Who is he kidding?

[ScottUK]

Please tell me someone else is following this farce of a defence!

Quick overview for all you non-Ukers who haven't heard of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3252382.stm

Ian Huntley:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39532000/jpg/_39532455_huntley_pa203.jpg

He is a caretaker at the local school...
He is visited by two young girls...
One has a nosebleed...
He takes them upstairs to sort the nosebleed out...
He turns and accidentally knocks one into the bath (that has 18ins of water in it to conveniently wash his dog)...
The other starts screaming...
He 'places' his hand over her mouth to quieten her...
She dies of suffocation...
He turns to find the other has drowned...
He chucks the bodies in the boot of his car...
He adds a can of petrol, a shovel and even plastic bags for his boots...
He drives out to a secluded area...
He cuts off the clothes (ALL of them)...
He badly burns the bodies...
He burns the clothes at his school...
He says "he hasn't seen them" the kids' families & police...
The clothes are found...
He is arrested...
The girls are found...
He is on trial for two murders.

All the above is factual. He has admitted all of the above to the court. He said their deaths were accidental.

Experiment 1: Now, martial arts guys and girls. Place your hand gently over your 10-yr-old daughter's mouth. Do they die instantly without a struggle?

Experiment 2: Take a healthy 10-yr-old and knock her in a foot and a half of water. Did she drown?

They died after a series of accidents.

What a load of bollocks. Is anyone here idiot-qualified enough to actually believe this Murderer's story?

[Steve Williams]

I think we should put him in a room with the girls parents....... or even just their mothers......

Then we will see true justice.

[ScottUK]

What really bothers me over these accidents:

He removed their clothing to hide his own DNA... but why cut their underwear off? Is this a sex-related crime?

Agreed, leave the bastard to the mothers...

[Jock Armstrong]

Shoot him. Now. Its waste disposal.

[n2shotokai]

If the first girl was pushed or fell in the tub and knocked themself out, then they could drown in a few inches of water. Although that is very possible, the rest is obviously nonsense. I cannot see how anyone who does something like this is not insane. How could a sane person kill children?

[Iain]

Maybe if he's mentally handicapped... otherwise it's off to the slammer.

[PwarYuex]

Is it just me who thinks that people who work in schools need a more thorough investigation before they are allowed to work there? I remember an incident in Tasmania where a class teacher raped a couple of boys and a girl, he then pleaded that he was insane.

Couldn't this argument be negated if they have had a psych evaluation before they are allowed to work? If they are psychologically proven stable before they are hired, they can't go for the "I'm bonkers" case, right?

Also, the evaluaters might find unsuitable candidates, as well...

my two yen

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by n2shotokai
If the first girl was pushed or fell in the tub and knocked themself out, then they could drown in a few inches of water. Although that is very possible, the rest is obviously nonsense. I cannot see how anyone who does something like this is not insane. How could a sane person kill children?

I agree with Steve that it's perfectly possible that someone could fall into a bath, knock themeselves out and drown in only an inch or so of water.

The rest is the biggest bunch of made up shite i've ever heard.

Mr Huntley should never see the light of day again.

[Finny]

Yeah, it's ridiculous I know.

I read it in the paper a coupla days ago, and actually burst out laughing... till I remembered what it was really all about. Sheer evil.

Yeah, so someone who knocks themselves unconcious CAN drown in a coupla inches of water, but someone who is bumped INTO the bath can drown before you can pull them out?? pfft Then, having knocked her into the tub, do you pull her out? No, you pay more attention to silencing her screaming friend- smothering her at the same time.... ahhh yeah, thats gonna engender reasonable doubt.

Sometimes you gotta wish capital punishment was more readily available...

[william northcote]

You forget that he showed the 2 dead girls to Maxine Carr when she arrived back from Grimsby. It was then he took them away to near the airfield and burned the bodies. Plus his previous conviction of rape in 1998. How he got a job as a caretaker in a school with that past record is beyond me.

But he is not the only one in the dock. Carr is there for assisting.

If he is found guilty he will have a life of solitary confinement. Who in their right mind would allow these 2 into the general prison areas where some of the inmates have children of their own?

He will not last long in prison.

[PwarYuex]

Originally posted by Will Northcote
He will not last long in prison.

I (sadly) hope you're right.

[william northcote]

It will be a toss up between the prisoners and/or a guard in prison that will make him wish that he has done wrong.

For all that has been said so far, it is against him being let off.

He is claiming remorse over his first actions yet he went off and burned, buried and forgot about the bodies. If he had showed remorse at the start when he did it, he would have been arrested at his home when the police came to find out. But he buried the bodies, told lies over the actual incident and was found out.

So whatever the outcome, it will not be a good future for the pair.

BTW PwarYuex, why be sad over them?

[Sunndew]

This guy should be the poster child for capatial punishment!

[Dex]

I think Huntley was not found guilty of rape, otherwise he would never have gotten a job in a school. Whether he was or not, the way it was leaked to the media and the public (through Carr's concurrent trial,) could in fact have led to a mistrial. Previous convictions can only be told to the jury if the defendant accuses a police officer of lying.

My opinion is that he should be found insane. Carstairs is the place for the likes of him. Prisoners in a jail can stab and slash..but real cruelty can only be handed out in an asylum for the criminally insane.

[larsen_huw]

Originally posted by Dex
...

My opinion is that he should be found insane. Carstairs is the place for the likes of him. Prisoners in a jail can stab and slash..but real cruelty can only be handed out in an asylum for the criminally insane.

Plus the fact that if you're found insane the government can hold you indefinately, so life could well mean life, rather than 20/25 years. On the flip side, if he were beleived to be 'cured' they could let him out whenever they felt like it.

[glad2bhere]

I might have though about the psychology or "insanity defense" regarding this crime except that in order to plead such a cause in the US one must prove that they were not able to understand the consequences of their actions at the time they committed them. The fact that the individual found it necessary to cover the mouth of one child to muffle her screams tells me that the individual was aware at some level that his behavior was unacceptable and that discovery would invoke a consequence he was unwilling to accept. Nonetheless he proceeded with his actions even with this realization. Furthermore he used an organized and systematic methodology in an attempt to avoid consequences of his actions. I don't think that pleading "diminished capacity" would hold up either.

I tend to advocate for rehab with most crimes, however the frequency of repeat offense in the matter of sexually oriented violations is so high and the frequency of actual "rehab" so very low that I support removing this individual permanently from the gene pool. As an aside and as barbaric as some might consider it, I, personally, would leave the method for removal of this person from the Human community to the parents of the murdered children.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Bujinken]

I couldn’t agree more with Bruce; sexual predators need to be put down for the sake of public safety. We do not try and reform rogue bears or mountain lions when they choose to feed on us, and in my mind a predator is a predator, whether they walk on 4 legs or 2.

I know one can argue that; ‘bears & big cats do not have the ability to reason like a human’ Well neither do the human sexual predators. They know what they are doing is wrong but they do not have the ability to control themselves, just like rogue animals. We don’t relocate rogues; we take a gun and shoot them to protect the public.

As far as karmic retribution being meted by the general prison population is a fallacy. A member of my family was raped by her stepfather. He was tried and convicted and sent to a long prison stretch. He is currently placed in a high-risk ward in a state prison because of the threat to pedophiles lives in the general population. Thankfully when he does get out he will be in his 70’s and will have lost the ‘meat’ of his life in a cell.

Personally, I would like to have seen this whole thing handled with a shovel and a hole, but you can’t always get what you want.

[Finny]

While I'm not entirely against capital punishment, particularly in appalling cases like this- any act of severe violence against a child is the absolute worst, IMO. I've gotta say I saw a documentary a few years age regarding castration of sexual offenders, and it's level of succes as a rehabilitation technique.

There are, IIRC, several methods used (physical, chemical etc), I think most were being used in European countries, some may have been US, cant remember. The point is, if you aint got no balls, you cant get an erection/have an orgasm or physically feel any sense of arousal at all, so have no motivation to commit sexual acts whatsoever, let alone deviant ones.

Seems like an appropriate method of control... no second chances- commit one act of deviant sexual crime, get em lopped off (painfully with no anasthetic, preferably), and do without a sex life for the rest of your days.

Any doctors in the house?

[william northcote]

Well it seems he is off to Rampton prison.

but he has said that he is being stiched up by the police and told Carr to lie to save himself from being found out.

It does seem that for him to plead insanity will not go down too well. The acid bath murderer wsa deemed sane and therefore tried as a sane person. Same with Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, both knew what they were doing so pleading insanity did not go too well.

Removing Huntley and Carr from the general population is for the short term a good thing for them to be in prison, they may have to be kept there for their own protection. The feeling of anger towards these people are high, so if they are released they will have to leave the country for their own protection.

[william northcote]

Originally posted by Finny
While I'm not entirely against capital punishment, particularly in appalling cases like this- any act of severe violence against a child is the absolute worst, IMO. I've gotta say I saw a documentary a few years age regarding castration of sexual offenders, and it's level of succes as a rehabilitation technique.

There are, IIRC, several methods used (physical, chemical etc), I think most were being used in European countries, some may have been US, cant remember. The point is, if you aint got no balls, you cant get an erection/have an orgasm or physically feel any sense of arousal at all, so have no motivation to commit sexual acts whatsoever, let alone deviant ones.

Seems like an appropriate method of control... no second chances- commit one act of deviant sexual crime, get em lopped off (painfully with no anasthetic, preferably), and do without a sex life for the rest of your days.

Any doctors in the house?

It is done in muslim countries. A first offence is having your sphericals smashed, second offence it is taken off, third time and you are hung from a crane hoisted 40 foot into the air and played on national TV.

Even though the idea is sound, you would need to have proof. Craig Charles in 1994 was charged with rape, found not guilty. So would he have been castrated?

[Finny]

the feeling of anger towards these people is high,
justifiably so, IMO. He's admitted being "responsible" for the deaths of these little girls, just says 'it was an accident', with the above explanations. Which are obviously absurd. Hang im.

And re. the whole "prisoners can stab and slash... but real cruelty can only be handed out in an asylum for the criminally insane" thing.. is this really true? I thought asylums were supposed to be cushy in comparison? Isn't that why so many try to get off on insanity pleas?, as well as the possibility for release, of course. Anybody comment on whether 'rough justice' would be dispensed in an asylum?

[Finny]

The documentary I saw, when they were physically castrated, it was done on an operating table in a hospital, like any other surgery, under anasthetic, all quite civilised. The chemical castration method requires the offender to report in periodically for a hormone shot to render his nads ineffective.

No mention was made of muslim countries methods, so I wouldn't know, but they were quite thoroughly discussing the effects and results, of a number of case studies. It was all quite interesting, if mentally painful (what guy doesn't grab his nuts and wince at the mention of this subject, right?).

And, obviously you need proof, cos it is after the conviction n all.

[glad2bhere]

".....The point is, if you aint got no balls, you cant get an erection/have an orgasm or physically feel any sense of arousal at all, so have no motivation to commit sexual acts whatsoever, let alone deviant ones....."

Unfortunately this is widespread but very erroneous misconception.

Sexual violation of another person whether man or woman or child is not actually a sexual issue. It is an act of violence in which the focus of the injury and perhaps even the weapon of choice is the genitals. The key word, then, is NOT "sex" or "sexual" but violence. A person who is a sexual predator does not have to have an erection. The item of choice need not even be phallic. Crushing a persons' genitals--- male or female-- is also a sexual violation. Assaulting someone solely on the basis of their sex or even sexual orientation is likewise a sexual violation. The key here is not that the attack is sexual but rather that is is extraordinary violence directed at the sexuality of the victim. What makes this crime so heinous is that in this case the victims are children whose sexual potential had not even been realized and who were incapable of defending the integrity of their sexuality. This is made worse by the fact that the attacker despite appreciating at some level the monstrosity of his acts was incapable of restraining himself. Personally I believe that the simile' comparing this person to a rogue animal is very apt and that the concept of disposing of rogue animals for the safety of the community is appropriate.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[PwarYuex]

I think there should be a section of jails that only have sexual predators. One big room.

[Dex]

On a side note, the prison where he is being held recently had a large courthouse built beside it with an underground tunnel for transportation of prisoners.

But the highly paid lawyers etc want the case to be held in the Old Bailey so they can all look good on TV. So the taxpayer is paying around £50,000 a week for prisoner transport costs.

btw when I suggested Carstairs (for the criminally insane), I can assure you all that it is not a 'rehab clinic' as such. ;)

More like Huntingdon Life Science for Humans.

[william northcote]

Carstairs... try Barlinnie :D

Even the class A prisoners have standards in there. But what prison could not let someone at Huntley while turning a blind eye for a moment?

[glad2bhere]

You folks from across the pond may not be familiar one very high profile case here in The Colonies that had an interesting ending not very long ago.

A young man from the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area (about an hours' drive north of me in the Chicago area) was sentenced to life in prison without possibility of parole for murdering, mutilating, cutting up and disposing of a number of gay young men and boys. I believe there may have even been some cannibalism involved as well. Not a few of the relatives of the victims were "dismayed" with the punishment. The reason that I mention this is that a few years later the this person was accosted by another innate while he was cleaning a washroom and beaten to death with a piece of broomhandle. Want to hear something curious?

a.) Nobody knows how this attacker managed to get OUT of his separate facility in the prison for the particularly violent inmates.

b.) Nobody knows how he was able to get INTO the segregated area where the convicted murderer was secluded for his own protection.

c.) Nobody knows how the attacker knew where to find his victim, how he was able to carry the piece of broomhandle with him, and why there were no guards or inmates around or within hearing as the young man was beaten to death over a period of about 30 minutes.

What is MY take on this? I fall back on an old saying I came across some time back.

"God does not check his books everyday, but He DOES check them."

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[william northcote]

You on about Dahmer, the man that was on first name terms with his meal?

[glad2bhere]

Ahhhh, you've heard of him then. Yes, the very same. And were I to hazard a guess I would say that John Wayne Gacy might have gotten the same treatment (or worse) had they not put to the bastard out of his pain in a more legal fashion so quickly.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[william northcote]

Well Dahmer wanted the death sentance, but as the state did not have the death penalty, he was given life.

but as Huntley is now denying killing and Carr is now trying to distance herself from him, this trial is getting more humourous by the day.

[ScottUK]

Why do I think that Carr is gonna get away with it? :(

[Dex]

Unless Huntley involves Carr in his testimony, she will get a relatively light sentence. (Relatively.)

She will still most likely get stabbed or suffer some such nightmare while inside unless she can convince everyone he was a monster to her as well.

Huntley himself knows that he is on a death sentence, having already tried to kill himself. This is purely down to the current media manipulation of such cases, and a little bit of politics as well, I have no doubt. (remember, he is being transported daily to a TV friendly court)

This case is absolutely heartbreaking but the daily hype on radio, in print and on TV is just sickening.

My heart goes out to the parents and community (I have 2 daughters and a son) but another part of me thinks that the money being spent on this (as opposed to a 'normal' trial) could be spent on children who could really use it instead of all this rage and hysteria.

[Finny]

Bruce,
Of course you're right that most sexual crimes are not specifically ABOUT the sex, but more to do with violence. The point I was making was, as this documentary put it, the recidivism rate of castrated sexual offenders was EXTREMELY low... like, none of them ever raped anyone again (obviously).

On another tangent, and sad as it may be, I do love hearing stories of sick fockers gettin theirs in jail... like the story about the paedophile who got sent to jail, assaulted by a bunch of cons who had just asked a screw for the coffee pot, then poured the boiling coffee down his @ss... messy. You can read the full story on Stickgrappler's mma page in the prison section. The story ends... "make sure, if you're a paedophile, you don't get sent to the same jail where the father of the two kids you molested is serving life for robbing banks." hehehe

[Shinsen]

Originally posted by Will Northcote
You forget that he showed the 2 dead girls to Maxine Carr when she arrived back from Grimsby. It was then he took them away to near the airfield and burned the bodies.

You say this as though it were a fact - I've heard a lot of reports about this case and haven't seen this "fact" reported anywhere, so where does this come from.

Originally posted by Will Northcote
Plus his previous conviction of rape in 1998. How he got a job as a caretaker in a school with that past record is beyond me.

He didn't have a past record - he was apparently accused of rape some years ago but the case didn't hold up, hence no record. Indeed, the previous accusation has absolutely no bearing on his guilt or otherwise in this case and is only mentioned as part of Carr's defence case.

Originally posted by ScottUK
Why do I think that Carr is gonna get away with it?
If a not guilty verdict is given for her then it will be because a jury of her peers who have heard ALL the evidence, not just the TV, radio and tabloid reports have decided that her guilt cannot be established beyond reasonable doubt. At the moment, this is the legal process we have in the UK (although the Government are seeking to change this) and guilt is only established after hearing all the evidence in a trial. Neither I nor you have heard all the evidence in this case, so we don't really know if Maxine Carr is guilty or not however, you seem to be able to say that she is guilty without having to worry about trivial things like evidence. If she is found not guilty in this case (and it's a big "if") it may just be because she isn't guilty, but as we haven't had a complete trial yet, we will have to wait to find out.

[Dex]

Remember the Leeds Footballers' trial where the judged ruled mis-trial because of the reporting?

The use of concurrent trials (Carr and Huntley at the same time in different trials) to allow details (and of course character assassination) about Huntley to be broadcast is a disgrace to our justice system.

This is not a comment on the heinous crime he is standing trial for.

[UKPatrick]

Hi all,

M.Johnsons point is very (and frighteningly) valid.

DURING his trial, the public , and we assume the jury, are being made aware of his previous record regarding child sex offences, even if the charges were eventually dropped.

I can see a valid request from his lawyers to have his situation reviewed, as he can not be seen to be getting a 'fair' trial. It is normal for the accuseds (if found guilty) criminal history to be made public after the verdict.

I might be a little cynical here, but could this be Ms.Carrs last present to her man?

Patrick