View Full Version : Knee injuries
Jeffery Brian Hodges
10-11-2000, 01:15 PM
I was hoping someone could give some advice about what to do for a knee injury. About 3-4 years ago, I had a student accidentally fall on the outside of my right knee pushing it inward all the way to the ground while performing osoto gake(right side), well it was swollen for a while, and I hobbled on crutches for about a week or two, I had some X-rays done and it only showed stretching of the ligaments and not a tear, since that time the knee slowly recovered to about 95 percent, if I shifted the wrong way I would occasionally feel it but other than that it was ALMOST fine. Recently about a month ago I was doing jumping techniques and landed on the inner portion of the right foot, which slightly simulated the same action of the first injury, alot of swelling and pain setting in seiza. I went to the Er first who sent me to a specialist, the doctor is now saying he thinks it is anterior cruciate ligament(acl) and another tear(I forget the name of the other one) X-rays revealed no tear, but a mri would have to show that the doctir said, he's convinced its tore, Ime not sure though :), however, he gave me the scoop on the surgery, but my question is, is this the best way to proceed? has anyone else had this surgery and came back 100 percent(hey even 90 percent is ok:) Thanks in advance.
10-11-2000, 11:17 PM
If its your ACL, your F`d! If you go threw with the surgery, you can`t do nothing for 6 months, nothing! Then after your healed, every step you take you risk tearing it again and have to be extremely careful. Sounds like no more randori for you :cry:
Anyway, train safe and best of luck with it!
10-12-2000, 03:44 PM
I had a similar problem (have a similar problem). Also see the other knee sections in this forum.
Just to make you feel worse, it originally happened about 10 years ago and is not completely healed.
I thought it had got better but about 4 years ago I was doing a stupid warm up exercise (leapfrog) and landed badly agrivating it, it recovered again (I thought).
Six months after that I was sitting on a low stool, went to get up and felt a slight "pop" in my knee, at that point my knee "locked" and the pain was extreme.
Went to casualty (UK ER) was told that I had torn the meniscus cartilage, and badly stretched the cruciate.
The recovery rate for the surgery is about 50% for a total recovery, not good odds, and as Eric said NOTHING for 6 months, no movement at all. I did not want to walk this road and was offered physiotherapy and electo-therapy (cannot remember exact name).
As long as I strap my knee (not heavy strapping) when I train (only MA training) it is about 90 to 95% recovered.
Yes there is hope but it may take time, I can run without problem and most sports are OK, I just have to be a little more aware of my limitations.
11-11-2000, 03:39 PM
I must completely disagree with Mr. Weil. Sir, if i may be so presumptive, it sounds to me as if you have had a disagreeable personal experience in this area. Personally, i have had my fair share of injuries, so if i am correct regarding your experience, i find your response completely understandable.
As a Physical Therapist, i rehabilitate folks all the time, many of whom have had ACL reconstruction.
The surgery is painful and the rehab is about 6 months (during which you are required to do MANY things) but you should be able to return to the things you love. Martial arts, dwarf tossing, whatever.
There is no such thing as 100% recovery from an injury such as this, that would imply that man's solution is as good as nature's. You will have to be careful what techniques and type of practice you engage in, may even have to wear a brace, but professional athletes have this surgery all the time and return to competition. I daresay their physical demands are greater than ours.
With a lot of hard work, we will all see you back at the dojo. Maybe with some cool scars. Get points with the ladies!
11-11-2000, 05:47 PM
I agree with Jason on this. For my rather long-winded account of my knee injury, check out the Can one survive MA intact? thread in this forum. Among other things, my injury was an MCL, not an ACL. But the damage was very severe.
My GP said I'd be lucky to walk without a limp the rest of my life. The first specialist I went to said about the same thing. Luckily, I got a third opinion ... and found a top-notch sports doc. So be sure to do your homework when getting the surgery and get someone who specializes in athletic orthopedics ... not general orthopedics (IMO).
It's been 8 years since my surgery and I'd say I am at about 95-98% strength and mobility in that knee when I am in top shape and 90% otherwise. And, I've been that way since about 6 months after the incident. I have no problems with my regular practice.
My doc was trained in Atlanta, GA (not all that far from Huntsville, AL). If you are interested, PM me and I'll pass on his name/number. He may be able to refer you to someone in your area.
In the end, good docs can put you back together right. After that, it is up to you to work the rehab program and stay fit to protect the repair.
PS: For what it is worth, I am generally not a surgery advocate. But if you want to stay active, it may be necessary.
[Edited by Doug Daulton on 11-11-2000 at 06:52 PM]
11-12-2000, 11:46 AM
I would just like to say that in chinese medicine I believe surgery is considered very bad and only a last possible resort because when you're cut open vital chi or ki escapes which is difficult to replace. I think it should only be a last resort- have you tried acupuncture, tui na, etc?
11-13-2000, 02:37 AM
I was just trying to picture how the injury happened. Did he "sit" on the leg, pushing it inward and down? Or did you just not sweep the leg far enough, causing a "grapevined entanglement?"
Doesn't matter now, I suppose, but I would have the MRI done immdiately. You will get a nearly 100 per cent diagnosis, but you don't have to rush things, either.
I'm no expert (unless you want pharmacy advice), but yes, you would have to take it easy, no matter which way you go. I would take some time to consider surgery. Western medicine usually says, "knee hurt? Cut."
Yes, I would avoid immediate surgery, as well. Don't count opinions, get lots! This is going to take lots of work on your part, no matter which way you go.
11-13-2000, 08:03 AM
Dec 11th I will be 13 years post op with my left ACL reconstruction. I have had two meniscal tears as well. In fact, it was the second meniscal tear that identified the ACL. I'm no doctor but... without the ACL your femur has a lot of extra mobility, more than it should. This condition is not life threatening. You basically have a "trick" knee that "goes out" on you. Trouble is, it goes out at the most inopportune time and each incident worsens the symptoms, recovery period. The psychology of pain being what it is most people tend to shy away from those activities that they identify with their knee going out. This leads to a loss of interest and participation in the activity.
The first thing I did was contact the local university with a football program and asked who there team physician was and who did the majority of their orthapadics. These guys see a lot of knees and talk to others who do as well. The key to surgery is apparently practice and technique. Keep looking until you find the most experienced doc you can that's within reasonable travel distance and you can afford.
They're doing some ACL reconstructions now arthroscopically. That means no big zipper scars and less rehab.
It's not the end of the world or your MA practice. Learn to love exercises designed to strengthen the quads and hams, like leg extensions and leg curls.
Good Luck and above all maintain a positive attitude toward recovery.
Jeffery Brian Hodges
11-15-2000, 08:55 AM
I would like to thank everyone for their kind responses and encouragement(except Eric, but he studies Bujinkan so I don't listen to him anyway LOL :) seriously though in response to a previous injury on how the injury occured. My student felt the leg sweep coming and in his mind he was trying to be a good uke a little to soon and went down before I actually threw him, anyways, we both ended up going to the ground, and the right knee was pushed inward.
Latest news though is my knee doesn't hurt anymore if I just wrap it tight and go, for the simple reason I'me not worrying to much about the knee because I just recently broke the radius bone in my right forearm in newaza randori because of a cheap, faulty uniform ripping. Talk about dumb luck. I've been training in martial arts since 1979 and just turned 30 years old, never had any injuries before, then have two close together. Maybe I just need to drink more milk :) Anyways, they did surgery on the arm and put a metal forearm plate in and 2 screws, the bones healing now and I just recently got the cast off, still working on getting the wrist flexibilty back. It will be another 4 weeks before I can lift with it again in the gym. Martial arts I think is ok after 4 weeks to, a little concerned though about wristlocks. Anyone with this similar injury to before. Thanks in advance
11-15-2000, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Jeffery Brian Hodges
(except Eric, but he studies Bujinkan so I don't listen to him anyway LOL
LOL, I'll take that as a compliment! :D
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