View Full Version : Man with sword screams "I'm Immortal" - shot by police
Shitoryu Dude
12-08-2003, 12:39 PM
Original article (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/143868p-127319c.html)
Man described as a "martial arts expert" and a black belt, murdered his wife before being shot down.
Ye Olde corpse
12-08-2003, 01:18 PM
Really sad when stuff like this happen....i often seem to think that all martial artists know better, that they are calm and harmonic people, this is a bloody reminder that it is not so....
The Policeman fired 14 shots...2 of which shot his police partner in the chest and leg.
Which one of these people should not be on the streets?
Shitoryu Dude
12-08-2003, 01:38 PM
Yeah, I have to say that the marksmanship showed by the officers was decidedly "sucks the big one". I would have payed cash to have been a fly on the wall and be able to critique this event on a play-by-play for future training. I have the distinct feeling the two cops blew it big time on a number of levels.
:beer:
The article wasn't real big on details, but did state that the officer who fired the shots was a 46-year-old female, with 17 years of experience on the force. I have a hunch there could have been extenuating circumstances with the confrontation.
Another thing that always bothers me with the press is describing so many wackos as "martial arts experts" without any support or justification. I remember a year or so ago, a local story in Chicago about some jerk who was arrested for battery and assault on his wife, who was eight or nine months pregnant. I believe he was also charged with the murder of their unborn child after doing front snap kicks to her abdomen. They called him a "martial arts expert" too. He probably only took a few TKD classes at the local gym.
I don't know, maybe it's just me getting cranky in my middle age.
14 shots. With a gun. Aiming at one guy.
14 shots. 2 of which hit your long-time law enforcement partner in the chest and leg.
I don't know...something seriously wrong here.
But Forbes lunged at the cops, and one of the officers squeezed off 14 shots - hitting her partner twice and wounding Forbes multiple times, police said.
14 shots while a guy runs at you with a sword? Nah. I don't think so.
Mekugi
12-08-2003, 02:27 PM
WOaaaaaaa.....very tragic. It makes me a little sick seeing this, actually. How could you love someone and then cut them up? For that matter, even someone you were on bad terms with?!
eeshh.
-R
Sunndew
12-08-2003, 02:32 PM
Lets see...A naked, samurai sword-wielding martial arts expert screaming, "I'm God! I'm immortal" running at me with a sword and I have a gun. I think I would have been aiming a little, no, make that a LOT higher than the legs.
Something is not right about this one espically with what I have read. From what I understand both cops were at the door when he lunged at them. She pulled the trigger and fired 14 time at the guy. If they were both at the door then how the hell did she shoot her partner in the chest and leg? He would have had to be facing her to be shot in the chest or would have had to be behind the naked dude. It just doesnt add up.
Kneppy18
12-08-2003, 03:03 PM
I obviously don't know what happend, but here is a possibility of how the partner got shot:
They said that the shooting officer recived trauma too and and to go to the hospital. Also, remember they knocked on the door and he answered. That means there there was only a small distance between the officers and the man. Maybe after he screamed and they warned him, he charged as she was pulling her gun. The officer was unable to pull it out all the way before he was very close so she let off a few shots. Her partner went behind the suspect accidentally trying to get him away from the officer. She fired a few more times through the suspect's leg because he was on top of her and the exit wounds mentioned in the article hit her partner, not her actually shooting at her partner, but THROUGH the suspect.
I dunno, it's a possibility
-Aaron Knepp
The whole speech account given by the cops 'I am God, I am Immortal!' was meant to show the guy was on drugs.
But he was not.
A neighbour saw him cutting up his wife and phones the police.....FIFTEEN MINUTES LATER THEY ARRIVE? An armed assualt with possible murder...and 2 officers respond 15 minutes later? Shooting each other?
Is it just me, or is this as unbelievable as Santa Claus?
Juan Perez
12-08-2003, 04:32 PM
The marksmanship issue can be addressed a number of ways; all of which I don't think NYC can afford, or is willing to pay for.
The other problem has to do with being trained to shoot at paper targets while focusing on aligning your front and rear sights. Since the target doesn't move or try to hurt the shooter, it is easy to re-enforce the "unnatural" tendency to concentrate on the sights.
But, when you are faced with a lunatic armed with 27 inches of cutting stainless steel, you naturally revert to wanting to shoot while focusing on what your target is doing versus the alignment of your sights. The results are quite predictable. This is why reflexive shooting pays such high dividends. Other than NYPD ESU, marksmanship is not paid the proper attention in NYC ... and physical fitness ... but that's another thread.
Soulend
12-08-2003, 05:19 PM
I once saw some statistics that nationwide, about 70% of shots fired by police in the line of duty miss their target completely. I cannot find a reference to the nationwide study now, although if Minnesota's (http://www.dps.state.mn.us/bca/CJIS/Documents/Crime2002/02FIREARMS.pdf) miss rate (77% in 2002) is any indication, then it seems logical.
Not enough interest, training dollars, or time at the range, I expect, as is the case with many departments. Perhaps this is the real reason even rural deputies carry high capacity 9's and .40's, as opposed to the trusty major or magnum-caliber wheelgun that worked just dandy for their fathers and grandfathers.
It is a shame that every nutcase with even a modicum of previous training is labelled a 'martial arts expert'- and a shame the story didn't show the sword. I would lay odds that it is a stainless wallhanger and that his "expertise" came from repeated viewings of 'Highlander' punctuated by the imbibing of Pabst Blue Ribbon with great apomb. I suppose that it sells papers and gets views, while casting a pall on legitimate MA...
"My brother was a wonderful person; he just had some emotional problems that we're still trying to sort out," Nicole Forbes said.
It would appear that even despite dismal marksmanship, his emotional problems have been now resolved.
Chrono
12-08-2003, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by BC
Another thing that always bothers me with the press is describing so many wackos as "martial arts experts" without any support or justification. I remember a year or so ago, a local story in Chicago about some jerk who was arrested for battery and assault on his wife, who was eight or nine months pregnant. I believe he was also charged with the murder of their unborn child after doing front snap kicks to her abdomen. They called him a "martial arts expert" too. He probably only took a few TKD classes at the local gym.
I agree with you here. They probably just think that since he used kicks that he was automatically a "martial arts expert".
Jon
Earl Hartman
12-08-2003, 08:40 PM
Understatement Of The Century (from the article):
"My brother was a wonderful person; he just had some emotional problems that we're still trying to sort out"
Yeah, I would say so.
rupert
12-08-2003, 10:36 PM
So - shot at point blank 14 times and he is in stable condition. Good shooting.
"He was charged with second-degree murder and criminal possession of a weapon."
If chopping your wife up and then having a go at the police with a sword is second-degree murder, just what exactly, is first-degree murder?
Rupert Atkinson
Chrono
12-08-2003, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by rupert
So - shot at point blank 14 times and he is in stable condition. Good shooting.
It must be true. He is immortal.
Jon
Originally posted by rupert
If chopping your wife up and then having a go at the police with a sword is second-degree murder, just what exactly, is first-degree murder?
Rupert Atkinson
Chopping up a good-looking wife?
Daniel san
12-09-2003, 10:44 AM
It must be true. He is immortal.
Jon
Hello,
I notice that the "expert" bent one sword on this woman's head. Ergo not a good sword. I also notice that the guy claiming to be immortal is still alive. We will need further testing to prove his theory.
It says that ONE of the officers fired all 14 shots. Did she reload? I'm fairly ignorant about guns and the laws about shot capacity (I know the guns I own but that's it).
Brian Owens
12-09-2003, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Daniel san
It says that ONE of the officers fired all 14 shots. Did she reload? I'm fairly ignorant about guns and the laws about shot capacity (I know the guns I own but that's it).
Many police departments issue large capacity automatics. 14 - 16 rounds in the magazine, plus maybe one up the pipe, isn't unheard of.
I wasn't there, from from the article it sounds like the officer was trying at first to shoot the perp in the legs but he kept on comming.
If it had been me facing a sword wielding maniac covered in blood I would not have emptied my magazine in the guys legs; a double tap or two in the center of mass would have been my tactic.
Brian Owens
12-09-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Dex
The whole speech account given by the cops 'I am God, I am Immortal!' was meant to show the guy was on drugs.
But he was not.
A neighbour saw him cutting up his wife and phones the police.....FIFTEEN MINUTES LATER THEY ARRIVE? An armed assualt with possible murder...and 2 officers respond 15 minutes later? Shooting each other?
Is it just me, or is this as unbelievable as Santa Claus?
Were you there?
The "am God, I am Immortal" quote was made by a neighbor, as clearly stated in the article.
How do you know if the suspect was or was not on drugs? Do you have another source of information on this story?
Where do you come up with your "FIFTEEN MINUTES LATER THEY ARRIVE?" figure? The article says the incident was first seen by a neighbor at "about" 5AM, it does not say what time the 9-1-1 center received the call, exactly what was reported, nor what time the officers were dispatched. The article then says that the first two officers arrived at “about” 5:15AM.
Your inflammatory remarks sound to me like the typical ravings of a cop hater.
--Brian Owens
Shitoryu Dude
12-09-2003, 12:50 PM
Well, there are a variety of reasons to be less than trusting of police considering the actions and behaviors exhibited by less than outstanding members of the country's police forces.
Anyway, I was wondering about the reports of the blade bending. To me that indicates that our "martial arts expert" was 1) clueless as to how to actually use the sword, and 2) was attempting to use a cheap stainless steel replica in place of an actual live blade. Neither one of these things makes me want to classify this person as a "martial arts expert".
Once again we wander into the field of non-MA types thinking that something so mundane as a black belt makes one an "expert". While it should certainly carry the connotation that we know more about MA than the average person on the street, I don't think any of us in the MA community would consider anything less than yondan to be an "expert".
:beer:
Juan Perez
12-09-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
Your inflammatory remarks sound to me like the typical ravings of a cop hater.
--Brian Owens
Guys, don't take eachothers comment's personal. We're just discussing here. Opinions ... that's all. If I got a dollar for every "opinion" on here that I didn't agree with ... :) I'd buy an ACOG sight.
bruceb
12-09-2003, 01:37 PM
Wanted: Bayonette dummys .... Immortals only need apply.
That about says all I want to say on that subject.
Originally posted by Yagyu Kenshi
...
Your inflammatory remarks sound to me like the typical ravings of a cop hater.
--Brian Owens
Just shows how wrong you are then. :)
If they were called at 'about 5 am' and they arrive at '5:15'..shoot me for suggesting 15 minutes...please.
Soulend
12-09-2003, 06:28 PM
Don't bother. He's probably immortal too.
Shitoryu Dude
12-09-2003, 07:20 PM
Amazing the amount of restraint we have - nobody has commented on the obvious Highlander angle of this story. I mean we have all the ingredients here: a whack job decapitating people with a katana who believes that he is immortal. Hell, he was most likely just waiting for the light show/orgasm to kick in (though if he was crazy enough that would have happened - only the light show would be in his head) when the cops showed up to ruin his delusional fantasy.
:beer:
Soulend
12-09-2003, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Soulend
I would lay odds that it is a stainless wallhanger and that his "expertise" came from repeated viewings of 'Highlander' punctuated by the imbibing of Pabst Blue Ribbon with great apomb.
Jock Armstrong
12-09-2003, 07:37 PM
So she emptied her mag at the bad guy- not difficult to do with a semi auto [1 1/2 seconds or thereabouts] but execrable marksmanship.
Shooting at the legs is something no professional group does. It's always "centre of the seen mass" which is bad news for the perp since thats where all the vital organs are.Well....stiff. What I did notice was that the number of rounds fired was mentioned but not the number of hits on the perp. She might only have hit him once or twice!!
The other cop might have been hit by ricochets [in an enclosed space they can be a real problem]. It would suggest that remedial range training is in order. {She might be a "17 year veteran but might well have spent that time behind a desk}
Shooting at legs is not an option- it is endangering yourself, your partner and the public at large.The chance of hitting a moving target like that is negligible.
Expending so many rounds would seem to be indicitive of panic. Two or even five or six into a single perp I can readily understand. BTW don't think I'm bagging the cop in question, it's just that no department I know of teaches people to empty their mag in a single blast.
Most of this comes back to competent range training.Many departments simply do not recieve the funding allocation to permit the firearms training required so that police lack the confidence in themselves, from a weapons point of view. Many police do not practice in their own time. It has become a social no no.
I'm glad the cops are all right but like others on this forum I'm baffled by "second degree murder". Perhaps by virtue of being a loon?
Soulend
12-09-2003, 08:52 PM
Perhaps they reckon there was no malice aforethought, it being done in a fit of rage and without premeditation.
PwarYuex
12-09-2003, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Jock Armstrong
Shooting at the legs is something no professional group does.
That's what I thought. She obviously didn't want to turn into one of those "bad" cops the media crucifies just because they killed somebody.
I remember a case here when a police officer killed a guy coming at him with a knife. The media headlines were awful, they blaimed the policeman for exercising "poor judgement". According to the media, any police officer who shoots somebody more than once should not be a cop. (Although the policeman shot the man only twice)
Brian Owens
12-09-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Once again we wander into the field of non-MA types thinking that something so mundane as a black belt makes one an "expert". While it should certainly carry the connotation that we know more about MA than the average person on the street, I don't think any of us in the MA community would consider anything less than yondan to be an "expert".
Yep. Especially considering the number of these wackos who got their "black belts" at a fly-by-night dojo/dojang/kwoon or who "earned" them by watching some other wackos video tapes.
The problem is that the media don't know/care about the difference, and it reflects badly on us all.
Fortunately we have movies like The Last Samurai that show Budoka to be honorable and even compassionate people, and if we serious Budoka strive to set good examples, in daily life as well as at public demos, etc., we can somewhat offset the bad press.
Brian Owens
12-09-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Well, there are a variety of reasons to be less than trusting of police considering the actions and behaviors exhibited by less than outstanding members of the country's police forces.
Yes, but we should wait for the facts before jumping to conclusions or making statements like "The whole speech account given by the cops 'I am God, I am Immortal!' was meant to show the guy was on drugs. But he was not."
Mekugi
12-11-2003, 04:05 AM
Sells more papers? Incites emotions?
Just a guess...
Ohh yeah, on the police thing, the details are lacking totally. I would be curious as to what happens next, however, and hearing a report.
-R
Originally posted by Shitoryu Dude
Well, there are a variety of reasons to be less than trusting of police considering the actions and behaviors exhibited by less than outstanding members of the country's police forces.
Anyway, I was wondering about the reports of the blade bending. To me that indicates that our "martial arts expert" was 1) clueless as to how to actually use the sword, and 2) was attempting to use a cheap stainless steel replica in place of an actual live blade. Neither one of these things makes me want to classify this person as a "martial arts expert".
Once again we wander into the field of non-MA types thinking that something so mundane as a black belt makes one an "expert". While it should certainly carry the connotation that we know more about MA than the average person on the street, I don't think any of us in the MA community would consider anything less than yondan to be an "expert".
:beer:
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.