park caravans and trucks on, or fresh water supplies and sewage outlets, or shower blocks and toilets that would allow these people to live in a cleaner manner. The only places that they can set up camp is on brown-field sites and even then they are moved on asap. Can you blame them for being anti-social after being treated in such a manner?

I know there are lots of arguments that could be had on the subject of whether people should be allowed to live like that but it does come down to the freedom of people to do what they want. If people are prevented from doing this and are treated like dirt when they do then they are not going to hold your or my values in much regard. We often reap what we sow.

I'd be quite happy to see them roast, as to me they're a sub-human species incapable of a decent act. I'd like to be proved wrong, but i form these opinions based on what i've seen with my own eyes, and what i've seen is pretty damning.
Hitler had pretty much you view of Gypsies/travellers too and did his best to wipe them out. Are you telling us you agree with him and his methods?

[larsen_huw]

Hugh,

"Heard it from a friend" stories are crap, usually made up or immense hyperbole .... the only story i mentioned earlier which i didn't personally see was the dog attack, but i did see the scratches on my friend's arm, and get threatened by a shotgun-wielding gypo that if we atttacked his dog again, he'd shoot us, so something happened!

There are several London (mainly East London) councils and Essex councils that provide set aside areas for travellers to set up, and some Essex local councils even provide housing for those which want to settle down.

Why do they have to set up camp in urban areas? The countryside has plenty of campsites which, for a fee, will allow you to park your caravan and have the use of the facilities provided you don't make a mess. These travellers resent having to pay money for that, and not being able to make a mess.

I've camped a fair bit, in several countries (only in tents, never in caravans) and have never left any of my campsites in a mess. That didn't cost me anything, just a small amount of time and effort, which i have never seen these people make.

When they show me their abilities to be civilised, i'll change my views. Maybe it's just as well i'm barely in control of my body, let alone a European country, as if those were Hitler's views, then yes, i agree with him. Motorways being a good idea was another one of Hitler's views which i agree with.

Where me and Hitler differ though is while he gladly set them on fire, i wouldn't ..... but i wouldn't piss on one if they were on fire.

Call me an angry young man if you will, say that i'm racist if you wish (not quite sure how that one works .... gypsies don't have a set colour or nationality .... but wouldn't be suprised if someone brings it up ... not you Hugh, but maybe someone else), but my views stand, and will stand until they show me otherwise.

EDIT: I believe i can now invoke Godwin's Law.

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by larsen_huw
say that i'm racist if you wish (not quite sure how that one works .... gypsies don't have a set colour or nationality .... but wouldn't be suprised if someone brings it up ...

Romanies have their own ethnicity, culture and language, so the racist/xenophobic thing could apply. Not that many Romany around though, hence the term 'travellers' which can encompass everything from gypsies, to itinerant tradespeople to dreadlocked crusties...

Originally posted by larsen_huw
EDIT: I believe i can now invoke Godwin's Law.

Nope. It's perfectly valid to compare someone to the Nazis if they express the same philosophy as the Nazis. QUOTE: "I'd be quite happy to see them roast, as to me they're a sub-human species incapable of a decent act." - remember?

I'm sure (I hope) that comment was hyperbole, and made in the heat of the moment, but you can't deny its similarity to Nazi policies towards gypsies.

Cheers,

Mike

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Mike Williams
Romanies have their own ethnicity, culture and language, so the racist/xenophobic thing could apply. Not that many Romany around though, hence the term 'travellers' which can encompass everything from gypsies, to itinerant tradespeople to dreadlocked crusties...


True,

These days gypsies means anyone living out of a transit van or caravan. There is no particular ethnicity attached to them anymore. Romanies are completely differnt from gypsies.

Originally posted by Mike Williams

Nope. It's perfectly valid to compare someone to the Nazis if they express the same philosophy as the Nazis. QUOTE: "I'd be quite happy to see them roast, as to me they're a sub-human species incapable of a decent act." - remember?

I'm sure (I hope) that comment was hyperbole, and made in the heat of the moment, but you can't deny its similarity to Nazi policies towards gypsies.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike, i didn't deny it's similarity, merely saying that Hitler took it a stage or two further than i do. I (falsely it seems) beleived that Goodwin's law was that the first person to compare anyone to the Nazi's loses, rather than first person to falsely compare ....

Yeah, looking back now, the quote was hyperbole. I wouldn't be happy if they roasted, and i wouldn't want to watch, however, if they were to roast, i wouldn't shed a tear for them, and wouldn't piss on them if they were burning.

[kage110]

Huw,

You are an angry young man indeed! But I can see why you, personally, have a problem with the 'gypos'. It is just that a lot of people share the same views without having had your experience and that is just blind racism/prejudice. But are you any less racist? Personally I find the use of the word 'gypo' to be akin to using the 'N' word to describe black people so I would ask that you don't use it here, even if it is only to protect my sensibilities.

Question for you: I am a Scot and if I were to say that the English were all ill-mannered, thieving, lying scum because all the Englishmen I had met fitted that description, could I be accused of racism or prejudice? I would think so because I can't possibly tar 55 million people with the same brush based on the actions of a few. Perhaps the small band of travellers you met were indeed scum but that does not mean that all travellers are.

These days gypsies means anyone living out of a transit van or caravan. There is no particular ethnicity attached to them anymore. Romanies are completely different from gypsies.

The word 'gypsy' does refer to the Romany people so the use of the word 'gypsy' in the above context is wrong. Travellers, tinkers (now a derogatory term but once just a term for the travelling tin-smiths who kept many communities supplied with metal bowls and pots, etc.), and 'pykies' are all terms used to describe a group of people who operate by different principles than static city dwellers. Most terms indicate prejudice but the use of 'gypsy' shows ignorance as well. It is a bit like calling all people from Africa 'Nigerian' because you think that all black people are from Nigeria, despite the fact you have never done anything to learn about Africa.

Mike, i didn't deny it's similarity, merely saying that Hitler took it a stage or two further than i do. I (falsely it seems) believed that Goodwin's law was that the first person to compare anyone to the Nazi's loses, rather than first person to falsely compare ....

I couldn't remember the details of 'Goodwin's Law' when I first brought Hitler into the exchange but I thought someone, somewhere would make such a comment. However the Nazis did try and wipe out the Gypsies (and they were the ethnic Romany people in this case) - and did manage to kill hundreds of thousands of them - and so when someone makes comments about "roasting" travellers because they are "sub-human" then the comparison has to be made. Anyway, I wasn't aware that I was out to 'win' anything.:)

There are several London (mainly East London) councils and Essex councils that provide set aside areas for travellers to set up, and some Essex local councils even provide housing for those which want to settle down.

Why do they have to set up camp in urban areas? The countryside has plenty of campsites which, for a fee, will allow you to park your caravan and have the use of the facilities provided you don't make a mess. These travellers resent having to pay money for that, and not being able to make a mess.

I've camped a fair bit, in several countries (only in tents, never in caravans) and have never left any of my campsites in a mess. That didn't cost me anything, just a small amount of time and effort, which i have never seen these people make.


Travellers flock to the cities because of the same reasons that everyone else does: To make money. Many travellers do (and historically did) live in the countryside and try to make a living doing farm labour but with the increasing mechanisation of farming this is not so viable anymore. Anyway, why shouldn't they be allowed in the cities?

Most campsites will not entertain travellers in any shape or form, whether they are willing to pay for it or not.

I don't know whether travellers 'like' to make a mess or not but I am very aware that some do and I think it is disgusting too. However, if they are not able to access clean water, toilets, rubbish collection facilities and so on, how are they supposed to keep clean and tidy? And if they are treated like dirt by people in your city why should they care if they keep your city clean and tidy? Try an put yourself in their shoes and see what your views would be then.

If some councils do provide sites for travellers, do they provide adequate numbers of these sites and appropriate locations? I don't mean that they should be exactly where the travellers want them to be irrespective of the local population's needs and wishes but they should at least be somewhere other than next door to the local sewage works where I suspect most of them are located.

While we are at it, Huw, are there any other major dislikes/prejudices you would like to divulge? (Apart from nosy Scots, that is...:p )

[Shitoryu Dude]

Never met a Gypsy who wasn't trying to rob me. Even the ones in the USA are nothing more than organized thieves.

:beer:

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by kage110

Huw,

...

Personally I find the use of the word 'gypo' to be akin to using the 'N' word to describe black people so I would ask that you don't use it here, even if it is only to protect my sensibilities.

...

The word 'gypsy' does refer to the Romany people so the use of the word 'gypsy' in the above context is wrong. Travellers, tinkers (now a derogatory term but once just a term for the travelling tin-smiths who kept many communities supplied with metal bowls and pots, etc.), and 'pykies' are all terms used to describe a group of people who operate by different principles than static city dwellers. Most terms indicate prejudice but the use of 'gypsy' shows ignorance as well. It is a bit like calling all people from Africa 'Nigerian' because you think that all black people are from Nigeria, despite the fact you have never done anything to learn about Africa.


Hugh,

Of course, that's fine. I'm sorry if my use of it offended you. What would you prefer i called them? We've established that gypsie isn't the correct term for these folk today, i tried to avoid 'Pikey', as to me that has racial undertones, hinting towards Irish people, and while a majority of these folk are Irish, they all aren't, and it'd be all too easy to end up tarring the Irish with the same brush as them. Traveller sounds very PC and doesn't include those who've semi-perminantly settled down. I tend to use Gypsie or it's shortened form as everyone understands what i mean, and most people, unless the word Romany is included in the description, don't usually link the two. I'm happy to call them whatever gets the meaning across without offending anyone.

Originally posted by kage110

...

Question for you: I am a Scot and if I were to say that the English were all ill-mannered, thieving, lying scum because all the Englishmen I had met fitted that description, could I be accused of racism or prejudice? I would think so because I can't possibly tar 55 million people with the same brush based on the actions of a few. Perhaps the small band of travellers you met were indeed scum but that does not mean that all travellers are.

...


If i had met just one which had displayed the slightest bit of human decency, i wouldn't have the opinion i do. However, i haven't.

If you could put your hand on your heart and say that you'd never met an Englishman which wasn't COMPLETELY ill-mannered and a thieving and lying scumbag, then i would accept your view and try and show you one which wasn't to show you the error of your ways.

If i ever meet a **insert correct, non-offensive name for them here** who shows the slightest hint of human decency, i will change my views and appologise for them.

Originally posted by kage110

...

I couldn't remember the details of 'Goodwin's Law' when I first brought Hitler into the exchange but I thought someone, somewhere would make such a comment. However the Nazis did try and wipe out the Gypsies (and they were the ethnic Romany people in this case) - and did manage to kill hundreds of thousands of them - and so when someone makes comments about "roasting" travellers because they are "sub-human" then the comparison has to be made. Anyway, I wasn't aware that I was out to 'win' anything.:)

...


Like i said to Mike, it looks like i mistakenly mentioned Goodwin's Law. I'm Sorry.


Originally posted by kage110

...

Travellers flock to the cities because of the same reasons that everyone else does: To make money. Many travellers do (and historically did) live in the countryside and try to make a living doing farm labour but with the increasing mechanisation of farming this is not so viable anymore. Anyway, why shouldn't they be allowed in the cities?

...

If some councils do provide sites for travellers, do they provide adequate numbers of these sites and appropriate locations? I don't mean that they should be exactly where the travellers want them to be irrespective of the local population's needs and wishes but they should at least be somewhere other than next door to the local sewage works where I suspect most of them are located.

...


Travellers (i'm assuming this is the correct term for them now), areperfectly entitled to live wherever they wish, providing they have to means and the space to live there.

I wouldn't set up a tent and live in your front garden, without asking your permission and without paying you a penny, simply because it was easier for me to get to work from there.

If someone has the means with which to purchase (or rent) a plot of land to live on, they are welcome to live there .... but they shouldn't live on private or public land without the permission of the landowner.

As to the size and location of these sites, i honestly have no idea whatsoever. I do know the local residents kick up a stink whenever a new site is opened up (it usually makes the local news, which is how i know they exist in the first place).

Originally posted by kage110

...

Most campsites will not entertain travellers in any shape or form, whether they are willing to pay for it or not.

...

I don't know whether travellers 'like' to make a mess or not but I am very aware that some do and I think it is disgusting too. However, if they are not able to access clean water, toilets, rubbish collection facilities and so on, how are they supposed to keep clean and tidy? And if they are treated like dirt by people in your city why should they care if they keep your city clean and tidy? Try an put yourself in their shoes and see what your views would be then.


I know most campsites will not entertain travellers. If they've had bad experiences with them in the past, why should they? If you were renting a room out, and someone moved in, made an aweful mess of it and then left without paying, wouldn't you be very careful who you let it out to in future?

The whole cleanliness issue relates to what i was saying above about the suitability of somewhere to live. Maybe they should think more carefully about where they decide to 'camp'.

Originally posted by kage110

While we are at it, Huw, are there any other major dislikes/prejudices you would like to divulge? (Apart from nosy Scots, that is...:p )

Several. The only other group i would say i despised in the way i do these travellers are people who try and 'convert' me to their way of thinking. Whether it's politics, religion, sexuality or whatever. I don't mind what they do (providing it's legal and between consenting adults!) and what you think, as long as they don't try and make futile attempts to 'convert' me.

Others are more dislikes than despising .... bad drivers, thoughtless people, those who don't wash on a regular basis. There are more, but those are all i can think of right now.

phew ... just looked at that on the preview function ... it's quite a long one! :)

[kage110]

I can see you points Huw and as I cannot change the way the world is run I will leave off trying to! As to the term to use: Travellers works, and Gypsy or Tinker would probably do too. I am sure you can see the difference between a 'gypsy' and a 'gypo', a 'tinker' and a 'tink' (which is the term used - rather than 'pikey' - in my part of the world). Better still, let's not discuss them any further! :)

Sorry if I come across all 'PC' but if we are going to be careful about the use of language when we refer to black people, Jews, Arabs, the Irish, Americans or even Scots it is best to ensure that use the same care when referring to other people we view as minorities or somehow less worthy than our own people. For all you, or anyone else, know I might be a Scot descended from African-Irish Gypsies who has converted to Islam and I am sure you wouldn't want to offend me, would you? Would you? :D After all I do try and refrain from calling all you English-persyns (being very PC here) 'sassenachs' now, don't I???:p

http://www.royal-stuarts.org/sassenach.htm

Da, Wha's A Sassenach?
My bairn asked me that question the other day, and this is what I told him.

Weel, lad, Ill tell ye. Sassenach are folk that are no Scots. Though ye could say that they're folk that are no Celts - I dinna think ye can call most Irish, Welsh or Cornishmen real Sassenach.

Noo then, lad, I dinna want ye treatin Sassenach like inferior folk, een though thats often true. There are guid, kind, intelligent and een holy people among their different tribes. Why, maist o the saints ye hear tell of are Sassenach. That's why yere no tae be treating folk unkindly just for an accident o birth that they're nae Scots - pity them, aye, but dinnae mock them.

Can ye tell a Sassenach? O course, ye can always tell a Sassenach - but ye canna tell em mickle!

Och, ye mean how do ye ken a Sassenach frae a Scotsman? Weel, there be several ways. Do ye ken walkin in the market last week, and ye mentioned that lassie passing who smelt like flooers? They call that a scent, pair-fume, colon, or such-like. Sassenach o both sexes wear stuff tae mak them smell like something they be-nt, belike a garden, or a kitchen or.... I heerd o one for gents that they call English Leather. Weel, laddie, I mysel dinna want to smell like something trapped betwixt a sweatin horse and an Englishmans backside, but there's nae accoontin for taste.

Why do they wear such folderol?

I dinna truly ken, unless they canna stand their ain aroma. True, Scots bathe regular, another difference wi the Sassenach. Why, our Queen Marys coosin, the English lass, scandalized her subjects by saying in public that she bathed once a month whether she needed to or no!

Speakin o matters o taste, food is another distinction tween Scots and Sassenach. Those outlanders eat outlandish things - snails, frogs and sich - or cover up meat wi spiced sauces so ye canna tell if its coo, mutton, horse, or somewhat else. Yet they dinna ken how we can list wha gaes in tae a haggis and still eat it.

Noo, many tribes o Sassenach tak great pride in their facial hair. Why, I've seen growths on an upper lip that would do a walrus proud. Walrus, laddie, ye remember, at the Calder Park Zoo?

Aye wi the breath like Uncle Alistair after a bad nicht.

These grand mustaches they wax and shape in tae curlicues, horns, or een daggers. Their beards they oil, braid, tie wi ribbands... och, sae fancy! And many of their men do the same things.

Other folk have strange was ospeech - Whah, Ah do declayun, thas so kand o yall! or ye might hear somwhat like Wotcher, guv! Tyke a butchers at me gel there. Aynt she sumpn? So ocoorse, mony Sassenach hae trooble wi the wa guid Scots speak. I ken a lassie nicht sae lang syne wha asked me aboot my accent. She went aroond tae and frae, prating tha she couldna mak oot my woorrds! Och, bairn, ilka Sassenach maun no ken Anglic verra mickle!

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by kage110
...

Sorry if I come across all 'PC' but if we are going to be careful about the use of language when we refer to black people, Jews, Arabs, the Irish, Americans or even Scots it is best to ensure that use the same care when referring to other people we view as minorities or somehow less worthy than our own people. For all you, or anyone else, know I might be a Scot descended from African-Irish Gypsies who has converted to Islam and I am sure you wouldn't want to offend me, would you? Would you? :D

Don't worry Hugh, you didn't come across as particularly PC. In different parts of the world the same word has different connitations. My appology was genuine, as i know that what might seem like a perfectly ordinary word to me has unpleasent connitations for someone else. I don't know this until they make me aware of the fact, and when they do, i appologise and use a term which they don't find offensive.

That's why i try not to use the term 'black' on the internet without the quotation marks. I once had an 'African-American' go off on a rant at me for using it, demanding i used the term 'African-American'. So far he's the only 'black' person to tell me they object the the use of that word, but for all i know it could be common in certain parts of the world.

I never set out to deliberately offend anyone. Even with my humour (see numberous other threads! :D ), my aim is to be funny ... i just seem to have such a warped sense of humour that i offend a fair few people along the way.

EDIT: Woah! That's quite a lengthy edit to your post there Hugh .... and it appears to be written in gibberish! :p ;) .... or should that be Scottish! :D

As a sidethought .... what's a Scotsman doing with a very English spelling of the word Huw/Hugh? :) Why not the nice Celtic (ok, ok, ok .... Welsh! :D ) way mine is spelt? :)

[william northcote]

Well as I have Scottish parents and was born in England does that make me part of the great mongrel nation the UK is?

As for the "gypsies", a phrase I do not use, I prefer to regard them as people than "gypsies". Yeah some are theiving as they get less money than the state allows due to them having no fixed abode. But then, I am on state benifit and the though of going out theiving/robbing the pensioners on their payday has seemed appealing. Living below the breadline is no laughing matter. I experience it every day. The thought of how much rent to pay, council tax, electric, gas, food, clothes ETC ETC ETC I now dye my hair due to the stress of living in a building that may fall, may get evicted for non payment, and if it does get to the point of eviction, I will be the one that Huw will not piss on if I was on fire.:(

For the travellers ETC, think of how they got there, are they real "Pikeys" or have circumstance made them that way? The fact that we suddenly judge on how they live is not in itself, what I would call a human trait. The people that judge on face value to me are more akin to a anal retentive with a passion for self sodomisation. Is ethnic hatred a personal thing or is it inbred from birth? Hmmm.... my first troll question.....:(

[kage110]

'Hugh' is the Scots way of spelling Uisdean (which is the Gaelic way of spelling Hugh).:) I didn't realise your name was Welsh...I just thought your parents couldn't spell! :p :moon:

The 'sassenach' passage was written in Scots, which is a distinct variation of the 'English' language and can be considered one of the native tongues of Scotland (you would have to go a long, long way back for all of us to be speaking a form of Celtic - not that the Celts were the native Scots either). Modern English may well have more roots in Scots than in any other form of 'English'. I don't know how true it is but I had heard that at one point there were more Scottish professors of English at Cambridge and Oxford universities than there were English ones. Even now the English spoken around Inverness is claimed (who by, I don't know) the be the clearest form of spoken English so maybe all you 'English' speakers (yes, even you Americans) should be saying that you speak 'Scottish'.:D

But, what do I know....:confused:

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Will Northcote
...

Is ethnic hatred a personal thing or is it inbred from birth? Hmmm.... my first troll question.....:(


I wouldn't of thought it was a trolling question Will.

Hatred is built into us as a child. It is very closely linked to fear of the different/unknown. The byproduct of this fear is hatred. It can take many generations to break down the boundries put up by fear of the unknown.

If, however, you were trying to hint that i 'suffer' (is that the word to use?) from ethnic hatred (and my sincerest appologies if i'm wrong .... it can be very difficult to judge speech inflections on the internet), i would simply say that i don't. Seeing as there is no one particular race which lives in caravans, steals and makes a mess of areas, i can't see how you could call my hatred 'ethnic'. And to contrast with what i said above about inbred hatred, my personal hatred would be changed by nothing more than for one of these travellers to show the slightest bit of human decency.

Depending on how you meant the question, hopefully one of those two paragraphs above will answer your question .... please ignore the one which doesn't apply to the way you meant the question.

Ta.

As an aside, as a 1/2 Welsh, 1/4 Norweigan, 1/4 Italian i think i'm quite a mongeral as well. However, i was born here in the UK and brought up here. I see myself as Englishman born to Welsh parents.

[Shitoryu Dude]

In the US those known as travelers are commonly regarded as thieves and criminals. They operate scam operations and commonly prey on the elderly for shoddy "home repairs". As a group they need to be taken out, hung, and left for the crows.

:beer:

[kage110]

Will,

I wouldn't consider your question trollish at all. Having been down near the bread line myself (albeit only for a few months), having a sister who was living on sickness benfit (when the Social finally got their act together) and was, on occasion, homeless (primarily due to the Social not getting their act together fast enough) and having family and friends who will never be financially comfortable I have a view of life that is somewhat different than someone of my current social standing (I am comparetively well off) normally has. Being middle-class and all I should be more NIMBYish but I just can't bring myself to descend to that level. Prejudice is a wonderful thing, it makes people think that their world is a little bit more under their control...:(

Oh yeh, I am a mongrel as well: Half Scottish, half New Zealander (but most of the latter were Scots before hand so I am not sure if that counts) not to mention bits of Irish and Viking added in. Probably Welsh too as my name 'Wallace' (Ualis in Gaelic - meaning 'foreigner') indicated that my clan were once Welsh Celts shoved north by the Saxons. Woof, woof!

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by kage110
'Hugh' is the Scots way of spelling Uisdean (which is the Gaelic way of spelling Hugh).:) I didn't realise your name was Welsh...I just thought your parents couldn't spell! :p :moon:

...

hehehe ...

Yeah, both my parents are from the Swansea area, but didn't meet until work took them both to London.

I've spent a fair bit of time down in South Wales, and it's a lovely part of the world.

The only downside to my name is having to spell out both my first name and sirname when people want to take my name down! :)

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
In the US those known as travelers are commonly regarded as thieves and criminals. They operate scam operations and commonly prey on the elderly for shoddy "home repairs". As a group they need to be taken out, hung, and left for the crows.

:beer:

hehehe ....

My views on this must be pretty extreme ....

Harvey's got the same views as me! :D :laugh:

:beer:

[kage110]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by kage110
'Hugh' is the Scots way of spelling Uisdean (which is the Gaelic way of spelling Hugh). I didn't realise your name was Welsh...I just thought your parents couldn't spell!

...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



hehehe ...

Yeah, both my parents are from the Swansea area, but didn't meet until work took them both to London.

I've spent a fair bit of time down in South Wales, and it's a lovely part of the world.

The only downside to my name is having to spell out both my first name and sirname when people want to take my name down!

Try telling someone you are called Usidean (pronounced 'Oosh-jun') without having to spell it! Probably why my parents called my 'Hugh'. (I have enought trouble getting people to spell 'Wallace' correctly: 'ace' not 'is'!!!) My current job (recruitment officer) involves getting job applications from all over the world and I (and especially my colleagues) have had much laughter at the various spellings of my name that come thorugh by mail or fax. And don't even try to guess how the Portuguese, Poles or Indians pronounce my name on the telephone!!!:D

[kage110]

hehehe ....

My views on this must be pretty extreme ....

Harvey's got the same views as me!

Step back from the edge, Huw! There is still a chance to save yourself!:D

No offense Harvey!:nw:

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by kage110


Step back from the edge, Huw! There is still a chance to save yourself!:D

No offense Harvey!:nw:

:D

Everyone's got an extreme view on something ... it's what makes us all different. I think i'm allowed to share one viewpoint with Harvey without being called an extremist! :) Now .... if i were to share two views with Harvey ...... ;)


No offense Harvey!:nw: :toast:

[Shitoryu Dude]

Extreme view? More like common sense and not giving a damn what people think about it. :cool: The opinions of those who want to be inoffensive to anybody are of no concern or merit.

:beer:

[kage110]

Everyone's got an extreme view on something ... it's what makes us all different. I think i'm allowed to share one viewpoint with Harvey without being called an extremist! Now .... if i were to share two views with Harvey ......

It is a slippery slope...:D

Personally I hold very extreme views about not holding extreme views about anything.:eek: :D

[Iain]

I've had problems with gypsies before myself, and I have to say they were the most reprehensible people I have ever had the misfortune of meeting. They threatened my mother (much to their dismay), crapped in the alley by the store she worked in, crapped in the store, stunk to high heaven, fought with the locals, and had the most disgusting personal hygene imaginable. The real nut-buster was they weren't even 'real' ethnic Gypsies, they were just travelling bums who'd shack up in someones field and harass the nearest town. It's probably the same deal with the people in the article. Just another reeking, drunken hobo caravan that they were glad to be rid of. I seriously doubt there was anything to be racist about.

[Vapour]

Large number of Jews were, at least, escorted to the death camp. Most gypsies were shot on the spot and never made it to the camp. The attitude expressed by Huw explains a lot about the reason for such differential treatment.

If someone act !!!!, I treat him/her !!!! because the *person* is !!!!. I don't make it a racial/ethinic issue out of it. I have no problem kicking out campers who makes mess out of my neighbourhood. But it is because they make mess not because they are gypsies.

[Vapour]

My best mate in undergraduate year was from Singapore. He, a Chinese Singaporian, grew up in a poor area of Singapore and had plenty of things to say about Tamil which form the underclass of Singapore and Malaysia. He pretty much dispised Indian (i.e. Tamil) "You know, all of them beat their wife" or stuff like that, all coming from his personal exprerience, pretty much the same as Huw.

The attitude like Huw or my friend is o.k. when you are young and immature. Not if you are grown up. You ought to learn to treat everyone fair.